Dragon's Crown Reviews

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I love how points are deducted due to the games art style being "offensive" but having hookers strip for you in GTA, or murdering innocent civilians with guns will conveniently fly over the heads off most critics. Thats not offensive at all. Girls with abnormally sized breasts are.
 
I expect this will not be a popular post, but:

I feel like I've read a lot of pieces about what role game reviewers have to play in the industry. Should they treat reviews as Consumer Reports-style writeups, i.e. "graphics on level 3 could use tightening up but the anti-aliasing makes it a solid 8.65 out of 10!" or should reviewers treat games less like products and more like pieces of art or literature? Based on all the vitriol sites like IGN get for ridiculously precise review scores and the appreciation for sites like Giant Bomb, where each individual's likes and dislikes are well-known and accepted for the most part, I assumed the trend was towards reviews as opinion piece.

But here's a review where someone gives their opinion on a game--that the grindiness of the game and the depiction of the female characters made the game less enjoyable--and both the reviewer and the site that posted it gets shit upon. Of course you're allowed to disagree with her; maybe you don't think the game is pure adolescent fantasy, or maybe you think she's right but that's totally fine with you. But to basically say her opinion is invalid, or that her review is an outrage ploy to collect clicks is just... man.

"But she had a political/moral/feminist agenda!" I see people write in this thread. Well, guess what? People have political and moral opinions; it's just you tend to notice them more when those opinions disagree with yours. Increasingly people are put off at the number of first-person shooters where you kill indiscriminately; Bioshock Infinite got a lot of flak for this very thing. And I very much disagreed with some of that criticism (mainly that the game's difficulty got in the way of enjoying the story, but also just generally that Bioshock Infinite would've been a better game without any of the violence). But nowhere in that conversation did I see people suggest that the anti-violence discussion wasn't worth having, that clearly it was driven by a political agenda that had no place in games. But that's ridiculous; of COURSE it speaks to a moral stance, that violence is not only unnecessary in games but excessive.

Even when it comes to sexual depictions, people are frustratingly inconsistent. On this very forum, people call out all sorts of Japanese games as stuff they won't ever play because "omg too moe" or "god Japan with its stupid big-boobed anime" or "fuck, I'm not a pedophile, why would I ever play that lolicon bait." But god forbid a reviewer call this out and say, "I did not like this game nearly as much because giant boobs and sexualization," because that would be beyond the pale. It's not even sexualization that's off limits in reviews any more; it's specific types of sexualization that's clearly driven by a moral agenda because it happens to match what appeals to "gamers," as opposed to sexualization that's okay to criticize because most gamers don't like anime chicks or whatever.

(And yes, I'm well aware that Dragon's Crown is a Japanese game, just to get that out of the way.)

I guess I'm not surprised that the Polygon review should be so controversial, but I'm also incredibly disappointed.

Good post and to me it should be a given that it is common sense. Unfortunately from some of the replies it seems like many here are, what is the nicest word to use...inconsistent.

I was about to reply with something similar to what I bolded in your post but you pretty much echoed my sentiments. Thanks.
 
What the hell? If there are parts of the game that are annoying you, I'd like to know when reading a review. It doesn't do anyone any good to basically lie about your feelings when putting them down on paper.

I can tell you, and explain you why. But when I know it's just my *personal* taste, that has nothing to do with the quality of the game, I will not let it figure in the score.

Why?

Because I have the responsibility to inform my reader on the quality of a game, and I won't tell him that a game is bad when it isn't.
 
I love how points are deducted due to the games art style being "offensive" but having hookers strip for you in GTA, or murdering innocent civilians with guns will conveniently fly over the heads off most critics. Thats not offensive at all. Girls with abnormally sized breasts are.

I will never understand how people can be so afraid of sexuality but on the other hand so openly endorse violence.
 
I love how points are deducted due to the games art style being "offensive" but having hookers strip for you in GTA, or murdering innocent civilians with guns will fly over the heads off most critics. Thats not offensive at all. Girls with abnormally sized breasts are.
Yeah, it's pretty disgusting.

I don't even own a PS3 or Vita and I want to go out and buy this game to support the developers.
 
Boris Vallejo people, Boris Vallejo.

Boom. It's classic fantasy like that, but with a Japanese flare. I am sick and tired of the whiny, 'I'm offended" bullshit that tries to stand in the way of games like this that are actually quite a bit more than just tits, ass and skimpy clothes. Happy to see that most of the reviews see this as well.
 
I love how points are deducted due to the games art style being "offensive" but having hookers strip for you in GTA, or murdering innocent civilians with guns will conveniently fly over the heads off most critics. Thats not offensive at all. Girls with abnormally sized breasts are.

hahaha. that's how it works. what we're used to and what we are not.
the art form of VW clearly gets attention, and it's one of a kind.
 
Okay I assumed you were trying to say that he didn't care for it or something which I find impossible to believe having read Kotaku for years. Mike Fahey loves the anime titties.

Haha no no. The VentureBeat one mentions it as well --

I actually mention Boris Vallejo in the GamesBeat review. Glad others picked up on it.

I guess the issue for some people here is not that it's bad to point out an art style isn't appealing to a reviewer, it's whether or not one's personal opinion on that art style should go into a review score. Obviously no review by one person can be completely unbiased or objective, but I think some things should be weighed accordingly. Something like bad game mechanics can be understood to be something that a lot of people playing the game would dislike and thus would influence a score more directly than something like the art style which wouldn't be as black and white.
 
two lowest scores are from two female reviewers.

dragons crown is the game that gets made the example for no real good reason.

I get skeptical, considering Odin's Sphere launched on the PS2 and no one talked about it then. Their body parts weren't as big, but still. They dressed in skimpy clothes. Now everyone in the industry gives a shit. Multi-million dollar opinions, get yourself noticed in the media, etc. etc.

I don't buy it because it's too premature and won't do anything to the industry itself. Journalist acts like their a parent of the industry sometimes. Reason I think this is because it has no universal carry over to the media which the rest of the world watches.
 
I'm gay, I can honestly say the fact that the sorceress has a pair of the biggest, jiggliest breasts I've come across is a turn off for me (similar to how excess "fan service" in anime doesn't appeal to me).

That being said...I'm not playing this game for potential sexual simulation. I'm playing it to have fun. Sure, if the Sorcerer looked like Chris Evans and walked around in a thong I might be inclined to play as him a bit more but there isn't any detraction for the character NOT being designed that way.
 
I love how points are deducted due to the games art style being "offensive" but having hookers strip for you in GTA, or murdering innocent civilians with guns will conveniently fly over the heads off most critics. Thats not offensive at all. Girls with abnormally sized breasts are.

Post of the freaking thread. Seriously.

I can't wait to play Dragon's Crown.
 
When I see people lamenting that the Polygon review "shoves personal opinions down readers' throats" or "political/social beliefs", it really bums me out.

Games can engage with social and political ideas. Surely that's self-evident enough that I don't need to cite examples, but there's a wealth of political games out there, and an entire category of "Persuasive Games" that one could sift through for case studies.

What does one do when confronted with these ideas in a game? Just ignore them? Does that make a review inherently more fair?

It'd be a mistake to presume that those reviews which don't bring up the character art in that manner are being "more objective." Not including that material is also a product of subjectivity, just as much as bringing it up is. Reviewers that don't bring it up are coming from a place where that material does not bother them, or does not seem of enough importance to warrant mentioning, and that's an opinion too.

Susan Arendt just put it nicely:


The informed gamer combines information in reviews with their own preferences. The foolish gamer believes reviews are meant as gospel truth.


What one gets from the Polygon review, and others like it, is that those who are attuned to finding the female portrayals to be sexist will likely find that it hampers their enjoyment. There's a bevy of other reviews that don't make mention of the character aesthetics in that way, so a gamer has more than enough information to check against his own preferences and inform his purchase/opinion.

Reviews are inherently subjective. And they should be! It's impossible to separate one's life experiences, preferences, and beliefs from an analysis of art - their inclusion is really the whole point of the endeavor.

If you're asking for reviews to be objective, or impersonal, then frankly, you don't understand them at all.
 
I can see the point, sure--games are weird in that there's an artistic component as well as a technical one (i.e. does it have stupid bugs, are the controls good, etc.). But even with the technical stuff there's room for opinion, just like with movie reviews, you can say that the cinematography isn't even close to technically perfect but it's still great because the imperfections lends a certain documentary quality, for example.

yeah, it's true you can't escape your own personal filters even when one is trying to be objective. However, there is so much media and trailers and information and artwork and details given the consumers on the internet of upcoming games that we can form our own opinions about a game's aesthetics well before any review goes up. Focusing on such things doesn't give us much information as potential buyers looking for gameplay details or flaws.

It tells me more about the reviewer than the game, and it could be good commentary for sure, but you can do a million commentary pieces. There's no rules on how to do a review, but I feel an adequate one should take a much more holistic approach.
 

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And the male NPCs aren't treated in this way.
No they're not. When the reviewer says this, a picture of a guy with a head the size of a ping-pong ball and never-ending shoulders and arms appears on screen. Male characters get their own dose of exaggeration that wouldn't surprise me if it rubs some people the wrong way (though I personally think that would be nonsense).

Personally I think that sexualization doesn't necessarily mean sexist. Just because a character or person has a sexualized appearance or does pin-up poses doesn't make it derogatory towards the gender.
 
Everything can and will share their expertise on politics and morality, but good luck finding someone with any real expertise on belt-scrollers.
 
"And while you're at it, if you know what's good for you you'll wear longer dresses!"

Don't twist what I'm trying to say.

I'm not saying they should censor themselves. Quite the opposite. I reckon they should ignore the heated responses and scream it from the rooftops, but marking down a games score (which is another argument we could have) because you object to it on moral grounds is just bullshit. The game is not worse off quality wise because of your personal beliefs.

I might be in the minority when I want objectivity in my game reviews but that's my view. I'm sorry if that somehow offends people.
 
No they're not. When the reviewer says this, a picture of a guy with a head the size of a ping-pong ball and never-ending shoulders and arms appears on screen. Male characters get their own dose of exaggeration that wouldn't surprise me if it rubs some people the wrong way (though I personally think that would be nonsense).

Personally I think that sexualization doesn't necessarily mean sexist. Just because a character or person has a sexualized appearance or does pin-up poses doesn't make it derogatory towards its gender.

Eh but is having huge muscles and a tiny head meant to be sexually stimulating for the potential audience it's catered to?
 
This stuff again!!! I used to be the kind of person who let overly negative or positive game reviews bother me, but as I see more and more closely how the games industry uses reviews to control sales and hype, I have decided to just rely on trusted websites and boards to determine what I am going to be interested in and/or buy.
 
I love how points are deducted due to the games art style being "offensive" but having hookers strip for you in GTA, or murdering innocent civilians with guns will conveniently fly over the heads off most critics. Thats not offensive at all. Girls with abnormally sized breasts are.

Yes. The internet's selective outrage filter is definitely on the fritz as far as Dragon's Crown is concerned.

Sleeping Dogs was probably the most sexist game I've ever played. I've never heard anyone complain about its portrayal of women.
 
I can tell you, and explain you why. But when I know it's just my *personal* taste, that has nothing to do with the quality of the game, I will not let it figure in the score.

Why?

Because I have the responsibility to inform my reader on the quality of a game, and I won't tell him that a game is bad when it isn't.

Yes, we want to know your personal tastes so we can factor that into reading a review. Try as you might, they're always going to influence a review, so the best thing to do is be as transparent as possible about your feelings and trust your readers to come to their own conclusions. I don't want a reviewer to tell me they had a fun time playing a game when they really didn't.

The fact that Mario annoys you does have something to do with the quality of the game. It's a feeling that not a lot of people share. On the other hand, a lot of people do. If you were articulate in your writing, you'd be able to explain why, so that even the people who disagree can understand your views.

Or you can hide your views, whichever.
 
I'm gay, I can honestly say the fact that the sorceress has a pair of the biggest, jiggliest breasts I've come across is a turn off for me (similar to how excess "fan service" in anime doesn't appeal to me).

That being said...I'm not playing this game for potential sexual simulation. I'm playing it to have fun. Sure, if the Sorcerer looked like Chris Evans and walked around in a thong I might be inclined to play as him a bit more but there isn't any detraction for the character NOT being designed that way.

here's your fanservice - hope you like it burly! :B

dragons_crown_dwarves_12.jpg
 
People's opinions about almost everything are definitely colored by their morals and ideals. So what? If you don't agree with her, then disregard her review. But I ask again: if you already decided that you're going to buy it and your feelings about it seem cemented, what value are reviews for you anyway? Are you just looking for validation of your feelings about the game? Is it such a big deal that there's a review out there that you disagree with?

These people have far bigger megaphones to spout their opinions than any regular person, and it seems like the majority opinion we're getting out of these big megaphones these days is "eww boobs are gross! Women can never be weak! I want strong female characters everywhere!" They're clearly using their position to try to steer the direction they think the industry should go - should people who disagree with them just shut up?

I'm not condoning harassing the reviewer or calling her names, but I don't see anything wrong with calling out her and others' moralistic crusade either.

IMO, she clearly doesn't want the art style of Dragon's Crown to exist or be created any more. I do. I think her review is tainted w/ a moralistic streak that really has no business being there, just as I don't want a Christian or other religious bent either. If you're offended by something in a game (or a movie, or a book), I really don't care - and I don't think it should weigh in on the score.

Not the same reviewer, but another perfect tainted Polygon review example: Lollipop Chainsaw.
 
Polygon should be a banned site.


anyways, DAY 1!
I agree, if you make a horrendous looking game (like state of decay, a great game no doubt but terrible to look it) you get no points docked but if your character design is deemed exploitive by some clown then you get a ton of demerits?
It's crazy, polygon to me has some great writers and articles but there reviews are buttcheeks
 
I have zero problem with Polygon deducting points for overly embarrassing, sexist things in games.

Dragon Crown should be called out, even if the underlying game is a good one.
 
I love how points are deducted due to the games art style being "offensive" but having hookers strip for you in GTA, or murdering innocent civilians with guns will conveniently fly over the heads off most critics. Thats not offensive at all. Girls with abnormally sized breasts are.

Truth, in a nutshell.

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I love how points are deducted due to the games art style being "offensive" but having hookers strip for you in GTA, or murdering innocent civilians with guns will conveniently fly over the heads off most critics. Thats not offensive at all. Girls with abnormally sized breasts are.

And that's exactly my problem. You can dislike the game for whatever reason but first off you need to be fair. Second of all you need to look at the game objectively. The video review even says oh this is good, that's fun, this might need work and was boring a bit. It was very objective until the points were docked just because they didn't like the...how to say this...graphics in their opinion objectified women. The number I'd actually have been ok with just based off what she mentioned but she made it a point to go oh it's getting docked just because I think it's sexist. That's when it's not fair to the game.
 

Dudes trying to shut down discussion by framing women being critical of problematic depictions of women in games as being attention seekers or "hit fishing" is really condescending and dishonest. It's a really really gross trend and is far, FAR creepier than anything in Dragon's Crown or any other game.
 
Don't twist what I'm trying to say.

I'm not saying they should censor themselves. Quite the opposite. I reckon they should ignore the heated responses and scream it from the rooftops, but marking down a games score (which is another argument we could have) because you object to it on moral grounds is just bullshit. The game is not worse off quality wise because of your personal beliefs.

I might be in the minority when I want objectivity in my game reviews but that's my view. I'm sorry if that somehow offends people.

exactly. if you give a game a bad- or high score that was heavly influenced by your own tastes, maybe you shouldn't be a reviewer at all.

reviews shouldn't be a 10, a 7, a 3 and a 0. if then, what are the gamers to do? buy a game based on one review? then which one?

a consistent score but varied reviews would do. in a perfect world.
 
I expect this will not be a popular post, but:

I feel like I've read a lot of pieces about what role game reviewers have to play in the industry. Should they treat reviews as Consumer Reports-style writeups, i.e. "graphics on level 3 could use tightening up but the anti-aliasing makes it a solid 8.65 out of 10!" or should reviewers treat games less like products and more like pieces of art or literature? Based on all the vitriol sites like IGN get for ridiculously precise review scores and the appreciation for sites like Giant Bomb, where each individual's likes and dislikes are well-known and accepted for the most part, I assumed the trend was towards reviews as opinion piece.

But here's a review where someone gives their opinion on a game--that the grindiness of the game and the depiction of the female characters made the game less enjoyable--and both the reviewer and the site that posted it gets shit upon. Of course you're allowed to disagree with her; maybe you don't think the game is pure adolescent fantasy, or maybe you think she's right but that's totally fine with you. But to basically say her opinion is invalid, or that her review is an outrage ploy to collect clicks is just... man.

"But she had a political/moral/feminist agenda!" I see people write in this thread. Well, guess what? People have political and moral opinions; it's just you tend to notice them more when those opinions disagree with yours. Increasingly people are put off at the number of first-person shooters where you kill indiscriminately; Bioshock Infinite got a lot of flak for this very thing. And I very much disagreed with some of that criticism (mainly that the game's difficulty got in the way of enjoying the story, but also just generally that Bioshock Infinite would've been a better game without any of the violence). But nowhere in that conversation did I see people suggest that the anti-violence discussion wasn't worth having, that clearly it was driven by a political agenda that had no place in games. But that's ridiculous; of COURSE it speaks to a moral stance, that violence is not only unnecessary in games but excessive.

Even when it comes to sexual depictions, people are frustratingly inconsistent. On this very forum, people call out all sorts of Japanese games as stuff they won't ever play because "omg too moe" or "god Japan with its stupid big-boobed anime" or "fuck, I'm not a pedophile, why would I ever play that lolicon bait." But god forbid a reviewer call this out and say, "I did not like this game nearly as much because giant boobs and sexualization," because that would be beyond the pale. It's not even sexualization that's off limits in reviews any more; it's specific types of sexualization that's clearly driven by a moral agenda because it happens to match what appeals to "gamers," as opposed to sexualization that's okay to criticize because most gamers don't like anime chicks or whatever.

(And yes, I'm well aware that Dragon's Crown is a Japanese game, just to get that out of the way.)

I guess I'm not surprised that the Polygon review should be so controversial, but I'm also incredibly disappointed.
I completely agree, and this a particularly well written response, thank you.
 
that's actually what i look for in a review, really.

something that educates the masses - that isn't warped by personal distaste or bias, regardless of it being postive or negative.

when reviewers end a review that clearly demonstrate their Own distaste for the design that is placed subjectively, that is when i discredit a reviewer.

at least, that's how i see it.

Then don't read Polygon reviews. They are subscribers to the "New Games Journalism" fad that died out about ten years ago. It's all about how it feels, facts be damned. However, they fail to differentiate between the reviews (as in Giant Bomb) through the score being decided by committee. Hence, we (usually) don't know what the biases of the reviewer (by which I mean whether Person X likes puzzle games and hates FPSes, or whatever), but instead by what Mr. A Gies decides. Since every decision he makes are incorrect, all Polygon reviews are shite.

I will give credit is that in this case, the biases of the reviewer are plain as day, and anyone who disagrees with her opinion on the art style are free to mentally add a +2. This doesn't get round the other crippling problems with Polygon's reviews (specifically Mr. Wrong's involvement and their editorial approach being utterly incompatible with New Games Journalism) To be honest, if there's one thing I do want to see more often, is interactive, pick-yer-own score reviews, which might get round this problem. Editorial opinion is the default, but fill in our handy questionnaire and we'll adjust the score to your preferences.

The other problem is Metacritic, but we've already gone round pointing out exactly why Metacritic is shite enough times, and besides this is the only one of two less-than-positive reviews listed there (the other being Escapist's 3 stars out of five, which exhibits a problem with Metacritic).
 
People's opinions about almost everything are definitely colored by their morals and ideals. So what? If you don't agree with her, then disregard her review. But I ask again: if you already decided that you're going to buy it and your feelings about it seem cemented, what value are reviews for you anyway? Are you just looking for validation of your feelings about the game? Is it such a big deal that there's a review out there that you disagree with?

I kind of understand what you're trying to say, but I somewhat can't agree with this. Game reviews are not immune to criticism, just like games aren't immune to critics. I think discussing what we don't like about this review is just as important as the review itself, and telling this person to disregard this review is I think, rather counterproductive to why this thread exists. Are we not here to discuss what we think these review scores mean, or is this thread just a dumbed down Metacritic dump?
 
If you're asking for reviews to be objective, or impersonal, then frankly, you don't understand them at all.

And that's why reviews are an utterly and completely pointless exercise.

I'm not offended by Polygon's review, but I have been offended by reviews in the past. There is a layer of objectivity that is expected. A review is not an opinion piece. I concede that all articles have spin. It's impossible to not have outside influences shape your views and your writing. At the same time, using a review in a publication as your own personal blog is shameful. I've seen reviewers admit that they write reviews as if "they're trying to sell a product to a friend." Stuff like that just makes me shake my head.
 
I love how points are deducted due to the games art style being "offensive" but having hookers strip for you in GTA, or murdering innocent civilians with guns will conveniently fly over the heads off most critics. Thats not offensive at all. Girls with abnormally sized breasts are.

This. What's up with different people reacting differently to different things in different contexts? It's madness.
 
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