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[Windom Earle]

Which makes me think we'll see PS4 @>1.6ghz as well. Seems like there is room for that. I know it may related to cooling as well, but compared to a desktop pcs both boxes are pretty small and close to each other.

But anyway, the impact of this OC will be really insignifcant. My i52500k runs @1.2ghz more, granted, that MAKES a difference, but it's also 10x the OC.

Nope, according to Leadbetter it's not possible on PS4 (lol)

"The speed increase to both major elements of the Xbox One processor is a further nail in the coffin of the theory that Microsoft had problems with its yield - the amount of useable chips that come off the production line.

Increasing speeds typically causes the yield to drop, and can cause problems with heat owing to the additional power draw. According to Anandtech's analysis of the Jaguar CPU hardware utilised by the next-gen consoles, a 25 per cent boost to CPU speed results in a 66 per cent increase in power consumption and 1.6GHz - the clock speed for PlayStation 4 - is thought to be the sweet spot in terms of performance per watt for the architecture. The fact that Microsoft has managed to extract that extra performance speaks to the efficiency of the console's cooling assembly and internal airflow. Similar performance increases with PlayStation 4 are unlikely owing to the much smaller casing."

 

[Guymelef]

Nope, according to Leadbetter it's not possible on PS4 (lol)

"The speed increase to both major elements of the Xbox One processor is a further nail in the coffin of the theory that Microsoft had problems with its yield - the amount of useable chips that come off the production line.

Increasing speeds typically causes the yield to drop, and can cause problems with heat owing to the additional power draw. According to Anandtech's analysis of the Jaguar CPU hardware utilised by the next-gen consoles, a 25 per cent boost to CPU speed results in a 66 per cent increase in power consumption and 1.6GHz - the clock speed for PlayStation 4 - is thought to be the sweet spot in terms of performance per watt for the architecture. The fact that Microsoft has managed to extract that extra performance speaks to the efficiency of the console's cooling assembly and internal airflow. Similar performance increases with PlayStation 4 are unlikely owing to the much smaller casing."

Yeah, 150Mhz heat can burn an entire forest.

 

[Skeff]

I said in SOME respects it's crazier, and it is... If there's some magical dGPU hidden in the XB!, at least it would have been there all along, but kept a secret. In this case, for a console such as the PS4, in what seems like a casing that doesn't lend itself well to such massive overclocks, people really think that there's any chance in hell Sony would release the PS4 with clocks at 1.6GHZ for the CPU and 800MHZ for the GPU, and then suddenly years down the road magically raise the clocks to 2GHZ on the CPU and 1GHZ on the GPU without any consideration of what this could do to consoles already out in the wild?

Like I said, this is in some respects even more insane than believing Microsoft are hiding a dGPU inside the Xbox One lol, but this shouldn't be confused to mean I'm saying that both aren't absolutely insane, because they are.

As already pointed out the chips would be designed and tested for these speeds, and would simply be at lower clock speeds to extend the lifetime of the console, there is no need to be above 1.8Tflops yet in exactly the same way there was no need to be at greater than 222Mhz on the PSP, Your right about them being different though, The cooling system will be much more comprehensive than the Passive system used in the PSP.

EDIT: to make it easier to understand the chips would be like if you had a CPU in your PC that was sold at 2Ghz, but your running it at 1.6 Ghz to save power and extend the life of the chip, there would be no problem raising it to 2Ghz, of course the decision to do this would have already been made now. They won't be deciding to do it later, the chips would have had to have been designed like that from the start.

 

[gamemadmax]

Nope, according to Leadbetter it's not possible on PS4 (lol)

"The speed increase to both major elements of the Xbox One processor is a further nail in the coffin of the theory that Microsoft had problems with its yield - the amount of useable chips that come off the production line.

Increasing speeds typically causes the yield to drop, and can cause problems with heat owing to the additional power draw. According to Anandtech's analysis of the Jaguar CPU hardware utilised by the next-gen consoles, a 25 per cent boost to CPU speed results in a 66 per cent increase in power consumption and 1.6GHz - the clock speed for PlayStation 4 - is thought to be the sweet spot in terms of performance per watt for the architecture. The fact that Microsoft has managed to extract that extra performance speaks to the efficiency of the console's cooling assembly and internal airflow. Similar performance increases with PlayStation 4 are unlikely owing to the much smaller casing."

like a pr

 

[Arkham]

A 1GHZ PS4 GPU wouldn't just be stronger than the Xbox One. It would be murder lol. A 2GHZ PS4 CPU would probably fry the system

I think you will be surprised. If it's not 2/1, I have a feeling it's going to be pretty close. 1.9(1.85)/900(850). No tips, just an itch. Same basic hardware, so similar flexibility. Sony's better at hardware.

 

[Krakn3Dfx]

Nope, according to Leadbetter it's not possible on PS4 (lol)

"The speed increase to both major elements of the Xbox One processor is a further nail in the coffin of the theory that Microsoft had problems with its yield - the amount of useable chips that come off the production line.

Increasing speeds typically causes the yield to drop, and can cause problems with heat owing to the additional power draw. According to Anandtech's analysis of the Jaguar CPU hardware utilised by the next-gen consoles, a 25 per cent boost to CPU speed results in a 66 per cent increase in power consumption and 1.6GHz - the clock speed for PlayStation 4 - is thought to be the sweet spot in terms of performance per watt for the architecture. The fact that Microsoft has managed to extract that extra performance speaks to the efficiency of the console's cooling assembly and internal airflow. Similar performance increases with PlayStation 4 are unlikely owing to the much smaller casing."

Leadbetter - Overpaid blogger and thermal engineer

Is there anything that man can't do?

 

[velociraptor]

Nope, according to Leadbetter it's not possible on PS4 (lol)

"The speed increase to both major elements of the Xbox One processor is a further nail in the coffin of the theory that Microsoft had problems with its yield - the amount of useable chips that come off the production line.

Increasing speeds typically causes the yield to drop, and can cause problems with heat owing to the additional power draw. According to Anandtech's analysis of the Jaguar CPU hardware utilised by the next-gen consoles, a 25 per cent boost to CPU speed results in a 66 per cent increase in power consumption and 1.6GHz - the clock speed for PlayStation 4 - is thought to be the sweet spot in terms of performance per watt for the architecture. The fact that Microsoft has managed to extract that extra performance speaks to the efficiency of the console's cooling assembly and internal airflow. Similar performance increases with PlayStation 4 are unlikely owing to the much smaller casing."

I used to think Digital Foundry were actually a legit tech source for the consoles. But I guess multiplatform comparisons will be fun.

 

[Guymelef]

Leadbetter - Overpaid blogger and thermal engineer

Is there anything that man can't do?

What do you think? he is the "Blacksmith of the Future"

 

[badb0y]

What are you guys smoking lol? Upclock GPU to 1 Ghz and upclock CPU to 2 Ghz?

I don't think so, especially not the GPU clock. Maybe the CPU will see a clock boost but that would be a reactionary move by Sony.

 

[Cuyejo]

Nope, according to Leadbetter it's not possible on PS4 (lol)

"The speed increase to both major elements of the Xbox One processor is a further nail in the coffin of the theory that Microsoft had problems with its yield - the amount of useable chips that come off the production line.

Increasing speeds typically causes the yield to drop, and can cause problems with heat owing to the additional power draw. According to Anandtech's analysis of the Jaguar CPU hardware utilised by the next-gen consoles, a 25 per cent boost to CPU speed results in a 66 per cent increase in power consumption and 1.6GHz - the clock speed for PlayStation 4 - is thought to be the sweet spot in terms of performance per watt for the architecture. The fact that Microsoft has managed to extract that extra performance speaks to the efficiency of the console's cooling assembly and internal airflow. Similar performance increases with PlayStation 4 are unlikely owing to the much smaller casing."

OK now, this is laughable, it's like he doesn't try to hide it anymore...

 

[Crisco]

Nope, according to Leadbetter it's not possible on PS4 (lol)

"The speed increase to both major elements of the Xbox One processor is a further nail in the coffin of the theory that Microsoft had problems with its yield - the amount of useable chips that come off the production line.

Increasing speeds typically causes the yield to drop, and can cause problems with heat owing to the additional power draw. According to Anandtech's analysis of the Jaguar CPU hardware utilised by the next-gen consoles, a 25 per cent boost to CPU speed results in a 66 per cent increase in power consumption and 1.6GHz - the clock speed for PlayStation 4 - is thought to be the sweet spot in terms of performance per watt for the architecture. The fact that Microsoft has managed to extract that extra performance speaks to the efficiency of the console's cooling assembly and internal airflow. Similar performance increases with PlayStation 4 are unlikely owing to the much smaller casing."

The worst part is that they drag Anandtech, one of the most reputable tech sites on the net, into their carnival of stupidity.

 

[Majanew]

If Sony's confident enough to pack all that in such a small case, I think they probably can one up MS and upclock the CPU as well. Maybe they don't see this upclock as a threat and won't bother to change anything.

Sony shouldn't view it as a "threat". Sony should improve the PS4 if it is possible. If they can upclock PS4's GPU/CPU without problems, then they should. No reason to not improve the system if they can.

 

[Ding]

What are you talking about? The CPUs are exactly the same, the GPUs are of the same architecture.

We don't know that the CPUs are the same. They may be, but there has been some language to suggest that MS modified "their CPU" to some degree. It might be a tiny change, (my guess) or it might not.

The GPUs are (probably) of the same AMD "family". But they probably do not have precisely the same feature set, and each has definitely been further modified by Sony and MS, respectively. Sony (well, Sony fans) brag about those changes constantly. I'm surprised you've missed it. : ) MS has been quieter on the specifics. But given how fancy-schmancy their uncore architecture is, it's all but inconceivable that they didn't muck about with the GPU internals as well.

None of that implies better or worse. Just different.

 

[Windom Earle]

I used to think Digital Foundry were actually a legit tech source for the consoles. But I guess multiplatform comparisons will be fun.

I defended the guy even beyond the FFXIII PS3 debacle, but he is in permanent meltdown mode lately. Entertaining but sad to see DF going down that lane.

 

[dragonelite]

I could have believed an upclock apu for ps4 rumor if they announced it this week.
Wouldn't be surprised if the 2Ghz cpu clock update rumor will be true i wouldn't be surprised if sony will first wait when the bank account is fattened up to pay for YLOD2.0

If they announce a 25% general overclock i will preorder one a 2.4Tflops console at least sounds worth getting for some multiplat titles.

 

[gamemadmax]

What are you guys smoking lol? Upclock GPU to 1 Ghz and upclock CPU to 2 Ghz?

I don't think so, especially not the GPU clock. Maybe the CPU will see a clock boost but that would be a reactionary move by Sony.

it may or may not

ms was reactionary too and its good for them

eurogamer is reporting it
ms guy confirming on gaf
now thats good pr

 

[IN&OUT]

Nope, according to Leadbetter it's not possible on PS4 (lol)

"The speed increase to both major elements of the Xbox One processor is a further nail in the coffin of the theory that Microsoft had problems with its yield - the amount of useable chips that come off the production line.

Increasing speeds typically causes the yield to drop, and can cause problems with heat owing to the additional power draw. According to Anandtech's analysis of the Jaguar CPU hardware utilised by the next-gen consoles, a 25 per cent boost to CPU speed results in a 66 per cent increase in power consumption and 1.6GHz - the clock speed for PlayStation 4 - is thought to be the sweet spot in terms of performance per watt for the architecture. The fact that Microsoft has managed to extract that extra performance speaks to the efficiency of the console's cooling assembly and internal airflow. Similar performance increases with PlayStation 4 are unlikely owing to the much smaller casing."

the damn thing is huge and empty inside with very conservative specs, nothing special about it at all.

just look at any gaming laptop, smaller castings with 3-4 times X1 specs.

 

[badb0y]

We don't know that the CPUs are the same. They may be, but there has been some language to suggest that MS modified "their CPU" to some degree. It might be a tiny change, (my guess) or it might not.

The GPUs are (probably) of the same AMD "family". But they probably do not have precisely the same feature set, and each has definitely been further modified by Sony and MS, respectively. Sony (well, Sony fans) brag about those changes constantly. I'm surprised you've missed it. : ) MS has been quieter on the specifics. But given how fancy-schmancy their uncore architecture is, it's all but inconceivable that they didn't muck about with the GPU internals as well.

None of that implies better or worse. Just different.

It's the same Jaguar cores though.

 

[RoboPlato]

Hopefully we get some hard CPU numbers on PS4 soon. I've been saying for months that it's odd they haven't released that spec while being so open about everything else. I just want some hard numbers so we can make some real comparisons without guesswork.

 

[dmg04]

Just a question, as I am illiterate in the nature of hardware:

How does a speed increase "prove" that there were issues?

 

[Ateron]

Nope, according to Leadbetter it's not possible on PS4 (lol)

"The speed increase to both major elements of the Xbox One processor is a further nail in the coffin of the theory that Microsoft had problems with its yield - the amount of useable chips that come off the production line.

Increasing speeds typically causes the yield to drop, and can cause problems with heat owing to the additional power draw. According to Anandtech's analysis of the Jaguar CPU hardware utilised by the next-gen consoles, a 25 per cent boost to CPU speed results in a 66 per cent increase in power consumption and 1.6GHz - the clock speed for PlayStation 4 - is thought to be the sweet spot in terms of performance per watt for the architecture. The fact that Microsoft has managed to extract that extra performance speaks to the efficiency of the console's cooling assembly and internal airflow. Similar performance increases with PlayStation 4 are unlikely owing to the much smaller casing."

Goddamn it. Now I want Sony to upclock the CPU just to prove this guy wrong. Again.
I don't give a damn if it doesn't bring any tangible improvements (probably wouldn't), I just want to see what kind of mental gymnastics he would do to downplay it. Jesus.

Spoiler

I'm joking.

Spoiler

Not really.

 

[CadetMahoney]

Hopefully we get some hard CPU numbers on PS4 soon. I've been saying for months that it's odd they haven't released that spec while being so open about everything else. I just want some hard numbers so we can make some real comparisons without guesswork.

Most ppl will be happy whatever the outcome cos the gpu can bruteforce better performance in games so face-offs will be wins for PS4 all the time.

 

[Majanew]

Goddamn it. Now I want Sony to upclock the CPU just to prove this guy wrong. Again.
I don't give a damn if it doesn't bring any tangible improvements (probably wouldn't), I just want to see what kind of mental gymnastics he would do to downplay it. Jesus.

Spoiler

I'm joking.

Spoiler

Not really.

Well, he did say unlikely. Not that it's impossible. PS4's casing is much smaller and the power supply is internal. There's a reason the 2GHz stock Jaguars were downclocked from the get-go in both consoles.

 

[artist]

Just a question, as I am illiterate in the nature of hardware:

How does a speed increase "prove" that there were issues?

Doesnt prove or disprove anything, despite Albert's repeated assertions.

 

[RoboPlato]

Most ppl will be happy whatever the outcome cos the gpu can bruteforce better performance in games so face-offs will be wins for PS4 all the time.

I know PS4 can do that, especially with it's GPU compute enhancements, but I'm just curious.

 

[dmg04]

Doesnt prove or disprove anything, despite Albert's repeated assertions.

It's just confusing, seeing the 'This is a nail in the coffin proving that MS is having yield issues"

I was under the impression that improvements were good things

 

[Snubbers]

Talking of SHAPE, a while back FMOD announced specific support for it,

Firelight Technologies today announced that its cutting edge audio technology has been optimized to support Xbox One, the all-in-one games and entertainment system from Microsoft

The high performance processor and dedicated Scalable Hardware Audio Processing Engine (SHAPE) is fully utilized by FMOD Studio to deliver next generation audio for the next generation of games. Authorized Xbox One developers and publishers can download an evaluation today.

“We’re thrilled to be working with Turn 10 on the Forza Motorsport franchise for Xbox One. They’re really pushing the of what’s possible in game audio.” said Raymond Biggs, lead developer for FMOD Studio. “They’re doing things in Forza Motorsport 5 that just weren’t possible with the last generation of consoles and audio tools. I know gamers are going to be blown away.”

I've read a few comments from bkillian on B3D (I think he either worked on SHAPE or was very close) and it's definitely quite a powerful processing block, with the ability to offload quite a bit of audio processing normally done on the CPU..

End of the day, we all know PS4 just has more raw HP in one way or another, so I certainly won't be arguing against PS4..

 

[Munki]

With every rumour that has come and gone in regards to the X1's being more powerful then the PS4, for some reason this one tweet always pops up in my head:

https://twitter.com/ryanpayton/status/311142850391834624

Makes me think he knew something we didn't way back then.

 

[badb0y]

With every rumour that has come and gone in regards to the X1's being more powerful then the PS4, for some reason this one tweet always pops up in my head:

https://twitter.com/ryanpayton/status/311142850391834624

Makes me think he knew something we didn't way back then.

What are you trying to say?

That tweet is still wrong, lol.

 

[Monty Mole]

Yeah, 150Mhz heat can burn an entire forest.

You'd have to multiply that 150Mhz heat by the 8x cores in the processor of course. Even just a couple of degrees can throw things off.

 

[LukasTaves]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-can-xbox-one-multi-platform-games-compete-with-ps4



Before the xb1 GPU upclock, he announced they would be very evenly matched. But now a <10% increase over assumed Specs and assumed OS reserves is Significant.

The man has lost all credibility.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-can-xbox-one-multi-platform-games-compete-with-ps4

It doesn't say anywhere that the difference is insignificant. It says that they tested and a 50% more flops resulted in less than 50% performance gain, and in some cases a little drop in resolution was enough to make performance equal.

What's so wrong about that?

 

[Majanew]

It's just confusing, seeing the 'This is a nail in the coffin proving that MS is having yield issues"

I was under the impression that improvements were good things

Leadbetter is saying it's the nail in the coffin to the rumor. As in the rumor is false.

 

[Curufinwe]

Evenly matched when it's a 40% difference in gpu power. Significant advantage when it's a 10% cpu difference.

That's embarrassing.

 

[Skeff]

It doesn't say anywhere that the difference is insignificant. It says that they tested and a 50% more flops resulted in less than 50% performance gain, and in some cases a little drop in resolution was enough to make performance equal.

What's so wrong about that?

You removed the section saying they were "very evenly matched" He called 50% on paper "very evenly matched" but thinks 10% on paper is "a significant advantage"

 

[Metalmurphy]

I used to think Digital Foundry were actually a legit tech source for the consoles. But I guess multiplatform comparisons will be fun.

I just hope Lens of Truth is still around to show the things that DF conveniently leaves out. Besides, there's only so much downplaying a person can take.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

I just don't understand what Digital Foundry's deal is these days.

 

[Doc Evils]

It's just confusing, seeing the 'This is a nail in the coffin proving that MS is having yield issues"

I was under the impression that improvements were good things

dmg04
#DEADWRONG

 

[lastflowers]

What are you trying to say?

That tweet is still wrong, lol.

I think he was just making fun of the people who feel some kind of happiness when they find out that their chosen console is more powerful.

Spoiler

Console warriors

 

[RulkezX]

I've never ever visited DF after reading articles poste on GAF this year I doubt I ever will. Does this Leadbetter guy have a background in engineering ? Or is he just an enthusiastic amateur ?

 

[qa_engineer]

I just don't understand what Digital Foundry's deal is these days.

Maybe they just prefer Microsoft's product and want to position said product in the best light possible.At the end of the day numbers don't lie.

 

[Flatline]

Nope, according to Leadbetter it's not possible on PS4 (lol)

"The speed increase to both major elements of the Xbox One processor is a further nail in the coffin of the theory that Microsoft had problems with its yield - the amount of useable chips that come off the production line.

Increasing speeds typically causes the yield to drop, and can cause problems with heat owing to the additional power draw. According to Anandtech's analysis of the Jaguar CPU hardware utilised by the next-gen consoles, a 25 per cent boost to CPU speed results in a 66 per cent increase in power consumption and 1.6GHz - the clock speed for PlayStation 4 - is thought to be the sweet spot in terms of performance per watt for the architecture. The fact that Microsoft has managed to extract that extra performance speaks to the efficiency of the console's cooling assembly and internal airflow. Similar performance increases with PlayStation 4 are unlikely owing to the much smaller casing."

Leadbetter strikes again. I didn't know he was a console engineer.

 

[iceatcs]

Oh yeah Lens of truth, one of the best website features but lack of full screenshot.
I always get annoyed with DF with way too few pictures and poor choice of video clips. It is a game comparison website for sake. That's why I gave up and moving on to PC gaming.


We want lot lot lot of material evidences, not people wording.

 

[Crisco]

I just don't understand what Digital Foundry's deal is these days.

I mean, it's pretty clear to me, and it has nothing to do with MS fanboyism. Their multi-platform game comparison articles probably generate more traffic for eurogamer.net than the entire rest of the site combined. They want to keep that up throughout this generation.If the prevailing narrative is "well, the PS4 is clearly 40--50% more powerful than the XBO and that will likely be reflected in all multiplatform games", the articles will get significantly less traffic.

 

[LukasTaves]

You removed the section saying they were "very evenly matched" He called 50% on paper "very evenly matched" but thinks 10% on paper is "a significant advantage"

50% on paper on a specific metric. You guys are again reducing entire processors into a single holistic metric figure.

He said that they could be evenly matched because he freaking tested the performance difference and noticed that even on Pc withing the same architectures the difference wasn't as pronounced as specs would suggest, and with the architectural differences on these consoles (like esram) it could be that the gap is even closer.

Look for his articles prior to the testing and you will see that he completely changed his tone after testing, prior to that he was saying that Ps4 would have a clear performance advantage.

As for the Cpu, it's not just 10% difference, he says the upclock plus Ms dedicated processors like DMEs and the audio blocks could make that difference significant.

 

[Munki]

What are you trying to say?

That tweet is still wrong, lol.

Not arguing that. But given the most recent rumour about how the X1 has a secret dGPU packed inside of it makes me think of that particular tweet.

 

[qa_engineer]

Not arguing that. But given the most recent rumour about how the X1 has a secret dGPU packed inside of it makes me think of that particular tweet.

No. Please leave that n4g, gamefaqs BS at the door.
Secret dgpu? Infinite power of the cloud?

 

[Curufinwe]

50% on paper on a specific metric. You guys are again reducing entire processors into a single holistic metric figure.

He said that they could be evenly matched because he freaking tested the performance difference and noticed that even on Pc withing the same architectures the difference wasn't as pronounced as specs would suggest, and with the architectural differences on these consoles (like esram) it could be that the gap is even closer.

Look for his articles prior to the testing and you will see that he completely changed his tone after testing, prior to that he was saying that Ps4 would have a clear performance advantage.

As for the Cpu, it's not just 10% difference, he says the upclock plus Ms dedicated processors like DMEs and the audio blocks could make that difference significant.

You mean the testing where he used a GPU for the Xbone an order of magnitude more powerful than the one in the console?

Claiming the DMEs will be difference makers is bunk as multiple people in this thread have already pointed out. The Xbone has them to try and address its limited bandwidth. DMEs and ESRAM are no substitute for 8 GB of GDDR5 RAM, no matter what Leadbetter would have you believe.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I think what we can take away from this is that at this point in the technological cycle, nobody really knows what a 150 Mhz increase actually means.

 

[LukasTaves]

Claiming the DMEs will be difference makers is bunk as multiple people in this thread have already pointed out.

Is it though? People here seem to disregard them as simple DMAs units... While all they do is to move data around the key principle from them is to get the data where you need it when you need it (and from the patents that could be directly into a cpu cache for instance).

I wouldn't be so quickly to disregard them at least without having more info about their design goals and some metrics that could show how much they can actually improve performance.

 

[Vizzeh]

I think what we can take away from this is that at this point in the technological cycle, nobody really knows what a 150 Mhz increase actually means.

11gflops apparently