dragonelite
Member
There are games that used an complete 360 core for audio alone.
150Mhz CPU boost on XBO, now in production
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There are games that used an complete 360 core for audio alone.
Good thing specs don't matter and small differences won't translate into any difference in games I guess - at least that's what the internet told me!
More realistically this is good news (nothing wrong with more power) and hopefully will be used in meaningful way for games to deliver better experience.
More realistically this is good news (nothing wrong with more power) and hopefully will be used in meaningful way for games to deliver better experience.
2 cores are suspected to also be reserved on ps4
MaLDo may have a point about processing advantage for xbox depending on how audio is used
I... beg your pardon?
Whiteshirt
Member
Its been happening fairly often recently. Like when Sony said "several" and somehow the geniuses over at Eurogamer decided the Sony dude said "seven".
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
A 150Mhz increase to each 8 core processor is meaningless? A 10% increase in CPU performance is meaningless?
How do define meaningless?
Chobel
Member
Where did get that, 1 core for audio? and Forza a sim racing game did take 2 cores from the3 cores not for physics, but for audio?
WTF is this?
Wickerbasket
Member
There's a lot of wishful thinking going on in this thread.
On another note, good for Microsoft. They should be trying to squeeze as much power out of the console as possible.
On another note, good for Microsoft. They should be trying to squeeze as much power out of the console as possible.
If it's Xbox it's meaningless, if it is PS4 it's megaton.
tensuke
Member
I was just responding to thekayle with that one. He was saying how a couple hundred GFLOPS don't make a difference, but the cpu boost will, which makes no sense (following the post pattern...). I think the boost is a good thing.
But, shape probably isn't going to free up an entire core. It *could*, though, depending on the application. Of course, with the PS4's extra CUs for GPGPU it could offload certain CPU tasks to the GPU while freeing up CPU space for itself, without using more GPU resources than Xbone in multiplats due to having more CUs in the first place. I honestly don't think this is going to be an issue for either console. I think both consoles have some pretty good hardware and there are lots of cool things you can do with both in terms of optimization. Real world multiplat-wise, there is not going to be a large difference, despite both consoles' respective advantages.
Edit: not. not a large difference.
Does a 10% clockrate increase really translate into anything like a 10% CPU performance increase?
Brad Grenz
Member
They haven't, but certain people like twist Cerny saying that one thing their audio hardware can do is decompress samples into him saying that is the only thing it can do.
It means Digital Foundry has no credibility. They tried to pass off the Move Engines as providing a CPU performance advantage when they know full well that's not their function. Even if they're referring to the decompression blocks we've known for a very long time the PS4 has comparable hardware for those functions.
yes well i read this from bkillian that worked as audio engineer at microsoft you can find this talk if u search on google i dont know if i can write the name of the forum here on gaf
Probably a copy+paste from the MS PR that Leadbetter didn't edit by mistake: notice the third decimal place in the % title!
Just wow.
You're all wasting your time arguing about something you have no control over. It's rather pointless. We have don't have the full picture of either console so a lot of assumptions are being made. Biased reporting from sites like polygon and eurogamer make it hard to have a sensible discussion. If developers don't complain about it, it doesn't matter.
yes in fact seem the old rumor about durango using 16 cores was coming from the fact that in devkit they tried to emulate the shape with another 8 jaguar cores....but they didnt reach
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
Yes. Of course it does. It's linear.
Brad Grenz
Member
They don't have to emulate it. They can provide "good enough" audio at a small fraction of the performance cost, just like the 360 did all this generation, and no one will care.
the numbers may say 10% but you and I won't notice that difference. In that sense, yes, 150 Mhz is meaningless.
no, absolutely not.
DeFiBkIlLeR
Banned
In a sense, the PS4 is bottlenecked by the Jaguar CPU, as is the Xbox, even after the speed bump.
If you were to put an equivalent CPU and GPU into a new build PC, the vast majority would ask why are you putting such a weak CPU in.
..and there is no getting around the fact that both these consoles have a pretty terrible CPU by modern standards in terms of overall performance.
Sony and MS simply took an approach of 'good enough'.
..it's just that the huge dev teams in console gaming land, will be able to put enough resource's into coming up with clever ways of using their GPU's to get around it.
Chobel
Member
You know that's bullshit right, Forza will use most of , if not all, CPU cores for simulation.
well until someone comes out and says they have audio processors doing the same function as xbone on special hardware besides decompression I guess that's what we have to assume as the simplest explanation
The conclusion that I can draw from each next gen revelation is summarized in a few lines
- MS paywall for multiplayer -> no way
- SONY paywall for multiplayer -> full party
- PS4 hardware advantage -> Better games for sony
- Xbone hardware advantage -> not decisive, + RROD possibilities
- PS4 hardware Customization -> Cerny god and better performance for PS4
- Customization in Xbone hardware -> Complications for developers
- Exclusive PS4 confirmed at 30 fps -> 30 fps is enough
- Exclusive Xbone confirmed at 30 fps -> Weak hardware
- Multiplatform with better framerate in PS4 -> Will be the trend throughout generation
- Multiplatform with better framerate in Xbone -> Lazy devs or microsoft moneyhatting
and so on...
Emulation of in development silicon and a performance equivalence aren't the same thing.
I believe Microsoft themselves came out and said that the audio hardware gives them about one Jaguar core worth of audio processing?
He's not saying the GPU will be limited by the CPU in that sense. He means that with a more powerful GPU, the bound in a game is likely to shift over to the CPU, and that will become your limit on max framerate.
I was going to make a similar comment earlier, in response to Timedog's comments. With the GPU in Xbone, a CPU upclock may have limited impact on framerates because it's fairly likely a lot of software will be GPU bound anyway, whereas on something like PS4 such an upclock might manifest more often.
9% ahead ?
I think it's a strange statement for someone as informed as Leadbetter should be. The DMEs aren't an advantage to Xbox vs PS4 when they're doing things that simply don't need to be done on PS4 (i.e. trucking data between two pools of memory). They also do decompression duty, but PS4 also has dedicated data decompression hardware.
Leadbetter keeps leaking his fanboyism lately.
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
By that argument. The increase in GPU performance of PS4 is also meaningless.
Please explain why a increase in clock rate doesn't translate into a increase in CPU performance. I'm all ears.
JonathanPower
Member
Well, BF4 shows that the CPU is not the problem. If the game runs at 60fps but they are having troubles optimizing the game to reach 1080p, then the game is not CPU limited.
tensuke
Member
I don't mean to say audio processing is entirely negligible. I know depending on the task, it can require quite a bit on its own. What I mean is both consoles have chips for this--and currently the Xbone's SHAPE looks to be better than the PS4's dsp, but the PS4 has extra GPU grunt that can perform certain audio tasks. That is, neither console is going to struggle or lag behind because of audio processing. It's not entirely trivial, but it's not a huge problem in most games. Both consoles using Blu-ray and HDDs, 8GB of RAM, custom chips, and other extra things, it's not as much of an issue this generation.
Guilty until proven innocent
there actually is a quote from bkilian where he states that forza 4 uses at least a two cpu threads iirc for audio alone
:lol
you have read some if the xbone threads around here when people try to explain what the hardware might be capable of right?
pretty standard assumption
Or we can assume we don't have a complete picture.
Great news for the X1. Puts the rumours of yield issues to rest I hope, certainly puts a little doubt on Cboats leaks, who knows *shrug* he's been great for many other things.. Apparently MS passed FCC certification earlier than PS4, so why the hell is there no release date yet?
So we've got 853 on the GPU clock, and 1.75 on the CPU clock. Not bad at all I think, especially considering the additional processing from dedicated audio hardware.
Now where the hell is the release date MS?
So we've got 853 on the GPU clock, and 1.75 on the CPU clock. Not bad at all I think, especially considering the additional processing from dedicated audio hardware.
Now where the hell is the release date MS?
You can only say that after seeing how distant view and distant LOD is in BF4 console version.
CPU eaters are shadows/cpu physics/distant view/LOD setting.
dr. apocalipsis
Banned
That is only because 360 have no fixed audio deco offloads and Xenos IPC is abysmal. Now both PS4 and Xbone have dedicated deco chips and better cores (even when IPC is still abysmal for today standards).
Sony supported 7.1 uncompressed blu-ray audio just fine on PS3, I don't know why anyone is worried about audio being a problem for Sony on the PS4. There is definitely built in hardware for that kind of thing with "additional" processing for audio available using the GPU if they devs need it. Its laughable people are trying to make the MS SHAPE chip some sort of secret sauce.
No Bkilian stated that if you wanted to emulate the shape block working at 100% it probably couldn't be done on the CPU. However he pointed out that many developers wouldn't be utilising the shape anywhere near 100% and when eventually they start using it well, GPU options on the PS4 would suffice.
dragonelite
Member
I think people will be expecting more then just decode an mp3 or other sort of audio file and play it back.
DeFiBkIlLeR
Banned
I'd need to know what extra stuff the new frostbite engine has off loaded to the GPU to understand what the problem is, traditionally, battlefield games have been very CPU bound, Bad Company 2 (using frostbite 2) really required a Quad Core CPU for decent performance.
Battlefield 3 (using frostbite 3) shifted a lot of the burden over to the GPU, to such an extent that even high clocked dual cores would run it, so long as it had a powerful enough GPU.
..so who knows what extra stuff frostbite is now being asked to do for BF4...maybe they've pushed GPU requirements too far off the CPU?
Chobel
Member
There you go: threads =/= cores
Thread can take from ε>0% up to 100% from core processing power, and I doubt it will take even 20% for audio in Forza.
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
The current belief is that PS4 audio processing requires more CPU usage then the Xbox One solution. At this point. Any performance advantage Xbox One has is a good thing.
JonathanPower
Member
Yes, but the audio processor can only process audio, while having all 8 cores available would mean having more CPU power for any kind of task. As I said, it was rumored that PS4 reserves less than one core for the OS.
I find it very doubtful that DICE is doing anything GPGPU related which would improve performance. Typical launch game optimization woes.
Is your period key sticky or something?
yes I know two threads to a core so one of the three available cores was being used. He also said that when used for audio the threads could not be leveraged for other purposes
there actually is a quote from bkilian where he states that forza 4 uses at least a two cpu threads iirc for audio alone
:lol
you have read some if the xbone threads around here when people try to explain what the hardware might be capable of right?
pretty standard assumption
forza 5 is going ahead and have already procedural audio..something that ps4 cant do without using cores or cu's
I'm relating what Microsoft said recently. Not 'bkillian'.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=662197
"- SHAPE offloads >1 CPU core "
"15.4Gflops"
Maybe there are some corner cases where that poster is correct, but MS is painting a bit of a different picture.
However assuming shape offers a lot of extra audio performance, I do not think you're going to see PS4 devs trying to catch up to that by throwing CPU or GPU at the problem. Audio isn't that big of a priority for most devs. I think they'd pare back on quality before eating into 'more important' budgets, so the discussion about how much it would take to do similar processing to higher end shape usage may be a bit moot.
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