D
Deleted member 22576
Unconfirmed Member
This is not her fault.
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14 year old girl has baby in toilet and then kills it
- Thread starter Zee-Row
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shadyspace
Banned
It used to be. The backslide we've been experiencing with abortion access has been nuts.
perfectchaos007
Member
I wonder how the father feels about this. His son was murdered 
It will be interesting to find out how old the father is. Wouldn't be surprised if he was over 18.
It will be interesting to find out how old the father is. Wouldn't be surprised if he was over 18.
speculawyer
Member
The father is probably hoping she won't tell. :-/I wonder how the father feels about this. His son was murdered
It will be interesting to find out how old the father is. Wouldn't be surprised if he was over 18.
And this is what she said
Only a lass
You really can't blame him
Only a lass
Society made him
Only a lass
She's our responsibility
Only a lass
She really couldn't help it
Only a lass
She didn't want to do it
Only a lass
She's underprivileged and abused
Perhaps a little bit confused
perfectchaos007
Member
Yeah, especially if he's over 17. He's probably shaking in his shoes.
Can the court force her to reveal her baby daddy's name? (Assuming she didn't have multiple partners near time of conception)
Devolution
Member
Just for reference I looked up the nearest clinics. There is one in her high school's town for contraception and morning after pills. And there is an abortion clinic 17 miles away. If she had been educated on her options and able to talk to her parents she wouldn't have even had to leave her hometown for a morning after pill. If it was past the point of that but still within the abortion time frame it would have been less than a half an hour (at freeway speeds) drive to the nearest abortion clinic. But because her mother is a fucking failure we're at this end.
dr3upmushroom
Banned
Me too man, fucking hell, could the thread title have just been "Disgusting story junkies, this one's for you" or something?
so you draw the line there and make an exception for anything pre puberty?
im wondering how you can decide when a person is culpable
Meus Renaissance
Member
Stories like this are surprisingly more common than you'd think, irrespective of the age of the mother. It reminds me of ancient brothels e.g. in Ancient Rome where many women would do similar after giving birth
Meus Renaissance
Member
So who is to blame for the death of this child? The law? The parents? The girl herself? I can't tell you from your posts
Devolution
Member
I already said the mother is the one who should be criminally prosecuted, I don't know enough of the story to know what other adults in her life failed her and as a result the baby as well.
Schadenfreude
Member
She shouldn't be tried as an adult. All of her actions clearly show she's still just a child. I mean, she thought murdering her baby and hiding it in her room would work. If that isn't the mindset of a child, then I don't know what is. If anything, the mom holds most of the blame because she deliberately ignored her daughter's pregnancy which was what lead to all this. They'll probably charge her with manslaughter. At least I hope they do.
All of the above
Canis lupus
Member
Disgusting. What in the world.
Meus Renaissance
Member
Yeah I'm not going to put any effort into processing this comment
Devolution
Member
Um okay?
Essentially this is a story about two females failing as parents.
Except one of them is a child who lacks resources and understanding and the other is an adult who has literally no excuse for not knowing any better.
The 14 year old girl needs help. That's obvious.
Her mother was criminally negligent toward the care and safety of her child and should be punished accordingly. (Being willfully blind qualifies as a form of criminal negligence.)
D
Deleted member 22576
Unconfirmed Member
I don't think that's "the line" she drew.. I actually didn't see her draw a line at all. And trust me I've been playing hexagon all day so I know a fuckton about lines right now. It's easy to look at the facts here and see how incredibly incredibly simple it would have been for this baby to end up in the appropriate hands. The FACT is that the mother/adults in this story literally WENT OUT OF THEIR WAY to contribute to how nightmarish this situation ended.
speculawyer
Member
What do you charge her with? Being an idiot is not a crime.
Kids have sex these days even younger , its hard to avoid. I just wish kids were more smart about it and had better counseling.
It says in the article that friends and family confronted her about her daughter's obvious pregnancy and tried to get her to deal with it, but she continued to deny.
It wouldn't have actually taken a genius to predict this outcome given those circumstances.
Schadenfreude
Member
Manslaughter. The mother ignored the pregnancy and it led to the death of the baby. If the mother had not ignored her daughter's pregnancy, the baby would be alive today.
perfectchaos007
Member
In an ideal world we would administer parenting tests like drivers license tests just before a woman wants to try to get pregnant, and they wouldn't be allowed to have unprotected sex until they pass a parenting test. That would be an ideal hypothetical, but unfortunately there's no minimum age, IQ, or common sense for a woman to have children.
D
Deleted member 22576
Unconfirmed Member
have you seen the way people drive
But what if she didn't know better since her mother raised her badly, should we haul granny into jail too?
ClassyPenguin
Banned
Teens have always had sex and will always have sex. The point is educating and having enough resources available so they know the consequences and know that they can confide in adults to help them not punish them.
D
Deleted member 22576
Unconfirmed Member
Call the courthouse. Get the census. We've got some posthumous finger pointing to do here.
speculawyer
Member
Yeah, I guess some criminal negligence. Manslaughter is too much.
I just find the arbitrary age that dictates when you are tried as an adult to be disgustingly variable in terms of the persons IQ and development. There should be a more philosophical way of determining a persons cognitive abilities and determine if they are dangerous.
I find it slightly worrisome that so many people seem to think that murdering a child is the most horrible and evil thing you can possibly do but neglecting -- and actively making decisions that essentially damage -- your child is out of your hands, beyond human control, something that happens and not at all an adult's responsibility.
Do some people seriously think your responsibilities as a parent only extend to food and oxygen?
I see what you're getting at, but a 14 year old is still developing and under the care of their parent. Her mother was an adult. There are really basic but obvious differences between adults and children. A child who is neglected and misinformed might not know about their responsibilities or options. An adult woman who has raised a child for fourteen years has no excuse for not knowing any better. There is a reason adults and children face different standards in court and it has to do with experience, exposure to ideas/knowledge, and mental and emotional development. Her mother should be held to a different standard because she had many more choices and actively and deliberately made the wrong ones for her own peace of mind and comfort -- which led to her daughter having fewer choices as a direct result.
Do some people seriously think your responsibilities as a parent only extend to food and oxygen?
I see what you're getting at, but a 14 year old is still developing and under the care of their parent. Her mother was an adult. There are really basic but obvious differences between adults and children. A child who is neglected and misinformed might not know about their responsibilities or options. An adult woman who has raised a child for fourteen years has no excuse for not knowing any better. There is a reason adults and children face different standards in court and it has to do with experience, exposure to ideas/knowledge, and mental and emotional development. Her mother should be held to a different standard because she had many more choices and actively and deliberately made the wrong ones for her own peace of mind and comfort -- which led to her daughter having fewer choices as a direct result.
Meus Renaissance
Member
Based on what? The only negligence here is perhaps her failure to be present when the girl did the tests? Some would say the display of parental negligence here is the girl getting pregnant in the first place. Further, to my confusion the mother supported her daughter to get a test, not once but twice. She trusted her to be honest about the result. She didn't believe she was pregnant.
I think this girl was scared to tell her mum she was pregnant, hence the quote about their close relationship. We don't even know whether her mum would have opposed an abortion for her, she may very well have even suggested it in the likelihood of the girl being honest about her test results. I don't think the story is as much about abortion, but rather that an unwanted pregnancy overwhelmed any recognition that the baby was alive. She refused to accept it and was therefore willing to kill it. Even after giving birth, she didn't consider merely giving the baby away or leaving it at a hospital because, presumably, she didn't want the chance of her mother finding out. This isn't indicative of 'normal' levels of thinking - this is a horror story that will challenge people's perceptions of how circumstances can dehumanise even a child, because even if you lack the option for abortion, the subsequent strangling of the baby after birth is incomprehensible.
D
Deleted member 22576
Unconfirmed Member
Again I view that as your interpretation of the phrase "she's fourteen.." that's not the important part. That's just a way of saying "she's very young and ignorant. receiving feedback from adults and guardians that denial is the correct response."
This is not a debate about how to correctly determine cognitive ability. That would be a far more interesting thread.
Edit: you know I read that whole post but missed the words "tried as an adult" I thought that argument was directed at devo and not the system/laws etc.
Yeah yeah carry on sorry to pipe in... There's enough pipe'n going over here as it is. I am so c cues right now.
Meus Renaissance
Member
Are we reading from the same source? Can you list in bullet points evidence for this? The mother didn't even know she was pregnant...
Based on what? I'm confused
Devolution
Member
I think all this should be taken in count when the girl faces trial (and they will). As for the mother she shouldn't face any charges from this like some here suggest. Until we actually have laws against bad parenting there isn't anything we should do.
Saying the mother made deliberately wrong choices is also big leap. What if the mother himself was dealt bad cards from the begin and simply didn't know how to raise a child any better then she did. Some people make choices for own peace of mind and comfort for selfish reasons and some because they simply don't have the mental capacity to handle these things for reason or other.
I don't think the girl should be tried as adult. I don't either think she should get free pass. She committed murder. While the murder was most certainly result of her surroundings it doesn't mean she had no part in it.
Wait, are you suggesting that she's probably a great and attentive mom because she couldn't possibly be expected to know that her teenager might lie to her about sex?
As I said before: willful blindness is a form of criminal negligence. Deliberately choosing to believe in a pleasant lie despite the supplied evidence is a form of neglect because it takes away the necessary support system the child required.
She was confronted by two people living outside of her house who don't see her daughter as regularly as she does who were able to tell that she was pregnant.
She chose to let her daughter administer the pregnancy test alone even though her suspicions were obviously great enough that they tested twice. She knew what was right in front of her eyes but was comforted by the lie, and so choose to believe it. The girl was visibly pregnant enough that outsiders could see it and you seriously believe that the woman who lived in the same house with her had no way of knowing?
And that's just from what is in the article, not taking into account the obvious assumptions one might make about the child's apparent lack of knowledge regarding pregnancy and birth control.
14 years old is old enough to know good from bad, and to know that killing is just plain wrong.
I'd understand if she was afraid for her life he she had had the baby. But killing it just because she didn't want her relation with her mother to change is just wrong when you're 14.
Still I'll never know what goes through someone head when you have an unwanted pregnancy.
Then again I'd put the blame almost all on the parents because they are at fault for bad parenting all over the place, voluntary blindness and stupidity.
I'd understand if she was afraid for her life he she had had the baby. But killing it just because she didn't want her relation with her mother to change is just wrong when you're 14.
Still I'll never know what goes through someone head when you have an unwanted pregnancy.
Then again I'd put the blame almost all on the parents because they are at fault for bad parenting all over the place, voluntary blindness and stupidity.
Which isn't a good thing.
Especially with the state of sex education and the fact that teens (espeially younger ones) are mostly dumb as shit when it comes to the real wrld. Teenage pregnancies and shit like that is completely atrocious.
A 100 pound 14 year old girl gave birth in her own bathroom by herself with no training and neither her nor the baby were seriously injured by the process? That's pretty incredible.
I can't imagine how scared she must have been to do something like that. There's no good reason to take that route if she didn't want to have the baby. She must have been terrified to hide it from her mother for months on end.
It's just such a shitty situation all around.
I can't imagine how scared she must have been to do something like that. There's no good reason to take that route if she didn't want to have the baby. She must have been terrified to hide it from her mother for months on end.
It's just such a shitty situation all around.
But here is the thing: the mother chose to raise this child. Just as a 14-year-old girl will have to face the consequences of murdering her child rather than giving it up for adoption, an adult woman should be required to face the consequences of failing her child that she chose to raise rather than giving up for adoption.
It is not always the grand, noble, and selfless choice to raise a child. If you are not fit to be a parent, don't be one. Raising a child you are not capable of educating and informing about the realities of the world they live in is a selfish, abusive, and neglectful act of ego.
I'm not saying the mother needs to be charged with homicide or manslaughter, but I do think she should be held accountable for the part she played in her grandson's death.
And personally I'd prefer the girl be sentenced to time in a mental health facility. She seems to at least partially be a product of environment, and that won't be improved by time spent in prison. It's possible she is too damaged by these circumstances and will never fully reintegrate into society, but I think her odds are a whole lot better if she receives professional help. Probably better for her and also for the world she would eventually be released back into.
cutmeamango
Banned
This one is hard.
On one hand, she's fourteen only.
On the other hand, she's fourteen already.
The mom screwed up in a number of things, but sadly, nothing criminal (in my opinion).
Or else jail population would be immense in every country.
On one hand, she's fourteen only.
On the other hand, she's fourteen already.
The mom screwed up in a number of things, but sadly, nothing criminal (in my opinion).
Or else jail population would be immense in every country.
So do we go and arrest all mothers and fathers of those young gang bangers who end up selling drugs or killing people? Failing as a parent for any reason is not a crime.
I agree, unfortunately we do live in a world where people are not aware of their shortcomings. Nor do we have rules set in stone that we could follow and decide whether we can be good parents.
We do not have laws or guidelines how to be good parent nor guidelines on how much sex-ed parents should give their children so I don't see on what grounds would the mother be prosecuted.
I agree.
Femmeworth
Banned
What an awful story. I just hope she gets the help she needs.
All that effort to hide the pregnancy and thats where she hides the corpse. Just... Wow.
It's just baffling how stupid everyone in this story seem to be. The girl, her mother and relatives, and the school aren't blameless either. Why didn't any of her relative just bypass the mother and speak to the girl? How is it that no teachers noticed the change and refered her to the school nurse or guidance counselor?
Sounds like everyone just choose to ignore it until it was too late. No one comes out of this looking good.
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