MikeXXIeaf
Banned
>You want to play/own a game in full.
>Only way to own game is to buy it.
>Buying it puts money in the devs hands.
>Pirating does not.
What part don't you understand?
So why does piracy and used games NOT hurt devs?
- Thread starter sn00zer
- Start date
>Only way to own game is to buy it.
>Buying it puts money in the devs hands.
>Pirating does not.
What part don't you understand?
Beermeister
Banned
Let's ban used cars... and used houses and...
Pureauthor
Member
The part where 'Not putting money into devs hands' becomes the same thing as 'taking money from the devs hands'.
Let's do this, poor car makers don't have any other source of income
They deserve the money every single time someone decides to sell their car.Better yet, cars should only work for as long as the car makers want.
MikeXXIeaf
Banned
Once the game is on your HDD or whatever then yes, you're now in ownership of a game you did not pay for which is essentially the same as taking money away from the dev.
I know you're some kind of an adult and can recognize when you're splitting hairs. Stop that.
KojiKnight
Member
Manmademan
Member
Your argument sucks.
How about the part where consumers want to own something, but it's out of their price range so they go and buy something else instead?
I want to own a ferarri. The only way to own a ferarri is to buy one. With no used model I can't afford it, so I go and buy a boat instead. Ferrari is out of luck and still doesn't make a sale.
Under the used model, I can buy a ferarri at a lower cost from a dealer, a year or so old. That ferrari purchase means I buy parts and service from ferrari for as long as I own the car (think of these as DLC purchases, in a software sense). In addition, the owner who sold the used ferarri to the dealer in the first place got credit or cash towards a new ferrari, which he uses to buy another new ferarri that the manufacturer gets credit for.
This is literally how it works.
MikeXXIeaf
Banned
Again, splitting hairs. The fact you even have to rationalize not paying for a game when you're an avid gamer is pathetic, I'm sorry.
Pureauthor
Member
And if I wasn't going to pay for the game regardless (AKA, if piracy is not an option, a sale would still not be made), where did the pile of money go off to?
And no, it's not splitting hairs. The distinction is pretty important when arguing about how much piracy hurts the game devs as opposed to how much it does not benefit them.
SomethingInTheSea
Member
I find people arguing against used games sales really weird to be honest, do motor manufacturers argue that used car sales damage the market? No, they are important revenue sources for distributors and help support the primary market by allowing the value of the existing product to be used towards a new purchase.
If used games are banned, the market won't grow, it will shrink.
If used games are banned, the market won't grow, it will shrink.
MikeXXIeaf
Banned
Are you that deluded? This argument is terrible.
If you went to a chop shop and bought the same model of car instead of legitimately paying a dealership then that's equally as wrong.
MikeXXIeaf
Banned
You're bringing in if-ands-buts into the scenario. No one can know for sure whether or not you planned to buy that game your pirated, only you do. It's worthless to even bring up that dynamic in the discussion.
Pureauthor
Member
So we cannot know if the pirate in question was ever going to buy the game regardless but we can know that his pirating the game actively hurt the developer? How do we know that?
GlamFM
Banned
MikeXXIeaf
Banned
Oh lord, just stop it. I don't even mean to get snarky with you but you're literally forcing us both to chase our tails around. I believe we made our points.
Indeed. Good observation.
The problem many studios have is that they don't care about the player. They
build games in a fire-and-forget fashion. After release they almost always
never care about the player. Those studios consider the game as the main
value, not the player. And this is where the problem is. You have to build
a relation with the player, a platform. You have to put value into the
relation with the player, not into the game.
About pirates.
Pirates are players who don't yet have a relationship with you, with your
studio, with your game, with your platform. And it's the job of the studio to
turn them into followers. But how if all the games are build on a one-shot
mentality? That's not going to work, esp. not in the future.
If you care about the player, a pirate may perhaps buy one of your next games.
In the meantime a pirate does free advertising for you, for your studio in
telling others about your games, games (s)he pirated, games others may
likely buy from you.
It's the relation to the player what makes them buy your games. A pirate can
never hurt a studio, since games do have no value, but the relationship to the
player has. And that's how you sell the game(s).
This video focuses more on the music and movie business, but the thought process is similar:
http://www.ted.com/talks/rob_reid_the_8_billion_ipod.html
http://www.ted.com/talks/rob_reid_the_8_billion_ipod.html
I feel like pirating and used games both help indirectly but also harm devs. As wrong as pirating can be, it helped me get into series from way back and made me purchase any of their sequels along the way, but this doesn't apply for everyone. Like other have said, not everyone has the intention of buying things in the future. Used games I can see hurting devs, but removing it is too anti-consumer though. A lot of games do get cycled around through gamestop which means people are going to go for a cheaper used copy and there's no reason for gamestop to restock new copies of the game. The bright side about used games is it'll be easier to find those hard to find games where they never made a ton of.
I agree with that. If they could make the same amount of profit through new games, they definitely would primarily stick to that.
I'm pretty sure GS hates taking certain things because of the risk in faulty games and consoles. Leading them to run into all sorts of problems they need to solve for the customers to be happy.
I'm so tired of the "1 pirated game does not equal 1 lost sale" argument. It's a useless assertion (how many pirated games DOES equal lost revenue?) that I fear is becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy.
If tommorow game theft magically became 100% impossible I'm of the opinion that A LOT of current pirates would start paying for A LOT of games that they would otherwise steal.
If tommorow game theft magically became 100% impossible I'm of the opinion that A LOT of current pirates would start paying for A LOT of games that they would otherwise steal.
No
KojiKnight
Member
This made me chuckle a bit more than it should....
Jet: That's the thing though... we don't know, but we can say with pretty much certainty that it's not 1:1... so developers claiming these huge losses are exaggerating at best, and being misleading at worst.
It's not a justification for it, but it's also not a justification for DRM either.
ricardo_sousa11
Member
Have you thought that some of those people, Pirate for a number a reasons, and some beyond their control ?!
In Brazil the game taxing is extremelly high, In germany tons of games are banned etc..Some people Pirate a game because they have NO MONEY, or because its not even acessible to them.
MotionBlue
Member
Entire premise relies on the idea that a pirated or used copy sold is a new copy that wasn't sold.
A premise with no evidence at all to back it up.
A premise with no evidence at all to back it up.
Pancakes R Us
Member
I agree with the piracy part, but with the used game argument, doesn't ANYTHING sold in a used condition 'hurt' the creator? What a silly argument. With this kind of thinking, you may as well not have car boot sales, eBay or anything similar to allow us to sell ANY items as 'used', because money isn't going straight to the source. What is it about gaming that allows developers to feel this entitled compared to any other industry?
What a joke.
..and a ton of people would stop playing games altogether. See! I can post baseless arguments too!
ricardo_sousa11
Member
Also, I dont get the hate for Gamestop, In Portugal (to my knowledge) there are no Gamestop, nor anystore that is worth selling our games to. All our used games are sold/traded to other gamers.
Wow. Yeah. I've been trying to say the same thing, but this is much better said. So true. Used games and piracy aren't the problem. They're scapegoats for a much more systemic failure, most of which has been self-created by the publishing side of the industry. I find it inexcusable when I see publishers blaming consumers for their financial woes, but I find it outright distasteful when I see developers towing the same line. I would hope that developers would be on our side and not fall victim to the BS that the suits use to encroach on consumer rights.
MikeXXIeaf
Banned
Oh but I wasn't going to buy the game anyway so it's okay, don't you see?
I mean I should be allowed to reprint thousands of fake bills seeing as I was never going to actually acquire said currency to begin with.
Goldenroad
Member
That makes no sense. If they weren't going to buy it then why the hell are they playing it?
Piracy and used games do hurt devs. The problem is that devs need to accept that they really can't stop either without pissing off the people who do buy their games. Pirates are going to crack the DRM of almost any game at near-launch. DRM for the most part affects legitimate users, so if a pirated version of a game is better at being run than the commercial release, that just gives pirates the better product for a cheaper price in the eyes of consumers.
To prevent used physical games, you need DRM which prevents the game from running on a different system and thus inconveniences the legitimate user who will not be happy. It isn't impossible to make DRM appealing, but in regards to gaming, only Valve with Steam has been successful with that by understanding that providing better convenience and reasonable prices are going to convince even pirates to part with their hard-earned cash. This is the lesson that Apple knows, that Google knows, and that Amazon knows, and that is why they have successful digital services.
To prevent used physical games, you need DRM which prevents the game from running on a different system and thus inconveniences the legitimate user who will not be happy. It isn't impossible to make DRM appealing, but in regards to gaming, only Valve with Steam has been successful with that by understanding that providing better convenience and reasonable prices are going to convince even pirates to part with their hard-earned cash. This is the lesson that Apple knows, that Google knows, and that Amazon knows, and that is why they have successful digital services.
Because it just happened to be free. It's as simple as that.
I try some games for free now and then (actual free games like Steam's free weekends, not piracy) but I wouldn't have ever bothered buying them.
I think lots of people don't understand that most pirates are not teh hardc0re gamers that need to have every game because they enjoy this hobby so goddamn much. These people usually only have passing interest in gaming because it's a time waster to them. They'd jump at the next free opportunity to have fun in a heartbeat.
Warm Machine
Member
I don't know about that. The 360 was offering digital games for sale on day one of release. The 360 also opened up development and release to anyone on their console via XNA. In many ways MS was at the right place at the right time with the right ideas. Not all of them they leveraged as they should have but they were doing it.
Don't compare used games to piracy. Pirates NEVER make a dime for anybody, well only the pirate market sellers. Used games? Many gamers sell their games and use the money to buy more games, so in the end the money some gamers aren't spending on new games is finding its way into the developers/publishers' pockets anyway.
Used games market also helps drive new game prices down faster, this may not seem like a good point for publishers but if they don't want people selling their games a few days after they bought them, make better games! it keeps developers on their toes and sends a clear message: competition is tough, you want us to buy full-price? then make a game that is worth it.
Used games market also helps drive new game prices down faster, this may not seem like a good point for publishers but if they don't want people selling their games a few days after they bought them, make better games! it keeps developers on their toes and sends a clear message: competition is tough, you want us to buy full-price? then make a game that is worth it.
Portugeezer
Member
I don't believe that for a second. If most consoles were easily hacked and with no online problems, I bet there would be a shitload more piracy from people who would normally buy games.
Since 2006, I've only paid the standard price of $60 entirely out of pocket a grand total of two times. In order to really be able to afford keeping up with the past two generations of games, I've had to depend on being able to trade in games and use that credit towards either new copies of games that have just come out or used/sale/rental copies a few months after the fact.
Sure, sometimes I don't directly give money to the publisher, but the existence of used games have basically driven almost all of my day 1 purchases for the past 7 years because they've given me the funding to do as much as I have been.
Sure, sometimes I don't directly give money to the publisher, but the existence of used games have basically driven almost all of my day 1 purchases for the past 7 years because they've given me the funding to do as much as I have been.
MikeXXIeaf
Banned
Rationalizing it at all means a part of you thinks it's okay. I'm here to tell you outright that it's not. This moral ambiguity amongst gamers and piracy has to stop before a real solution (if any) can be achieved.
Logicallity.
It's free, the value equation has changed.
$60 + time != worth it.
$0 + time = worth it.
ShinobiFist
Banned
No it doesn't. Their horrible management and budget handling is their problem. Not lending, renting, piracy or buying used.
Winterfang
Banned
I though Piracy/Used games hurt Publishers. Developers already get paid to make the games.
MikeXXIeaf
Banned
I'll just say there needs to be a consensus that it's wrong. Sure you may see every side of the spectrum at all times but that doesn't mean everybody does. There are literally individuals in here saying that they should be allowed to pirate for reasons I'm expected to sympathize with. Well I'm sorry, as well educated and adjusted as they might be I don't sympathize with the act. Any percentage of individuals thinking it's alright is holding us back from an actual solution.
Goldenroad
Member
I think our definitions of "free" differ. Is someone is charging money for it it's not free.