Those prices are abnormally low for a Full Array 4K TV
no way those TVs aren't bonafide shite
Plasma, LCD, OLED, LED, best tv for next gen
- Thread starter spannicus
- Start date
no way those TVs aren't bonafide shite
Ryoma-Echizen
Member
Same pattern with "lets bash HTC for their sh*tty 4MP front camera vs xxx with 25megapixels".
OMG the """""quality"""" batman.
In this case, people just want more pixels despite the actual quality of the panel, hz, etc.
A real next big thing would be, lets implement HEVC/h.265 right now on BD's/Broadcast and offers 1.5-2x the image quality, all video is progressive we kill the interlaced nonsense.
Vizio isn't exactly known for their picture quality so we shall see.
They're also promising 120fps input with low latency for gaming on the P-series.
crashnburn
Member
Excuse my ignorance but what does 120 fps input on those sets mean when most games are locked at 30 or 60 usually?
Its mostly for PC gaming
Ricko Suave
Member
I bought an LG 60" PN57 "Smart" TV right before Christmas. It was 599 at Frys here in L.A. So far its been great. It took me a while to calibrate it to my liking, but you can google it and find some very solid information on it.
The one thing that it really isnt good for is fighting games. I play tekken tag 2 online and offline and the input lag is very noticeable. That is my only gripe about this T.V. Its a great T.V for a great price.
If you can find one, I got a Panasonic 50" S64 for $499 from Costco, have been meaning to post pictures
Rex_Harrison
Banned
Not exactly true. Vizio's M series from 2013 scored very high in every review I saw. I owned 3 of them. The PQ for the most part was awesome. I returned all 3 because of panel issues that plague all LED edge lit TV's. Banding and clouding were the main culprits. To be fair, the Sony W800a and Samsung F6300 I owned had much worse clouding and flashlighting. I'm looking forward to seeing the P series in person. 2013 was a terrible year for non Plasma TV's. Every other set was edge lit crap. But if it weren't for the shittyness of LED edge lit, I most likely would not own a VT60 right now. Not a bad TV to settle on.
After the experience I had buying a TV last year, I want to wait a Long time before buying another. Manufacturers sure took the fun and excitement out of purchasing a new Tv with their bullshit quality. I honestly don't get how edge lit sets can have at least one, if not all of these issues, banding, clouding, flashlighting, shit blacks, poor motion handling, washed out colors, blooming, vignetting. Yet somehow this shit tech pushed Plasma into retirement ?
Damnit how'd you get that price.If you can find one, I got a Panasonic 50" S64 for $499 from Costco, have been meaning to post pictures
Also Vizio doesn't exist in Canada... or at least not in my city.
I chose the W905 but I am still in doubt if I made the right choice. It's an awesome tv, but it does suffer from the typical Edge-Lit problems.
When I bought the Sony it was also slightly more expensive than the V60, but I will be getting an Xperia Z tablet for free.
Both tv's have their own 'problems' and I think it boils down to which type of screen you prefer. My personal list below, which made me choose for the Sony.
Pro's and cons for the Sony:
+awesome design with very small borders. The small borders also give a very nice effect when watching/playing high-def movies/games.
+uses about 1/3 of the power a plasma tv uses.
+very good colors, which are once calibrated very close to plasma. The LED screen is also brighter which makes it better for daytime viewing and 3D content.
+no IR
-colors change when you look at an angle.
-sometimes when there is a bright white object on a black background, the background turns to dark gray instead of full black.
-littlebit darker screen at the edges left and right when viewing a bright screen.
Pro's and cons for the Panasonic:
+very natural colors
+deep blacks
+no problems with the colors when watching at an angle
+overall, the screen tends to be a bit more pleasing to look at.
-IR
-buzzing
-uses a lot more power (up to 3 times?)
I have no further experience with owning a plasma, so I was already leaning towards a LED tv. As I said before, the Sony is an awesome tv, although I do wonder how much better a plasma will be in certain (darker) scenes. And if I would choose a plasma, I don't know how much would the negatives of that screen type annoy me.
The negatives of the Sony are mostly noticable on large dark or bright screens, with normal viewing everything is perfect. But I think the IR and buzzing of the plasma will probably be a lot more subtle or maybe not there at all.
Overall, I am happy with I have now and I really don't want to trade it in and then be left with something worse.
I've had my VT65 (UK version) since May and I see no IR whatsoever, ever. And I game a lot. This is in comparison to my previous GT50 where I saw it all the time. Very little buzzing, can never hear it unless sound is on mute and it's a white screen, there is some slight whirring from the fans though but again nothing compared to the equipment I've got hooked up to it.
I couldn't be happier with it.
Anyone?
lostinblue
Banned
You don't specify zone of the world/currency so... if you live in europe and those are euros or pounds... definitely a Sony Bravia 42W650.
Sadly for US there's only the 32W650 and that model is not as good (input lag-wise).
Your budget doesn't help much, but if you're in for a really cheap good gaming TV and S60/S64's are sold out in your area then I'd wager a X60 would be appropriate if you manage to get it on the cheap.
You could also try and track down a UT50 or ST50, which are 2012 plasma sets, as they can't have too many operation hours on them and are still very good TV's.
i've had my s60 for a month and echo what he says. zero IR (and i havent ran slides or any such stuff), no buzzing.
i'll even add that i personally dont find the reflective screen all that bad. yeah, during the day if i dont close shutters it can be hard to see. lights reflect very cleanly off it. but i've never seen a tv actually immune to such things - they just seem to diffuse it a bit. my parents have the st60 with the anti-reflective screen and it only seems marginally better with reflections then mine (of course, they have possibly the worst set up - its facing a south facing window in the northern hemisphere - lots of direct sunlight!) regrdless, its not an issue for me. maybe i'm not as sensitive? maybe i've gotten used to it and ignore it? maybe my placement isnt as bad as some would be? dunno.
Is the W650 vesa compatible?
I live in Italy and the budget was in euro, sorry.
I can adjust it if there is something really worth it, but still it has to be wall hung.
Bill Rizer
Member
I second what you say. I'll add, maybe I'm in the minority here, but while it can't reach highend black levels, I'm convinced that a filterless mirror-like plasma screen achieves the most amazing, sharp, vivid, deep and popping picture you can ever see, provided you have the correct ambient light.
lostinblue
Banned
No problem, I thought you would be in US for sure.
If that's so, go for the 42W650 as it is the best Flat HDTV you can buy for gaming at this point in time; it's not so expensive too, here (in Portugal) it can be had for ~550€ no problem.
Regarding the VESA mount (sorry I ignored that part at first, I thought it was a retro video compliant necessity, probably VGA, and for those there are always adapters/converters) google tells me it isn't compatible with VESA mounts, but it's capable to be wall mounted nonetheless, if you can somehow manage to accommodate it my recommendation stands as they're very very good.
AlimNassor
Banned
Will 30MS input lag be bad coming from a CRT?
lostinblue
Banned
Terrible.
CRT's are supposed to have virtually no lag, which means the input lag figures should be falling on the 0 to 2 ms range.
Then it's impossible for me to set it up, sorry. Any other suggestions?
the Sony W6's fail on the standard VESA mount though. They come with a really neat way of using the included stand as a wall mount, which saves money for new installations, but the downside is they don't have standard VESA mount points. You can bodge something together of course, but it isn't ideal.
AlimNassor
Banned
Ah, well, there's not much that goes lower.Anything that can match the W6 in PQ and has low input lag?
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
Works great on mine.
free Z1 tablet?! how/when/where, pls?
i bought a 55w905 and wasn´t offered any tablets or something else. still, i´m extremely happy with the tv, especially when compared to gaming on my old LW659s.
My RGB modded one works like a charm. How are you hooking it up?
Rex_Harrison
Banned
I think it's been covered about 300 times in this thread already. The S60 has around 32ms lag, ST60 has around 75ms, the VT and ZT are around 45ms.
There's a website that lists the lag of almost every TV made last year, also every Cnet review now has input lag listed.
Unknown Soldier
Member
There are still some Panasonic plasmas out there but mostly the higher end ones and even they are starting to get rare. Hunt one down now or regret forever. I'm glad I saw the news that Panasonic was bailing out and bought mine late last year. Best impulse purchase of my life so far.
Other than my Vita. I love that thing too.
Did Sony mention if previous Bravia sets like the W900A will be able to use Playstation Now in the future? Guess it doesn't really matter as I've got a number of other eligible Sony devices, but I was kind of irked to see only a mention of 2014 Bravias in yesterday's PR after just biting the bullet on the W900A.
SJurgenson
Banned
I've been eying the LG 60LN5710. It's $1,200 at Frys ($1,000 at Amazon).
Frys also has a LG 60LN5600 for ~900. Try as I might, and cannot find any differences in the two besides the 5600 being 59.5" diagonal and not a true 60"
Is there any logic to the LG model numbers? This whole process is confusing...
Frys also has a LG 60LN5600 for ~900. Try as I might, and cannot find any differences in the two besides the 5600 being 59.5" diagonal and not a true 60"
Is there any logic to the LG model numbers? This whole process is confusing...
MrPressStart
Member
I believe it will work with the current Bravia's. Dont hold me to that, but it seems that I saw somewhere that the w900A will be able to use it.
Would be cool if true! Not going to be heartbroken or anything if I have to wait a while to give it a try.
Dr. Zoidberg
Member
Something I remember from when I tried some Panasonic TVs is that the input on the back for Composite is shared with Component and you had to specify in the TV's menus which one you were using. So the next time you hook up the N64 or some other old composite system, make sure you specify that you are using composite and not component for that input.
On the third Panny plasma, after I finally figured out that I was going to be able to hear them all buzz, I actually bought some sound absorbing foam and covered the area behind the TV with it. It helped but only a little. I realize the sound is coming from the back of the set but I swear from the front it sounded like it was coming straight through the screen. Sadly, wall-mounting was not an option and building fake walls goes way beyond what I am willing to do to accommodate a TV. I'm sure if my room/furniture situation was different it would not have been as bad.
Rex_Harrison
Banned
Which models did you try ? My VT60 is really quiet and I'd consider my hearing above average. I sit about 6-8ft away from my 60". The only time I can hear it buzz is during an all white screen when the room is dead silent.
Didn't know where to ask this question but let me preface by saying I'm not really tech-savy. I got a soundbar for free from a friend and my tv has no digital optical out, but has a port labeled SPDIF which kind of looks like an RCA port. The sound bar only has hdmi and digital optical mini ports, as well as an aux. Which cable should I use to connect the tv to the soundbar or will I need some sort of digital/analog connector?
I have the ST50 and it is a great set. I was worried about getting a plasma because it is in a bright room, but it still looks good during the day.
I'm interested to see what comes out of PS Now and how the new Bravia sets work with it. Probably not not enough to upgrade my main set but maybe my bedroom set. We'll see.
In some European countries (Belgium, Netherlands, ...) people that bought the W905 were offered a Tablet Z for free.
The offer has ended now, I was just in time to get the tablet.
lostinblue
Banned
Pretty much. Anything under 16.7 ms has a pretty ultra low input lag in my book.
It impossible to notice such a small amount of lag, the problem lies within the fact that lag is an additive equation and you re only supposed to notice it after 166 ms; thing is consoles lag from the get go, 66 ms on 60 fps games and 133 ms on 30 fps, games with post processing crap on top like GTA4 and Killzone 2/3 dip lower in response, down to 166-200 ms from the source (depending on framerate) and that means they're lagged not your TV, the best your TV can do is not making it any worse.
Anywho thing to avoid is the 166 ms mark, and so, if a 33.3 ms TV (two frames of lag) gives you a lagged experience it's the game's fault and not the other way around.
Due to the nature of what they're doing going under either 33.3 or 16.7 ms can be a really hard thing to pull; this is not so simple to explain (for me, at least), but if you process an image in any way or form then you have to buffer at least one frame, one frame being 16.7 ms... If you have an adaptive deinterlacer going on for interlaced signal that's 33 ms out from the bat, no getting around it since you'll be buffering two frames for that method. This is really simplistic though, adaptive has been mostly dropped in favor of selective/smart blending (also called motion compensation) tracking objects so it just has to update the parts that change. This is not all there is to it, obviously as most things we feed this TV's are already deinterlaced, but for LCD's you have to create intermediate frames because they suck so much balls on their own in regards to motion when compared to CRT, RPTV and Plasma. This is another "hard to get why" concept, but it's simply how it is.
Sony is achieving these low input lags on LCD's while retaining motion quality via strobing (ie: flicker between updates) which is why they're going under 16.7 ms.
Backtracking, it's really irresponsible on those developers account seeing they know most people don't even configure their TV's for gaming, I mean, they are dumb enough to keep using the bundled composite cables on them so chances are they know nothing. Above 133 ms of lag from the source is criminal.
ST50 is honestly the best set from that production year... Never before had the Panasonic U and S series been so good; see GT50 was dimmer and VT50 was very very dim leaving ST50 to be the one that actually hit 120 cd/m^2, brilliant set.
And to top of it all out it had less input lag than higher end models, and retained the uniphier (panasonic) chip paraphernalia. Brilliant. with that in mind the ST60 input lag/mediatek 5590 fiasco almost seems deliberate to undermine the follow up while saving a penny.
Sony W650's only beat it on the input lag front (ST50 being no slouch still) and on the fact they lack IR/Burn-in. I'd never trade under those circumstances.
I see you tried everything then.
Without bolting it on a depression completely negating the buzz would be very hard to achieve, even if you went for more expensive materials or went trigger happy on insonomiazating every bounce point.
Yeah, I'm pretty happy with the 65VT60 I purchased myself even if it single handedly dumped me into technical bankrupcy (and I'm looking for a job on a country getting through a financial crisis, so it really came of as an eccentric move but it was worth it).
I'd regret forever, Now I only regret I didn't have the money to buy two (well, I'd settle for a 42GT60). It also turned my gaming sessions into misery, seeing this plasma set is good for what it cost, but damn, that thing up there on the living room made me go to the cinema, to see the Hobbit 2 and wish I was at home because the color gamut sucked balls.
Impressive shit, I wanna make love to it.
EDIT: The 65 inchers are goners here, delisted et all, seems like it's entry and top range going down on us, the leftovers are stuff like the 55VT60 (not a bad leftover to buy at all), but 65" was exactly what that living room needed for the viewing distance.
50X60's are not bad at all, and if you are in US you can hunt a S60 or S64.
Other than that, no. Only if you consider buying second hand 2012 models providing someone is selling them.
For that price and retaining the image quality, there's no suggestions that spring to mind.
There are some good Phillips TV's out there, series 5 and up for that same pricepoint but while I know their image quality is good (beware of Philips though, they're known to be inconsistent on entry models) I don't know what their input lag is. Other than that... Sony has the old and trusty R420's (VA-panel, good enough performance and image quality but very entry point) and a friend of mine bought a 2012 panasonic VA-panel a few weeks ago (panasonic didn't manufacture it's own panels anymore in 2013) and the quality left me impressed seeing it was cheap although understandably bought with a discount. Thing is they're all step downs/segment under in comparison to this set.
I'd certainly go magyver on it tbh; the thing brings a wallmount acessory (diagrams here), so I'd probably either assemble the wall hanging thing it brings and then bolt it in to a specially made VESA mount adapter made from acrylic or metal (google shows it has been done before, albeit not on this model)... or look at the holding screws it carries on the back (it retains 4 fixation points to it 2 meant for base 2 meant for mount) and make it so I can bolt parts there that bring the depression up to "screwable somewhere" level... most likely using the right size screw spacers and then I'd proceed again with the acrylic or metal plate thingy.
TV weights 10 kg without the stand so it's really not much of a problem.
Should work, hell, I'm not proud but my Mega Drive II worked via RF the other day.
Sounds like your TV has a coaxial out and the sound bar has no coax in sooo I think you're out of luck.
only on most 2014 Bravias, not on old ones.
It requires new hardware and bluetooth for the controller. Basically it is like as if they are integrating something like VitaTV in there.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Everything quoted above is either subjective or game-specific and can't be generalized, but the bold in particular is flat-out incorrect, and I'm tired of seeing it repeated.
If there is any "inherent lag" in a game console, it has to be less than 1 frame, because there are some games that have moves that activate and display within 1 frame from the input. That wouldn't be possible if the bolded was true.
Sony (and other TV manufacturers) do this all the time and it is frustrating - their smart TV platforms simply are designed to be extended much. Although at least with PSNow you can understand due to needing to work with a dualshock 3
There are people that have fitted W6s to VESA wall mounts, you just need to adapt the TV mount. Bit of DIY? Or try this http://www.av4home.co.uk/blog/guides/wall-mounting-a-new-sony-kdl-w6-series-tv/
lostinblue
Banned
First of all, of course it's game specific, we're talking about consoles... And sorry, not true.
Minimum lag PS3/X360 gen is 3 frames of lag or 50 ms @ 60 frames per second, that's 3 frames of response. Results better than that are simple not doable on them; I don't know for current gen, no data to judge yet, but latency is there every step of the way... Even on PC.
Thing is, knowing that and measuring hdtv lag, people in the know mostly ignore the pre-existing and varying lag in the chain and lag only really gets a mention to be inherent to the games after it hits the 150-166 ms mark, because 133 ms is a normal occurrence. It's never, under any circumstance, one frame/16.7 ms.
Fact is, if the lag for one game was 16.7 ms, then the TV lagging a bit more wouldn't be too much of a problem, yet it is, universally so. Because lag is additive it's not just the TV that's lagging, it's everything in that chain, reasons for it? multiple... But the only thing you can do something about is down to the TV. Hence we talk about TV's and their input lag.
A good read, if albeit simplified.
lostinblue
Banned
Cheers, specifically looked for something like that yesterday and couldn't find it, seemed strange that nobody had done it prior.
Pretty damn good guide, they're using precisely the bit about screw spacers and they have the width references needed too, very nice.
MrPressStart
Member
Bill Rizer
Member
The "1-frame window" in combos falls in between a scripted sequence of inputs; you simply have a string you have to execute always the same with the right timing, but it's in no way related to display lag. A different story would be if the game required you a 1-frame *reaction time* i.e. if you had to input the required command whitin 1 frame after a sudden event happens on screen, well this would be technically (and humanly I think) impossible, the game would be inherently broken in regard to this particular move.