Forgot about this. Everyone watch this too.
Critical Analysis - MGS2
- Thread starter Revan
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The RaDaMaNt
Banned
I am really sad now that I never played this game
Yeah, I played it a little over 3 weeks ago. Loved the hell out of it. I wish I hadn't been spoiled before playing it, but despite that the game still managed to surprise me.
EmCeeGramr
Member
There's another moment in MGS2 that often gets overlooked, and it takes this idea even farther.
When call Snake while holding the Nikita, he gives you some basic fluff about controlling the thing as usual. Then at the end, he says this:
So what, right? It's just telling you that it's all first-person now, because you're going through vents and whatnot and it's more realistic than the older games.
Then you realize. MGS1 had a bird's-eye view for the missile.
It might not mean anything. But it might be a clue hidden within MGS2, that retroactively establishes MGS1 as Raiden's VR simulation of Shadow Moses.
greycolumbus
The success of others absolutely infuriates me.
Wow.
Holy shit, mind blown.
I bet Kojima was having a good laugh at the vast majority of people that just didn't get it.
He references that in the video somewhat.
Raiden talks about his simulation training, and it shows videos of MGS1 graphics in some portions.
Very interesting.
What reality do we accept?
Did both games play through Raiden's perspective of events? Which would be what Arsenel Gear and the Patriots want Raiden to experience.
Mgs2 is one of the best aged games. So many of the topics and themes it covered are actually coming/came into fruition (e.g like sopa).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4jThrPWJoU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4jThrPWJoU
Fragamemnon
Member
Disliked this game so much that not only did I return it the very next day after I bought it for a refund (back when you could do this at EB), I basically swore off console gaming (was previously about 70/30 PC to console gaming anyway) after my experience with it. Only in the last few years did I even get back into it a bit via the occasional handheld game.
I'm not saying it's bad, it just really does not resonate at all with what I am looking for in a game. Combine that with the ridiculous megahype at its release, my take was "if I don't like this game, and this is apparently the greatest game ever, then I must not like console gaming at all, right?". Rough stuff.
I'm not saying it's bad, it just really does not resonate at all with what I am looking for in a game. Combine that with the ridiculous megahype at its release, my take was "if I don't like this game, and this is apparently the greatest game ever, then I must not like console gaming at all, right?". Rough stuff.
Splash Wave
Member
I liked his analysis a lot, but I could have done without the insistence that Kojima planned every detail so exactly. The analysis in question is worthwhile for its own sake.
Bluekaveli
Member
I can tell you that MGS2 is the best one of all time.
But everyone would be in my front yard with fire and pitchforks.
But everyone would be in my front yard with fire and pitchforks.
DJSharpeCheddar
Banned
"Nightmeers"
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
If even 70% the stuff brought up in MGS2 examinations are coincidental "read too much into it" nonsense, the other 30% is still enough to be more intricate than most games.
Just to clarify on this, I am not calling Snake and Big Boss bad characters. And I also understand completely the disappointment on playing as an effeminate looking guy who's very little like Snake. Maybe this doesnt apply to all or even most players. But Raiden is clearly represented as someone who looks up to Snake and aims to fit in his shoes. He really is the player and the game plays not just on expectations, but your experiences as well.
EmCeeGramr
Member
Rose also figures into the "Raiden as the player" metaphor.
Rose repeatedly attempts to ask Raiden to open up and talk to her. Raiden is a person who idolizes Snake, proudly proclaims that they've gone through the events of MGS1, over 300 VR Missions, and a simulation of the Tanker despite none of these experiences being "real." When Rose tries to get Raiden to talk about something "real" (his relationships with other people in the real world), he lashes out and tells her that he's busy because he's in the middle of a mission.
That's reasonable in fiction, but it takes on another aspect when you consider the metafiction. Raiden is an obsessive Metal Gear Solid fanboy chasing an unrealistic fantasy about being a super soldier, to the point that he yells at his girlfriend when she bothers him about real life while he's "busy" trying to play the newest hit game, Metal Gear Solid 2. At the end of the game, Raiden and the player are told by their ideal fantasy-self, Solid Snake, to stop trying to follow someone else's ideal, and to find things and people that we care about for ourselves.
Rose repeatedly attempts to ask Raiden to open up and talk to her. Raiden is a person who idolizes Snake, proudly proclaims that they've gone through the events of MGS1, over 300 VR Missions, and a simulation of the Tanker despite none of these experiences being "real." When Rose tries to get Raiden to talk about something "real" (his relationships with other people in the real world), he lashes out and tells her that he's busy because he's in the middle of a mission.
That's reasonable in fiction, but it takes on another aspect when you consider the metafiction. Raiden is an obsessive Metal Gear Solid fanboy chasing an unrealistic fantasy about being a super soldier, to the point that he yells at his girlfriend when she bothers him about real life while he's "busy" trying to play the newest hit game, Metal Gear Solid 2. At the end of the game, Raiden and the player are told by their ideal fantasy-self, Solid Snake, to stop trying to follow someone else's ideal, and to find things and people that we care about for ourselves.
semiconscious
Member
couldn't disagree more. kojima refuses to be a one-trick pony, & continues to go his own way. & i've loved it all, & will continue to follow. if you need a 'cool', bad-ass character to play as, you've got tons of other games to choose from. which's something he'd likely tell you himself
...Splash Wave
Member
To be clear, I don't care if it's 100% coincidence. Whether or not the analysis adheres to authorial intent is completely irrelevant to me, so I'd rather this guy didn't bother.
DJSharpeCheddar
Banned
"By comparishon"
I always enjoy reading your posts about the subject.
I don't understand why. Watch some storyline videos online. This game doesn't hold up that well today if you ask me. That hokey ass writing is just too much for this dude.
Some people think this game aged well I suppose. I guess I am just not into this whole MGS thing. It lost me after the first Solid. 3 was good fun though and 4 had its moments but was overwhelmed by heinous camp imo.
Splash Wave
Member
How is this game on Vita, by the way? I can hardly bring myself to play anything on my TV these days.
RedRedSuit
Member
This link is essential for a thread like this:
http://www.deltaheadtranslation.com/MGS2/
Pls read ASAP.
http://www.deltaheadtranslation.com/MGS2/
Pls read ASAP.
Andrefpvs
Member
Wow, great post EmCeeGramr. The fact that all these theories are plausible really attest to the quality of MGS2.
I'm kind of finding it very difficult to find a counter-point to the video.
The game comes right out, breaks the fourth wall, and tells you this multiple times.
At the time, and still today, we just aren't used to experiencing such a thing within the medium. It really is a unique case and I feel like that is the reason people fail to grasp the concept.
Tidus_Great
Banned
I really love MGS2 and I thought the story was very interesting. A shame they didn't include the document of MGS2 with the HD rerelease. Thanks for the video TC
dark_prinny
Banned
Very interesting video. MGS2 is my favourite of series.
My no.1 game of all time, for over a decade and counting.
No way, Old Snake is an excellent and extremely ballsy take on the character.
MGS4 really made Snake feel like a legend to me.
No way, Old Snake is an excellent and extremely ballsy take on the character.
MGS4 really made Snake feel like a legend to me.
Not Spaceghost
Spaceghost
Whoaa my mind is full of billions of fuck. I want to say your conclusion is probably correct since the whole point of MGS2 was to subvert MGS1 and to make its fans feel weird about everything. Because while they're sitting there being grumpy wishing they were snake you just basically spit in their face by saying BY THE WAY YOUR FAVORITE GAME WAS A VR MISSION FOR THE CHARACTER YOU HATE IN THIS GAME, HAVE A NICE DAY CHUMP!
MGS3 really feels like he wanted to appease people who actually truly enjoyed his story and send the series out with a bang, but then MGS4 really feels like it was done out of spite. A lot of imagery is brought back from other games only to be completely profaned and stepped on.
MGS2 will always be the true finale and a master piece of video game story telling.
Strange, I think it holds up perfectly. Plays much better than MGS1, and I really like that one too.
The PC port is atrocious, and I gave up twice on playing it in the past, after less than 15 minutes each time. But a month ago I decided to play it with a PS1 controller, and the game itself was fantastic. Mind you, I had read a couple of spoilers before (since I thought I'd never touch it again), and the whole ending part still surprised me, it's just that good.
This is a game I wish I had played when it came out, without knowing anything about it. I can only imagine how the people who did so must have felt, and I envy them.
EDIT: this thread reminded me that I still have to play my copy of MGS3 on the 3DS. I never played that game (only the first 10 or 15 minutes on a friend's PS2 a long time ago), so I hope it's as good as everyone says.
i mean I haven't really played mgs4 but it kinda seems like each mgs that I have played kinda ends with finality, like the guy in the video talks about how mgs4 retcons mgs2 but I've always taken the ones I've played as entities by themselves only superficially related to the other ones in the series
some guy saying that mgs2 felt like a "true finale" kinda speaks towards that emotional tendency in post-modern works
some guy saying that mgs2 felt like a "true finale" kinda speaks towards that emotional tendency in post-modern works
PanicFreak
Member
I loved MGS 1 for the Playstation. I thought I had something going with that series. I thought I would have a favorite. But they killed it in MGS2.
I played MGS4 and didn't like it. The cutscenes are just too long for my liking.
I used to go home from high school and play for an hour or an hour and a half at a time. Toward the end of MGS2, there was an especially long, unskippable cutscene that I had to watch.
The first time I tried to sit through it, it was toward the end of the session and I didn't make it until the end. The second time I tried to sit through it was during a shorter session. I didn't make it until the end. Finally, I was able to watch the entire thing on the third time through.
That's why I don't like MGS anymore.
I played MGS4 and didn't like it. The cutscenes are just too long for my liking.
I used to go home from high school and play for an hour or an hour and a half at a time. Toward the end of MGS2, there was an especially long, unskippable cutscene that I had to watch.
The first time I tried to sit through it, it was toward the end of the session and I didn't make it until the end. The second time I tried to sit through it was during a shorter session. I didn't make it until the end. Finally, I was able to watch the entire thing on the third time through.
That's why I don't like MGS anymore.
I remember being so pissed about MGS3. Obviously I was excited about it, but as time went on and they slowly revealed that it was a prequel, I was pretty perturbed. It was like how people felt at the end of Halo 2, except I would have to wait even longer (and buy a new console) to see what the hell happened after MGS 2 ended.
This all actually makes me want to go play MGS 4 right now. I don't think I savored that game as much as I should have. I got it long after it had launched, and dove into it like a hyena as soon as I bought it (and a Slim PS3). I really enjoyed it, but I need to go back and play through it again.
This all actually makes me want to go play MGS 4 right now. I don't think I savored that game as much as I should have. I got it long after it had launched, and dove into it like a hyena as soon as I bought it (and a Slim PS3). I really enjoyed it, but I need to go back and play through it again.
The main problem I had with MGS2 is that they completely ruined what I thought to be Snake's actual enemy, Ocelot. He was the real villain of MGS1 and then in 2 they introduced the stupid possessed hand storyline and brought back the boring, cliche Liquid Snake, essentially erasing one of the most interesting character from MGS1.
Also, in a world with cyborg technology, why did Ocelot not simply get some sort of robotic/cyborg hand to replace the one cut off? This could have made for a cool boss battle in MGS2 if he had some sort of super fast, super accurate shooting hand. Just one of the many ideas that would have been better than what they came up with.
Also, in a world with cyborg technology, why did Ocelot not simply get some sort of robotic/cyborg hand to replace the one cut off? This could have made for a cool boss battle in MGS2 if he had some sort of super fast, super accurate shooting hand. Just one of the many ideas that would have been better than what they came up with.
What sucks even more is that, for some reason, Kojima was insistent on bringing Liquid back one way or another from the beginning of MGS2's development. Originally he would've just turned up alive as fuck, again.