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[RetroGamingUK]

Quick look at what we got in PAL land from SEGA this "meh-ish" year lol :

Forgot Three Dirty Dwarves !

And this is not really extending to all the published games (Quake, Duke Nukem 3D, Bomberman, Jurassic Park etc...), and not even talking about the awesome third party games that were released this year (Hexen, Marvel Super Heroes, Wipeout 2097, Resident Evil, KOF95, Pandemonium, Worms...)

In the real world, 1997 was loaded with awesome games and it was impossible to keep up.

Anybody unhappy with 1997 on Saturn either hates video-games, or is pushing a narrative.

You have low standards, none of those live up to 1996 games like VF2, Sega Rally, Panzer Zwei, NiGHTs or Fighting Vipers

In order (left to right)…

- Average arcade racer with 2 tracks

- Average 2D platformer with some cool gimmicks

- Sequel to average 3D platformer

- Shit broken arcade racer

- More like Zero Enemies and some nice FMV

- Not my kinda thing, but certified banger

- Decent beat em up, nothing special

- Cash in and missed opportunity, graphical downgrade from VF2

- Decent but overrated isometric adventure

- Crap MegaDrive game with a great soundtrack

- Good RPG

- MegaDrive compilation with a dicktease tech demo

- Cash in, added clubs and some volleyball animations

- Good combat game that could've done with dual sticks

- Nice 3D Sonic tech demo, shite game

- Good 3D fighter, not up there with Virtua Fighter 2 or Fighting Vipers though

CVG's review of Sega Touring Car basically summed up Sega's 1997…

 

[RoboFu]

It's the reason I sold my Saturn, disgraceful "follow-up to Sega Rally"

it has nothing to do with sega rally. they wanted something that went fast and wasn't like rally or Daytona. It's little too fast for pick up and play though. so many casuals hated it.


Look how fast and how many cars. it's very impressive really.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

cireza before you accuse me of bias…

Thread 'Sega’s 1996 Saturn lineup is one of the greatest of all time'

Nov 5, 2024

People talk and reminisce about Sega's 2000 lineup for the Dreamcast, but I have a story about a lineup that's far greater.

While the system got off to an awkward launch, what Sega did the following year is nothing short of incredible.

For me, it's right up there with PS2 in 2001 and Xbox 360 in 2007. Let me show you why…


Virtua Fighter 2 (January)
A technical showpiece for the system, combining hi-res 3D characters, 2D parallax and mo-cap animation this blew Tekken and everything else out of the water. Nothing would even come close on rival systems until Tekken 3.

Sega Rally...

• RetroGamingUK
• Replies: 222
• Forum: Gaming Discussion

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[NeoIkaruGAF]

Soul Calibur in contrast is just a stepping stone to Soul Calibur II.

Can we please put this thread out of its misery? There's only so many bad opinions you should allow in a single discussion.

 

[RoboFu]

Can we please put this thread out of its misery? There's only so many bad opinions you should allow in a single discussion.

heck no. with how bad the industry is these days this is most interesting thread right now.

 

[cireza]

You have low standards, none of those live up to 1996 games like VF2, Sega Rally, Panzer Zwei, NiGHTs or Fighting Vipers

In order (left to right)…

- Average arcade racer with 2 tracks

- Average 2D platformer with some cool gimmicks

- Sequel to average 3D platformer

- Shit broken arcade racer

- More like Zero Enemies and some nice FMV

- Not my kinda thing, but certified banger

- Decent beat em up, nothing special

- Cash in and missed opportunity, graphical downgrade from VF2

- Decent but overrated isometric adventure

- Crap MegaDrive game with a great soundtrack

- Good RPG

- MegaDrive compilation with a dicktease tech demo

- Cash in, added clubs and some volleyball animations

- Good combat game that could've done with dual sticks

- Nice 3D Sonic tech demo, shite game

- Good 3D fighter, not up there with Virtua Fighter 2 or Fighting Vipers though

CVG's review of Sega Touring Car basically summed up Sega's 1997…

I don't think we could have a better demonstration of your bad-faith, and how you are struggling to push a totally ridiculous and stupid narrative.

I am starting to think that you weren't bullied at school because Saturn had allegedly inferior multi-platforms (which it didn't by any significant margin), but rather because YOU were the problem lol.

 

[Crayon]

After wanting to play it for a long long time, I only had the pleasure of being super disapointed with touring car last year.

Funny, exact same thing with destruction derby 2!! I can hardly decide which pissed me off more.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

I don't think we could have a better demonstration of your bad-faith, and how you are struggling to push a totally ridiculous and stupid narrative.

I am starting to think that you weren't bullied at school because Saturn had allegedly inferior multi-platforms (which it didn't by any significant margin), but rather because YOU were the problem lol.

I'm not alone here.

Barely anyone bought a Saturn or those games in 1997, hence why they didn't chart and are now rare on eBay.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

it has nothing to do with sega rally. they wanted something that went fast and wasn't like rally or Daytona. It's little too fast for pick up and play though. so many casuals hated it.


Look how fast and how many cars. it's very impressive really.

The frame rate is all over the shop.

The assisted steering does it for me though. You can't turn on straights yet as soon as you approach a bend you're oversteering all over the place.

I've never encountered a mechanic like this before or since.

Of course people who couldn't accept Saturn was dying lapped it up while racing fans with standards bought a PlayStation with something decent like Rage Racer, Formula 1 97 or TOCA Touring Car.

Yup, Saturn's sole car racing game of 1997 was a bag of wank.

 

[U n i o n 0015]

People shit on touring car but I really like it. it's just so different from everything else.

The Saturn port is an almost criminal downgrade from the Model 2. Being the Saturn hyper fan I was, I bought it and Manx at launch, and even then I felt like Sega lost the porting magic they had with VF2 and Sega Rally.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

The frame rate is all over the shop.

The assisted steering does it for me though. You can't turn on straights yet as soon as you approach a bend you're oversteering all over the place.

I've never encountered a mechanic like this before or since.

Of course people who couldn't accept Saturn was dying lapped it up while racing fans with standards bought a PlayStation with something decent like Rage Racer, Formula 1 97 or TOCA Touring Car.

Yup, Saturn's sole car racing game of 1997 was a bag of wank.

Googling it, the Japanese game supposedly had a 60 fps mode (as mentioned by a youtuber too). But the NA version runs slow at 20+ fps as per videos showing real hardware graphics. The video RoboFu posted was either encoded at 60 fps or maybe it was showing the Japanese version.

 

[NeverYouMind]

You have low standards, none of those live up to 1996 games like VF2, Sega Rally, Panzer Zwei, NiGHTs or Fighting Vipers

7 of my top 10 Saturn games came out in 1997.

Decent beat em up, nothing special

Die Hard Arcade is a blockbuster action film in arcade form and you can play it at home! Best 3D beat 'em up available until the turn of the century...

Cash in and missed opportunity, graphical downgrade from VF2

They implemented Sega Model 3 Virtual Fighter 3 mechanics that go beyond Model 2 Virtual Fighter 2 and Fighting Vipers mechanics in a game running on practically a hardware equivalent of a Sega S-TV! It has tons of bonus content and unlike in Dreamcast port of Virtua Fighter 3 you can play against another person. It even has Survival and VS CPU! Best you can get from its contemporaries in this time period is a single CPU round in Team Battle.

Nice 3D Sonic tech demo, shite game

It is still better than Mario Kart 64 in every way.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Googling it, the Japanese game supposedly had a 60 fps mode (as mentioned by a youtuber too). But the NA version runs slow at 20+ fps as per videos showing real hardware graphics. The video RoboFu posted was either encoded at 60 fps or maybe it was showing the Japanese version.

I'd say it was yet another case of Sega taking their western audience for cunts, but no, Japanese version just as bad

It's likely struggling to handle the geometry, there's more cars on screen compared to Sega Rally

 

[Hyperborean]

I remember being a young Nintendo fanboy and freaking out about Sega Touring Car. "OMG SEGA RALLY IS KNOWN AS THE BEST RACER, WHAT IF TOURING CAR IS NEW BEST RACER ASWELL OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!."

 

[StreetsofBeige]

I'd say it was yet another case of Sega taking their western audience for cunts, but no, Japanese version just as bad

It's likely struggling to handle the geometry, there's more cars on screen compared to Sega Rally

Ok thx. Was just going on a google check. If it ran that bad, it was odd a YT guy said Japanese game had 60 fps mode. I guess he's wrong. I saw and heard the video too.

 

[Alexios]

Googling it, the Japanese game supposedly had a 60 fps mode (as mentioned by a youtuber too).

That's not a thing. Framerate is as in that video so, perfectly playable as in that video. Definitely an aquired/niche taste in terms of handling, which also isn't broken or whatever as again perfectly demonstrated in that same video. I liked it even if it's no Sega Rally as I liked PS fighters after Tekken 3 despite that being the pinnacle on the system (so I don't see how just saying "x is not as good as VF2" while acknowledging that as the pinnacle is any kind of argument or how anyone can with a straight face go "I'm right, it sucks because it didn't chart" like good games always chart/bad don't).

The Saturn port is an almost criminal downgrade from the Model 2. Being the Saturn hyper fan I was, I bought it and Manx at launch, and even then I felt like Sega lost the porting magic they had with VF2 and Sega Rally.

Don't see how one could expect a better port from Model 2 than Manx TT on Saturn tbh. Or no severe downgrades from Model 2 to any system of the era. Even far inferior boards like Namco's needed severe downgrades for their PS ports. Tantalus did a great job with Manx TT, rock solid framerate, solid visuals, somewhat diminished draw distance but probably no worse than Sega Rally's, just tracks that don't hide it as well on some straights. The main downfall is, again, that it's a barebones port with no extra content (just like Sega Rally but at least that had 4 tracks, not 2).

​

It's not the actual geometry compelxity that causes performance issues in Touring Cars btw.

​

I changed the draw commands for all polygons to be wireframes. The game now runs at a solid 30fps. So it's pretty clear now that the game is being throttled by VDP1 fillrate. From the looks of things there's no subdivision being done on the track polygons resulting in massive polygons going off camera which really hurts VDP1 performance. There also doesn't appear to be much LOD going on with the track itself, resulting in tons of unnecessary draw commands being done for things in the distance.​

Sucks they couldn't optimize it better, oh well. We can emulate the arcade version instead nowadays but tbh I somehow find that less appealing. Maybe I've not figured out a good way to map it to gamepad controls. Can't have the real arcade at home like this guy, heh.

​

Since the first TOCA game was mentioned here, eh, I thought it's quite rough looking/performing too (less on emptier stretches) but seemed to have much for fans of the motorsport to sink their teeth info if they got over that (hence the good reviews). I couldn't at the time myself

​

But it's not on the Saturn so it's ok to not have great performance (even the GT games aren't locked 30fps, but fare a ton better than these two), just like Syphon Filter, Perfect Dark and many other beloved games elsewhere, only on Saturn games/ports is less than locked 30fps unplayable shit

 

[RetroGamingUK]

I remember being a young Nintendo fanboy and freaking out about Sega Touring Car. "OMG SEGA RALLY IS KNOWN AS THE BEST RACER, WHAT IF TOURING CAR IS NEW BEST RACER ASWELL OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!."

Either the game took a bizarre turn for the worse in the final month of development (like builds being accidentally deleted), or Official Saturn Magazine's Lee Nutter was lying through his arse

 

[U n i o n 0015]

Don't see how one could expect a better port from Model 2 than Manx TT on Saturn tbh. Or no severe downgrades from Model 2 to any system of the era. Even far inferior boards like Namco's needed severe downgrades for their PS ports.

For sure. I don't think Manx is a horrible port, the FPS and controls just don't feel as good as Sega Rally. Some people say the game plays a lot better with the analog pad, I gotta try that...

I also think the great ports, like VF2 and Last Bronx, had some key technical shortcuts that they were able to take, like changing the backgrounds to 2D. Those kind of shortcuts are a lot harder to do in a racing game where at the bare minimum, the car and the track have to be 3D geometry.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Either the game took a bizarre turn for the worse in the final month of development (like builds being accidentally deleted), or Official Saturn Magazine's Lee Nutter was lying through his arse

I wouldnt trust any Official Saturn or PS mags back in the day. Their reviews were always biased skewing hard to great review scores for first party games. All the multi-platform mags would rate games more modestly. And then these "official mags" would give the same game 90%.

 

[cireza]

I don't think Manx is a horrible port

Manx TT is a genuinely great port, but yes, you need the analog controller in this one.

Touring Car despite its framerate inconsistencies was a fun a game with many cars, tracks, stuff to unlock and a very fun feature about having a CPU controlled car improve depending on your times in the game, the goal being to build that CPU to be good enough to win the championship to unlock more stuff. Pretty clever for the time.

 

[Crayon]

(quote button messed up, but things about touring car)

The memory is recent and touring car was a nightmare with bad dpad and analog controls, buuuut I am going to try it again soon. Maybe tonight. I really want to like it. Maybe I can wrangle it and enjoy the game.

e FPS and controls just don't feel as good as Sega Rally. Some people say the game plays a lot better with the analog pad, I gotta try

Also fucked up quote button but at least I got part of the sentence. Analog pad is an absolute must for manx. I think daytona and rally play wonderfully with the dpad but manx almost makes no sense with it.

....

And ima throw in that F1 Live Information is the sleeper racing game nobody mentions. I think it's fucking great. The Live Information jp version in particular, I LOVE the commentary track playing. And not understanding the language makes it less repetitive lol. I think it a series of long loops? It sounds way more natural than the sports-game style commentary from psygnosis F1 on ps1.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

I found Tekken 2 to feel clunky and look technically unimpressive.

In your opinion, are "impressive" games with fewer characters, fewer CGI endings, and fewer lighting effects, proper shadows and chain combo ?
Are those without these features the "impressives" for you?

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

The Saturn port is an almost criminal downgrade from the Model 2. Being the Saturn hyper fan I was, I bought it and Manx at launch, and even then I felt like Sega lost the porting magic they had with VF2 and Sega Rally.

The Sega Saturn isn't that powerful; it lacked juice.

Sega Rally is graphically simple, though artistically beautiful. In fact, Daytona USA from 1995 was a more ambitious game. Unlike VF2, racing games aren't suited to the VDP-2, and without the VDP-2, the Saturn is equivalent to half a PlayStation. There's no way to properly port an arcade board that's six times more powerful overall.

 

[Crayon]

Yeah idk why nobody ever seems to notice rally only has one other car on screen.... And its a very simplified model, at that. Daytona has like 20 swerving maniacs.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Yeah idk why nobody ever seems to notice rally only has one other car on screen.... And its a very simplified model, at that. Daytona has like 20 swerving maniacs.

Yup. Rally is a game they designed to have lots of bends and corners which help hide pop in, while Daytona has big long open tracks too. Reverse the games' map style and cars and Daytons would look better and Rally much worse.

 

[Crayon]

Yup. Rally is a game they designed to have lots of bends and corners which help hide pop in, while Daytona has big long open tracks too. Reverse the games' map style and cars and Daytons would look better and Rally much worse.

I'd add maybe if daytona had more time, too. But then again, Daytona CE kinda shows that it doesn't make all the difference. I think you're right.

 

[Ozzie666]

I think the fact that the triple pack for the Saturn barely moved the needle, speaks volumes to their game's selling power. 3 decent arcade ports way too late by 1996 in North America. The needle did move, very slightly, but still.

I had sold my launch Saturn and jumped back in.

 

[Crayon]

Okay. Long day. Unusual day. Home and settled in now.

Time to play Touring Car. Deep breath.

 

[Team Andromeda]

The Saturn port is an almost criminal downgrade from the Model 2. Being the Saturn hyper fan I was, I bought it and Manx at launch, and even then I felt like Sega lost the porting magic they had with VF2 and Sega Rally.

I don't agree

In terms of graphics it's one of the closest model 2 ports there is on the Saturn, almost everything is there right down to mesh crowd barriers and even the rear-view mirror. It's just a shame the erratic frame rate lets it down. I was amazed too since it was coming from the Virtual On porting team , who did such a wonderful job with VO port to the Saturn, which to me would see a harder game to port more so given the Arcade game used two Model 2 boards in each unit.

I really thing mind the massive sales of FF7 and the PS1 overtaking hardware sales of Saturn in Japan had a massive impact and SEGA began to focus more on the DC project and pull resources at the cost of Saturn projects. All that said, if you play Tourning Car on the Saturn with Arcade racer it controls so much better and can be fun

 

[cireza]

Yeah idk why nobody ever seems to notice rally only has one other car on screen.... And its a very simplified model, at that. Daytona has like 20 swerving maniacs.

Because that's wrong ? Probably the reason why.

Have you played the game ? Doesn't seem like it.

 

[Crayon]

Because that's wrong ? Probably the reason why.

Have you played the game ? Doesn't seem like it.

My god you're unbalanced. Yeah I think all of us have played sega rally.

Hold on I'm writing about touring car. Save your energy for that.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Because that's wrong ? Probably the reason why.

Have you played the game ? Doesn't seem like it.

The most you'll ever see is the player car and 2 other cars featuring less geometry

 

[Crayon]

Okay I played a solid hour of touring car. I'll go back for some more later. What to talk about first?

Gameplay. I tried both the digital and analog control. I used the analog more. The game made okay use of it and felt a little better. With the analog controls, the bad framerate seems to eat a lot of the finer inputs that otherwise work pretty well. This didn't seem as pronounced with the dpad but I only tried that for like ten minutes.

The controls really are bad. The mouthfeel is not there and it's not inviting you to keep trying. But I'm intent to give this a good try so I was pushing through. There's a difference between controls and handling, and I was trying to feel the game's handling all muddied under those controls.

The handling is actually really interesting. I like it. I can see how it wasn't that popular in an arcade, though. I think maybe txr was also going for something like this. Can't talk too much about that after just an hour, though.

Now I have to comment on the graphics and performance.

So they put all this effort into replicating an arcade game that was not the most popular thing. It's ugly and runs poorly, and is hardly legible. I'll waive that legibility because lots of racing games were in this era and you had to lean on memorizing the tracks, anyway. If I played this for several more hours, I'd feel like I could see everything I need to see. And I don't really know haw far that could be fixed. Still not a good thing.

So what is the point of this port? To replicate 3 tracks and 4 cars? To stay accurate to a game that wasn't popular? And it's still a failure.

I would have liked to see a different class of port for this game. Allow the port to be different from the arcade game because the arcade game is just not going to work. A ton of the trackside geometry could have been changed to scalar effects. Make your own tracks to take those graphics into account and make 7-8 of them. Get a season mode with a little more structure in there. That would be more comparable to what other racing games were offering at the time. Keep the handling and make the tracks more appropriate for someone playing at much less res and fps than the arcade.

So you end up with a bespoke version that includes aggressive cutbacks. But if the end result looks, runs, and plays better, is that really a cutback? Can it break out of downport status and be it's own game? On nes, there were a number of arcade ports that were actually ground-up rebuilds. They could end up quite different from the arcade. Developers started again so they could build the game for the limits of the nes. That could have worked here.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

So what is the point of this port? To replicate 3 tracks and 4 cars? To stay accurate to a game that wasn't popular? And it's still a failure.

It really is terrible, you can see why Gamerankings gives it 66% (and that's without the CVG 40% score).

Meanwhile that year on PlayStation there was…

Gran Turismo (import)
Formula 1 97
TOCA Touring Car
Rage Racer
V Rally
Porsche Challenge
Test Drive 4
Need for Speed II
Rally Cross

…and on N64…

V Rally
Top Gear Rally
Automobili Lamborghini
MRC

All objectively better than Sega Touring Car.

You can see why Saturn console sales dried up after 1996.

 

[Alexios]

Lol @ the trolls

 

[Kyo]

Quick look at what we got in PAL land from SEGA this "meh-ish" year lol :

Forgot Three Dirty Dwarves !

In the real world, 1997 was loaded with awesome games and it was impossible to keep up.

Anybody unhappy with 1997 on Saturn either hates video-games, or is pushing a narrative.

Sorry, but you're really making RetroGaming's point for him here! That list is pretty pathetic.

Manx TT = decent conversion of a game with minimal content devoid of appeal without its arcade cabinet.

Mr. Bones = terrible game

Bug Too! = nobody asked for this. Also, this was really a '96 title with a delayed PAL release.

Touring Car = awful conversion of a decent game. Far worse than Sega Rally

Worldwide Soccer '98 = wasn't this just a low-effort annual update?

All the Sonics = forgettable

Last Bronx = excellent conversion of a mediocre game nobody needed

I can't comment on Enemy Zero, but otherwise that leaves just these:

Dragon Force = a classic, but if you were into imports, this was a late '96 title brought over to PAL land 9 months late

Fighters Megamix = fun, but really another late '96 title with a PAL delay added

Dark Savior = never thought it was that great, but Saturn needed more stuff like this, so OK. But again: a late '96 import

Virtual On = good conversion of a decent game, but another '96 import that was a bit late in PAL land


And thus we arrive at just two games:

Die Hard Arcade = awesome

Shining the Holy Ark = another '97 game that was good, too!

So to me your list of '97 releases looks like slim pickings. Half a dozen good games, five of which were just '96 releases that arrived here with a delay. So really just one good *actual* '97 release. I was a big Saturn fan, but I fail to see how '97 was anything but a pathetic year in terms of Sega output.


EDIT: Sorry, I had the Japanese release date of Dynamite Deka wrong. That makes *two* fresh and good '97 titles on the list!

 

[cireza]

My god you're unbalanced. Yeah I think all of us have played sega rally.

You are just wrong. Sega Rally displays more than one other car, that's it.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

You are just wrong. Sega Rally displays more than one other car, that's it.

The vast majority of the time only 1 or 2 are displayed.

On the desert straights you will see 3.

Very very rarely will you see a 4th car.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

I was a big Saturn fan, but I fail to see how '97 was anything but a pathetic year in terms of Sega output.

Every console is designed around a target that must be met within 14 months. This includes:

- specs
- price
- target audience
- launch games
- holiday games for the following year

It's a lottery, completely random because no one knows if what they designed in their head will work in the real world.

If the target isn't met, it's over; a plan B is activated, which includes

- creating a new project
- reducing hardware investment
- trying to increase profits on a reduced base.

Therefore, the Sega Saturn dies behind the scenes in June 1996, but lives an extra year in Japan. We need to understand that FF7 was an unprecedented phenomenon. The PSX sold 5 million consoles in just a few months because of this game. At that time, Japanese consumers were certain that buying a Sega or Nintendo console was a waste of money. When we ask why Saturn died, the answer is that it died in the conceptual phase in 1993.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Therefore, the Sega Saturn dies behind the scenes in June 1996, but lives an extra year in Japan.

There may be something do that.

If you take a look at the last first party games like PD Saga, some of those started development in 1995.

So some might assume Sega stopped greenlighting any new Saturn projects around June 1996, or not long after that.

Took them a year after that to publically admit they were throwing in the towel.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

There may be something do that.

If you take a look at the last first party games like PD Saga, some of those started development in 1995.

So some might assume Sega stopped greenlighting any new Saturn projects around June 1996.

Took them a year after that to publically admit they were throwing in the towel.

Sega didn't move PD Saga to the Dreamcast because in Japan the Saturn seemed to work at the end of 1996 (they didn't foresee the cultural impact of FF7) and the game was in an advanced stage, moving it to the Dreamcast would be losing a year of work, in fact they bet on Shenmue, leaving PDS and Burning Rangers on the Saturn as a farewell, a serious mistake if we look back

 

[cireza]

The vast majority of the time only 1 or 2 are displayed.

On the desert straights you will see 3.

Very very rarely will you see a 4th car.

Which is a different thing from "only 1 car".

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Sega didn't move PD Saga to the Dreamcast because in Japan the Saturn seemed to work at the end of 1996 (they didn't foresee the cultural impact of FF7) and the game was in an advanced stage, moving it to the Dreamcast would be losing a year of work, in fact they bet on Shenmue, leaving PDS and Burning Rangers on the Saturn as a farewell, a serious mistake if we look back

Shenmue started development in 1996, so it wasn't that far into development before it shifted to next gen.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Which is a different thing from "only 1 car".

Certainly is

It's strange how Saturn, in terms of driving games, technically peaks so early with Sega Rally and Daytona CCE.

Both games seem to push the console to its limit.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

Both games seem to push the console to its limit.

I explained in this thread that the Saturn was maxed out from launch, any subsequent improvements are a tradeoff, frame rate for polygon count or clever art direction.

People confuse programming difficulty vs impossibility vs raw power. If they accept the truth, that the Saturn is the weakest console of that gen, everything becomes easier and the mystery ends.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

I explained in this thread that the Saturn was maxed out from launch, any subsequent improvements are a tradeoff, frame rate for polygon count or clever art direction.

People confuse programming difficulty vs impossibility vs raw power. If they accept the truth, that the Saturn is the weakest console of that gen, everything becomes easier and the mystery ends.

Yup, same goes for Virtual Fighter 2.

Last Bronx's only improvement 2 years later was better coordination of the VDP2 layers with the camera. Dead or Alive added nothing new either on a technical level.

Fighting Vipers and Fighters Megamix had to downgrade character models and r resolution to achieve the "lighting"

 

[RAIDEN1]

Thank the lord Scud Race didn't come to the Saturn it would have looked hideous, the only console that might have been able to do it was Dreamcast, but even then....not the console of choice..I think OG Xbox would have been the platform to match the standards of that game...

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Thank the lord Scud Race didn't come to the Saturn it would have looked hideous, the only console that might have been able to do it was Dreamcast, but even then....not the console of choice..I think OG Xbox would have been the platform to match the standards of that game...

Scud Race looks gorgeous today, even the Dreamcast tech demo doesn't come close

 

[diffusionx]

Quick look at what we got in PAL land from SEGA this "meh-ish" year lol :

Forgot Three Dirty Dwarves !

And this is not really extending to all the published games (Quake, Duke Nukem 3D, Bomberman, Jurassic Park etc...), and not even talking about the awesome third party games that were released this year (Hexen, Marvel Super Heroes, Wipeout 2097, Resident Evil, KOF95, Pandemonium, Worms...)

In the real world, 1997 was loaded with awesome games and it was impossible to keep up.

Anybody unhappy with 1997 on Saturn either hates video-games, or is pushing a narrative.

yooooo this dude putting up Mr. Bones and Bug Too on his graphic of great Saturn games lmaoooo

 

[Team Andromeda]

Sorry, but you're really making RetroGaming's point for him here! That list is pretty pathetic.

Manx TT = decent conversion of a game with minimal content devoid of appeal without its arcade cabinet.

Mr. Bones = terrible game

Bug Too! = nobody asked for this. Also, this was really a '96 title with a delayed PAL release.

Touring Car = awful conversion of a decent game. Far worse than Sega Rally

Worldwide Soccer '98 = wasn't this just a low-effort annual update?

All the Sonics = forgettable

Last Bronx = excellent conversion of a mediocre game nobody needed

I can't comment on Enemy Zero, but otherwise that leaves just these:

Dragon Force = a classic, but if you were into imports, this was a late '96 title brought over to PAL land 9 months late

Die Hard Arcade = awesome, but a June '96 import that arrived here a year late

Fighters Megamix = fun, but really another late '96 title with a PAL delay added

Dark Savior = never thought it was that great, but Saturn needed more stuff like this, so OK. But again: a late '96 import

Sorry you seem to be just like Retrogamming, looking to bash SEGA, also move the goal posts like now... Its how long it took for a Pal version to come out on Saturn, well two can play at that game

Since you talk of Dragon Force, How long did it take for the Pal version of The Legend of Dragoon to be released, over a year after the Japanese version from what I recall.
You talk of Fighting Megamix , How long did it take of Tekken 2 or Tekken 3 to came out on Pal. I seem to think it was over 6 months for both and lets also remember the piss poor speed optimization in both, with Tekken 3 being really bad (like none) which was quite the thing for Pal optimization on import games on the PS1, where most were made to run full screen but piss poor speed optimization.


And as for the rest it just seems like you're looking to use any excuse to hate. I will agree with you on Mr Bones mind

Tekken Tag Tournament > Soul Calibur
Madden 2001 == NFL 2K

As far as Sonic Adventure, its variety was a detriment. Who bought a Sonic game to play mediocre pinball, fish, have on-rails dogfights, or do car racing. The PS2 had bigger game variety with more curated experiences.

LOL Tekken Tag had nothing like the content of Soul Calibur and its Mission Battle mode, don't come it on that one. Madden wasn't made or produced by SONY so don't come it on that one either and has for drivel on Sonic Adv, I take it that's a no then....