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[RetroGamingUK]

It's not the actual geometry compelxity that causes performance issues in Touring Cars btw.

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Sucks they couldn't optimize it better, oh well. We can emulate the arcade version instead nowadays but tbh I somehow find that less appealing. Maybe I've not figured out a good way to map it to gamepad controls. Can't have the real arcade at home like this guy, heh.

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Since the first TOCA game was mentioned here, eh, I thought it's quite rough looking/performing too (less on emptier stretches) but seemed to have much for fans of the motorsport to sink their teeth info if they got over that (hence the good reviews). I couldn't at the time myself

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But it's not on the Saturn so it's ok to not have great performance (even the GT games aren't locked 30fps, but fare a ton better than these two), just like Syphon Filter, Perfect Dark and many other beloved games elsewhere, only on Saturn games/ports is less than locked 30fps unplayable shit

While Sega Touring Car was maxing out Saturn's fill-rate and and proving to be a bridge too far for the console, PlayStation was pushing forward with driving games far beyond Saturn's capabilities.

And it didn't end there with the likes of GT2 and Ridge Racer 4 pushing the limits even further in 1999.

But back to 1997…


Gran Turismo

Each of the 6 on-screen cars have a second semi-transparent car mesh with transparent scrolling textures gives the impression of reflections. This effect became a staple of PS1 racers, impossible on Saturn. There also appears to be Gouraud shading on the night tracks.

Formula 1 97

Check out the amount of cars on that starting grid (14 on screen at once) all complete with lighting (6 on screen cars are lit from the left), all runs smoothly enough too

Porsche Challenge

Gorgeous car models, complete with transparent windows, soft shadows, detailed animated drivers and reactive lighting

Rage Racer

Nicely shaded cars with incredibly detailed tracks high on polygonal geometry, with almost no perceivable draw-in

Saturn held its own in 1996, in 1997 it just fell apart though. VDP1 and those SH2's just couldn't replicate the above, not even close, and VDP2 had absolutely no use in this fully 3D genre.

 

[cireza]

Dragon Force = a classic, but if you were into imports, this was a late '96 title brought over to PAL land 9 months late
Die Hard Arcade = awesome, but a June '96 import that arrived here a year late
Fighters Megamix = fun, but really another late '96 title with a PAL delay added
Virtual On = good conversion of a decent game, but another '96 import that was a bit late in PAL land

In a discussion about the games released in 1997 in the West, we should ignore a game because it was released the year before in Japan.
This has to be the dumbest rebuttal I have read so far.

And Dark Savior is awesome.

 

[Alexios]

If you want a racer with a longer solo mode on Saturn, there is Choro Q Park. Well, NFS, WipEout XL, Drift King '97 etc. too. Maybe Code R & Touge 2. Street Racer has loads of tracks. Hang On GP 6 (+ mirrored).

Sega Rally is the one to get most play to perfect runs and/or go back years/decades later because of arcade goodness that is not even superseded by later generation sequels/competitors, unlike other games​

While Sega Touring Car was maxing out Saturn's fill-rate

None of the games you posted are shoehorned ports from far superior hardware (obviously it matters, every aspect of the game engine, visuals, gameplay logic, physics etc., whether you think is amazing or not, was designed to utilize wholly different, better hardware). One game "maxing out" anything doesn't mean there couldn't be a better optimised game (as Saturn does have better looking and running games to STCC, lol), just as there are games worse looking than GT that also run worse than GT on PS but GT still existed eventually showing it can be pushed to do better than previous games "maxing out" this or that aspect by simply utilizing it "wrong" or devs not having the know how, time, budget, to do better at a given time/specific scenario (such as the TOCA devs at the time, who improved with sequels and other games you posted did better too). Not gonna double check no pop in or whatever I corrected you for other games like (the amazing) WipEout 3, too much unnecessary bs to keep bothering. Anyway, this has nothing to do with what you quoted, the point I made about TOCA is that like multiple times before you thought a game that clearly doesn't perform great on PS (or N64) is worthwhile but for Saturn any game folks may mention is great you strive to call unplayable shit focusing on whatever one aspect it may not excel in, not that PS has no better racers or that we should once again compare Saturn's worst with its best, lmao​

 

[Crayon]

I think that list of 97 games is not too shabby but it's really funny to see mr bones on there.

edit: and dark savior is badass.

 

[Crayon]

R4 is another game that contrains the cars on screen. There are spots where you see most of the grid but it does the ridge racer thing of stretching the cars waaaaay out within seconds of the race starting. The vast majority of the time, you are just passing one at a time and it's not a game were you really have traffic.

Some games do that for gameplay reasons, though. Sometimes collision and ai suck and couldn't handle it. Sometimes they just want to emphasize the track as your challenge and not the other racers. This is one of the main reasons daytona is so much more fun than those early ridge racers. It has the ai and collisions down much better and showcases that in the gameplay.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

None of the games you post are shoehorned ports from far superior to both consoles' hardware, one specific game "maxing out" anything doesn't mean there couldn't be a different, better optimised game (as Saturn does have better looking & running games), just as there are games far worse looking than GT that still run way worse than GT on PS but GT still existed eventually showing it can be pushed to do better than previous games "maxing out" this or that aspect by simply utilizing it "wrong" or devs not having the know how, time, budget, to do better at a given time/scenario.

Does any of that matter? The games I posted are attempting (and achieving) to render more than Sega Touring Car was along with implementing graphical effects which, as far as evidence more than suggests, simply were not possible on Saturn.

We've seen countless examples of racing games attempting anything beyond Daytona CCE in terms of rendering displaying serious frame rate issues that it's pretty safe to assume that Daytona CCE is the very maximum the Saturn can achieve in the genre.

Your excuse that Sega Touring Car on Saturn's shortcomings were simply down to it being based on a game running on superior hardware are disingenuous.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Does any of that matter? The games I posted are attempting (and achieving) to render more than Sega Touring Car was along with implementing graphical effects which, as far as evidence more than suggests, simply were not possible on Saturn.

We've seen countless examples of racing games attempting anything beyond Daytona CCE in terms of rendering displaying serious frame rate issues that it's pretty safe to assume that Daytona CCE is the very maximum the Saturn can achieve in the genre.

Your excuse that Sega Touring Car on Saturn's shortcomings were simply down to it being based on a game running on superior hardware are disingenuous.

I think it also goes beyond pure graphics, which PS1 3D is clearly better overall. Sure there could be some good looking Saturn 3D games, but who cares. PS1 games did better 3D as a whole.

But also, when you compare these Sega racing games (or lots of other Sega first party arcade games), they were really shallow in content. It was different in the 8 and 16 bt days where most games were really short, often arcade based, and limited storage meant short games anyway. CD format changed all that. And lots of Sega first party games were still shallow like they did a quick port, added a tiny amount of console specific content, and then moved on to the next port. But then Sony makes GT1 and GT2 which destroy any Saturn first party or racing game.

 

[Crayon]

As far as I know, we've only got one model 2 port to look at on ps1 and that was dead or alive. They took a different approach to it and it makes them kinda hard to compare. I think the saturn version looks better. Might be hands down better if you look at the ps1's backgrounds being basically ditched. The fighting games were a different challenge than the racing games, though.

 

[RetroAV]

The Saturn was unconventional. Under the right conditions, it could push visuals rivaling Sega's Model 2 arcade board (Virtua Fighter 2, Sega Rally, Last Bronx) — just through brute-force coding instead of hardware shortcuts.



But when teams tried to force design styles outside its comfort zone, the system choked. Daytona USA proved that: the Model 2 handled texture mapping in hardware, while the Saturn had to fake it through software. Every console has a design "lane," but the Saturn's was narrower and steeper — step outside it, and performance dropped off a cliff.

 

[Kyo]

Sorry you seem to be just like Retrogamming, looking to bash SEGA, also move the goal posts like now... Its how long it took for a Pal version to come out on Saturn, well two can play at that game

Since you talk of Dragon Force, How long did it take for the Pal version of The Legend of Dragoon to be released, over a year after the Japanese version from what I recall.
You talk of Fighting Megamix , How long did it take of Tekken 2 or Tekken 3 to came out on Pal. I seem to think it was over 6 months for both and lets also remember the piss poor speed optimization in both, with Tekken 3 being really bad (like none) which was quite the thing for Pal optimization on import games on the PS1, where most were made to run full screen but piss poor speed optimization.


And as for the rest it just seems like you're looking to use any excuse to hate. I will agree with you on Mr Bones mind

You're completely missing the point. I don't care in the slightest how long it took for [insert other game for other system] to come out. I care about what new stuff I was getting to play. Me being an importer, Sega of Europe belatedly putting out some game from last year did not add anything new worth playing to my list of choices!

I have no reason to hate on anything. And either way, there was, thankfully, a lot of cool third party stuff still coming out in '97. But Sega's output that year was quite poor.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

The Saturn was unconventional. Under the right conditions, it could push visuals rivaling Sega's Model 2 arcade board (Virtua Fighter 2, Sega Rally, Last Bronx) — just through brute-force coding instead of hardware shortcuts.



But when teams tried to force design styles outside its comfort zone, the system choked. Daytona USA proved that: the Model 2 handled texture mapping in hardware, while the Saturn had to fake it through software. Every console has a design "lane," but the Saturn's was narrower and steeper — step outside it, and performance dropped off a cliff.

A few things that made Daytona Saturn look much worse too (aside from obvious res and frames), is why the Saturn version had cars so tall and bubbling up and down. The arcade game had sleeker looking car models and didnt shake so heavy.

 

[diffusionx]

The Saturn was unconventional. Under the right conditions, it could push visuals rivaling Sega's Model 2 arcade board (Virtua Fighter 2, Sega Rally, Last Bronx) — just through brute-force coding instead of hardware shortcuts.

Let's not go nuts. Saturn is not close to Model 2 and could not "rival" it. The examples you posted had significant cutbacks.

The best thing about the best Model 2 ports is that they captured the gameplay of the games extremely well.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Even Sega Rally, which only usually renders a couple of cars on screen struggles with pop in compared to PlayStation's first ever game (Ridge Racer) which can have up to 6 cars on screen.

In terms of polygon rendering Ridge Racer blows Sega Rally out of the water.