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[Max Knight]

Most "cinematic experience" games have ham-fisted stories that take themselves too seriously, and they use that story as a poor excuse for simplistic, shallow gameplay.

FPS games control like shit on analog controllers.

Indie games that deliberately downgrade the graphical quality of their art to look "retro" are usually bad and sell solely on aesthetics. On the rare occasion they are good, the art direction does nothing but sully what would otherwise be a perfectly good game.

You are not entitled to see all of a game's content just because you bought it. Comparing video games to any other entertainment medium in this regard is disingenuous.

Digital will never be a completely valid replacement for physical games. It is only an "inevitability" in the sense that eventually all big publishers will force it on us whether the market wants it or not. Many of us will stop buying new games when this happens, and that's fine.

"Gamer" is a valid label for a gaming enthusiast. Regardless of how much you reject useless labels (man), social groups based on specific activities are a thing. Sorry.

Edit: To elaborate on my indie game comment, I don't have anything against indie games that don't have state-of-the-art graphics and sound. It just annoys me when indie developers deliberately target graphics that look "like an NES game." It's not even just indies, either: Capcom did this with Mega Man 9 and 10. I love both of those games, but I bought them because they're Mega Man games, not because they look like NES games. If anything, the fact that they look like NES games made me hesitate to try them, for fear that they had little else to offer other than looking old.

 

[Scrabble]

Thats an entirely different way to talk about this issue than saying 99,99% of all Indies are shit and even though I dont agree with you, thats actually an opinion I can understand.

But this (I know you didnt say it but its what started the whole debate and you said you agree with it):


is just ridiculously stupid.

Don't take statements like "99.99%" literally, especially in a thread about voicing your controversial opinion.

 

[PKrockin]

In other words:

"Please for the love of God give me new JRPGs to play! I have absolutely zero standards about how well they play or how good they look or how nice they sound! I don't care how unartistic these games might be! I have all the free time and money in the world, please let me throw it at you! Please!"

Life is too short for handheld games.

If you have a problem with low budget games existing you should just say so.

 

[Toma]

Don't take statements like "99.99%" literally, especially in a thread about voicing your controversial opinion.

It doesnt stop there. "Laughable" graphics/sound/gameplay? Is that not condescending to anyone who actually likes simpler graphics? I can understand someone saying he personally doesnt like simple pixel graphics with the graphics example, but "laughable"?

Come on. I mean seriously.

 

[jroc74]

Ok I have a few...



3. And so far TLoU (42% according to my save file) it's overrated as well...

I agree somewhat with TLoU. I ment to inlcude it in my post. I see very few ppl mention the atmosphere breaking glitches, I know I cant be the only one.

 

[jman2050]

The vast majority of "indie" games are bad. There is a substantial subset that are very very good mind you, including some of my favorite games ever, but the majority are bad. This shouldn't be a surprise, but for some people it is.

F2P is a scourge on the industry that should not be tolerated on any level, no matter how seemingly "fair" an individual game's implementation is. The effectiveness and pervasiveness of the psychological techniques used to squeeze money out of players are only going to get worse over time, not better. I refuse to be a party to it.

The Genesis Sonic games are better than any Mario game. No, there are no exceptions.

 

[KHlover]

Don't take statements like "99.99%" literally, especially in a thread about voicing your controversial opinion.

Scratch the word "popular" behind my expanded quote and I'll continue to stand behind my statement. There's a reason most indie games never leave platforms like Desura etc. Not palatable to the general consumer.

I also continue to think that Indie games get better scores than many games by big companies solely for the sake of being Indie, I've listed some examples in my expanded quote above.

 

[Max Knight]

The vast majority of "indie" games are bad. There is a substantial subset that are very very good mind you, including some of my favorite games ever, but the majority are bad. This shouldn't be a surprise, but for some people it is.

Yup.

F2P is a scourge on the industry that should not be tolerated on any level, no matter how seemingly "fair" an individual game's implementation is. The effectiveness and pervasiveness of the psychological techniques used to squeeze money out of players are only going to get worse over time, not better. I refuse to be a party to it.

Yup.

The Genesis Sonic games are better than any Mario game. No, there are no exceptions.

Hahaha...NOPE. Definitely controversial.

I also continue to think that Indie games get better scores than many games by big companies solely for the sake of being Indie, I've listed some examples in my expanded quote above.

I agree with this. As solid as a lot of indie games are, it's pretty obvious to me that a lot of them get a "for an indie game" clause attached to their review scores.

 

[inm8num2]

I don't see the vast majority of indie games as "bad".

The issue is that many of them are quite similar, and few set themselves apart from the pack. From a distance they all look like the same family of 2D platformers.

 

[Skilletor]

Most games suck. Let's not single out indies for the purposes of an argument.

 

[Skenzin]

I like SMB 2 more than 1 or 3.

 

[Red Mage]

In other words:

"Please for the love of God give me new JRPGs to play! I have absolutely zero standards about how well they play or how good they look or how nice they sound! I don't care how unartistic these games might be! I have all the free time and money in the world, please let me throw it at you! Please!"

Life is too short for handheld games.

Let me guess: a handheld killed your parents in a back alleyway as you were leaving the opera.

As for being artistic, I guess it depends on how you use the term. If you're a graphics whore, then sure, the handhelds aren't for you, and neither are most RPGs. If, however, you look beyond that to story, design, music, and characters, then you're wrong. Radiant Historia, Yggdril Union, and many others were great, if one can get past the system limitations.

 

[Corronchilejano]

I've enjoyed Nintendo games more than any other game this gen (wow).

I've enjoyed indie games more than AAA games this gen too.

Maybe its a phase, I dunno.

 

[Metzhara]

I will now say what I say to my friends and they normally think I'm crazy:

Mario games haven't been interesting or innovative in a long time. I'd rather just play the original or Mario 64... and then for nostalgia.
Zelda games aren't interesting to me at all (since SNES) and I feel they should evolve into a more mature contented title to release the great lore they have potentially building up.
(In general, I feel Nintendo needs to grow up. Not disregard its roots, but try becoming a teenager at least while still maintaining it's everyone friendly mindset in other places, even if this means brand new IPs.)
Final Fantasy VII is overrated and, at best, an example of how stacking style over substance proves the "halo effect" is alive and well in video games (loving one aspect and thus justifying all others.)
The Metal Gear series (MGS2, 3 in particular) are terrible games with stories that aren't intelligent. The use of deliberately inflated notions and convoluted plot somehow convince people that "if you don't get it, you're just not smart enough." In reality, the controls are paltry and the execution lacks. The one thing it has in spades is "style" but style isn't something I prefer over gameplay. Ok... 4 was pretty epic at the end though.

And since I'm releasing all of this venom... I dislike Star Wars as well. Sure, this probably invalidated any thing I say (if you're still with me after the MGS opinion). Thanks for the opportunity to sound like the guy under a bridge though.
"The guv'ment planted radios in our heads..." -Adam

 

[uncleslappy]

Minimalism is an artistic tool to focus in on specific themes, ideas or mechanics.

Journey uses minimalism to focus on nothing. It is an empty game, like a microscope being used to analyze an empty slide. It's a platformer that punishes you for experimenting by limiting your motions and forcing the player to collect jumps, and it's a vapid, theme-less short story told via static cutscenes.

I can see where you'd think this is you played the experience solo, but did you play it online with a partner? It focuses on relationships without the ability to fully communicate - like two people speaking different languages. I found it a completely beautiful experience and was moved to tears by the end.

 

[aHebrewMenagerie]

Halo 3's campaign sucked.

 

[TheBlueBomber]

I HATED, and i mean HATED Bioshock Infinite

 

[StoopKid]

The wii u is basically a 360 with a shitty gamepad.

 

[Derrick01]

Most games suck. Let's not single out indies for the purposes of an argument.

They just have more sucky games because they're so cheap and easy to make. That should be obvious though. When you're making a AAA game every 3 years then even if they suck you're going to be outpaced by the thousands of indies out there.

 

[qq more]

They just have more sucky games because they're so cheap and easy to make. That should be obvious though. When you're making a AAA game every 3 years then even if they suck you're going to be outpaced by the thousands of indies out there.

You're right on that. But that doesn't change that there's still plenty of quality indie games for people to play.

 

[sqwarlock]

Got one more:

I'm extremely tired of the, "Gaben is a god. PC MASTER RACE" stuff, even if it's said "ironically". It's just irritating at this point.

 

[JC Lately]

Here are a couple for you:

Even when judged by the standards of its time, Earthbound is vastly overrated.

Anita has it backwards: Sexism in video games doesn't harm women, it insults men. It is the industry saying to 60% of its audience that they are such a slave to their own genitalia that they wont play X game unless all the women in said game are either tarted up or reduced to possessable items by the narrative.

Mario 64 was bloated and without focus.

Geno was a shit character, stop asking for him to show up in Smash.

FF VIII was the second best FF. The first best? XII.

The plot of Kingdom Hearts is internally consistent within its own rules.

 

[ThaGuy]

The ps2 was my least favorite console out of the ps2/xbox/gamecube. It was still damn good though.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

Got one more:

I'm extremely tired of the, "Gaben is a god. PC MASTER RACE" stuff, even if it's said "ironically". It's just irritating at this point.

Yup. Good way to go, but missing out on a lot of key titles and has a very expensive entry price if you want to keep up. Consoles aren't half as dumb as they insist.

 

[StoopKid]

Got one more:

I'm extremely tired of the, "Gaben is a god. PC MASTER RACE" stuff, even if it's said "ironically". It's just irritating at this point.

This.

 

[PKrockin]

Got one more:

I'm extremely tired of the, "Gaben is a god. PC MASTER RACE" stuff, even if it's said "ironically". It's just irritating at this point.

I got banned for using PC master race "ironically" over a year ago, so I guess the mods agree.

Still better than "Please understand"

 

[Derrick01]

You're right on that. But that doesn't change that there's still plenty of quality indie games for people to play.

So I keep hearing but I've yet to find these elusive great indie games.

 

[Red Mage]

Got one more:

I'm extremely tired of the, "Gaben is a god. PC MASTER RACE" stuff, even if it's said "ironically". It's just irritating at this point.

This. It is slowly turning my apathy towards PC gaming to a dislike of it.

 

[qq more]

So I keep hearing but I've yet to find these elusive great indie games.

I don't even actively look for indie games but Cave Story would be a good start. I've enjoyed Terraria and Trine 2 with friends a whole bunch. Minecraft gets pretty addicting too.

I've heard good of titles like Super Meat Boy (which i still have on my steam library, just untouched)

 

[PKrockin]

So I keep hearing but I've yet to find these elusive great indie games.

Well, I'm not even looking, but I've found Nethack, Spelunky, and Super Meat Boy were pretty great.

 

[Arthr2ShdsJcksn]

Two worlds is a great game. This isn't trying to be funny... I really enjoyed it.

 

[rosaceadude2112]

So I keep hearing but I've yet to find these elusive great indie games.

look no further than Mount and Blade: Warband, friend. adventure awaits!

 

[Rafterman]

Got one more:

I'm extremely tired of the, "Gaben is a god. PC MASTER RACE" stuff, even if it's said "ironically". It's just irritating at this point.

I'm primarily a PC gamer and I'm sick of it as well. First off, Valve is as overrated as you can get in gaming, and the Gabe worship around here is downright creepy.

 

[-PXG-]

The industry needs another crash/ reboot. AAA, huge budget, Hollywood homogenous bullshit isn't sustainable. Mobile and F2P in their current firms aren't either. Mid tier priced games and indies need to be embraced much more.

 

[hardcastlemccormick]

Minimalism is an artistic tool to focus in on specific themes, ideas or mechanics.

Journey uses minimalism to focus on nothing. It is an empty game, like a microscope being used to analyze an empty slide. It's a platformer that punishes you for experimenting by limiting your motions and forcing the player to collect jumps, and it's a vapid, theme-less short story told via static cutscenes.

I can see where you'd think this is you played the experience solo, but did you play it online with a partner? It focuses on relationships without the ability to fully communicate - like two people speaking different languages. I found it a completely beautiful experience and was moved to tears by the end.

No, I definitely played Journey online, and found that as worthless as the rest of the game. I see none of the themes you suggest in the game itself. The game never lets you foster a relationship, nor do the mechanics even allow you to, and nothing of value is could even be expressed if you had the opportunity. It's not like there's any question as to what you're supposed to be doing at any given moment.

The game uses the cultural tools we have appropriated to generate "meaning" but Journey has none. Even the meaning you gave it runs counterpoint to what the game actually has you do. It's the blank canvas of games; you can bring all you want to it, but in the end that's not the game itself which is thematically and mechanically empty, void of any innovation or worth (aside from the aesthetics, which are occasionally nice). The online just hangs a mirror over the blank canvas to remind you that somebody else is looking at this emptiness, which says nothing and is nothing.

 

[Kai Dracon]

The industry needs another crash/ reboot. AAA, huge budget, Hollywood homogenous bullshit isn't sustainable. Mobile and F2P in their current firms aren't either. Mid tier priced games and indies need to be embraced much more.

I see this sentiment often but the thing is - the industry may be killing much of itself economically chasing the AAA tiger but it's what a lot of the current gaming audience wants.

A lot of people don't want what many would consider mid-tier games from the previous generation (PS2 / early PS360 era). It's all about the experience, the production values, and the thrillride for an audience the industry has done a good job of attracting.

So while I tend to agree that the industry could use a swat upside the head to reset its thinking, I am wondering where such an "AAA Crash" would come from. Maybe if a generation of current 20-30 year old male game customers get bored and move on from gaming?

That is something some have predicted and said will hurt the industry for having put all its eggs in one basket.

 

[dog$]

Life is too short for videogames, period.

Yet, here we are.

That's deep, man. I'm glad you were here on this videogame message board to share this thought with us.

I take it you game exclusively on PC.

Primarily, yes - but this is on a Beatmania IIDX simulator program. So it's not quite the answer I think you'd expect.

Otherwise, there is a balance to be struck in sacrifice of the degree of content quality versus system limitations, price, the type of game in question, and willingness to accept limitations.

I still use a PS2 and 360 regularly, but (particularly with the latter system), it's usually to play arcade shooters by Cave and the like. This is acceptable to me because the porting from the arcade game is acceptable enough to my tastes, and I don't have the budget or hardware to justify getting PCBs. My current game I'm playing while on an elliptical machine is Densha de go Final, but it's the PS2 and not the PC version. I don't have the budget to get a second gaming PC, nor do I have the desire to constantly physically move the gaming PC that I do have. Likewise, if I want to play a N1 game later on like La Pucelle or Phantom Brave, I will do so on PS2, as it is the option which I find to be the best choice.

I am also presently playing GTAV on PS3 with my wife. It was her call to get the game, and while I can enjoy the game for what it is, the technical issues with the game are easily visible and I wouldn't take issue with someone who finds the game unplayable because of it.

The overall point in me saying any of this is that my determination of what I play first depends on the game before what platform it's on - as long as that platform isn't a handheld or a phone.

If you have a problem with low budget games existing you should just say so.

Hm, why would you get that impression from what I wrote?

In fact, I just made a thread about a release of fan made content which is meant to be played on the aforementioned IIDX simulator - http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=688445 . You can't get much more low budget than that.

Meanwhile, in this thread, I indicated that the oldest game which I still enjoy playing presently is Nethack. I play the game with ASCII characters. That strikes me as low budget as well.

Let me guess: a handheld killed your parents in a back alleyway as you were leaving the opera.

Ha ha. You are funny.

As for being artistic, I guess it depends on how you use the term. If you're a graphics whore, then sure, the handhelds aren't for you, and neither are most RPGs. If, however, you look beyond that to story, design, music, and characters, then you're wrong. Radiant Historia, Yggdril Union, and many others were great, if one can get past the system limitations.

That's just it, though. I can't get past the system limitations of handhelds.

It isn't as much that I can only play "the ultimate best" hardware, but, as stated earlier, I simply have a line drawn, much like a "You must be this tall to ride" sign at a carnival ride. If a game is on a handheld or a phone, I simply cannot care about it.

 

[hardcastlemccormick]

I see this sentiment often but the thing is - the industry may be killing much of itself economically chasing the AAA tiger but it's what a lot of the current gaming audience wants.

A lot of people don't want what many would consider mid-tier games from the previous generation (PS2 / early PS360 era). It's all about the experience, the production values, and the thrillride for an audience the industry has done a good job of attracting.

I often question this sentiment. Do people really not want mid-tier games? Because it seems to me that for every mid-tier game that bombed, there were just as many AAA-tier and low-tier games that also did poorly and still continue to not make up their investment. And yet the publishers just eventually stopped making mid-tier games entirely, for no good reason at all.

 

[qq more]

don't get me started on most of the 8-bit Indie games...(Super Meat Boy and Terraria being the exception...)

Something that didn't occur to me just now but this is a major pet peeve of mine. Super Meat Boy and Terraria are not "8bit" games nor do they try or resemble like them. Super Meat Boy's art is more flash... you know with the drawn vectors and all, it doesn't really use sprites. Terraria's art direction is inspired by 16bit games but without any limitations.

Shovel Knight and Cave Story fits that criteria more (the former tries to replicate the NES style, while latter replicates the style of a more obscure 8bit system).

 

[PKrockin]

^ er, yeah. Super Meat Boy clearly isn't "8-bit"... unless you somehow just mean "simplistic"

Hm, why would you get that impression from what I wrote?

In fact, I just made a thread about a release of fan made content which is meant to be played on the aforementioned IIDX simulator - http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=688445 . You can't get much more low budget than that.

Meanwhile, in this thread, I indicated that the oldest game which I still enjoy playing presently is Nethack. I play the game with ASCII characters. That strikes me as low budget as well.


Ha ha. You are funny.

That's just it, though. I can't get past the system limitations of handhelds.

It isn't as much that I can only play "the ultimate best" hardware, but, as stated earlier, I simply have a line drawn, much like a "You must be this tall to ride" sign at a carnival ride. If a game is on a handheld or a phone, I simply cannot care about it.

It's completely bizarre to me that you play nethack with no graphics (and yeah, it kicks ass) on PC just fine but as soon as someone puts a game on a handheld with a lower polycount and resolution than you would find on current gen consoles you cannot even play them. Why does it matter?

 

[shinobi602]

Strongly disliked Demon's Souls.

Vanquish was just 'ok'.

Bayonetta was also ok.

 

[darkziosj]

TLOU is an overrated piece of crap, and has the worst ending i've ever seen.

 

[Vanillalite]

PSO especially PSO EI&EII or Blue Burst is a better game than all the big MMOs because it takes away a lot of the pitfalls being a smaller focus, has fun real time 3rd person movement and combat, and in general a better community.

 

[Slixshot]

Strongly disliked Demon's Souls.

Vanquish was just 'ok'.

Bayonetta was also ok.

TLOU is an overrated piece of crap, and has the worst ending i've ever seen.

 

[statham]

Beyond is way, way better then TLoU.

 

[Hip Hop]

I am glad COD is a yearly release.

Been a fan since the original on PC. I guess there aren't many original fans left. I still love it and await every bit of info there is on a new version.

 

[dog$]

It's completely bizarre to me that you play nethack with no graphics (and yeah, it kicks ass) on PC just fine but as soon as someone puts a game on a handheld with a lower polycount and resolution than you would find on current gen consoles you cannot even play them. Why does it matter?

First, thank you (and the other person who asked the same question and subsequently deleted it) for responding like this. Sincerely.

To answer. Consider this post:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=85273351&postcount=278

I don't know what it is about mobile gaming that I don't like. I have a high end smart phone that can play any game being released for mobile these days. the graphics look good and all but somehow I find playing just about any game on my phone to be terribly unappealing. It's not just the lack of tactile controls but also something about the experience seems so disposable. Even playing a robust rpg feels lacking somehow.

Also, consider the evolution of two series; Castlevania and Dragon Quest.

Castlevania went from PCE Dracula X to PS1 Symphony of the Night to GBA Circle of the Moon.

DQ went from PS1 7 to PS2 8 to DS 9.

In both of these cases, the progress and evolution of game mechanics, game graphics, and game sound, which were all substantial improvements through the former two games mentioned, were all fundamentally reversed and abandoned in the third game listed.

Dracula X had good animation and was improved for SOTN, and then COTM, in comparison, was trash. Dracula X had a good soundtrack and SOTN had one of the best soundtracks among the series if not across all of games period, and COTM was back to 16bit fidelity.

DQ7 had an expansive overworld, which DQ8 improved upon immensely in terms of scope and time progression, and all of that progress was eradicated for DQ9.

In contract, Nethack has remained Nethack for all of its life. It never became a better Nethack only to regress to a lesser Nethack later on.

Otherwise, let arguments about progression or regression come as they may, I also cite the earlier quoted post to reflect my other primary feeling about handheld gaming. I simply see it as a disposable after thought. The "suspension of disbelief" that is required to enjoy a game beyond it being a simple time-waster is something which I demand for the games that I play and I cannot do for handheld games. When I know that a game is meant to be played for a handheld, I can't take it seriously, and that's the fundamental deal breaker.

 

[Kintaro]

The real reason Japan has gone on to embrace handhelds/mobile over consoles for video games is quite easy to understand. Portables offered consumers more than consoles could.

With the PSP and DS, they offered easy multiplayer options away from/at the home and had a much broader range of genres than what was offered with either the Wii or the PS3. The PS3 especially was overpriced for way too long and skyrocketed the price for game development all across the board. Consumers in Japan saw this and chose handhelds/mobile.

Pretty easy to see to be honest. Power had nothing to do with it. Handhelds/mobile simply fit their lifestyle better.

 

[Derrick01]

Beyond is way, way better then TLoU.

Since Cage wrote it and there's no real gameplay to it I can already tell you you're wrong there.

 

[PKrockin]

First, thank you (and the other person who asked the same question and subsequently deleted it) for responding like this. Sincerely.

To answer. Consider this post:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=85273351&postcount=278

Also, consider the evolution of two series; Castlevania and Dragon Quest.

Castlevania went from PCE Dracula X to PS1 Symphony of the Night to GBA Circle of the Moon.

DQ went from PS1 7 to PS2 8 to DS 9.

In both of these cases, the progress and evolution of game mechanics, game graphics, and game sound, which were all substantial improvements through the former two games mentioned, were all fundamentally reversed and abandoned in the third game listed.

Dracula X had good animation and was improved for SOTN, and then COTM, in comparison, was trash. Dracula X had a good soundtrack and SOTN had one of the best soundtracks among the series if not across all of games period, and COTM was back to 16bit fidelity.

DQ7 had an expansive overworld, which DQ8 improved upon immensely in terms of scope and time progression, and all of that progress was eradicated for DQ9.

In contract, Nethack has remained Nethack for all of its life. It never became a better Nethack only to regress to a lesser Nethack later on.

Otherwise, let arguments about progression or regression come as they may, I also cite the earlier quoted post to reflect my other primary feeling about handheld gaming. I simply see it as a disposable after thought. The "suspension of disbelief" that is required to enjoy a game beyond it being a simple time-waster is something which I demand for the games that I play and I cannot do for handheld games. When I know that a game is meant to be played for a handheld, I can't take it seriously, and that's the fundamental deal breaker.

So... I take it you didn't like Mega Man 9?

Judging by Konami's multiple attempts on the N64 I fon't think they were capable of making a good 3D Castlevania at the time. Instead of floundering and dying, the 2D series got to continue on handhelds and I'm told they're very fun. As for Dragon Quest, it sucks that the series didn't go in the direction you wanted, but I do think it's ridiculous to point at everyone who bought a handheld in the last decade and say we're to blame. That's a bit like getting shot and cursing the gunsmith.

I should note that others series have had better games on handhelds, and many great games would never have seen the light of day if not for handhelds.