I know right! What has the world come to?
IndieStatik Founder apologizes for "inappropriate" comments to female game dev
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I know right! What has the world come to?
faceless007
Member
Maybe she didn't want to take the risk.
Vermillion
Banned
...I can't tell if we're agreeing or not. I think we are?
ShockingAlberto
Member
I think that speaks to a deeper problem that she was not able to simply say no because the dynamic of their interaction was disadvantageous solely to her.
No means no means that it stops at no, not that it can only stop at no.
Devolution
Member
Because even the most clear cut case of sexual harassment is somehow partly her fault, and then people wonder why it's such a problem to begin with.
I dont think she was expecting things going bad for her, she just knew that there is chance that by speaking out she was gonna pay a price she didnt have to pay, as it has happened in the past to people that report on these issues. Again, the fact that people are considering her reaction as lacking in any way shows a fundamental lack of empathy that could easily lead to the same apathy if she decides to be "assertive".
Damn, I know this kind of interrupts the flow of the current conversation in the thread, but you plucked those words from my brain.
I don't doubt the sincerity in the apology, though. I just think sometimes people want to provide context as a way of externalizing their internal thought process. If it helps them understand what they did was wrong and make sure to be smarter in the future, so be it.
hahaaaaa
I like how not only does the other host admit to being creeped out by him when they first met, but she's very visibly weirded out by his answers
Really depends on the people involved and what sort of professional connection that is. Most of the time it obviously won't end well but sometimes it does.
I met my fiance by walking by her on campus and saying she's too hot to carry heavy things. (Was carrying an old school projector). Ended up in the sheet four hours later. Similar and even cruder advances have gotten me some success and plenty of rejection.
Problem is some guys are too desperate/inexperienced to understand 95% of the time wishy washy middle ground playing games bullshit is still a fuck off.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
Whistle blowers aren't treated kindly it's a fact of life even if they were completely in the right. That, and the power dynamic makes it a very messy affair.
Vermillion
Banned
ohbabyitsken
Banned
I left that sentence in there for a purpose though.
OniBarubary
Banned
What should be done about him? What should happen due to his actions?
Topics like this leave me with a very...confused feeling. One that doesn't make me altogether comfortable.
I'm...trying to find what should be done. Should he be shamed, ridiculed and derided forever? Will people make sure that this is something that sticks to him and follows him to his grave? Should it stop him from ever getting another place in the industry? Should any attempts to make himself better be thrown to the side because of the things he has done? Do we want him to come out of this and see his problems and fix them? Or do we not care about him in any way? Is that the way we make this world and the people in it better? By tossing those who have done awful things to the side and let them rot and fester?
I dunno. This gets real heavy for me sometimes as I never know the right way to handle the people at fault. I just don't think treating them like human garbage is going to teach them anything, help them see their mistakes and make honest amends for them or better themselves as people. Will this make them stop others when they see the same thing repeat itself? Will they teach their kids these new values that they learned from making this mistake and thus enrich the world later by raising children who will not make the same awful mistakes he made? Or is it going to make things worse, is he going to get defensive and internalize all his hate so that he treats people worse and drags the people around him down as well? Will he raise his children and tell them to watch out for "social warriors" and take them down the same path he took but make it more insidious and ingrained in them? I don't know.
This is some real hard shit. I don't think people are binary 1-0, on or off on whether or not they're a good or bad person. I think good people can do some shitty stuff sometimes by mistake or ignorance. I think bad people can have some fleeting moments of altruism or niceness even if by accident. And I don't think an example of either is enough to determine who someone is as a person. We're more complicated than that. We're people, at the end of the day.
I try to stay out of topics like this. I feel it's not really my place as it is not something I'm either familiar with (not being a woman or someone who has been harassed) and not being a subject I have studied extensively. I defer to those with more relevant or educated opinions on the matter and still keep abreast of these threads and read the posts so I can be aware of the situation and people's arguments during it.
I just see so much vitriol it's hard for me to think that's a way that is ever going to end all these hateful acts that people do. I don't think throwing hate at hate resolves anything or makes the world overall better.
Sorry for rambling a bit.
Topics like this leave me with a very...confused feeling. One that doesn't make me altogether comfortable.
I'm...trying to find what should be done. Should he be shamed, ridiculed and derided forever? Will people make sure that this is something that sticks to him and follows him to his grave? Should it stop him from ever getting another place in the industry? Should any attempts to make himself better be thrown to the side because of the things he has done? Do we want him to come out of this and see his problems and fix them? Or do we not care about him in any way? Is that the way we make this world and the people in it better? By tossing those who have done awful things to the side and let them rot and fester?
I dunno. This gets real heavy for me sometimes as I never know the right way to handle the people at fault. I just don't think treating them like human garbage is going to teach them anything, help them see their mistakes and make honest amends for them or better themselves as people. Will this make them stop others when they see the same thing repeat itself? Will they teach their kids these new values that they learned from making this mistake and thus enrich the world later by raising children who will not make the same awful mistakes he made? Or is it going to make things worse, is he going to get defensive and internalize all his hate so that he treats people worse and drags the people around him down as well? Will he raise his children and tell them to watch out for "social warriors" and take them down the same path he took but make it more insidious and ingrained in them? I don't know.
This is some real hard shit. I don't think people are binary 1-0, on or off on whether or not they're a good or bad person. I think good people can do some shitty stuff sometimes by mistake or ignorance. I think bad people can have some fleeting moments of altruism or niceness even if by accident. And I don't think an example of either is enough to determine who someone is as a person. We're more complicated than that. We're people, at the end of the day.
I try to stay out of topics like this. I feel it's not really my place as it is not something I'm either familiar with (not being a woman or someone who has been harassed) and not being a subject I have studied extensively. I defer to those with more relevant or educated opinions on the matter and still keep abreast of these threads and read the posts so I can be aware of the situation and people's arguments during it.
I just see so much vitriol it's hard for me to think that's a way that is ever going to end all these hateful acts that people do. I don't think throwing hate at hate resolves anything or makes the world overall better.
Sorry for rambling a bit.
But was 2 people who want to share som intimacy, first you discover what the person likes before saying things that might have a problem with you if they don't.
See : masoquism
He sended cursing directed to another gaffer.
That is probably the top 5 easiest ways to get banned
faceless007
Member
No shit. Why is why using the excuse that "some people like it in certain circumstances" as a baseline for acceptable behavior is dumb.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Yeah, she should be grateful all he did was constantly talk about violating her instead of trapping her in a house with the key underneath a pile of dirty needles or turning her into a vampire.
Devolution
Member
You mean in real life when someone with charisma and a knack for gauging the relative comfort of someone else makes a direct come on? No fucking way.
Yeah, that makes sense. Instead of risking putting herself in an abusable situation she took action in a way that did not leave her open for abuse while also bringing to light one of the less talked about sides of the industry.
ThreePiMatt
Member
You're not crazy. The internet views every situation as black and white even if there are shades of gray. This could have been a valuable teaching moment, a chance for this guy to understand why his actions are inappropriate. And I guess it still will be, just after he gets publicly shamed and loses his job.
faceless007
Member
Bingo.
Not only that, she had to reconsider her non-confrontational approach when she realized the guy wasnt gonna stop, and she probably realized that there was no room for someone mistaking the guy as just "confused" or "trying to be witty" after all the stuff so her chances of someone putting the blame on her were gonna be smaller, and still, a couple tried.
And yeah, bringing issues to the light its a good thing, the whole "under the table" thing that the guy with the wife and kids embarrassingly suggested a couple of pages back its basically a way of saying "Dont snitch".
That's a funny thing. But it doesn't even make sense under its own logic. "under some circumstances" = if everyone acknowledges that the conversation in question was originally professional, there should have been no room for the sudden drunken booty call turn it took. They aren't lovers or anything of the sort.
You notice how even after the fifth or so time he offered to kiss her vagina, she wasn't "riffing" with him or anything of the sort? It wasn't "oh lol sexual advances with heavy handed but ostensibly humorous intent are my favorite bonding experience...I mean bondage experience lol!!!!" It was business.
Who gives a shit if some people like it in certain circumstances. I guess it would be nice if we could make the moral applicability of sex jokes so broad and vague that there's a reason it can fit in any situation, but it clearly doesn't fit here! This is not that hard!
NullPointer
Member
We're reading the same words and sussing different meaning from them.
First I'd ask whether its even possible to suggest a course of action to take when faced with a creeper without that implying that you're blaming the victim.
As far as being professional goes, once again I think David is saying that the best response would have been to stop him cold, because not doing so suggests a passive acceptance of being spoken to in that manner, even if ignored. To do so leaves you in a space where you wish somebody would just take the fucking hint rather than just being clear about it, and stating that you're being disrespected and fucking stop already.
So what I read as professional advice to stop the guy cold in his tracks you read as a statement that she was being unprofessional. To be fair you're reading it in the most literal sense, but I don't think that literal meaning makes the most sense in context.
I don't see Jaffe as a wordsmith as much as an inspired ranter/conversationalist, so when I imagine him saying the words out loud as if we were talking over beers, it makes sense to me. But yeah, thats me reading between the lines and what I know of Mr. Jaffe from his appearances and GAF posts and rants. Which I do when it comes to tweets because you have to.
Vermillion
Banned
Who says anything has to be "done" at this point? This will serve as a couple of things:
1) Example of what women have to deal with in the industry
2) A lesson
Principate
Saint Titanfall
Even without the internet involved he would lose his job and if she bothered to press charges and succeeded there's a reasonable chance he would be black listed but it's true his life won't be easy from now on.
There's an important distinction that needs to be made a lot of people here are treating what he did as binary not the consequences to himself.. I don't believe he should never obtain a job same with any person that completely messes up people can change.
What people here do have actions with is people trying to defend his actions not his future well being.
Well, it's relevant when there are people who say those circumstances don't exist.
The victim blaming/perpetrator empathizing was pretty weak this time around. Don't worry boys, you'll get another shot once we, the social justice warrior Illuminati, manufacture another controversy.
Fotheringay
Member
The point is, if you're not skilled (or downright atrocious) in those areas of social interaction, as some clearly are, what should the reaction be if you push too far past? Should it be an attempt to educate to someone, or a punitive rebuke? Attempting to delineate by "creepiness" seems fine to many, but that doesn't solve anything for those who genuinely struggle with it. Oni's post I think touches on it well, the difficulty in assessing the severity of such an act and subsequent reaction.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
None of which are the victim.
But there's also her side: does she want to open herself to the abuse, which could materialize as him saying bad stuff about her to other people in the business months or years later, that may come by telling him he's coming on too hard? It's not like they are just two acquaintances who met at a bar last night, her being in the video game industry and he being a member of the press means she has to walk on eggshells in this situation.
Fornaximus
Member
Came in here expecting some typical internet PC-brigade outrage over itsfuckingnothing.gif, but this guy seems like a totally desperate creep. Way out of line and really gross. Horrendous apology, too, throwing his dead brother under the bus. Get your shit together, son.
CountAntonius
Member
Asshole.
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
The victim blaming/perpetrator empathizing was pretty weak this time around. Don't worry boys, you'll get another shot once we, the social justice warrior Illuminati, manufacture another controversy.
Kotaku is always watching!
Why won't someone think of the creeps of the world? I think I know why.
XANDER CAGE
Member
Coulda, shoulda, woulda. Really easy for Jaffe to say what she should have done, and apparently easy for him to cast judgment on how "professional" her measured her response to "kiss your vagina" was.
Devolution
Member
The point is being obfuscated this way and by people like Jaffe. This is a situation in which lines were clearly crossed and we don't need to ponder about whether he'd be less up shit creek because some women don't mind this banter! In fact it's an argument I completely loathe to even see trotted out. In this instance the lack of acknowledgment to his advances and trying to keep the conversation professional is completely clear. The lack of telling a peer to "go fuck themselves" is obvious. And yet here we are. The actions by a person completely obfuscated because of some egos and hurt sympathetic feelings to an otherwise creepy jerk who creeped on someone in a vulnerable situation. But clearly she should be much more abrupt in rebuffing his advances because how do social cues work?
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
Mortified by his behavior because it didnt work to pick up a chick
Principate
Saint Titanfall
TBF if you go too far you apologise or you simply leave, while annoying most people won't be too fussed.
The issue here is not that he simply crossed a line, it's that he's so far past the line he can't even see the line. The line is a dot to him.
That's why people find it indefensible.
What does the victim have to do with it? I'm referring to the posts that were talking about society at large.
Why did the woman continue the conversation if she found the comments inappropriate? And how come she didn't tell him right then that he was being disrespectful??
Instead she embarrassed him in front of the whole world...
Don't get me wrong, the comments are way out of line but she didn't really do anything to stop them from piling on.
Instead she embarrassed him in front of the whole world...
Don't get me wrong, the comments are way out of line but she didn't really do anything to stop them from piling on.
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
.Jaffe is that you?
Mentioning anecdotal "real life", "society at large", "happens it all the time" kind of stuff pretty much makes your opinion seem needlessly simplistic and makes you seem simplistic as well.
Just because some things happen generally doesn't make them okay or more acceptable in specific instances, especially in the case of harassment.
Vermillion
Banned
Likely because it was an awkward situation for her and she felt that telling him off would have made it a worse situation.
Xenon
Member
What a fucking moron. "Hope you have a great Sunday." Damn that's just pathetic. Does this guy have an account here? If so that should be his tag. That or "I threw my dead brother brother under a bus to deflect from the fact that I'm a horny creep"
I think the girl handled it the way she wanted. Nothing wrong with that. As for the creep, he ruined a relationship and women in the industry our going to be rightfully guarded with any interaction with him.
For some reason this strip popped into my head when I read his last message.
I think the girl handled it the way she wanted. Nothing wrong with that. As for the creep, he ruined a relationship and women in the industry our going to be rightfully guarded with any interaction with him.
For some reason this strip popped into my head when I read his last message.
There are a number of factors:
1. Her complete avoidance of his advances is a form of denial.
2. She didn't want to risk the blow-back that comes from turning down someone who is coming on so strong after showing no interest.
3. She is also dealing with someone in the press, which makes his advances even more inappropriate, and makes the risk of turning him down even greater.
4. It highlights this sort of harassment which is seldom talked about when it comes to the video games industry.
Some of those could be why or none of those could be why but there are ample reasons why her actions were the right thing for her to do.
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