Next gen cel shading: will games finally look like cartoons/anime?
- Thread starter Canis lupus
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Spring-Loaded
Member
The animation was god-tier, apparently. The art and what was actually happening was pure comedy though.
The problem is that "anime look" basically means "imperfections, low framerate, and deliberate deformation". Meanwhile, the use of cel-shading is to create consistent results, automatically tween, and stay on-model.
You can put a lot of work into detuning cutscenes, but for in-game action it's always going to be more obvious.
The second Naruto game already pretty decently tackled the deformation issue.
Professor Beef
Banned
Oh definitely. I'm sure the team behind that episode normally does great work, but they sure weren't gonna convince me with what I saw in that episode.
Vidya already looks like anime, OP:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1B-g_eQfY_Y
That was animated by Norio Matsumoto; Norio Matsumoto did a lot key animation for Naruto Shippuden 167.
Watch episode 30 of the first season; it's less insane and more "cool".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1B-g_eQfY_Y
That's probably it. Some parts of 167 look similar to this scene in Birdy.
Not the exact moment I'm looking for, but I can't find a .gif of her face getting all fluid in another shot.
That was animated by Norio Matsumoto; Norio Matsumoto did a lot key animation for Naruto Shippuden 167.
Watch episode 30 of the first season; it's less insane and more "cool".
ichtyander
Member
A couple of short CG films, Salesman Pete and Meet Buck are also trying to make a more interesting 3D animation, with irregularities and deformations. They're still really obviously 3D (apart from the obvious 2D parts) but are still looking somewhat nicer than a lot of CG that tries to look 2D.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVIPxd5v6P8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BBPaRWvT18
But yeah, as people have already said, the imperfections and deformations are a large part of 2D animation. Even just lowering the framerate in a CG animation makes the very framerate too perfect and doesn't necessarily help.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVIPxd5v6P8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BBPaRWvT18
But yeah, as people have already said, the imperfections and deformations are a large part of 2D animation. Even just lowering the framerate in a CG animation makes the very framerate too perfect and doesn't necessarily help.
grosvenor_92
Member
Borderlands 3 it's inevitable
Most anime I've seen is just a bunch of people standing around, not doing anything. Barely anything is animated, other than maybe two frames of mouth movement, and maybe their clothes are blowing in the wind. Or maybe they're not even facing the "camera" at all, so it's just their clothes moving. Often they're not even turning their head to look at the character they're talking to.
Then maybe there will be a fight scene, and that's when characters actually move, but even then, sometimes it's just a guy shooting a projectile out of his sword so they don't actually have to show weapons colliding.
That's my problem with a lot of anime, they're not actually animated!
So games have looked a lot better than anime (to me) for a long time. They're pretty much always extended battle sequences, so they're always moving.
Like, that Naruto game looks AMAZING compared to the episodes of the show that I've watched in which nothing happens.
Then maybe there will be a fight scene, and that's when characters actually move, but even then, sometimes it's just a guy shooting a projectile out of his sword so they don't actually have to show weapons colliding.
That's my problem with a lot of anime, they're not actually animated!
So games have looked a lot better than anime (to me) for a long time. They're pretty much always extended battle sequences, so they're always moving.
Like, that Naruto game looks AMAZING compared to the episodes of the show that I've watched in which nothing happens.
I spend hours a week staring at the stuff IVTCing, editing, and occasionally adding frame-by-frame fixes, I'm pretty sure I know how it looks.
And it's because of that that I'm 100% convinced that cel shading, at least as evolutionary steps on what we now know as cel shading, is its own style and will become more rather than less distinct as it's refined.
JordanN
Banned
Polycounts themselves represent a problem.
For example, characters like these cannot be too smooth, but they also can't be too sharp.
You also have to keep the design consistent at 30/60fps.
Basically, no frame is allowed to break the illusion of what is flat or round.
Apocryphon
Member
Poly count isn't really the issue. If you adapted something like Sleeping Dogs and approached the art properly you could create a convincing anime world.
Aliasing and animation are definitely stumbling blocks though. Animating by hand is a long and tedious process but would be key to attaining the right look and feel.
You're also right about the framerate, but I can't imagine people being happy with 23.98fps, particularly if there's any kind of combat in the game.
7.992fps. :lol
Edit: That's another aspect that's impossible to mimic with current rendering systems at all: two moving objects on screen animating on different frames and/or at different rates.
I think aiming for 23.98/24 FPS is overdoing it. For example, that Catherine gif posted at the top of the page looks pretty damn good, and would pass for an anime that was overloaded on post processing and effects.
CamHostage
Member
Yeah, it's no longer a matter of power. The toonshaders used in IDOLMASTER and Naruto and DBZ are (depending on which version of what game) pretty well compensated for matching animated digipaint techniques to re-create cartoons and Japanese anime; hatching and line-thickness emulation also have some really great algorithms to match common usage.
But anime and cartoon drawing isn't a matter of mathematics, it's an artform. Everybody does it differently, and the little imperfections inherent in the process actually add to the beauty. It's not horsepower that we need to get closer, it's design approaches and the time to hand-make all this custom animation.
zero shift
Banned
Its impossible. 3D cell shading can never get that 2D look. Its way you never see cell shaded 3D movies, just traditional 2D drawn was. If the camera is static you may fool the eye, but not when its moving. Professional 3D CGI in 2D featured films is painfully obvious as it is. This isn't a tech thing but an art thing.
This. Remember the Fire Emblem: Awakening cut scenes? Its easy as hell to tell.
This. Remember the Fire Emblem: Awakening cut scenes? Its easy as hell to tell.
Also, the new Atelier game for PS3 looks great:
This looks nuts, wow. Way better than the other examples in the thread. Especially the first image - I know the Atelier series used 2D images for cutscenes like that before, and loooking at these for the first time right now, that first image confused the hell out of me as to whether it was 2D or 3D. That's what we should be aiming for. Of course it'll never be perfect - motion especially is crazy difficult to replicate - but confusing me with stills is a great place to start.
They better have Borderlands 3 next-gen.
Zoramon089
Banned
Stop watching cheaply animated series. If you're watching a series with 100+ eps and expect it to have the quality of a game with probably an hour of animated footage...I don't know what to say to you. There's plenty of series with good animation, at least for certain eps
Sword of the stranger : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xryoNr_qhyI
Seirei no Moribito: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdKiPOkh0K8
There you go!
What if the game was 30 FPS? Or is that too big of a jump?
The one Cowboy Bebop GIF posted with close combat would be too choppy for a game, so 30 FPS (with the game being at 1080p) could strike a good balance.
The ideal goal would be to create a game that is made as a game should be (high frame count, good rendering, lighting) but which is also rendered so that it strongly resembles a 2D work. Just like 2D uses shading and perspective to give the illusion of depth, games can use graphics magic to give the illusion of flatness.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0XssHL6ka4 all CG
like half of PSG is CGPolycounts themselves represent a problem.
For example, characters like these cannot be too smooth, but they also can't be too sharp.
You also have to keep the design consistent at 30/60fps.
Basically, no frame is allowed to break the illusion of what is flat or round.
zero shift
Banned
Well yeah its extremely noticeable.
I'd also point out that much more than half of that video seemed CG.
Not all of it.
JordanLMiller
Member
No, I don't think we'll get there because what's really holding games back from looking like cartoons is the animation. Like some people in this thread have been saying, you get imperfections with drawn animation that just don't happen with cg models. That's the area that really needs work.
Also I think the camera is a big issue as well. Always centering behind the character's back kind of kills the look too.
Also I think the camera is a big issue as well. Always centering behind the character's back kind of kills the look too.
uh, that video I linked has nothing to do with PSG, other than Imaishi being the director of PSG and the director for all the action in BRS (which is all CG)
zero shift
Banned
To me it was.
Well whatever that video was it used a fuckton of CGI.
All of it is CG.
zero shift
Banned
Obviously. I just say it on shitty 480p. The only thing I couldn't fully commit to being CG was the main character. But even then that was mostly due to the crappy resolution I had to watch it in.
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
btw that was the same animator, i think.
I figured out the CG:animation problem, are you guys with me? All you need to do... is create a single flat polygon in front of the camera, then draw a bunch of textures on it.
Bam, perfect 2D simulacrum using currently available rendering technology.
Bam, perfect 2D simulacrum using currently available rendering technology.
zero shift
Banned
Yes. Just look at the shading and the movement of the spider thing. Howe the background pops out and turns awkwardly. Its very easy to see.
This is what South Park does. But at that point is it really 3D anymore?
confirmation bias
That's only one thing. I didn't say it was perfect.
zero shift
Banned
Are you aware of what that word even means? I could tell that the entire thing was CG from the get go. I even pointed out what was given away as CGI. Just because you don't have a good eye for this stuff doesn't mean you should get flustered when people disagree with you.
But I listed multiple things in that post.
You can only tell it's all CG because I told you the second I linked it. The rendering for BRS uses advanced techniques to accurately simulate 2D drawings, mostly centered around the imperfections -- it's not perfect, but it works a lot.
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
Are there any links stating every single frame of animation is 3D? There's a few towards the end that look 2D.
Regardless, I think BRS hides it pretty well for the most part. I think Paperman used similar tech.
ubersticky
Member
Does the new South Park game count? Is it Cell Shading?
Any news on this game?
zero shift
Banned
It looks exactly like every other try to be 2D CG cartoon I've seen. It isn't even the best try to be 2D CG I've seen. Its as I've said before in this thread, even 3D CG in 2D feature films is very noticeable.
Yes it did. It did that pretty well. You can still tell during some parts though.
Fuck that noise, that episode was amazing. I loved the cartoony animation too. I just made sense when you watched the whole thing.
The article Whats That Crazy Drawing, or How I Came To Know and Love Animation Smears and the blog Smears, Multiples and Other Animation Gimmicks must be a good step to try to understand
A couple of short CG films, Salesman Pete and Meet Buck are also trying to make a more interesting 3D animation, with irregularities and deformations. They're still really obviously 3D (apart from the obvious 2D parts) but are still looking somewhat nicer than a lot of CG that tries to look 2D.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVIPxd5v6P8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BBPaRWvT18
Those shorts are glorious !
More games should aim for an art style like this (closer to what TF2 has than "true" cell shading)
Next F-Zero to look like this?
I actually wouldn't mind the next F-Zero to look like this
Actualy redline use cell shading for some vehicles shots... so why not ? xD
gutter_trash
Banned
anime are cartoons, why use a different name to describe it?
it's a French word for animated btw ''animé''
it's a French word for animated btw ''animé''
would love to see cel shading reach this level
That's more to do with animation and dynamic camera angles than cel shading
To be fair, Sword of the Stranger is a movie, and anime movies tend to be the exception since they usually have an actual budget. That clip from Moribito is a fighting scene which I think he more ore less pointed out as an exception some of the time. It's also from Production I.G., one of the better studios.
As far as rank and file anime go, I agree that most of them don't really have much "true" animation at all compared to animation from western countries and that they "cheat" in order to put just enough movement onscreen to make it look like animation. Even big budget films like Akira have done this. It's gotten to the point where on the rare occasion I see an anime that has unusually fluid animation (like some of the scenes from FLAG), it doesn't really look like anime anymore.
Zoramon089
Banned
You realize anime and animé aren't the same words, right?
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