Smash Bros. 4 3DS/Wii U has major metagame changes regarding edge grabbing
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My most vivid memories of edge hogging are from SSB64! That's when I forced my friends to not do it, carrying the tradition into Melee. There were "real" kills and "lame" kills. Don't do lame kills, because it's boring and annoying.
What depth is being removed here? Instead of "Oh you did your Up B? Too bad, I'll just grab the ledge. Have a nice drop!" it will force the guarder into attacking before the recover gets to the ledge, or even deciding it's too risky and holding back, giving the recovering player more choices.
I agree that smash in all iterations is accessible. Doesn't mean improvement can't be made, though we really need to try it for ourselves first. I might be cursing this new edge system in a few months.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
Real EPIC kills.
Whenever you realize that a big part of it helps people live longer. That slows the pace of the match, and is generally a bad thing.
I didn't really think about it that way at first, I just focused on the 'air time and damage' bit, thinking 'oh good, maybe planking won't work now'. The invincibility adjustments could be good, assuming it mainly makes the invincibility less potent. Letting people grab the edge more often probably is just a bad thing.
Professor Beef
Banned
Real kills are earned, unlike those lame cheesy ones.
Comfort Jones
Banned
This post is so scrub tier it boggles the mind. Yes, it's cowardly to punish a player for getting knocked far enough to be unable to recover.
Also there was actual thought put into edge hogging, there's lot of situations where you can't do it for free. Stop talking shit over something you don't even take seriously. Might as well talk shit about someone going for easy points in a sports game as if its their fucking fault.
Also for the love of God stop calling it "meta game" changes. It's a change. To the game. It's called a game change.
theprodigy
Member
Comfort Jones
Banned
How is it always humiliating exactly?
I have literally never felt humiliated for getting edge hogged. If I was gonna feel bad about something it would be like...getting combo'd into a falcon punch or in general falling for some obvious stupid shit and getting bodied for it.
theprodigy
Member
Comfort Jones
Banned
But it's not something you should really get hit by is my point. Edge hogging isn't exactly rare.
I do like how this seems to be designed to get rid of planking (not that I thought that planking was ever a major problem in Melee/idgaf about Barwl) but to be completely honest I don't think I know enough to say whether or not this will be good. Somehow I get the feeling it's going to lead to shenanigans out the ass.
Back in freshman year in the dorms, some people somehow heard I was pretty good at smash (melee at the time) and wanted to play me probably expecting that I wasn't as good as them. So after a few games of them getting destroyed, I went Falcon against one of them being Luigi. I ended up finishing off the 4 stock with a Falcon Punch off the screen as he was recovering. My hype for actually landing that was instantly awkwardly killed by their silent blank stares. Pretty sure they were pretty humiliated in that case at least.
theprodigy
Member
ipitydatfu
Member
when playing with casuals i usually let them stay close until the last stock.
i pray to win son. dont give no shits about lame kills
i pray to win son. dont give no shits about lame kills
Hyperactivity
Banned
I'm not taking a side because all of these posts are just giving me a headache and I don't have much of a clue, but isn't it that most of the people who are against this change are the ones complaining about how the "Real kills" are just going to be normal kill, while the old normal kills you are advocating for are now with SSB4's changes the same as "real kills". Therefore making a hypocrite out of many of you saying statements such as that, as you are effectively now doing the same thing the people you are insulting were once doing.
My point is that you're essentially doing now in this thread what the people you're mocking are/were doing.
Besides, I have no doubt that new ways to edgeguard with this change will be found, and other tactics will replace edgehogging in the metagame.
Comfort Jones
Banned
The game. Not the metagame. Metagame is something else. Like, say everyone uses some character cuz he's top tier so you pick a character who counters him that people might not even really be aware of with the hopes that you'll get far in a tournament doing that. That's metagame. Edgehogging is just a thing you do in the game. I mean if edge hogging is meta game then I don't know what the point of "meta" is in that word.
Poltergust
Member
People seem to fail to realize that in order to have a "metagame" you need to have an actual game first.
RoombaDance
Member
Edge hogging the way it's used in casual gameplay is fine - rare and requiring some skill.
Edge hogging the way it's used in competitive gameplay sounds a bit broken.
Hopefully Sakurai has figured out a way to tone down the abuse in competitive play without completely removing the tactic.
Edge hogging the way it's used in competitive gameplay sounds a bit broken.
Hopefully Sakurai has figured out a way to tone down the abuse in competitive play without completely removing the tactic.
Comfort Jones
Banned
You say it "sounds a bit broken" which strongly implies you don't know. How is it being "abused"?
People use that word so much and it irritates me. Like...you got sent too far away, you can't recover, period. The hell is the problem? There are strategies to recovering/blocking recovery, I don't know what magical world you people live in where all kills are just oh he's knocked out from a random hit and now he can't recover because reasons.
Also you've yet to explain how that's bad, people are literally using the same arguments I remember hearing from kids when I was 13. It's seriously just barely above IT'S SOOOOO GAAAAAAAAAY.
Edit-Do you want them to recover for free? I mean once again, they got hit, they got off stage, they didn't have the recovery to get back. Where does "broken" enter in here. Hell if anything it gives certain characters an easier time against top tiers like Fox and Falco who have kinda meh recovery. If they couldn't be ledge hogged whelp good luck dealing with Fox's up b!
Depends on if he is talking about Brawl or Melee. As other people have pointed out Brawls ledgehogging is one of the many broken things in that game. Both MK and Marth (and maybe a few others?) can be completely invincible for however long they want resulting in stalling. In competitive play Matches are stock with a timer so stalling is a good but ultimately broken mechanic if you're looking to win at a tourney.
I apologize for reiterating and sounding patronizing if you already knew this... Maybe I should read this thread more but it's getting late lol
Anyways judging by that post it sounded like he was just reading the comments and expressing his thoughts on the matter and taking cues from others without in-depth knowledge of his own
Comfort Jones
Banned
It's not even that broken in Brawl. That was the most overblown controversy ever. If it was broken more top mk's would do it, but they don't. They do however still spam the shit out of tornado but the commentators will ofc try to tell you the other player IS READY FOR THAT MOVE.
MK is just a hilariously designed character. Up air that's faster than an air dodge weee thanks Sakurai.
Up air comes out in 1-frame... so yeah... and while I don't particularly have an issue with the way ledges work I can still recognize that they are one of the many things in SSBB that just don't work well for anything above casual.
RoombaDance
Member
Oh I'm just basing it off of what other people have said and the videos I've watched. I probably played hundreds of hours, but I'm not tourney competitive so I can't speak from personal experience on that level. In normal play with my friends edge-guarding was used only rarely and when successfully pulled off it was an earned kill. Ideally that's how I'd like to see it in competitive play. Based off the comments it sounds like it's become a routine method to kill opponents and alternatively a means of gaining near invincibility (depending on which game we're talking about). I think there's more interesting ways to block recoveries and I'd rather see edge hogging kept as a trick move.
Personally I'd rather go back to closer to the N64 where recoveries are possible from very large distances. I'm hoping the changes we've seen so far indicate the new Smash Bros will have large screen boundaries with an emphasis on recovery and recovery prevention.
There are definitely more interesting ways of blocking recoveries and they are used very frequently in Melee. Edge hogging is something you do when someone can barely make it back and must shoot directly for the ledge. This just means you were basically dead from the hit in the first place. It's like a shortener to everyone's recovery, only the offense has to make sure they execute the edge hog correctly.
Otherwise, if they fall off stage and do not fly to the maximum boundaries of their own recovery, they still have multiple options for getting back to the stage, and the offense likewise has multiple options for countering their various ways of recovering.
Also Brawl didn't have the technical distance but you could DI and live at very high percents and most all characters could get back from pretty much anywhere on the screen. However the ledge snap and mashable air dodge made getting back a lot easier.
Me and CORN|JDM were talking about Phoenix Wright in Mahvel the other day and your name came up. I still remember watching you win some Texas tournament using PW. /random
Poltergust
Member
I need to get back into it since I have a lot more free time this semester (so far, at least).
How do you draw that conclusion from Sakurai's nebulous statements?
LAUGHTREY
Modesty becomes a woman
I guess until he says otherwise I'm just assuming the guy who put in tripping to stop competitive play is doing more things to stop high level play.
theprodigy
Member
:jnc
basically what M2K does with Sheik on the ledge in Melee, except 999999x more effective and less risky (and easier)
it's funny because they implemented a 35(?) edge grab limit, yet with Meta Knight's aerial mobility this hardly makes a difference
KittenMaster
Member
It's using Brawl's extremely generous invincibility frames by constantly grabbing the edge so that you have a tiny window of vulnerability.
Yeah you grab the ledge (your opponent is typically on the stage), you hit down to let off the ledge, you jump (or in Meta Knight's case, jump and mash a couple uairs out), then grab the ledge again.
You ledge snap from so low that it's impossible for the person on stage to hit you, and your actual window of vulnerability is so small that it's a huge risk to jump off and try and attack.
Anyways, if you're in a bad recovery situation you can just sit there and do that repeatedly to stall until your opponent gets fed up and tries something risky or you get an opportunity to get back on stage safely.
It's dumb.
He has said otherwise though. He said he was looking for something between Melee and Brawl. He also got rid of tripping, which he wouldn't have if he really were trying to kill the competitive scene.
I don't think we can tell what this means for the competitive community without further clarification.
Professor Beef
Banned
"Planking" is the term given to repeatedly jumping on the edge to retain invincibility and/or stall. It was named after a player named "Plank" who would do this in every single match.
I had literally no idea what any of this meant, so I found a video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IzXR3W-f2I
This is a competitive fighting game?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IzXR3W-f2I
This is a competitive fighting game?
There's easy ways to counter it if you have the right timing.
I made a post before Brawl released in 08' that caused a shitstorm across the internet. Even that early, it was evident the ledge was going to become a prime facilitator for stalling:
http://smashboards.com/threads/synikals-brawl-impressions-when-hearts-cry-edition.141716/
There was a part of me that thought people would eventually mitigate its effectiveness, but I guess not.
http://smashboards.com/threads/synikals-brawl-impressions-when-hearts-cry-edition.141716/
There was a part of me that thought people would eventually mitigate its effectiveness, but I guess not.
Depends on what character you're playing. Planking is totally debilitating to characters without a decent air game and good recovery options.
Holy Order Sol
Member
Yeah the whole thing isn't saying much of anything really.
lol i troll u
boiled goose
good with gravy
Haha ppl complaining about cheap tactics. At the competitive level u play to win.
Professor Beef
Banned
Olimar vs. most of the cast would agree.
Solid Samus
Banned
Wow. That post may even have recognized the input buffering that wasn't brought all the way out into the open until that PM release.
It was absolutely the straw that broke the camel's back for me regarding Brawl. I can be Obsessive Compulsive and very neurotic with execution in FGs, which is why I bitch endlessly about the input systems in the modern Capcom fighters. Stuff like that really tends to have an effect on me so I picked them up quickly.