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[Two Words]

OP posts about pastor behaving unwisely due to ridiculing the Santa tradition at children.

OP compares believing in God to believing in Santa.

Okay.

Way to set the tone.

They're not that different, especially when you consider that the pastor believes he knows the mind and will of God.

Grow up.

Yes there is no proof that religious deities exist, but religions are as old as humanity with billions of followers and have shaped our culture as a species. Santa is the mascot for Coca-cola.

Get off your internet cool kid horse and think for a moment before shitposting.

This sounds a lot like saying religious people need to be coddled like children being coddled about Santa. I don't believe in intentionally antagonizing those wth religious views, but it is completely reasonable to compare believing in Santa Claus to believing in some theological representation of god that claims to know the mind and will of that god.

 

[Newt]

It basically boils down to "my magic man is real, yours isn't!" Let kids believe in Santa, it's not hurting anyone.

 

[Regulus Tera]

It basically boils down to "my magic man is real, yours isn't!" Let kids believe in Santa, it's not hurting anyone.

I think it's very hypocritical to lie to children from a young age and treat them as stupid and then ask them to be critical minded adults when they grow up. But maybe I'm still salty my mother dropped the truth bomb about Santa on me when she couldn't find a copy of Pokémon Yellow. I cried for weeks.

 

[Count Dookkake]

What a grumpy old loon.

Lol at the tears over the obvious parallels between the children's god and your god.

Sometimes it is that simple.

 

[HiredN00bs]

Grow up.

Yes there is no proof that religious deities exist, but religions are as old as humanity with billions of followers and have shaped our culture as a species. Santa is the mascot for Coca-cola.

Get off your internet cool kid horse and think for a moment before shitposting.

It is certainly too common a phenomenon to just be cultural, in my estimation. We evolved into pattern-seekers, a species that forms simple, functional models to explain complex systems. But the process by which we shed these beliefs is similar.

There are no flying reindeer anywhere. One man can't deliver presents to every house in a single night.

There are no supernatural miracles. A perfect being can't sit idly by while children suffer.

It is contradiction of claims vs. observation and an absence of evidence that causes us to reject presuppositions like God and Santa. There's no reason a religion couldn't emerge around the Santa myth so long as you sufficiently repurposed its claims as metaphor so as to make them untestable and had a group that carried it as truth.

 

[Two Words]

Educate yourself then. There is a massive difference, whether you agree with religion or not.

When are people going to learn that such flippant, ignorant, disrespectful statements do nothing but antagonize or stifle a discussion?

I believe in God, but find the pastor's behavior foolish and embarassing. Am I supposed to go in here and be okay that God is compared to Santa? Why is this behavior okay on GAF? It shouldn't be.

I don't get why you should expect people that don't believe in God to think the theological representation of God is somehow incomparable to Santa.

Santa, Easter Bunny, Zeus, Chthulu, tooth fairy, whatever theological flavor of God you want to pick, they all seem to not be real to me. Surely you don't think Zeus and other Olympian gods are real. I'm sure that you're comfortable comparing them to Santa. Your God is like that for us.

 

[MUnited83]

Grow up.

Yes there is no proof that religious deities exist, but religions are as old as humanity with billions of followers and have shaped our culture as a species. Santa is the mascot for Coca-cola.

Get off your internet cool kid horse and think for a moment before shitposting.

It's still the same damn thing. Magical imaginary beings you believe in.

If I go now and start believing the world is controlled by 12 invisible pink dragons, that belief is worth as much as every single belief in other imaginary things in the world. How long people have believed in it is completely fucking irrelevant.

I think you're the one that needs to think for a single moment and realize these are just the facts. No single belief in a imaginary being is objectively superior to others.

 

[Striek]

I don't find hypocrisy in a zealots actions. I find hypocrisy by indulging religion at the highest levels in our society, particularly our civic leaders, but demonising those with inconvenient interpretations and/or stricter moral codes who are actually trying to, in their own minds, save or convert souls.

If you honestly believe in a diety and are somewhat concerned with the afterlife, you should probably be doing a lot more according to the big texts.

 

[Newt]

I don't get why you should expect people that don't believe in God to think the theological representation of God is somehow incomparable to Santa.

Santa, Easter Bunny, Zeus, Chthulu, tooth fairy, whatever theological flavor of God you want to pick, they all seem to not be real to me. Surely you don't think Zeus and other Olympian gods are real. I'm sure that you're comfortable comparing them to Santa. Your God is like that for us.

Honestly, I might be offended if someone was to compare Santa Claus to Zeus.

At least with having no understanding of lightning, a god like Zeus would be the logical conclusion.

I don't find hypocrisy in a zealots actions. I find hypocrisy by indulging religion at the highest levels in our society, particularly our civic leaders, but demonising those with inconvenient interpretations and/or stricter moral codes who are actually trying to, in their own minds, save or convert souls.

If you honestly believe in a diety and are somewhat concerned with the afterlife, you should probably be doing a lot more according to the big texts.

How can you not find hypocrisy in his actions?

 

[Erevador]

Those parents should head to his church and hand out copies of books, you know, to encourage literacy.

Here's a few recommendations:

 

[HiredN00bs]

It really is disrespectful to compare the two, generally speaking. The Santa myth never inspired its proponents to burn others at the stake or fly planes into skyscrapers. Abrahamic theism really is in a different class altogether.

 

[zoukka]

It's still the same damn thing. Magical imaginary beings you believe in.

If I go now and start believing the world is controlled by 12 invisible pink dragons, that belief is worth as much as every single belief in other imaginary things in the world. How long people have believed in it is completely fucking irrelevant.

I think you're the one that needs to think for a single moment and realize these are just the facts. No single belief in a imaginary being is objectively superior to others.

Of course they are not the same thing. We as a culture and society decide to ourselves which beliefs are allowed to prosper and some even get national advantages and special rights over others. Religion is ingrained to every level of our lives even though you personally would be an atheist (like I am).

In a pure theoretical level all the non-proved supernatural beliefs are the same. But on a practical level there is a difference between beliefs because of the influence and the amount of people who support such a belief. You can disagree, you can oppose and you can say that they are wrong, but you cannot however say that practicing the belief in a major world religion is the same as a child believing in santa. That is reductionist way of thinking.

 

[Sidewinder]

He's right though, Santa Clause is dead, the Orange Turd killed him, lock him up!

 

[Striek]

How can you not find hypocrisy in his actions?

Most of society believes, or professes belief in, a higher power (often God). No adult, or close enough to such, believes in Santa Claus.

One is known as a fairy tale, the other underpins most modern cultures.

 

[Preezy]

While I don't necessarily agree with this man's methods I do agree with his message. The truth of the matter is the Lord YOUR God gave his only begotten son on the first Christmas 2017 years ago.

I politely disagree.

 

[MUnited83]

Of course they are not the same thing. We as a culture and society decide to ourselves which beliefs are allowed to prosper and some even get national advantages and special rights over others. Religion is ingrained to every level of our lives even though you personally would be an atheist (like I am).

In a pure theoretical level all the non-proved supernatural beliefs are the same. But on a practical level there is a difference between beliefs because of the influence and the amount of people who support such a belief. You can disagree, you can oppose and you can say that they are wrong, but you cannot however say that practicing the belief in a major world religion is the same as a child believing in santa. That is reductionist way of thinking.

It is the same thing. The belief in Santa is allowed to prosper and millions of people believe in him. The age of those people is irrelevant. He's a extremely popular cultural icon, hundreds, thousands, millions of media are about him and the myth of santa. It even shapes behaviours as kids are told if they are bad they won't get presents, like christians when told the same about going to heaven.


Once again, yes, they are the same thing. Somebody that actually needs that they are getting belittled or ridiculed by people comparing God to Santa need a lot of self-reflection. Their belief is not better, not superior to the belief in Santa.

 

[zoukka]

It is the same thing. The belief in Santa is allowed to prosper and millions of people believe in him. The age of those people is irrelevant. He's a extremely popular cultural icon, hundreds, thousands, millions of media are about him and the myth of santa. It even shapes behaviours as kids are told if they are bad they won't get presents, like christians when told the same about going to heaven.


Once again, yes, they are the same thing.

With such broad strokes one might say classical philosophy and the emo movement are they same exact thing.

 

[MUnited83]

With such broad strokes one might say classical philosophy and the emo movement are they same exact thing.

Classical Philosophy and the emo movement are two different things.




A belief in a made up thing is a belief in a made up thing.

 

[zoukka]

Classical Philosophy and the emo movement are two different things.




A belief in a made up thing is a belief in a made up thing.

So " a belief is the same as a completely different belief" but "a philosophy and a completely different philosophy are different things"

You seem quite zealous in your train of thought.

 

[MUnited83]

So " a belief is the same as a completely different belief" but "a philosophy and a completely different philosophy are different things"

You seem quite zealous in your train of thought.

Tell me, what do you think about climate change deniers? Shouldn't they be compared with people that believe in other crazy things? Just because millions believe on thing it doesn't make that thing worth any more than others.

 

[Always-honest]

Pastors, there is no god.

 

[HiredN00bs]

Tell me, what do you think about climate change deniers? Shouldn't they be compared with people that believe in other crazy things? Just because millions believe on thing it doesn't make that thing worth any more than others.

They're saying that religion is more than just an abstract belief. It's culture, literature, community. There are a lot more implications than getting your picture taken at the mall. That's all.

 

[MUnited83]

They're saying that religion is more than just an abstract belief. It's culture, literature, community. There are a lot more implications than getting your picture taken at the mall. That's all.

That's all abstract beliefs provided they linger for long enough though. Even Santa is culture, literature, and even community. Shit, even batshit new recent beliefs can fill all those boxes.

 

[HiredN00bs]

Pastors, there is no god.

See, I prefer becoming a Santa aplogist.

"You can't prove Santa doesn't exist."

"Well, of course he doesn't deliver to every house, only to those with good boys and girls. Also, some parents have money to buy presents and Santa doesn't need to come to those houses."

"Would you rather live in a world with a Santa or without a Santa?"

"Santa believes in you."

"I know you have a lot of questions, and here's something that could perhaps give you some answers." *hands over copy of The Santa Clause starring Tim Allen*

 

[Dalek]

I don't get why you should expect people that don't believe in God to think the theological representation of God is somehow incomparable to Santa.

Santa, Easter Bunny, Zeus, Chthulu, tooth fairy, whatever theological flavor of God you want to pick, they all seem to not be real to me. Surely you don't think Zeus and other Olympian gods are real. I'm sure that you're comfortable comparing them to Santa. Your God is like that for us.

What about Bigfoot? And whatever happened to Leprechauns? They were a big thing a while back. You never hear about them anymore.

 

[HiredN00bs]

That's all abstract beliefs provided they linger for long enough though. Even Santa is culture, literature, and even community. Shit, even batshit new recent beliefs can fill all those boxes.

Conceptually, but not in practice. The prevalence and influence on surrounding systems matters and is a noteworthy distinction.

 

[zoukka]

Conceptually, but not in practice. The prevalence and influence on surrounding systems matters and is a noteworthy distinction.

This. You said it more elegantly than I could.

 

[ArjanN]

See, I prefer becoming a Santa aplogist.

"You can't prove Santa doesn't exist."

"Well, of course he doesn't deliver to every house, only to those with good boys and girls. Also, some parents have money to buy presents and Santa doesn't need to come to those houses."

"Would you rather live in a world with a Santa or without a Santa?"

"Santa believes in you."

"I know you have a lot of questions, and here's something that could perhaps give you some answers." *hands over copy of The Santa Clause starring Tim Allen*

Heh, that would probably actually be a much better way to counter the guy, since he would be expecting the whole "Yeah but God isn't real either" angle.

 

[MUnited83]

Conceptually, but not in practice. The prevalence and influence on surrounding systems matters and is a noteworthy distinction.

So can people be pissed when other people compare their religion to another religion that just doesn't have a similar number of followers, cultural importance or history?


That's seems extremely illogical.

 

[Always-honest]

See, I prefer becoming a Santa aplogist.

"You can't prove Santa doesn't exist."

"Well, of course he doesn't deliver to every house, only to those with good boys and girls. Also, some parents have money to buy presents and Santa doesn't need to come to those houses."

"Would you rather live in a world with a Santa or without a Santa?"

"Santa believes in you."

"I know you have a lot of questions, and here's something that could perhaps give you some answers." *hands over copy of The Santa Clause starring Tim Allen*

Haha.

 

[zoukka]

So can people be pissed when other people compare their religion to another religion that just doesn't have a similar number of followers, cultural importance or history?


That's seems extremely illogical.

Not acknowledging history, culture and societal structures is illogical. One might say it's delusional even.

 

[MUnited83]

Not acknowledging history, culture and societal structures is illogical. One might say it's delusional even.

So what is the exact objective point where a religion ascends to a certain greatness where you can no longer compare them? Hinduism cannot be compared to Christianity because it has existed for longer? How does this work, exactly?

 

[Dagobert Duck]

And damn right he is! Baby Jesus* brings all the awesome presents!

*Baby Jesus: The stork accidently dropped Baby Jesus onto Yoshi's Island and now the Yoshi's try to bring him back to his parents, the roam the world and drop off presents on the go...

 

[KDR_11k]

Belief in Santa and in JHVH can be the same thing, it's called Catholicism.

 

[zoukka]

So what is the exact objective point where a religion ascends to a certain greatness where you can no longer compare them? Hinduism cannot be compared to Christianity because it has existed for longer? How does this work, exactly?

There is no rulebook (which you surely know, but refuse to acknowledge for the sake of having an argument). Humans have debated over religion and philosophy for as long as we have existed and no clear or great agreement or conclusion can ever be found.

But using common sense we have "the great religions of the world" that most educational systems agree upon and teach their existence and history in schools. Their influence is well known and can be tracked back pretty far.

Santa-clausism or the church of the Jedi do not belong to these religions for example.

 

[MUnited83]

There is no rulebook (which you surely know, but refuse to acknowledge for the sake of having an argument). Humans have debated over religion and philosophy for as long as we have existed and no clear or great agreement or conclusion can ever be found.

But using common sense we have "the great religions of the world" that most educational systems agree upon and teach their existence and history in schools. Their influence is well known and can be tracked back pretty far.

Santa-clausism or the church of the Jedi do not belong to these religions for example.

Yet none of those make it more right, factual or worth more than any other belief in imaginary things, which is the point.

 

[Timedog]

Grow up.

Yes there is no proof that religious deities exist, but religions are as old as humanity with billions of followers and have shaped our culture as a species. Santa is the mascot for Coca-cola.

Get off your internet cool kid horse and think for a moment before shitposting.

Appeal to antiquity.

Edit: Oh whoops, thread has moved far past this post.

 

[Keasar]

What America should do is to change the name from "Christmas" to "Yule" like Swedish "Jul".

It basically takes all the power from anyone trying to push a Christian message and just refocuses it on the holiday itself. Works wonders here since nobody pays any attention to a Jesus (who wasn't born on Christmas anyway). We Swedes are (in 93% of the case anyway) now doing this for the food, booze and gifts and more booze, by Santa's beard the liqueur flows during this time. It becomes so much harder to take people like this guy then seriously.

Only problem is that Christian Evangelicals in the US. will loose their shit and those crazies have guns.

 

[Pantaghana]

Grow up.

Yes there is no proof that religious deities exist, but religions are as old as humanity with billions of followers and have shaped our culture as a species. Santa is the mascot for Coca-cola.

Get off your internet cool kid horse and think for a moment before shitposting.

Santa existed centuries before Coca-Cola.

 

[zoukka]

Yet none of those make it more right, factual or worth more than any other belief in imaginary things, which is the point.

You are back where you started and ignoring all the posts various people directed at you. Cultural impact has factual, tangible worth. Philosophical weight and importance is constantly debated over and some of them (christianity in west for example) are deemed more right than others. You can disagree with the beliefs, but can't ignore the effects those beliefs have on society and humanity and compare them to whatever random examples.

Santa existed centuries before Coca-Cola.

I'm a finn so believe me I know.

What America should do is to change the name from "Christmas" to "Yule" like Swedish "Jul".

It basically takes all the power from anyone trying to push a Christian message and just refocuses it on the holiday itself. Works wonders here since nobody pays any attention to a Jesus (who wasn't born on Christmas anyway). We Swedes are (in 93% of the case anyway) now doing this for the food, booze and gifts and more booze, by Santa's beard the liqueur flows during this time. It becomes so much harder to take people like this guy then seriously.

Only problem is that Christian Evangelicals in the US. will loose their shit and those crazies have guns.

Even non-religious people go to church (out of habit) in Sweden and in Finland, you are pushing pretty one sided view on this to mock america

 

[MUnited83]

You are back where you started and ignoring all the posts various people directed at you. Cultural impact has factual, tangible worth. Philosophical weight and importance is constantly debated over and some of them (christianity in west for example) are deemed more right than others. You can disagree with the beliefs, but can't ignore the effects those beliefs have on society and humanity and compare them to whatever random examples.



I'm a finn so believe me I know.



Even non-religious people go to church (out of habit) in Sweden and in Finland, you are pushing pretty one sided view on this to mock america

Not sure that you+ one other person actually qualifies as "various". And once again, nothing you said goes against my point. There is objective worth that a belief in imaginary things is superior to others.

Following your logic, I might as well start saying Hinduism is factually and objectively superior to Christianism, and anyone that attempts to compare the two is belittling me.

 

[zoukka]

Not sure that you+ one other person actually qualifies as "various". And once again, nothing you said goes against my point. There is objective worth that a belief in imaginary things is superior to others.

Following your logic, I might as well start saying Hinduism is factually and objectively superior to Christianism, and anyone that attempts to compare the two is belittling me.

Dunno where you got "superior" to this discussion. "Cultural importance" is something you can measure, "superiority" is pretty subjective.

 

[elfinke]

 

[Keasar]

Even non-religious people go to church (out of habit) in Sweden and in Finland, you are pushing pretty one sided view on this to mock america

Those people are very few in comparison. Most people don't bother, don't have to go through the winter cold to go to a boring mass when you can stay home and eat warm food instead. There are people that does, I do not deny that, but they can't be many anymore. Mostly people of the oldest generations probably does (and rurals).

A lot of people get married in churches even though they are non-religious because its more traditional and quite ceremonious but not out of respect for God or Jesus.

 

[John Kowalski]

I always knew santa wasn't real and I came out ok

 

[zoukka]

Those people are very few in comparison. Most people don't bother, don't have to go through the winter cold to go to a boring mass when you can stay home and eat warm food instead. There are people that does, I do not deny that, but they can't be many anymore. Mostly people of the oldest generations probably does (and rurals).

A lot of people get married in churches even though they are non-religious because its more traditional and quite ceremonious but not out of respect for God or Jesus.

One study concluded that in Finland 38 % of the populace say they are believers and 16 % are practicing believers.

Yes it's pretty low compared to the rest of the world, but it's not like religion has disappeared from the nordics yet.

 

[Pantaghana]

I'm a finn so believe me I know.

Why knowingly make a factually wrong statement?

Regardless of one's religious views and beliefs, comparing belief in god (or gods) and belief in Santa is a valid comparison.

Both are mythical characters.
Both date back to centuries of tradition.
Both have books written and stories told about them.
Both have believers.

The only significant difference is that Santa's believers are exclusively small children.

 

[Alienous]

See, I prefer becoming a Santa aplogist.

"You can't prove Santa doesn't exist."

"Well, of course he doesn't deliver to every house, only to those with good boys and girls. Also, some parents have money to buy presents and Santa doesn't need to come to those houses."

"Would you rather live in a world with a Santa or without a Santa?"

"Santa believes in you."

"I know you have a lot of questions, and here's something that could perhaps give you some answers." *hands over copy of The Santa Clause starring Tim Allen*

Santa obscures his existence to test if you've really been good...

 

[StayDead]

The man you’re going to see today is just a man in a suit dressed up like Santa

So you're telling me these people are dressing up like Santa.

So Santa is real?

 

[Keasar]

One study concluded that in Finland 38 % of the populace say they are believers and 16 % are practicing believers.

Yes it's pretty low compared to the rest of the world, but it's not like religion has disappeared from the nordics yet.

Yeah but that's Finland. When you consume so much homebrewed alcohol, have the Northern Lights in the sky all the time and live right next to a crazy neighbour like Russia, you're bound to start believing you're seeing weird stuff.