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[Warm Machine]

This is the only true benefit to this DRM.


2. Why is this a benefit? Instant play if you have a disc vs 10 hour download on Average broadband. Just take the disc with you. Any scenario that arises from not having the Disc is more likely a one-off event. It will always be more convenient to install off the disc rather than over internet.


3. What is this? The benefit is making the Current process of selling/buying used games MORE difficult and complex? Restricting users to a specific set of stores to make that trade? Meaning that Ebay/Craigslist/garage sales either become cut off? That is your 3rd benefit?

Have you ever had a game stolen or broken? Both this have happened to me. In both cases I had to rebuy the games. Point 2 solves the problem. Point 3 is the benefit of the DRM over the typical DRM used in the PC world where the disc becomes a useless piece of plastic after verification.

 

[hackdog]

I am no more informed after reading that OP yet it speaks volumes about the people behind XBO.
The first rule of xbox: you do not talk about xbox.
The second rule of xbox: YOU DO NOT TALK ABOUT XBOX!

 

[DopeyFish]

Right, you want the advantages of digital without downloading and that's in my opinion not important enough to throw away the advantages of physical.

I don't see any advantages to the current setup when compared to the one

 

[Raist]

For the user.

1. If you count copying disc based games to the HDD for instant play without needing the disc in the drive, that is an advantage.

Such a redeeming feature.
Is it nice? Yes. Does it justify the consequent restrictions? No.
If you're so concerned about having to get up and change disc, buy DD.

2. It is also an advantage to be able to download a game you have bought in the store without needing the original disc.

Again how about DD?

3. That they check at all means that you get the convenience of point 1 and also proves that there is a secondary market possibility. They could have just as well made the discs a useless coaster after the initial verification and totally ignored the used market. Verification is there to prove that the proper owner of the game is playing the game and not utilizing a pirated or stolen copy.

So you're basically saying that it could have been worse? What kind of advantage is this?

 

[fallagin]

It seems like you're having a lot of fun

 

[Cizard]

I don't see any advantages to the current setup when compared to the one

-Reselling without asking for microsoft's permission.
-Playing without asking for microsoft's permission.
-Borrowing games from friends

 

[Muchi Muchi Pink]

How are cloud saves connected to drm at all? That makes no sense.

 

[eznark]

"There are a lot of advantages! Here they are:

TBA"

Perfect

 

[damaph]

Everyone knows DRM has lots of advantages for Microsoft themselves... but could he at least name one advantage for consumers? If people want to play games without discs, then they don't have to buy discs. All game will probably be available digitally. You shouldn't force people to connect to the internet every 24 hours just so they can play a game they bought.

 

[Burai]

Have you ever had a game stolen or broken? Both this have happened to me. In both cases I had to rebuy the games. Point 2 solves the problem. Point 3 is the benefit of the DRM over the typical DRM used in the PC world where the disc becomes a useless piece of plastic after verification.

So because you're clumsy we have to give up trading and lending games?

That doesn't seem fair.

 

[DopeyFish]

-Reselling without asking for microsoft's permission.
-Playing without asking formicrosoft's permission.
-Borrowing games from friends

i don't sell games or buy used games.
i don't borrow or lend games.
i am never offline. ever.

so where's the advantages?

 

[JPickford]

Why the hell, as a consumer, do you want to hammer in the idea to yourself you don't own the games? Why would ANY consumer want to actually ARGUE that? Oh, that's right, because I guess you're accepting the "inevitability", right? It's a way to cope with it; "oh they're right i never actually owned these games..." Bull. Shit.

I don't care about what any EULA says. I put down my hard earned cash on the product, I own the copy that was sold to me. I don't care about any of your semantics, or theirs, about the code on the disc apparently *not being mine* or how the data on the disc isn't mine therefore I don't own the game.

I bought the game, they no longer have it in their possession, the store no longer owns it, I do. I'm the one holding the copy I bought, not them, they don't own the copy I have, they own the other copies but I have the one I bought.

Why are you actively accepting it? I don't fucking get this mentality.

Digital games I can understand, but PHYSICAL COPIES should be able to be played on my friend's console without me having to be logged in and download it. I should be able to visit my friend's house and play local MP (if it's available) of a game he doesn't own, with a PHYSICAL DISC, and not need to login to my account in order to play.

Various other examples I could give but the point is: this affects more than just being able to buy and sell used games.

I mentally read that in the voice of Samuel L Jackson

 

[DocSeuss]

At this very moment, a little indian child who can't afford internet and a soldier deployed overseas shed one lone tear.

How would either of them know that he said this

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

I've stopped buying the discs. That currently means I have to wait for 3 months before a game drops on to GoD.

What do you personally want? The requirement to put discs in the tray every time you play a game or have a library of games immediately on hand?

I personally want the choice of a digital download or a disc. Here's an example, I bought Sticker Star digitally because it was Paper Mario. I wished I could sell it after playing it and for that reason opted to buy Luigi's Mansion physically so that if it sucked, I could sell it.

I didn't know that it took 3 months for a game to go to DD on the Marketplace. My God, even Nintendo does Day One DD.

 

[Warm Machine]

Such a redeeming feature.
Is it nice? Yes. Does it justify the consequent restrictions? No.
If you're so concerned about having to get up and change disc, buy DD.

Again how about DD?

So you're basically saying that it could have been worse? What kind of advantage is this?

The short of all of this is that an instantly available game library is ground zero moving forward. It is a PC and iOS/Android user standard now. A machine without this is not as convenient as those. So either you do it and it comes with a catch or you don't do it and your feature set looks cut off.

Lets see what PS4 does with this because they are going to have the exact same issue moving forward with how they treat the game library and how games are playable from the HDD. There is only 2 options and MS has option 1 on the 360 and option 2 on the One.

Really, If I was MS I'd probably keep the 360 status quo, have digital versions of games available day and date with retail, and simply undership physical copies to retail to force everyone into digital where they can't trade in. Which if we want to then cast blame, it is the exact same as the status quo in the PC gaming world.

So because you're clumsy we have to give up trading and lending games?

That doesn't seem fair.

Yes, that's it. It is all my fault.

 

[commedieu]

How would either of them know that he said this

the cloud works in mysterious ways.

 

[methane47]

Have you ever had a game stolen or broken? Both this have happened to me. In both cases I had to rebuy the games. Point 2 solves the problem. Point 3 is the benefit of the DRM over the typical DRM used in the PC world where the disc becomes a useless piece of plastic after verification.

If you are so concerned about getting your stuff robbed then buy DD simple. Don't make EVERYONE's life more difficult just for the couple of stolen games every year.

And specifically to your question, Nope i've never had a game stolen from me. I've lost plenty of games in my life though. But I currently have a library of Console games that is 40+. I doubt i could fit all my games on that 500GB hdd anyways, and most are games that I probably will never play again, because i dont have any interest in them.

 

[Cizard]

i don't sell games or buy used games.
i don't borrow or lend games.
i am never offline. ever.

so where's the advantages?

So you think it's a good idea for disc based games to rely on microsoft's servers to function then? People still buy and play Ps1 games without asking for Sony's permission. Would it even still be possible in 10-20 years like it is now?

And while I understand why you think having a combination of the advantages of physical and digital how do you explain the 24 hour check? Surely a one-time activation would suffice.

 

[DesertFox]

lol
"There are lots of advantages to DRM!"

*crickets*....

"Well, we'll go into the details at a later time"

 

[Raist]

The short of all of this is that an instantly available game library is ground zero moving forward. It is a PC and iOS/Android user standard now. A machine without this is not as convenient as those. So either you do it and it comes with a catch or you don't do it and your feature set looks cut off.

Lets see what PS4 does with this because they are going to have the exact same issue moving forward with how they treat the game library and how games are playable from the HDD. There is only 2 options and MS has option 1 on the 360 and option 2 on the One.

Really, If I was MS I'd probably keep the 360 status quo, have digital versions of games available day and date with retail, and simply undership physical copies to retail to force everyone into digital where they can't trade in. Which if we want to then cast blame, it is the exact same as the status quo in the PC gaming world.

And the PC and iOS/Android user standard is DD. Not physical. This is completely irrelevant.
If you care about having the game installed without worrying about the physical support and not caring about lending/trading/giving away, buy DD.

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

-Reselling without asking for microsoft's permission.
-Playing without asking for microsoft's permission.
-Borrowing games from friends

-Renting games

 

[DopeyFish]

So you think it's a good idea for disc based games to rely on microsoft's servers to function then? People still buy and play Ps1 games without asking for Sony's permission. Would it even still be possible in 10-20 years like it is now?

And while I understand why you think having a combination of the advantages of physical and digital how do you explain the 24 hour check? Surely a one-time activation would suffice.

Piracy?

one time activation guys!

Let's log in to an xbox one, go offline, log into another xbox one and whammo! TWO COPIES

-Renting games

Last game I rented was Power Rangers for SNES... so about 20 years ago... never will again.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

i don't sell games or buy used games.
i don't borrow or lend games.
i am never offline. ever.

so where's the advantages?

You can make friends IRL.

 

[N2NOther]

Why does he have to be a plant? he could just be a guy in the perfect situation for this console, and none of the rumored stuff everyone is bitching about bothers him. And he likes his money going to the creators of the content he enjoys and not some middleman who does nothing but give crap amounts of credit and sells it used for massive margins.

You do know you don't have to use a middleman and can sell the game yourself for the amount you want, right?

 

[Shosai]

lol
"There are lots of advantages to DRM!"

*crickets*....

"Well, we'll go into the details at a later time"

Seriously, I'm starting to think Spencer is fighting some kind inter-office political war with the way they've been putting out these godawful talking points.

-Renting games

Honest question though, does anyone miss renting PC games?

 

[Warm Machine]

And the PC and iOS/Android user standard is DD. Not physical. This is completely irrelevant.
If you care about having the game installed without worrying about the physical support and not caring about lending/trading/giving away, buy DD.

Consoles simply need time to bridge that gap. The customers, who often skew younger, need time to bridge that gap especially at the $60 price point. MS could have easily gone DD only here. They are giving the option right now. I suspect that in less than 5 years seeing a physical copy of a game for the One or PS4 is going to be somewhat rare for titles that are not Madden, Fifa, or whatever next gens Call of Duty is.

 

[DopeyFish]

You can make friends IRL.

If your friends are based on what you give, then you need better friends.

 

[_Ryo_]

I don't disagree that there are some advantages to DRM but I think that those advantages are outweighed by the number of disadvantages to the consumer. But I'm a junior, so what do I know?

Edit: There are only advantages if the online requirement is optional, still not enough to be okay with it though.

 

[GhaleonEB]

I'm still trying to figure out what those benefits are. I haven't heard anything.

First post nails it.

 

[methane47]

i don't sell games or buy used games.
i don't borrow or lend games.
i am never offline. ever.

so where's the advantages?

So you're ok with not being able to play your games if a server is offline for some reason?
XBL outages do happen you know.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

If your friends are based on what you give, then you need better friends.

Lending a copy Bioshock Infinite or Persona 4 to a friend is not exactly like lending money

 

[N2NOther]

Why the hell, as a consumer, do you want to hammer in the idea to yourself you don't own the games? Why would ANY consumer want to actually ARGUE that? Oh, that's right, because I guess you're accepting the "inevitability", right? It's a way to cope with it; "oh they're right i never actually owned these games..." Bull. Shit.

I don't care about what any EULA says. I put down my hard earned cash on the product, I own the copy that was sold to me. I don't care about any of your semantics, or theirs, about the code on the disc apparently *not being mine* or how the data on the disc isn't mine therefore I don't own the game.

I bought the game, they no longer have it in their possession, the store no longer owns it, I do. I'm the one holding the copy I bought, not them, they don't own the copy I have, they own the other copies but I have the one I bought.

Why are you actively accepting it? I don't fucking get this mentality.

Digital games I can understand, but PHYSICAL COPIES should be able to be played on my friend's console without me having to be logged in and download it. I should be able to visit my friend's house and play local MP (if it's available) of a game he doesn't own, with a PHYSICAL DISC, and not need to login to my account in order to play.

Various other examples I could give but the point is: this affects more than just being able to buy and sell used games.

I love every single word you used in this post and how you used them.

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

Honest question though, does anyone miss renting PC games?

I have never rented PC games but have rented console games since the NES. Not being able to rent console games would be a problem.

 

[samn]

Sure, some people won't be able to use this console because they lack internet access. But you know what? Other game machines are available. I really don't see how this is the end of the world. Services like Steam offer digital downloads locked to an account and for most people it works fine.

 

[Warm Machine]

So you're ok with not being able to play your games if a server is offline for some reason?
XBL outages do happen you know.

Right now, if XBL went down for a week I could still play all of my XBLA, and GoD games on the console they were licensed to with my purchasing gamertag. Only the Xbox Live Indie games I have would not work.

 

[DopeyFish]

So you're ok with not being able to play your games if a server is offline for some reason?
XBL outages do happen you know.

The only outage for Xbox Live that lasted for more than 24 hours was planned, and that's when it was on its own dedicated racks as opposed to on azure.

I have no worries about outages.

Xbox Live has a higher reliability than my local power company

Lending a copy Bioshock Infinite or Persona 4 to a friend is not exactly like lending money

Until they damage the disc? It is stolen or missing?

3 rules of life:

Don't talk politics, religion or lend people shit.

 

[Cizard]

Piracy?

one time activation guys!

Let's log in to an xbox one, go offline, log into another xbox one and whammo! TWO COPIES

That's not piracy, it's game sharing. And the current platforms have good systems in place to avoid/limit it that don't need to phone home every 24 hours.

 

[demosthenes]

i don't sell games or buy used games.
i don't borrow or lend games.
i am never offline. ever.

so where's the advantages?

Well let's change your name to God and we will all follow you.

I don't buy used but I sometimes sell.
I have a ton of games so I frequently lend them to friends.
I'm offline every so often b/c Time Warner Cable sucks. Oh and there's also MSFT/SNE servers going down.

 

[Stone Ocean]

For the user.

1. If you count copying disc based games to the HDD for instant play without needing the disc in the drive, that is an advantage.

2. It is also an advantage to be able to download a game you have bought in the store without needing the original disc.

3. That they check at all means that you get the convenience of point 1 and also proves that there is a secondary market possibility. They could have just as well made the discs a useless coaster after the initial verification and totally ignored the used market. Verification is there to prove that the proper owner of the game is playing the game and not utilizing a pirated or stolen copy.

This is not an advantage, this is tacking an existing model over another - digital purchases over disc.

Both systems already offer these "benefits" and you're free to choose between the pros and cons of both distribution systems. In MS's DRM case, you're shoved with the full cons of both systems for the sake of having minimalized versions of the pros.

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

Well let's change your name to God and we will all follow you.

I don't buy used but I sometimes sell.
I have a ton of games so I frequently lend them to friends.
I'm offline every so often b/c Time Warner Cable sucks. Oh and there's also MSFT/SNE servers going down.

I always knew there was something Fishy about God.

 

[DopeyFish]

That's not piracy, it's game sharing. And the current platforms have good systems in place to avoid/limit it that don't need to phone home every 24 hours.

How is that not piracy?

 

[Cizard]

How is that not piracy?

Is lending out games piracy? I agree that it'd be impossible to make it unlimited but just sharing games across multiple consoles is not piracy.

 

[BigDug13]

How is that not piracy?

You can do the same thing on STEAM. I guess they should get rid of the offline feature altogether. Screw everybody just to prevent a few people from taking advantage.

 

[DopeyFish]

So now we have people defending piracy? Nice.

 

[Bert]

The question isn't whats good about DD its whats bad about discs and the answer is nothing. Any possible benefit they could mention is already available, in fact just the other day I downloaded Limbo on a friends PS3 then left it there and we could both still play it. So XBO is a step backwards!

From a purely technical POV surely physical media is more effective way of transmitting what will be 10GB+ files to a demographic with Internet caps and limited speed?

 

[Cizard]

So now we have people defending piracy? Nice.

How am I defending piracy? Like I said the current platforms already have systems in place that severely limit game sharing but WITHOUT phoning home every 24 hours.

 

[WrenchNinja]

So now we have people defending piracy? Nice.

How is this piracy?

 

[N2NOther]

Microsoft:
1) They take a cut of used games and trade in now! Making some money they deserve, nice!

Wait. Why do they deserve money from used games? They sold the game new. Someone finished it, or didn't like it, or whatever, and sold it.

Why do they deserve some or any of the money from this sale?

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Used games don't reproduce. There can't be more used games than new games sold. Just because people return or trade back in the uses game doesn't entitle MS, the publisher or the developer to anything at that point.

I'm perfectly willing to hear why they deserve money from a second hand sale. And please spare me the "you don't own the license."

I honestly don't think this is a real post but in the event that it is, I would love to hear the answer.

 

[DopeyFish]

How am I defending piracy? Like I said the current platforms already have systems in place that severely limit game sharing but WITHOUT phoning home every 24 hours.

because you said copying on to a friends system to let them play while going to your house to play would be acceptable, no?

also: why should offline gamers be compromising my online games?

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

So now we have people defending piracy? Nice.

No, we have people defending game sharing.