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[Diablohead]

I think the game looked nice, but until we really see gameplay from game cameras and someone playing it with a controller, I can't say much.

A lot of early releases are mixed with smoke and mirrors, no hype from me until someone is really playing it as it's suppose to be played.

 

[saladine1]

If the game looks as good as the trailer, I'll be very impressed. There is absolutely no way the 360 could do these graphics at 720 or 1080 at 60fps, so they're definitely next generation. In terms of game play, well its hard to judge from the trailer. I remember fm2 trailer being very arcady looking, as well as fm3 (with the ford gt flipping). Put it this way, the Xbox one reveal really didn't cater to any hardcore gamer. I didn't expect Microsoft wanting turn 10 to show up with a fm5 trailer catering to hardcore racing fans. It was most likely created to be flashy. In fact, I'm willing to bet that the trailer was made specifically for the Xbox one reveal.....if turn 10 had a showing just for fm5 reveal, the trailer would be very different. I certain Dan and his team will explain everything, at e3.

anyway, was a bit pissed not to see pgr5, but fm5 instead? I'll take that with open arms. Hell, fm5 alone has sold me on Xbox one, even though the console and features aren't very attractive to me.

Yep. Making conclusions with so little to go on is ridiculous by any standard.

I can understand people looking at the trailer and thinking,"This isn't Forza".
But, like I've stated before, their previous showcase tracks(Monsterrat,Bernese Alps) were pretty similar in terms of structure and design. They've probably decided to change things up a bit and showcase something different. In this case, It's Praha which by the way is a wonderful city and a brilliant choice by Turn 10.
A city based track with it's tight straights and turns is a breath of fresh air. Add in the atmosphere that SO MANY PEOPLE have been asking for and you have a winner..at least I think they do.

But yes, FM is track racer at heart so after the dust has settled, I'm hoping to see how far they've come from FM4.

I'm not a graphics whore so these realistic/not realistic arguments don't matter to me. As long as it looks visually appealing and detailed, i'm fine with what they have shown so far.

Physics on the other hand is what i'm interested in. FM4 has an excellent model to begin with so hopefully they have expanded upon that with even more "Newtonian Physics" goodness.

The racing and the career mode. Lacking any real substance in FM4, this is definetely something that needs to be fixed. It'll be very interesting to see what route Turn 10 has taken to address this.

Sound is another thing I can't wait for. FM4 had an amazing sound design. Yes, there were some things that needed to be fixed so i'm hoping that this aspect is also taken care of.

 

[amar212]

FM4 had an amazing sound design..

Uh, no. Just no.

FM4 has a good portrayal of sound of car engine normatively, but sound design and everything that is even distantly close to "amazing sound design" should never be attributed to Forza 4.

But really.

 

[Shaneus]

To get my point across with the colours, here's what I mean:

Honestly, that's all they need to do. I just dialled the colour saturation back in Paint.net (apologies if you can see the JPEG compression, didn't want to shit this thread up with needlessly big images) from 100% to 74% on each one.

 

[Mascot]

I swear the FM4 lighting was more reaslistic. In fact, PGR4 even looked better than this.

I don't get it. This is supposed to be next-gen. What the hell happened?

PGR4's lighting was Godly. Much better than FM3 and FM4 IMO. Far more natural-looking.

Helios, we know you are lurking. Care to dispel some myths and rumours, or are Turn 10 happy to let them fester for three weeks?

 

[drugstore_cowboy]

I reckon PGR 3's lighting was better than 4, the cockpit view looks incredible but it looks strangely dark when not using that camera for some reason.

 

[FunnyBunny]

Game designer over at T10.

All over my face.

Screw the critics. I am very excited about the XBOX ONE and will be there on launch day.

 

[Arucardo]

To get my point across with the colours, here's what I mean:

Honestly, that's all they need to do. I just dialled the colour saturation back in Paint.net (apologies if you can see the JPEG compression, didn't want to shit this thread up with needlessly big images) from 100% to 74% on each one.

You know you could just adjust your TV's saturation settings if it bothers you that much?

 

[Betta Lines]

All over my face.

Screw the critics. I am very excited about the XBOX ONE and will be there on launch day.

The tweet has been removed...

 

[Shaneus]

You know you could just adjust your TV's saturation settings if it bothers you that much?

But then every other game looks under-saturated

 

[FunnyBunny]

The tweet has been removed...

I saw that after my post. Still, I am excited.

I do not understand the concern about the ONE and the (lack) of games. It will have games, people. Lots of them. And I do use my XBOX 360 for a ton of media content. Netflix? Yep. Hulu. You betcha. MLB.tv. Play ball! Expanded media functionality is appealing to me. If I am part of the problem, so be it.

As for Forza? It is my favorite series next the the Arkham games and Turn 10 has delivered for years. There is no way I can say no to Forza 5 at launch. Zero.

 

[saladine1]

Uh, no. Just no.

FM4 has a good portrayal of sound of car engine normatively, but sound design and everything that is even distantly close to "amazing sound design" should never be attributed to Forza 4.

But really.

lol

 

[Arucardo]

But then every other game looks under-saturated

Haha, I guess there's nothing we can do about it then

 

[flyinpiranha]

wouldnt the wheel be able to connect to the usb port in the back?

Maybe with an adapter of some sort but it doesn't work over USB on the 360.

These are my thoughts. I can't imagine them ditching the wheels altogether especially with such a close partnership with the newer Fanatec wheel.

This could be the actual "deal breaker" for me. I'm hoping the PS4 doesn't follow suit. I really want to try Project CARS but their sign up was over by the time I upgraded my PC.

I'm still excited for F5, staying optimistic as these controllers/wheels should be able to be updated to work through a USB connection. This shit wasn't cheap, Forza has become THE franchise I enjoy most on the 360 that is an exclusive so if I can't use the setup, I'm most likely not buying an XBO.

 

[Yoritomo]

Okay, this is getting serious now:

Microsoft: 'Only Xbox One controllers, accessories will work with the new console.'





http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=562049

WHAT ARE YOU SAYING MICROSOFT? WHAT ABOUT OUR FANATEC WHEELS THAT EMULATES X360 CONTROLLER WHEN IN WHEEL MODE?

Somebody needs to ask proper questions on right places ASAP.

Looks like I made the right call, sadly.

 

[derFeef]

Is that a release date?

 

[Megasoum]

Is that a release date?

It's a US company so that would be March 10th.

 

[derFeef]

It's a US company so that would be March 10th.

Ah, dummy me

 

[Mascot]

These are my thoughts. I can't imagine them ditching the wheels altogether especially with such a close partnership with the newer Fanatec wheel.

This could be the actual "deal breaker" for me. I'm hoping the PS4 doesn't follow suit. I really want to try Project CARS but their sign up was over by the time I upgraded my PC.

I'm still excited for F5, staying optimistic as these controllers/wheels should be able to be updated to work through a USB connection. This shit wasn't cheap, Forza has become THE franchise I enjoy most on the 360 that is an exclusive so if I can't use the setup, I'm most likely not buying an XBO.

Yep, it's a definite deal-breaker, and something else to add to the list when deciding which console to go for (along with Digital Foundry's report today about the PS4 GPU being 50% more powerful than the XBO's..!). I hope a wireless solution can be found, as my PS3 is connected by USB to the wheel at the moment. Swapping cables every time would be a faff. (I know I can buy a wireless dongle for the PS3 but I think they are about £30 or something ridiculous).

 

[Metalmurphy]

lol

I don't get it

 

[sneaky77]

Yep, it's a definite deal-breaker, and something else to add to the list when deciding which console to go for (along with Digital Foundry's report today about the PS4 GPU being 50% more powerful than the XBO's..!). I hope a wireless solution can be found, as my PS3 is connected by USB to the wheel at the moment. Swapping cables every time would be a faff. (I know I can buy a wireless dongle for the PS3 but I think they are about £30 or something ridiculous).

yeah if I can connect the wheel via usb to the ps4 but not to the xb-one.. that would be a nice incentive.. right now the waters are too mudded with the reaction and the lack of knowledge for me as to what both companies are doing, and as much as I love forza.. I am leaning towards ps4 at this time

 

[SarBear]

They've quite a few technical details to get right this iteration to have me remain on board. Trust me, I really want to stick around with Forza. Easily has the most complete package of a console racer. Visuals aside (because we all know the visuals will look great), there's just so many nuances that Turn10 needs to pay attention to and implement. Saladine, on top of being the world's second biggest MUSTANG fan, can attest to that.

I'm really hoping Turn10 listens to the community this time around and, in return, we'll completely forgive Forza Horizon from their record. Seriously, won't even mention it.

 

[mrklaw]

These are my thoughts. I can't imagine them ditching the wheels altogether especially with such a close partnership with the newer Fanatec wheel.

This could be the actual "deal breaker" for me. I'm hoping the PS4 doesn't follow suit. I really want to try Project CARS but their sign up was over by the time I upgraded my PC.

I'm still excited for F5, staying optimistic as these controllers/wheels should be able to be updated to work through a USB connection. This shit wasn't cheap, Forza has become THE franchise I enjoy most on the 360 that is an exclusive so if I can't use the setup, I'm most likely not buying an XBO.

MS isn't changing anything - they were proprietary before and they are proprietary again.

Sony were relatively open before, so hopefully they will be again

 

[Megasoum]

MS isn't changing anything - they were proprietary before and they are proprietary again.

Sony were relatively open before, so hopefully they will be again

They already said that they are using a brand new protocol to connect the accessories so you can bet that the wireless in the Fanatec wheels won't work... So, unless Fanatec can make a firmware upgrade that will make the usb connection work with the new console I doubt any of the old wheels will work.

 

[amar212]

These are my thoughts. I can't imagine them ditching the wheels altogether especially with such a close partnership with the newer Fanatec wheel.

Well, I really do not know where to put this because at this point there are 3 different threads discussing this subject: this thread, original thread about X360 devices not being compatible with XBOne and Eso also made some remarks in PGR thread.

I spent some time today in collecting various information and this is the most probable final conclusion: this generation Fanatec wheels that were X360 compatible/licensed (PWTS/GT2/CSR/CSR Elite) will almost certainly not work with any game on XBOne.

And here is why (all quotes from the GTPlanet official Fanatec thread):

None of Fanatec's current XBOX 360 compatible wheels will work with the next XBOX ONE wirelessly. With the 360 the wireless connection is RF based while the ONE the controllers connect via Wi-Fi Direct......hence why Microsoft stated months ago that current Xbox controllers will not work with the new machine.

So unless the XBOX ONE will allow a USB peripheral connection for the wheel to work (fat chance) we'll all be at Fantaec's mercy to offer some kind of upgrade board to get our CSRs and Elites to work with it.

I really do not see any significant possibility for Microsoft to switch to USB/HID protocol.

Without XID (Xinput) they can't control licensing the hardware/SDK for third-party manufacturers. And that is the only reason why they never included USB/HID controller-unit on their consoles. And because of that we have to pay premium price for our wheels (Microsoft demande money for every XB-licensed third-party device and wheels need additional hardware inside to be XID/Xinput/XB compatible).

And they love the sweet money they get from licensing.

And if they opted for latest Xinput 1.4 for XBOne, thing is done, because Xinput 1.4 can't recognize any "backward compatibility device" as something else then "GAMEPAD" while wheels needs to be recognized as "XINPUT_DEVSUBTYPE_WHEEL" in order to properly work.

More here (you have to click through other links there to get to all information): http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh405051(v=vs.85).aspx

With the xbox now being announced maybe Fanatec are free to update everyone on the future of there elite wheels. Where they just a one game wheel or will they be updated?

I know about 4 Fanatec models that are X360 compatible:

PWTS / GT2 / CSR / CSR Elite

All of them share some dedicated Microsoft hardware/software inside that allows them to use XID/Xinput SDK for emulating X360 controller as "XINPUT_DEVSUBTYPE_WHEEL" device and all of them have proprietary hardware/software that allows them to communicate to X360 via RF standard.

If all we know so far is true - and if my limited technical knowledge is correct - there is no "simple" update to this solution. I may be wrong, so please that more knowledgeable correct me on this - but there are 3 real pre-requsities for current-gen Fanatec wheels to potentially work on XBO:

1) there would have to be new hardware inside that would allow wheels to pair with XO under new SDK standards
2) there would have to be separate hardware add-on that would allow wheels to transmit Wi-Fi Direct signal instead of current RF transmitter (how would it work? where would it be plugged?)
3) there would have be major "firmware update" to wheels itself to enable all above to work with XO

Of course, such updating the hardware and then firmware would make that wheel unusable on X360. Even if hardware would be removable somehow and old-hardware would be left intact, we would have to update the firmware to each version once we switch the platforms.

Solution for above is no simple solution by any mean. And I certainly will blame Microsoft if old wheels will not work. And yes, I would so love to be completely wrong on all this.

Will XID not work over USB?

I *could* - but then complete game API and engine should be changed because programming the wheel support in game engine is completely different for HID (*normal* FFB wheels) and XID (Xinput, "Xbox" wheels).

Also, in order to perform Xinput authentication via USB, every Fanatec wheel should have to have something vaguely called "Microsoft USB authentication chip". That is piece of hardware that all USB-X360 controllers have to have in order to be paired with X360 via USB and I have no idea does Fanatec models have that chip in their current state of hardware, but I will presume no. If they did, we would all probably be using USB mode on the wheels with HID-feedback, not XID.

So, if they do not have it, add that chip to the list of pre-requsites above.

And again, I would so love to be completely wrong on all this.

The Infineon module in the Fanatec wheels that are compatible with the current xbox are soldered to the board on the wheels I have seen. As well, Fanatec does not have control of the firmware on those modules. They are encrypted and proprietary Infineon components. Unless the new xbox is backwards compatible, they will not work.

This however has basically been known for quite some time. The unknown was whether or not the new xbox would be backwards compatible, which I personally always found very unlikely. The reasons are not only to make money either... Having hardware standards for something like this can make game and hardware development much simpler in the long run. What if the new controller has an extra button or one less button, or some gyro thing, etc.

Anyhow, that's about all I know on the subject, well... Almost.

Well, is the new Xbox officially not backwards compatible? That I don't know, I haven't been following well on that front. If it is not, then again, the electronics in the wheels would need to be replaced to be compatible... Based on the knowledge I currently have.

Now only time will tell. But it seems wheels have also become a "generation" thing on Xbox.

 

[Snubbers]

I spent some time today in collecting various information and this is the most probable final conclusion: this generation Fanatec wheels that were X360 compatible/licensed (PWTS/GT2/CSR/CSR Elite) will almost certainly not work with any game on XBOne.

Just think outside the box..

If the Xbox One still uses XID without too many fundamental changes, then Fanatec have some possibility of creating a wifi-direct module for their current wheels..
Thinking outside of the box, that could be a Wifi Direct USB dongle that plugs into the USB B socket..

It's also technically possible to convert XID to HID, it's not a simple conversion, and it requires something with processing power to de-construct XID commands into sequenced HID commands.. These things aren't rocket science..

It's all a commercial and licencing decision IMO..

Hell, it's even possible for MS to build in XID to HID conversion in the xbox itself..

 

[Megasoum]

Just think outside the box..

If the Xbox One still uses XID without too many fundamental changes, then Fanatec have some possibility of creating a wifi-direct module for their current wheels..
Thinking outside of the box, that could be a Wifi Direct USB dongle that plugs into the USB B socket..

It's also technically possible to convert XID to HID, it's not a simple conversion, and it requires something with processing power to de-construct XID commands into sequenced HID commands.. These things aren't rocket science..

It's all a commercial and licencing decision IMO..

Hell, it's even possible for MS to build in XID to HID conversion in the xbox itself..

I wonder if it's possible to do something like that with an Arduino... Could provide a cheap solution.

 

[sneaky77]

I figured the wireless wouldnt work.. but why wouldnt a regular usb connection work.. oh well, hopefully Sony still allows it since the Fanatec worked usb on ps3 is that correct?

 

[Slayer-33]

Can't wait to see more at E3

 

[Megasoum]

I figured the wireless wouldnt work.. but why wouldnt a regular usb connection work.. oh well, hopefully Sony still allows it since the Fanatec worked usb on ps3 is that correct?

Well USB doesn't work right now with 360, only wireless so they would have to, at least, update the firmware to allow USB connection.

 

[Mascot]

*stuff*

I'll say it again, if my Fanatec wheel cannot be made to work with the XBOne then there is NO FUCKING WAY I will buy Microsoft's new console. I'm already leaning away from it for a whole list of reasons but FM5 could have been their saviour IF it turns out to be the game that we all hope it will be.

The thought of abandoning FM5 on next-gen hardware is frankly depressing, but a line has to be drawn somewhere. I'm fed up of getting wallet-raped at every fucking turn.

Christ, just over a day ago I was so hyped for the Nextbox reveal - I was like a little kid on Christmas Eve. In the short space of 24 hours Microsoft have managed to systematically destroy all of my enthusiasm with their misguided bullshit and arrogance. I struggle to think of a single redeeming feature of this new console. A single one.

 

[Snubbers]

I wonder if it's possible to do something like that with an Arduino... Could provide a cheap solution.

The issue is how to get hold of the XID stream.. MS would have to licence you to do this and you'd have to buy the authentication IC (assuming a similar scheme to today)..

Fundamentally you can look at the XCM-F1 as inspiration.. that uses a regular controller to do the authentication, and intercepts the XID protocol, which it converts to HID for wheels.. But you are screwed because the console thinks a controller is connected, and the game doesn't issue any proper wheel FFB XID commands..

I'll say it again, if my Fanatec wheel cannot be made to work with the XBOne then there is NO FUCKING WAY I will buy Microsoft's new console. I'm already leaning away from it for a whole list of reasons but FM5 could have been their saviour IF it turns out to be the game that we all hope it will be.

The thought of abandoning FM5 on next-gen hardware is frankly depressing, but a line has to be drawn somewhere. I'm fed up of getting wallet-raped at every fucking turn.

Christ, just over a day ago I was so hyped for the Nextbox reveal - I was like a little kid on Christmas Eve. In the short space of 24 hours Microsoft have managed to systematically destroy all of my enthusiasm with their misguided bullshit and arrogance. I struggle to think of a single redeeming feature of this new console. A single one.

I'm a CSR and PWTS owner, so I'm also quite dismayed at what is most likely to be non backwards compatibility with the wheels.. and there is no way in hell I am waiting for a new fanatec wheel (ignoring the expense) and playing with a controller..

I figured the wireless wouldnt work.. but why wouldnt a regular usb connection work.. oh well, hopefully Sony still allows it since the Fanatec worked usb on ps3 is that correct?

Technically, MS could easily allow HID wheels on the 360 and Xbox One via USB.. like most things, a small background app with miniscule resources would be required to convert/sequence XID commands to a HID command stream, but it's 'feasible'..

 

[flyinpiranha]

Well, I really do not know where to put this because at this point there are 3 different threads discussing this subject: this thread, .

This does make sense. I remember having the lowball Porsche Fanatec wheel for PS3 and thinking about that XID/HID adapter but read bad things about it. I opted for the GT2 with CS Pedals.

Now to find out that it probably won't even work? Yeah, I'm hoping they don't alienate people who spent $600+ on these rigs (and that's just my lowball for wheel, stand, and pedals, and some other cabling stuff - I'm sure others have way more invested).

Just think outside the box..

If the Xbox One still uses XID without too many fundamental changes, then Fanatec have some possibility of creating a wifi-direct module for their current wheels..
Thinking outside of the box, that could be a Wifi Direct USB dongle that plugs into the USB B socket..

It's also technically possible to convert XID to HID, it's not a simple conversion, and it requires something with processing power to de-construct XID commands into sequenced HID commands.. These things aren't rocket science..

It's all a commercial and licencing decision IMO..

Hell, it's even possible for MS to build in XID to HID conversion in the xbox itself..

This is what I'm hoping.

It sucks, GT6 being on PS3 and now Forza 5 not being compatible with my wheel and that's not even including the rest of the 'news' about the XBO ... Hopefully PS4 is compatible with it and Driveclub is worth it.

I just upgraded my PC a few months ago and wasn't really interested in Project CARS but that might be where my foreseeable future may be.

 

[Mascot]

What's the betting MS have their own new FFB planned for FM5's release? It would be a ridiculous situation if the new console launches with a flagship racing sim but no way to play it with a wheel. MS would be a laughing stock.

 

[Big Takeover]

I'm not going to be shocked if they decide to allow HID over USB. XID and wheels have just been a giant clusterfuck this gen. You're telling me Beardo's just going to watch that all unfold again? He seems closer than ever to the core, and this is a big-time issue for his games.

 

[Mascot]

I'm not going to be shocked if they decide to allow HID over USB. XID and wheels have just been a giant clusterfuck this gen. You're telling me Beardo's just going to watch that all unfold again? He seems closer than ever to the core, and this a big-time issue for his games.

Let's hope Turn 10 recognise the issue and can exert some influence.

Helios, are you there?

 

[Dzidza1978]

This is the answer I got for asking wheather Fanatec wheels will work with F5:
@XboxSupport1
@Dzidza1978 To ensure a consistent experience to all users, only controllers and accessories designed for Xbox One will work w/ Xbox One^EM

So we have invested our money only for x360. MS is really pushing us towards ps4 only. Only reason why I bought x360 was Forza. Thank you MS it was nice while it lasted.

 

[saladine1]

Yep, not being able to have the full experience sort of defeats the purpose of the game.
A sim based racing game is meant to be played with a wheel. Plain and simple really.
Even if MS do offer the one and only steering wheel for the Xbox One, I will not get it. I've payed for my shit already, not doing it again.

And, i'd like to say, it would behoove Turn 10 not to release any kind of media and information pertaining to the game UNTIL this issue is resolved. I'm talking ASAP.
MS are already in the deep end regarding EVERYTHING really, so no need to drag it on. Either tell us the truth now, so we can accept it and move on, or keep us in the dark and prepare for a massive backlash from an infuriated community..

 

[Mascot]

Just think outside the box..

If the Xbox One still uses XID without too many fundamental changes, then Fanatec have some possibility of creating a wifi-direct module for their current wheels..
Thinking outside of the box, that could be a Wifi Direct USB dongle that plugs into the USB B socket..

It's also technically possible to convert XID to HID, it's not a simple conversion, and it requires something with processing power to de-construct XID commands into sequenced HID commands.. These things aren't rocket science..

It's all a commercial and licencing decision IMO..

Hell, it's even possible for MS to build in XID to HID conversion in the xbox itself..

All this XID-HID conversion talk is interesting and opens up possibilities, but won't it generate input lag, however slight?

 

[ShowDog]

Microsoft has always disappointed me with their accessories policy, and it seems like it's going to bite Forza fans in the ass. I have an old Driving Force 2 that is still perfectly fine for PC, PS2, PS3 and I imagine PS4. I went 360 last generation and had to play an entire generation of racing games sans wheel because I refuse to waste excess money to arbitrarily replace things that work fine. Same goes for arcade sticks.

They can fuck off with the Xbox One, I'm not going through this shit again.

 

[Megasoum]

This is the answer I got for asking wheather Fanatec wheels will work with F5:
@XboxSupport1
@Dzidza1978 To ensure a consistent experience to all users, only controllers and accessories designed for Xbox One will work w/ Xbox One^EM

So we have invested our money only for x360. MS is really pushing us towards ps4 only. Only reason why I bought x360 was Forza. Thank you MS it was nice while it lasted.

To be fair it was never advertised as "future proof"...If you bought a clearly marked 360 wheel thinking it would automatically be supported by any future consoles then it's your fault... Sure it sucks and I would love for my CSR to work with the new one but I knew when I bought it that it wouldn't necessarly work with the next console.

 

[Snubbers]

All this XID-HID conversion talk is interesting and opens up possibilities, but won't it generate input lag, however slight?

If it was done on the Xbox, it would be truly negligible since it would just be a software wrapper around XID..

If you did it via some WiFi Direct dongle plugged into the wheel, it's not as small, but it's still going to be very low indeed, you are talking closed embedded platforms, so they can have microscopic protocol stacks, I'd be aiming for around the 1ms or less kind of mark between receiving the XID over WiFi Direct and starting a HID sequence..

The normal latency from authentication, audio channels and other 'stuff' being sent over the same link would be magnitudes higher, but that's accepted by everyone..

 

[amar212]

Technically, MS could easily allow HID wheels on the 360 and Xbox One via USB.. like most things, a small background app with miniscule resources would be required to convert/sequence XID commands to a HID command stream, but it's 'feasible'..

Technically, they could not.

This is pre-historic post from Logitech forums, back in the day when many of HID-wheel users were crazy because they can't use their Logitech USB wheels on X360.

Those are responses from 2 Logitech engineers who were moderated the Logitech forums backthen in 2008 (in chronological order during discussion):

The game and platform (PC, XBOX, PS2, etc..) must support the control device, not the other way around. Our current wheels are standard HID controllers. If the game and platform offer this support, the wheel will work.

if Logitech were licensed to make a force feedback wheel for Xbox 360, there are significant technical limitations which prevent these wheels from functioning on on Xbox 360. The Xbox 360 features controller and force feedback architectures (XID, device-based force feedback playback) that are significantly different from the way our wheels work on PC, PS2, or PS3 (HID, host-based force feedback playback). It is not possible to enable Xbox 360 functionality with a software or firmware update.

...If it were a licensed product, it would need to have significant microprocessor, firmware, and PCB layout changes in order for it to work with Microsoft's force feedback scheme for Xbox 360. The way force feedback works on Xbox 360 is extremely different from the Windows method, and the electronics in our current products cannot support it.

All this points to that how it is not matter of "a small background app with miniscule resources would be required to convert/sequence XID commands to a HID command stream", unfortunately. I would really love it ends like that but all info we gathered points another way.

Also, as I pointed out in many occasions on this matter already, reading through official Microsfot Developers Center Database on Xinput problematics sheds great light about how Xinput (and XID) works within MS environment and apparently it will continue to do so with XBOne.

And as you pointed out yourself, devices and solutions such as XCM-F1 does not solve anything. In order to get force feedback wheel to work, console must recognize it as "XINPUT_DEVSUBTYPE_WHEEL". Without that recognition, there is no 900-mode, force feedback effects and rumble.

And to add recent GTP post by Basher, he says this:

Well, to my knowledge, wheel FFB is only allowed over wireless on the current xbox. I can't see them changing that unless an exception of some sort is made.

..which pretty much explains that USB access to X360 is locked deliberately by MS.

And of course, what Dzidza quoted above as answer he got from Microsoft as final confirmation.

Yeah, I also call Helios to shed some light, hopefully some nice IBL.

 

[sneaky77]

To be fair it was never advertised as "future proof"...If you bought a clearly marked 360 wheel thinking it would automatically be supported by any future consoles then it's your fault... Sure it sucks and I would love for my CSR to work with the new one but I knew when I bought it that it wouldn't necessarly work with the next console.

Sure.. but these wheels work on usb ports on the ps3.. so why couldn't Microsoft allow that on theirs? I agree is their prerogative, just like is mine to tell them to stuff it and go to Sony.

 

[Ninja Moomin]

All over my face.

Screw the critics. I am very excited about the XBOX ONE and will be there on launch day.

see you there

 

[Mascot]

Microsoft really aren't winning many new fans lately, are they?

Why change the control protocols? What was wrong with the 360 versions? Was it just so they could lock down existing controllers and stop them working on this new fucking idiot set-top box that nobody even seems to want anyway?

Anger rising.

 

[derFeef]

Does that mean my fighting stick will also not work? Good show.

 

[Snubbers]

Technically, they could not.

Technically, they can.. believe me.

This is pre-historic post from Logitech forums, back in the day when many of HID-wheel users were crazy because they can't use their Logitech USB wheels on X360.

Those are responses from 2 Logitech engineers who were moderated the Logitech forums backthen in 2008 (in chronological order during discussion):

They are quite weak excuses, and the fact fanatec managed it (albeit using MS supplied XID decoders) just shows that it can be done. The only serious R&D would be in working out good XID->HID Sequence translations, but again, it's a very limited system with few actuators, if an engineer tells you that's difficult, they really should look at what lots of embedded systems do in other industries which make this kind of task look trivial by comparison.

All this points to that how it is not matter of "a small background app with miniscule resources would be required to convert/sequence XID commands to a HID command stream", unfortunately. I would really love it ends like that but all info we gathered points another way.

No it does not point to your conclusion. For starters Logitech's main gripe was two fold, a hardware respin which isn't needed with a software conversion at source, and the protocol difference, which quite frankly MS who already produced one FFB wheel and sold boards to fanatec which have to decode XID into an sequence of analog outputs, have quite a headstart on things.

Also, as I pointed out in many occasions on this matter already, reading through official Microsfot Developers Center Database on Xinput problematics sheds great light about how Xinput (and XID) works within MS environment and apparently it will continue to do so with XBOne.

That doesn't really add to the conversation, there is still nothing remotely technical that stops XID to HID conversion..

And as you pointed out yourself, devices and solutions such as XCM-F1 does not solve anything. In order to get force feedback wheel to work, console must recognize it as "XINPUT_DEVSUBTYPE_WHEEL". Without that recognition, there is no 900-mode, force feedback effects and rumble.

Again, this doesn't add much, they could have made an MS Wheel version where you plugged in an MS Wheel, and your HID Wheel, and they'd have all the XID data to then create the equivalent HID sequences..

And to add recent GTP post by Basher, he says this:



..which pretty much explains that USB access to X360 is locked deliberately by MS.

And of course, what Dzidza quoted above as answer he got from Microsoft as final confirmation.

That's not a technical limitation, that's commercial, which I fully acknowledge and support as being the real reason..

Maybe it's lost in translation, I'm tallking about actual technical engineering reasons.. not commercial reasons where they want a closed platform, or they can't make a business case for the relatively small amount of return from it.

 

[flyinpiranha]

To be fair it was never advertised as "future proof"...If you bought a clearly marked 360 wheel thinking it would automatically be supported by any future consoles then it's your fault... Sure it sucks and I would love for my CSR to work with the new one but I knew when I bought it that it wouldn't necessarly work with the next console.

I understand completely. I just hope MS understands a person that has spent literally $1000's of dollars on them this generation will spend exactly $0 on them next generation if I can't use my wheel setup for my favorite exclusive franchise they have. I liked Gears, I liked Halo, but I played more Forza than any of their other exclusives.

And I'm sorry to drive this thread into (somewhat) off topic territory, but honestly, I'm not even as hardcore as a majority of the others, I can only imagine their feelings having spent more than I have with their setups.

 

[Mascot]

Does that mean my fighting stick will also not work? Good show.

Nope. Won't work. But don't worry, I'm sure MS will sell you a new one.