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[scy]

Did I say riven didn't have high outplay potential?

She has:

Damage
Mobility
No mana
A ranged execute
And an amazing shield dash.

A lot of champions have damage and mobility. Having "no mana" isn't by itself a notable thing: It still comes down to what their kit does, being manaless doesn't mean anything in and of itself here.

She's not that difficult to pick up, but some people can do some next level shit. I've played her.

To perform her well enough to be at the point that she's really strong, yes, she's a bit harder than a lot of other champions. Facerolling and just spamming her skills will cause you to lose the bulk of her damage. She flows well in play and has relatively straightforward skills (/a forgiving shield) but she has a relatively high skill floor.

 

[PhillipCostigan]

Did I say riven didn't have high outplay potential?

She has:

Damage
Mobility
No mana
A ranged execute
And an amazing shield dash.

She's not that difficult to pick up, but some people can do some next level shit. I've played her.

Riven wouldn't work if she used mana. She has low base damages on skills, and most of her damage is in her passive which requires her to use her skills to do well.

It was one of the main problems with Lucian when he was released, where most of his damage is in his passive and he had a lot of trouble using that until they made some mana tweaks. However Lucian has much higher damage on his skills and is ranged, therefore he has to use mana.

It's why Yasuo is manaless, among other champions. Yasuo has really bad base damages and needs to consistently spam his skills to actually put damage out. He wouldn't work if he used mana.

Saying a champion is manaless as a reason why they're OP is disingenuous.

 

[DeadNames]

Most manaless champs have some sort of resource. Energy gets reckt if you spam if your spells, health is health, and the other straight manaless champs dont have much kill potential in the first three minutes in the game (garen, Kat, rengar, shyv, etc.)

 

[Stone Ocean]

Most manaless champs have some sort of resource. Energy gets reckt if you spam if your spells, health is health, and the other straight manaless champs dont have much kill potential in the first three minutes in the game (garen, Kat, rengar, shyv, etc.)

Are we playing different games or something?

 

[DeadNames]

Are we playing different games or something?

Clearly. I haven't seen a Kat or rengar get huge early in a looong time

 

[PhillipCostigan]

alright, I'm peaceing out of this one

 

[scy]

Most manaless champs have some sort of resource. Energy gets reckt if you spam if your spells, health is health, and the other straight manaless champs dont have much kill potential in the first three minutes in the game (garen, Kat, rengar, shyv, etc.)

Rengar's strength in lane is what he can do to you at Level 1/2 that sets the lane up for him to be dominating later; Garen and Shyvana may not have outright guaranteed kill pressure early on but they do have the capability of pressuring you right out of lane. Kat, however, almost never has early game kill pressure (since they nerfed her, can I get that W damage back pls?).

Edit: And Energy is MEANT to be a limiting factor like that. It's why their per-use damages are higher, they're designed around their intervals. Energy is intended as a burst limiter and not something for longevity in lane like mana is (and also meant to be a late-game constraint where mana is primarily early).

 

[DeadNames]

Rengar's strength in lane is what he can do to you at Level 1/2 that sets the lane up for him to be dominating later; Garen and Shyvana may not have outright guaranteed kill pressure early on but they do have the capability of pressuring you right out of lane. Kat, however, almost never has early game kill pressure (since they nerfed her, can I get that W damage back pls?).

Edit: And Energy is MEANT to be a limiting factor like that. It's why their per-use damages are higher, they're designed around their intervals. Energy is intended as a burst limiter and not something for longevity in lane like mana is (and also meant to be a late-game constraint where mana is primarily early).

Exactly. Riven can dominate the lane as soon as people walk in while being limited only by cool downs which are quite short.

 

[dimb]

log in.
check store for yasuo.
log out.

Rengar's strength in lane is what he can do to you at Level 1/2 that sets the lane up for him to be dominating later...

It doesn't really seem like people are using Rengar like this right now.

 

[Wolf Akela]

gais shyvana is way too op

as a counterpick with ignite

but gosh sticking to varus was irritating, i probably should have bought mallet or bork instead of thorn

---

Rengar's strength in lane is what he can do to you at Level 1/2 that sets the lane up for him to be dominating later; Garen and Shyvana may not have outright guaranteed kill pressure early on but they do have the capability of pressuring you right out of lane. Kat, however, almost never has early game kill pressure (since they nerfed her, can I get that W damage back pls?).

I really wonder if Riot forgot why they remade Kat in the first place. They wanted her to be functional without her ult, but her power's getting shifted to her ult again. I agree with some nerfs, particularly the W MS boost and E damage reduction time since it made lane trading frustrating. They could at put a bit of power back after laning.

 

[PhillipCostigan]

It doesn't really seem like people are using Rengar like this right now.

that's more to do with champions who are good top right now.

playing assassin Rengar against Shyvana, Mundo etc. is a recipe to get dumpstered.

 

[scy]

Exactly. Riven can dominate the lane as soon as people walk in while being limited only by cool downs which are quite short.

By going all-in (and you can't do it at Level 1, really, unless your opponent lets you for some reason). Her cooldowns are short but the time it takes for her full rotation is relatively long since it's multiple auto-attacks, albeit animation cancelled ones. If a Riven fails her all-in, you're usually in good shape since the lane gets pushed due to it and you can just freeze the lane outside tower range. Once Riven is behind, it's fairly hard to do much with her.

Again, the cooldown-only aspect isn't a big deal. If the end goal is to get someone out of lane with a single rotation, a lot of the mana-based champions (or Health, e.g., Aatrox) can do the same with little-to-no real cost.

It doesn't really seem like people are using Rengar like this right now.

Which part? Tanky Rengar is back in effect, sure, but his Level 1/2 is still the same sort of threat regardless of what your end-game build is due to what he can do with his passive and QE. I haven't watched many Rengars recently though so maybe they're going unforced safe mode early game plays now.

Edit: I'm being told that nope, they just safe farm. That's a tragedy ;__;

 

[PhillipCostigan]

People are playing safe, farm-up tank Rengar maxing W. No real level 1/2 aggro

 

[prodystopian]

Elise is one of the higher skillcap champs. The cocoon is very potent but has a fairly short range and the hitbox isn't as forgiving as say Morgana's binding.

You also have to manage the different forms and keep track of cooldowns in both forms. Her rappel is also very clunky now. If you misclick slightly you can get unintended results. Like not jumping on someone because you clicked on the ground instead of an enemy or jumping on someone when you intended on just hanging, etc etc. And it has a weird delay going up and down. It used to be MUCH smoother before they nerfed the range.

Ganks can go a few different ways too. You generally want to lead off in human form to get the most damage out of both your Qs. Human Q scales off current health, spider off missing health. A great gank would be landing cocoon into Q while your W travels then switch to spider form and Q to gap close (plus damage) and make that human W land if it hasn't already (it jumps to your spider Q target), W for the attack speed and just beat on them as they run. Gap close with your rappel as needed to get one more Q off.

Landing the cocoon for an early midlane gank should almost always result in a kill.

I often see people gap close with rappel which is cool if the target doesn't have flash or some other escape. Land rappel and a quick Q then switch to human form to get the easy cocoon, Q/W combo. Then switch back to spider/Q for the kill if they aren't already dead.

I tend to try and save my rappel for an escape or finisher though.

Teamfights is usually initiating with cocoon then doing your combo to try and insta-kill whatever you cocooned then you can dive the backline with rappel or just work the edges picking off people as your teamcomp dictates. Elise can do some pretty solid damage to tanks with her two Qs and % health damage. If someone else initiates you can save the cocoon for a peel or a squishy target.

Thanks. Yea, cocoon is tough to land which is a big reason I was not doing well. I know about the big combo, but in situations where I couldn't land that I just felt confused. Also, not knowing which form to be in for some situations was bad, but it'll just take more games.

 

[garath]

Not even sure how tank rengar came back. He hasn't changed?

I've played against a few recently and man they are annoying. Dive straight for the carry with ult, dish out a surprising amount of damage for building tanky then just walk away.

I don't think it's nerf worthy but it's definitely annoying.

This all just reminds me how much I hate toplane. More than any other lane, it really requires knowing those matchups. I don't play it enough to know them. I just fall back on Darius and Jax and usually not aggressive enough cause I don't know the matchup.

edit:

Thanks. Yea, cocoon is tough to land which is a big reason I was not doing well. I know about the big combo, but in situations where I couldn't land that I just felt confused. Also, not knowing which form to be in for some situations was bad, but it'll just take more games.

I've found she's also the most lag dependent champ I've played. She is/was my best champ but my winrate plummeted for awhile because I was having internet issues and literally half her combo just wouldn't fire. Really frustrating. I had to stop playing her and switch to someones that's not as precise.

She's a tough champ. If you're ganking and the cocoon misses you're pretty much just walking away lol. It's a little embarrassing

 

[erragal]

Riven can snowball out of control at times. On the flipside if your team is constructed properly you can chain root/stun her and burn her down instantly. Have an annie/zyra support and don't let your mid get behind and you can control even a powerful Riven.

Olaf, Shyvana, Nasus are all much scarier atm. Edit: Oh and Rengar of course too.

 

[prodystopian]

I've found she's also the most lag dependent champ I've played. She is/was my best champ but my winrate plummeted for awhile because I was having internet issues and literally half her combo just wouldn't fire. Really frustrating. I had to stop playing her and switch to someones that's not as precise.

She's a tough champ. If you're ganking and the cocoon misses you're pretty much just walking away lol. It's a little embarrassing

Yea, I noticed you can piano her skills, but you have to make sure they come out because I've definitely had them not once or twice because of that.

Haha, I think that is the worst part. I'm not confident in my jungling (because I haven't done it much) so when I miss a cocoon on a gank, I feel awful.

 

[DeadNames]

For all the shit I give riven I will admit, she is fun as hell.

 

[Stone Ocean]

For all the shit I give riven I will admit, she is fun as hell.

I wish Xypherous still made champs :C

But his will lives on through CertainlyT. Long live fun bullshit champs.

 

[dimb]

Not even sure how tank rengar came back. He hasn't changed?

mastory changes. hp regen op. armor pen rekt.

 

[garath]

mastory changes. hp regen op. armor pen rekt.

Duh. Of course. Not thinking today. New defensive masteries OP.

 

[dimb]

also item changes. shield start = good.

 

[Stone Ocean]

also item changes. shield start = good.

Yeah. New Trinity, new Visage.

 

[jerd]

Tank rengar just doesn't seem to hurt and doesnt really have the cc to tank since you can pretty much just walk by him... but my play time is at an all time low right now so maybe I just haven't played a good one yet. Have only seen a few. I would actually love to try it if I saw that it was worthwhile, but I haven't yet.

 

[zkylon]

I personally don't really mind riven, I'm sort of terrible with her but I don't really like toplane in the first place so whatever. she's inevitably gonna get nerfed, tho, that's just how lol operates. I find nasus and rengar a lot more annoying right now

I really wonder if Riot forgot why they remade Kat in the first place. They wanted her to be functional without her ult, but her power's getting shifted to her ult again. I agree with some nerfs, particularly the W MS boost and E damage reduction time since it made lane trading frustrating. They could at put a bit of power back after laning.

kat is still pretty strong but her kit is pretty hard to balance since resets are dumb.

but yea her laning is shit, just gotta find them skirmishes and start cleaning up

 

[Crab Milk Mickey]

.Edit: Can someone explain to me why I see supports take Relic Shield? The description reads that the passive kicks in if you slay the minion (unlikely as support). buying it so early with the aim of the final item seems dumb, to me.

I've been going with Ancient Coin as my first item of those gold generation ones yet everyone else appears to go Relic Shield.

Gold passive still works for ranged champions with a normal last-hit, Execute passive does not.

Some people man. We had a Tryndamere laning top against a Riven. His summoners are cleanse and ghost. I was already skeptical. Starts with cloth 5, nothing wrong with that. I'm pinging him that I'm coming to gank after I hit my level 3 at wolves.

*First blood*

Apparently when you dont have any offensive summoner spells and you know you have a gank coming, the best thing to do is go all in before the jungler can get there.

Was a good lesson for me in that I should've just ditched his lane and helped elsewhere instead. I questioned him about taking cleanse, he said it was to cleanse off ignite. Fair enough. Doesn't sound like the best summoner to take for an early all in. Especially against a Riven who started with a Dorans blade.

People just don't think at my elo :/

Ghost - Cleanse is perfectly fine on Tryn, your smug "some people don't think!" remark is misplaced all things considering. His pre-mature all-in on the other hand...

That said, Tryndamere is fucked early on against a good Riven no matter what he does.

Riven is the definition of faceroll. She barely needs skill at all.

Trade effectively and wahey, you already won the lane if she supposedly is a no-skill champion. Simple, really.

I don't think there's any secret about Riven being too string right now.

I don't really think she's too strong outside of her shield cooldown once she gets items.

2. Got Elise on sale last night and got in a few games with her. I like her, but I felt lost a few times between how to handle teamfights and being inexperienced as a jungler. I want to get in some more games with her, though.

Garath covered most of it already, so the only tips I can offer are "never buy Sunfire Cape on her" and a suggestion to play her in lane for a while if you're still adjusting to the timing + range of her combo.

Elise is one of the higher skillcap champs. The cocoon is very potent but has a fairly short range and the hitbox isn't as forgiving as say Morgana's binding.

You also have to manage the different forms and keep track of cooldowns in both forms. Her rappel is also very clunky now. If you misclick slightly you can get unintended results. Like not jumping on someone because you clicked on the ground instead of an enemy or jumping on someone when you intended on just hanging, etc etc. And it has a weird delay going up and down. It used to be MUCH smoother before they nerfed the range.

Agreed on her being a high skillcap champion. As an Elise main though, her rappel really hasn't gotten any clunkier in the way you describe it. There is no increased delay with ascending / descending after her nerfs, as throughout those patches I have little issues with on-reaction rappels to key skills or to latch on to my intended target (barring misclicks into nothing) much like before. What has gotten a lot worse though due to the range reduction, is the ability to chase after someone post-mobility skill (Flash included) if an enemy tries to escape over a wall. Previously you'd still land close to them (arguably bullshit to be fair), but nowadays you just land where they used to be even if they still remain within the circle.

 

[zkylon]

elise got so many nerfs I can't really play her anymore

 

[garath]

Agreed on her being a high skillcap champion. As an Elise main though, her rappel really hasn't gotten any clunkier in the way you describe it. There is no increased delay with ascending / descending after her nerfs, as throughout those patches I have little issues with on-reaction rappels to key skills or to latch on to my intended target (barring misclicks into nothing) much like before. What has gotten a lot worse though due to the range reduction, is the ability to chase after someone post-mobility skill (Flash included) if an enemy tries to escape over a wall. Previously you'd still land close to them (arguably bullshit to be fair), but nowadays you just land where they used to be even if they still remain within the circle.

You're right, the nerfs didn't necessarily change the flow of her rappel but that range reduction did make it more difficult to use. Based on anecdotal evidence, it seems like now when you'd want to rappel, by the time you rise, an average movespeed champ will be out of range for targeting if you weren't already targeting them for the rise.

I used to be able to rappel straight up even if I didn't have vision, and drop on someone with the bigger range. Now, if they're running, they'll be out of range for the drop by the time you can target them.

All that and the addition of my internet woes really killed me for awhile.

It's better now. The reduced range is still tough. I wish she'd rise quicker.

 

[Cathcart]

log in.
check store for yasuo.
log out.

pls when is yasuo

 

[Crab Milk Mickey]

You're right, the nerfs didn't necessarily change the flow of her rappel but that range reduction did make it more difficult to use. Based on anecdotal evidence, it seems like now when you'd want to rappel, by the time you rise, an average movespeed champ will be out of range for targeting if you weren't already targeting them for the rise.

I used to be able to rappel straight up even if I didn't have vision, and drop on someone with the bigger range. Now, if they're running, they'll be out of range for the drop by the time you can target them.

All that and the addition of my internet woes really killed me for awhile.

It's better now. The reduced range is still tough. I wish she'd rise quicker.

Yeah, it gets more finnicky at max range if you delay the targetting after the rise, but primarily in the sense that there'll more space between you and your victim if he/she keeps moving. If you directly click on the champion prior to rappel even starting though, you circumvent those landing issues to a large degree (so long as they don't pass over terrain, as mentioned).

Could be a more consistent skill ever since the nerfs, but for the most part it's still as smooth as it was before to me. Then again I'm also playing on 25 ping.

 

[brian!]

I like to imagine scy is some sort of anchorman touching his ear: "no wait, they're telling me that they just farm with him now"

 

[garath]

Yeah, it gets more finnicky at max range if you delay the targetting after the rise, but primarily in the sense that there'll more space between you and your victim if he/she keeps moving. If you directly click on the champion prior to rappel even starting though, you circumvent those landing issues to a large degree (so long as they don't pass over terrain, as mentioned).

Could be a more consistent skill ever since the nerfs, but for the most part it's still as smooth as it was before to me. Then again I'm also playing on 25 ping.

Omg. I wish I had that. I'm usually between 90-120. Damn East Coast. They really need Texas or Chicago based servers as well.

 

[prodystopian]

New Sale

Champions:

Zyra: 487 RP
Caitlyn: 440 RP
Kassadin: 395 RP

Skins:

Divine Soraka: 487 RP
Temple Jax: 375 RP
Loch Ness Cho'Gath: 260 RP

Been waiting for Zyra since she was free a couple weeks ago.

 

[PROGRAM_IX]

Pretty nuts coincidence here after a friend bought me RP:

1939, 1939...World War 3 confirmed?

 

[DeadNames]

Is wukong a good top laner?

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Is wukong a good top laner?

One of the very best, yes.

 

[DeadNames]

One of the very best, yes.

Looking at his stats, I noticed he gets tanky for free. Should I build tank on him? Also how does he fare vs riven/renek/shyvana?

 

[Pandaman]

newt and I duoing:

http://twitch.tv/pandagaf

figured i would stream our impending suffering.

 

[zkylon]

Looking at his stats, I noticed he gets tanky for free. Should I build tank on him? Also how does he fare vs riven/renek/shyvana?

I think people stick like a hydra on him then go tanky or something

newt and I duoing:

http://twitch.tv/pandagaf

figured i would stream our impending suffering.

did you go 9/0/21 on lizzy?

also rammus vs amumu in the jungle... I envy you guys :/

 

[dimb]

did you go 9/0/21 on lizzy?

also rammus vs amumu in the jungle... I envy you guys :/

rammus is one of the strongest solo queue junglers in the game...

 

[zkylon]

rammus is one of the strongest solo queue junglers in the game...

so?

did I say he was weak?

 

[dimb]

so?

oh, i thought you were commenting on the matchup. what do you envy?

 

[garath]

New Sale

Champions:

Zyra: 487 RP
Caitlyn: 440 RP
Kassadin: 395 RP

Skins:

Divine Soraka: 487 RP
Temple Jax: 375 RP
Loch Ness Cho'Gath: 260 RP

Been waiting for Zyra since she was free a couple weeks ago.

Ooh. I want a Jax skin. Temple seems ok. 375 is cheap enough.

 

[Leezard]

Ooh. I want a Jax skin. Temple seems ok. 375 is cheap enough.

Wait for Mighty Jax. Best Jax skin coming back soon.

 

[zkylon]

oh, i thought you were commenting on the matchup. what do you envy?

I dunno, out of all the junglers I like being ganked by mumu and rammus the most (and probably sejuani), they have clear outplayable patterns but if they catch you you're dead. it's fun and usually feels fair when they kill you.

lee sin is kinda the same way but I don't like him for other reasons.

and I barely see mumus and rammos these days

edit: I also just realize I was rude for no reason. sorry brah

 

[Pandaman]

did you go 9/0/21 on lizzy?

11/19
ive been trying 10% cdr from masteries, 5% from runes so i can just get nomicon and call it a day CDR-wise.

 

[zkylon]

11/19
ive been trying 10% cdr from masteries, 5% from runes so i can just get nomicon and call it a day CDR-wise.

I kinda wish I had cdr runes but they're so fucking expensive :/

wouldn't ever build lizzy ilke that doe lol

also

Summoners,

On 12/13/13, starting at 03:00 AM PST, ranked queues will be disabled in preparation for patch 3.15. At 01:30 AM PST, the servers will be shut down and all games currently in progress will end in a draw and stats will not be recorded. We estimate the battlegrounds will be unavailable for 6 hours.

yasuo tomorrow?

 

[Pandaman]

I kinda wish I had cdr runes but they're so fucking expensive :/

wouldn't ever build lizzy ilke that doe lol

how do you build lizzy? i just find her fun, never even mobafired her. [lol]

the 15% start cdr is great for e

 

[zkylon]

how do you build lizzy? i just find her fun, never even mobafired her. [lol]

the 15% start cdr is great for e

pretty much the same as ahri, double doran's and then get all the nlr items. usually dfg->zhonyas->deathcap unless against zed or something. I'll get a morello's or athene's at some point for the cdr but I think she's alright with blue buff+elixirs+masteries for a good while. I probably get cdr before void staff if my burst damage feels right.

tbh I mobafired her a lot to find a right build but stuff like rushing zhonyas or roa every game or whatever never felt right for me and I was just playing with items and found dfg to be really fun on her. I don't really play the assassin types but her combo's really easy to do and I really like how it looks like she's stomping people when you kill them with w heh

 

[scy]

Riven

We've improved Riven's running animation!

gggggggggggggggggggggggg

Edit:

"WHO NEEDS A TRINKET WHEN YOU CAN FEED A PORO!?"

Everyone will spawn with a Poro-Snax item in their trinket slot

Howling Abyss buff