overconfidence
Banned
Dreamgazer
Member
Sorry but this is just off. You say you can't get over how deluded some people are about seeing the good things Playstation has in store for them and yet you post all this like you're in the know more than Sony themselves. So far Sony has done so much for the consumer in recent times. There is a reason why many of us are excited by the Playstation 4. It is not because of Sony's claims of "love for the gamer" but because of what Sony is actually *doing* and *showing* us that is exciting us.
"and everything Sony does they do it for their love of the consumer? Get real, Sony were playing the 'wait and see' game, as they always do. Sony's E3 was about taking the backlash MS was copping and running with it, same as they are doing now."
There is also nothing wrong with the "wait and see" approach; it shows a cautious side that wants to analyze the competition before taking a step - it is smart and effective. You say Sony's E3 was about fighting back the MS backlash whereas they spent like 2-3% of the conference discussing it. You also said that they did the same yesterday. Newsflash - they made a statement about it that lasted 30 seconds - hardly the focus of a conference that lasted almost 2 hours!
"If it were not for Live, their network would still be amess, they played constant catch up. They tried with their Sixaxis to get into Nintendos space, then again later with the Move. They were constantly trying to match things like cross game invites, party chat, those stupid things like Achievements that of course nobody wanted.....and Home? Wtf was that supposed to be? And now after realising people will pay for multiplayer, surprise surprise, they put multiplayer behind a paywall"
How do you know that if it were not for live their network would be a mess still? If that is the case we can ask the same of Nintendo's network - why is it still a mess? Should it not have improved now that the holy grail of Xbox Live has shown the light? The Sixaxis was part of a time where they made MANY stupid decisions, alongside the ridiculous price. As for the Move, they tried it and it worked it to a very small degree and hence they barely focus on it! At least they barely shove it down our throats like kinect constantly was. And so what if they tried doing what the Wii did? What the did worked very well and naturally the competitor would like to follow what works when not coming up with something on their own completely.
Also, newsflash for you - just because neogaf does not talk about Home much at all does not mean it was for nothing. Home actually has a very active community. Games have become a bigger aspect of Home and there is a reason why it continues to get weekly updates all over till this very day. Just because you and I and most hardcore gamers don't care for it much does not mean it was a bad idea.
Also - what's so bad about paying for multiplayer when it can help ensure a better service overall and I continue to get the insane amount of free stuff I do with PS+?
"Sony are no better or worse than their competition, there were just fortunate enough to see the massive backlash MS copped and used it to their advantage by staying the fuck away from what MS was doing and hammering viewers with this rosy sentiment that they would never do such a thing; but you can be damned sure they would have jumped on it immediately had there been no up roar."
Okay.
So...it was the consumer voice?
This whole line of argument is ridiculous. Pre-order numbers are nothing more and nothing less than quantified consumer response. If you want to criticise MS for the nature of their reversal, criticise them for the fact that they apparently saw nothing wrong with their policies until consumer response (which includes preorders) told them how idiotic they were. Criticising a company for responding to market demands is dippy.
"Sony are no better or worse than their competition, there were just fortunate enough to see the massive backlash MS copped and used it to their advantage by staying the fuck away from what MS was doing and hammering viewers with this rosy sentiment that they would never do such a thing; but you can be damned sure they would have jumped on it immediately had there been no up roar."
Just fortunate enough to see the backlash??? You act like their entire conference and strategy focused on countering MS's errors whereas they made up a couple of minutes at the E3 conference and 30 seconds last night. If that is what you think Sony has been up to since the PS4 reveal - taking advantage of Microsoft errors - then I truly wonder how little you know about all this. Lest you forget, the amazing PS4 conference in February took place a full 2-3 months before Microsoft even discussed a possible Xbox conference. Sony has factually done far more in the past few months than simply "taking advantage of Microsoft's errors". Your post just takes every possible credit away the amazing stuff that Sony has done in the past few months for some of us fans.
Just fortunate enough to see the backlash??? You act like their entire conference and strategy focused on countering MS's errors whereas they made up a couple of minutes at the E3 conference and 30 seconds last night. If that is what you think Sony has been up to since the PS4 reveal - taking advantage of Microsoft errors - then I truly wonder how little you know about all this. Lest you forget, the amazing PS4 conference in February took place a full 2-3 months before Microsoft even discussed a possible Xbox conference. Sony has factually done far more in the past few months than simply "taking advantage of Microsoft's errors". Your post just takes every possible credit away the amazing stuff that Sony has done in the past few months for some of us fans.
It's this naivety of people who disagree with this that I can't understand. If not consumer spending, then what is consumer voice? Online petitions?
massivekettle
Member
You are funny. Let's not pretend that corporations care more about consumer goodwill than bolstering their EBITDA and Net Income lines. Sony wants your money as much as Microsoft wants. Besides, who knows? Had Microsoft been successful with these DRM policies, Sony would have introduced them in a heartbeat - let's not forget that they are now charging for PSN.
Don't see what's wrong with Microsoft's approach here. It seems like they can't win at all here; introduce DRM policies (gets criticised) - remove said policies (gets criticised).
Mohonky
Member
Yes i am getting passive aggressive as lately, i cant enter a single thread for news about anything non-Sony without seeing the thread getting trolled to shit. Barely a single Wii U or Xbox One thread is worth reading because it's all wank at the moment with how Nintendo is doomed, MS hates you and cant be trusted. Heaven forbid I try to read a few threads expecting any actual discussion happening.
Secondly, i do t care about the other posters history / place of employment / inside knowledge or industry etc. their point is correct that the 180's are purely done in commercial interest and has nothing to do with pleasing the masses to make them all feel good about themselves. How ever as many in this thread and just about any other thread I enter, whether its news for PS4 or Xbox One, I cant view the thread without seeing the circle jerk going on about how MS is this big evil entity trying to screw everyone over while their competition is some Saintly do gooder who only has their consumers needs at heart.
None of these companies do. They exist to make money, they'll do and say whatever it takes to get the consumer on their side and in turn, giving them their money and they will push the limits of how far they can screw the customer out of their dollar before it starts to negatively effect their bottom line. Its a balancing act of what they can get away with while maintaining customer confidence and spending.
Melchiah
Member
Great post, and I think it perfectly illustrates the reasoning behind the jab.
Yup, not elegant. I didn't like it. That tweet is much better.
That is true, without that money a company cannot continue to exist. The thing is some of them take steps to show their care, be it artificial or not, and some of us consumers are happy about their actions that seemingly justify their claims of care. Whether they're playing us or not is not really relevant to me as a gamer. What matters to me is the level of service I get and the games that I get.
LiquidSolid
Member
Misguided is being very, very kind, personally I'd go with fucking stupid.
Alx
Member
Well you were the one bringing sport and politics as examples of "professional" behaviour.
And I don't watch Apple keynotes, but I suppose my opinion still stands for them.
I don't see it that way at all, sorry. You don't get to tell me 'I'm wrong' on this.
Consoles are catching up to PC's and having to deal with similar problems as they get increasingly 'online-focused' and digital content distribution gets bigger and bigger. Microsoft got ahead of themselves with how they wanted to tackle those issues. Calling that 'evil' seems quite overdramatic to me. Just my perspective. This isn't something that can be proven either way.
zomgbbqftw
Banned
It was being absolutely trounced by the PS4 more than their shitshow. If PS4 pre-orders had been as poor they wouldn't have made the changes.
I'm critical of MS and their executives for even trying to pull this shit in the first place. I'm also critical of gamers for having such short memories who want to forgive the same bullshit as well just because there is a shiny game they want to play on it.
The fact that MS thought they could do it and get away with it, or even tried to push it as a positive just made the whole saga worse.
The consumer response actually came before E3 with the #PS4noDRM campaign. MS didn't respond to that one bit. They, like many on GAF, thought that it was just a minority of vocal hardcore and that the majority were too stupid to realise (or words to that effect) what they were changing.
There is literally nothing to praise in them doing a 180. I'm not saying Sony picked the path they did because they somehow love consumers more than other companies. That is patently untrue, I'm sure if there was a way to get consumers on side while clamping down on their rights Sony would pursue that strategy. However, the executives at Sony know better than that and picked the strategy that was good for everyone. MS picked the strategy that was good for them and their partners and completely disregarded the real decision makers, consumers. That is not something we, as consumers and gamers, should forgive. MS need to be taught a lesson for their anti-consumer bullshit, and by the looks of things it is going to happen. The pre-order figures for Xbone are absolutely shocking. The intent to fuck over consumers was there, just because they were unable to follow through with that without doing their own business grievous harm is irrelevant.
MrJustinius
Member
I literally antoniobanderas.gif'd when I heard it. Think it's fair but any more from here and it could get tiresome.
I don't think it's necessarily naïveté, I think it's mostly a way of thinking about companies whereby we ascribe to them a range of intentions that we really shouldn't.
I mean, think about it this way, suppose that MS changed the Xbone after the #NoDRM campaign*, citing the 'consumer voice' as the reason. Would that be more commendable than waiting for pre-order numbers? Would it indicate a commitment to their customers? No, because their concern is exactly the same: they're worried that Xbone wont sell enough units. We mistakenly attribute various intentions to MS as a corporate body that we might attribute to a friend asking for advice.
* For what it's worth, at the time there were a lot of people involved in the campaign who were arguing that it shouldn't be aimed at MS too, because if Sony didn't implement DRM then MS would be forced to back down. I certainly hope those people aren't now slamming MS for 'not listening to the consumer voice'.
You didn't really address my point, more like aired your grievances at MS. That's fine, you can feel aggrieved at MS for as long as you want to and like you say, things are absolutely not going their way and they're going to have to put a lot of work and effort into Xbone before the majority of gamers buy it. And I agree, the fact that they tried it in the first place needs to have a measured consumer response: MS need to understand that such policies are simply not going to fly. But, again, to insist that they didn't listen to the consumer voice because they 'only' changed the policies when preorder data came in (which, for what it's worth, we can only infer rather than claim to know categorically) strikes me as absurd, and as I said above, their changing it in response to the #NoDRM campaign would show absolutely no more concern on their part for the 'consumer voice' than changing it for preorder numbers.
TurkishDLite
Banned
Childish corporation talk
D
Deleted member 125677
Unconfirmed Member
I think it was a bit embarrassing, tbh. It was not that funny, and he didn't seem to get the sort of reaction he wanted from the crowd. But no big deal.
All I wanted at that point in the conference was a date!
All I wanted at that point in the conference was a date!
Who does it hurt and what does it accomplish?
#deep
The_Hitcher89
Member
I can see why they do it, but I'm getting a bit bored of it tbh. Time to start making moves to promote the PS4 launch and convince me that its worth being there day 1, rather than preventing me from getting an Xbox One.
Dreamgazer
Member
Yes I did, I stated that jabs are perfectly normal and can still be professional in a competitive environment. This is true when you listen to a political debate or sports interviews. You somehow went to the extreme end to interpret jabs to be "excessive fan behaviors" and "carnival of smear campaigns". Neither of which falls under common definition of the word, which is to mean a verbal mockery.
That said, I still don't know what your opinion is.
Is it "All jabs are the equivalent of excessive fan behaviors and smear campaigns that shows a complete lack of professionalism"?
and you truly think so of any keynote with jabs in them?
Steverulez
Member
The E3 stuff was fine, because they were giving us information about the console, and aiming a few shots Microsoft, no real problem with that.
The Gamescom stuff was just underhanded, shows how concerned Sony still are about Microsoft to feel the need to keep doing it, and with Yoshida twitter dig as well. It strikes me as the sort of things that makes you get arrogant and complacent which is exactly what people don't like about Microsoft and exactly what Sony were like at the beginning of last generation.
More importantly, I'm disappointing at how few "AAA" retail games Sony have announced. Nothing wrong with showing off the Indie stuff, but its not going to get me to buy the console.
The Gamescom stuff was just underhanded, shows how concerned Sony still are about Microsoft to feel the need to keep doing it, and with Yoshida twitter dig as well. It strikes me as the sort of things that makes you get arrogant and complacent which is exactly what people don't like about Microsoft and exactly what Sony were like at the beginning of last generation.
More importantly, I'm disappointing at how few "AAA" retail games Sony have announced. Nothing wrong with showing off the Indie stuff, but its not going to get me to buy the console.
Melchiah
Member
It was not about being too early, or having too bold vision for today, like some apologists are trying to paint the issue. It was about taking away consumers' rights without giving them anything back. At least Steam gives you a plenty of games, which you can still play in offline mode, at significantly reduced prices in return. There was no guarantee, that Microsoft would have offered the same. In fact, given Microsoft's history it's quite reasonable to assume, that if they had implemented the DRM and gained a market leader status, they wouldn't have had any compelling reason to do any favors for the consumers. Whereas the consumers would have no choice but to comply, much like it's been under the Windows monopoly.
gamemadmax
Member
Marvel
could never
When you put it like that, nothing and no one I guess.
I agree, rather than wasting all that ten seconds of time taking potshots at Microsoft, they should have had some sort of big hour-long event to show off a bunch of new stuff for the PS4.
A real missed opportunity.
immortal-joe
Member
Can never say this enough. I repeat this time and again every time this topic of MS "listening to the consumer" pops up.
They've heard you since well before the unveiling, and waaaay before E3. They choose not to listen.
What they listened to was the cold hard preorder numbers.
Yes, Sony's job is to make money, but they recognized that making that money goes hand in hand with making the consumer happy, and NOT fucking them over while making them look the other way with vague PR talk and exclusives.
THAT is the distinction guys like me are making.
Maybe tomorrow, the tables turn. But today? Fuck Microsoft.
In the end it still turns out better for everyone, no?
immortal-joe
Member
and more power to all who enjoy the new policies. My post is just in response to the notion that my decision to not support MS even after all these 180's is somehow unfair or illogical.
I liked it =) I liked at E3 too. And I want MS to get back at them! I'm totally a PS4 guy, but there must be something MS can slap Sony around with. MS presentations are just buzzwords with presenters that for some reason come off as real douchebags, inflating everything they show off and bring up everything as if it was new, inventive and something that everyone wants.
Canis lupus
Member
Whats with Move and Wonderbook on the list? Were they anti-consumer?
The Move was a was part of the "me too" motion control movement that both MS and Sony went through to try and compete with Nintendo after the Wii's success.
Impeccable
Member
If you say so. For me personally it's going to take more than a couple reversals to prove their intentions going forward and it's causing me to take pause on even considering a Xbox One for the foreseeable future.
Just one guy though.
why would you get a win out of making a mistake and fixing it, that shouldn't be seen as a positive thing, thats just getting back to 0.
fi3rypho3nix
Banned
This.
Captain Tuttle
Member
It didn't bother me, Sony certainly didn't need to do it though, they're doing fine. Felt kind of out of place coming from them though.