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[Sho_Nuff82]

I could talk about Kidd if you prefer.

Kidd spent much of his career leading fast breaks after timely defensive rebounds though.

And Rondo's rebound swatting on opposing teams' bigs has saved the Celtics on a few nights.

Edit: also, if Rondo's man is consistently guarding him at the three point line, youredoingitwrong.jpg

 

[Jeff-DSA]

PG's going for defensive rebounds isn't a big issue to me, if they get it there is no need for an outlet, and if they don't they can still cover their man.

It's not as bad, but I still don't like when they interfere with the bigs doing their thing or the big gets the board and looks to the side and nobody is there for a few seconds.

 

[Triple U]

Kidd spent much of his career leading fast breaks after timely defensive rebounds though.

And Rondo's rebound swatting on opposing teams' bigs has saved the Celtics on a few nights.

Yeah the finals comes to mind when he jumped over Gasol and Odom.

 

[commish]

Bigs going for rebounds is expected, their position calls for them to be in the paint. Guards crashing the boards is a philosophy that results in more offensive possessions but starts transition offense for the opposing team. It's similar to gambling for steals.

I'd love to see a statistical analysis of this. I note, though, that most of the rebounds a PG gets are defensive rebounds.

 

[diehard]

Edit: also, if Rondo's man is consistently guarding him at the three point line, youredoingitwrong.jpg

Either Rondo is in the lane when the shot goes up and is clogging it for the 4/5's or he crashes the board after the shot goes up, if he doesn't get it the outlet goes to the point guard and he has a fast break. Harris got about 8 points off this alone the last time they played.

I'm not even trying to single out Rondo at all , strangely enough.

If you are relying on your PG to get rebounds, you are either the 80's Lakers, or you are in trouble.

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTtbRnx1RMY&feature=related

 

[reilo]

Either Rondo is in the lane when the shot goes up and is clogging it for the 4/5's or he crashes the board after the shot goes up, if he doesn't get it the outlet goes to the point guard and he has a fast break. Harris got about 8 points off this alone the last time they played.

I'm not even trying to single out Rondo at all , strangely enough.

If you are relying on your PG to get rebounds, you are either the 80's Lakers, or you are in trouble.

Which is what made Kidd's prime rebounding so amazing. The best rebounding PGs in the league (Rondo, Westbrook, Andre) all average about the same number of OREB: 1.3.

Meanwhile, that's about the same number Kidd averaged during his prime and still managed to get to 7-8RPG. Amazing.

 

[ToyMachine228]

Funny as it seems, Bosh is probably the one guy who sacrificed the most and Wade to a certain extent.

Bosh has sacrificed a few touches a game, but he himself is the one who has been less aggressive, and the one who has gained the most fame and fortune out of this. In Toronto, he was the big fish in the small pond. A very talented one. Since signing with Miami, as I said a few pages ago, he's been all over talk shows, doing tons of PR stuff. More so than Wade and LeBron.

And while there may or may not be a leadership problem that the Heat have, they didn't lose last night's game because of Bosh's poor performance, or because of the lack of bench production as of late. They lost it because they haven't been playing defense. When they were on the hot streak, Miami's defense was one of the best in the league. Was locking teams down. The Blazers scored 57 points in the first half. That's why the Heat lost. Had they played tighter D, they could have won that game, despite Bosh and the bench being MIA. No pun intended.

Also, I saw someone shit on Mike Miller a few pages back. Why? The guy has obviously not been what the Heat had hoped this season but he's had a roller coaster season. He was out almost the entire first half of the year first of all, and mentioned his thumb would be a problem all year. He wasn't "there" while the Heat were learning to play together. He got a concussion and got beat around for two games after getting the concussion. He was in trade talks. He exploded for 35 or so points one game. He's been all over the place. As a Heat fan, I want more production out of him definitely, and I believe he's capable of it. I don't get the disrespect toward him.

A lot of people forget Udonis Haslem has been missing all year too. Again, not a cure all for the Heat's problems but he is co-captain and meant to be one of the team's leaders. And can put up close to a double double every night.

To say the Heat's season has been a roller coaster would be an understatement. But factor in the Heat's two primary offensive weapons outside of the Big 3 basically not being here for the team's season...It's even more so.

 

[reilo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTtbRnx1RMY&feature=related

I don't have a problem with that rebound because he quickly realized it was a very long rebound and it was going to bounce near the free-throw line about two-feet in front of him. I think the bigger issue is when PGs try to grab the rebounds in the paint near the rim.

 

[thekad]

It's possible to play good transition D and have a PG that crashes the boards.

 

[reilo]

Bosh has sacrificed a few touches a game, but he himself is the one who has been less aggressive, and the one who has gained the most fame and fortune out of this. In Toronto, he was the big fish in the small pond. A very talented one. Since signing with Miami, as I said a few pages ago, he's been all over talk shows, doing tons of PR stuff. More so than Wade and LeBron.

And while there may or may not be a leadership problem that the Heat have, they didn't lose last night's game because of Bosh's poor performance, or because of the lack of bench production as of late. They lost it because they haven't been playing defense. When they were on the hot streak, Miami's defense was one of the best in the league. Was locking teams down. The Blazers scored 57 points in the first half. That's why the Heat lost. Had they played tighter D, they could have won that game, despite Bosh and the bench being MIA. No pun intended.

Also, I saw someone shit on Mike Miller a few pages back. Why? The guy has obviously not been what the Heat had hoped this season but he's had a roller coaster season. He was out almost the entire first half of the year first of all, and mentioned his thumb would be a problem all year. He wasn't "there" while the Heat were learning to play together. He got a concussion and got beat around for two games after getting the concussion. He was in trade talks. He exploded for 35 or so points one game. He's been all over the place. As a Heat fan, I want more production out of him definitely, and I believe he's capable of it. I don't get the disrespect toward him.

A lot of people forget Udonis Haslem has been missing all year too. Again, not a cure all for the Heat's problems but he is co-captain and meant to be one of the team's leaders. And can put up close to a double double every night.

To say the Heat's season has been a roller coaster would be an understatement. But factor in the Heat's two primary offensive weapons outside of the Big 3 basically not being here for the team's season...It's even more so.

You're really not putting this shit on Miami's injury woes, are you? Get the fuck out.

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

I don't have a problem with that rebound because he quickly realized it was a very long rebound and it was going to bounce near the free-throw line about two-feet in front of him. I think the bigger issue is when PGs try to grab the rebounds in the paint near the rim.

Oh, he has done that as well.

I guess I never thought of the negative implications and just appreciated the hustle.

He usually puts those back in because either no one seems to care that a smaller guy is around the basket or he just outmuscles and efforts guys because that's who he is.

He doesn't do that too much at all though but when he does, it usually is 2 points.

 

[diehard]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTtbRnx1RMY&feature=related

if he fumbles that , Hawks have a 2 on 1 fastbreak after Johnson gets the rebound. It was a "gamble" that paid off.

Westbrook is a career 1.9 Oreb to 3.0 Dreb, Either he or that system gambles a lot.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Perry Jones suspended for the last games of his college career, he is so worthless. Not able to watch the Colorado game, but future Jazz SG Alec Burks has 9 rebounds and 5 turnovers in the first half of what may be his last major college basketball game...


edit: The Times article today about how Perry Jones might be too good of a person to become a great player is hilarious now. Though it was when I first read it as well after watching that guy's body language and interviews. So worthless, shouldn't go top 8 under any circumstance.

 

[reilo]

Perry Jones suspended for the last games of his college career, he is so worthless. Not able to watch the Colorado game, but future Jazz SG Alec Burks has 9 rebounds and 5 turnovers in the first half of what may be his last major college basketball game...

And earlier today Chad Ford tweeted this...

@chadfordinsider Nice feature in the NYTimes on Perry Jones, the No. 2 prospect on our Big Board right now. http://t.co/JNyrAFI about 3

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

if he fumbles that , Hawks have a 2 on 1 fastbreak after Johnson gets the rebound. It was a "gamble" that paid off.

It's Rose.

He probably saw it the whole way and he's fast.

 

[ToyMachine228]

You're really not putting this shit on Miami's injury woes, are you? Get the fuck out.

No, I am saying the injuries add to the roller coaster of a season. Not that they directly tie into the last 5 games.

But if you'd prefer, I can just edit my post to say the Heat are turrible, what a fucking joke if that will appease you.

 

[diehard]

Perry Jones suspended for the last games of his college career, he is so worthless. Not able to watch the Colorado game, but future Jazz SG Alec Burks has 9 rebounds and 5 turnovers in the first half of what may be his last major college basketball game...

If you think that guy is better than Jimmer i pity you.

 

[Derwind]

they didn't lose last night's game because of Bosh's poor performance, or because of the lack of bench production as of late. They lost it because they haven't been playing defense.

7 points, 4 rebounds, 1 steal, 2 TO at 27% shooting with 1 trip to the line in 40+ mins...

You got to admit thats pretty bad...

Forget big three, its not even worthy of being in a big 6....thats like scrub bench production there...at least Juan Howard knows how to play like a goon...send the guard in a choke hold or something, don't let them drive to the basket...:/

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

The Heat are such an inconsistent defensive team in my mind.

 

[Omiee]

i was busy at work again, what did i miss today in this thread and in the news?

 

[reilo]

No, I am saying the injuries add to the roller coaster of a season. Not that they directly tie into the last 5 games.

But if you'd prefer, I can just edit my post to say the Heat are turrible, what a fucking joke if that will appease you.

I'm glad at least one fan bought into the Miami Heat culture. Making excuses is right up the team's alley, chump.

If you think Mike Miller and Udonis Haslem are the difference between being good and great when you have Lebron, Wade, and Bosh on a team, then there is something completely and fundamentally wrong with the team that even those two cannot salvage.

 

[ToyMachine228]

7 points, 4 rebounds, 1 steal, 2 TO at 27% shooting with 1 trip to the line in 40+ mins...

It is bad. And Bosh has had plenty of struggles this season. But I don't think it's fair to say the Heat's troubles are all on Bosh. I'm not even really a Bosh fan. I am a Heat fan, but I'm not ga-ga over Bosh. What I'm saying is the Heat need to get back to the lockout defense they've shown they can play. Then some of their offensive woes (That they do need to find answers for, granted) will be relieved.

EDIT: In response to reilo, it's not an excuse. But don't tell me losing your best two bench players for most of the season doesn't effect ANY team. It's not an excuse to lose 5 games in a row, it's not an excuse to be unable to close games, it's not an excuse to blow 20 point leads. I'm just putting it out there as part of discussion. I still think the Heat are far from cooked or finished. I'm not here for name calling or finger pointing. Just for discussion.

 

[Derwind]

It is bad. And Bosh has had plenty of struggles this season. But I don't think it's fair to say the Heat's troubles are all on Bosh. I'm not even really a Bosh fan. I am a Heat fan, but I'm not ga-ga over Bosh. What I'm saying is the Heat need to get back to the lockout defense they've shown they can play. Then some of their offensive woes (That they do need to find answers for, granted) will be relieved.

Thats if the team will buy into the Spolestra gameplan. The defense has been sporadic since no one knows what position to get into and you have your big three fighting over defensive boards so they can regulate the offense.

Your bench may be pretty bad but they have the ability to stay on there man and get into position to take charges.

The problem here is entirely on the fact that the Heat lack leadership and buying into a coherent system. :/

 

[ToxicAdam]

Are the Heat bad defensively? Because when I watch their games it never seems like they can manufacture stops when they need them, but I don't really see teams scoring at will on them (except for a few notable games).

 

[Black Mamba]

I'd love to see a statistical analysis of this. I note, though, that most of the rebounds a PG gets are defensive rebounds.

For defensive rebounds:

-- PG: every extra DREB% reduces his teammates' DREB% by 0.79.
-- SG: every extra DREB% reduces his teammates' DREB% by 0.92.
-- SF: every extra DREB% reduces his teammates' DREB% by 0.52.
-- PF: every extra DREB% reduces his teammates' DREB% by 0.94.
--- C: every extra DREB% reduces his teammates' DREB% by 0.77.

It looks like the "stealing" rate is about 0.8, on average, for defensive rebounds.

Having said that, however, I should say that the standard errors of these estimates are pretty high. Here are those estimates again, along with the SE:

PG -- 0.79 +/- 0.35
SG -- 0.92 +/- 0.21
SF -- 0.52 +/- 0.20
PF -- 0.94 +/- 0.13
C --- 0.77 +/- 0.14

Here's the same chart for offensive rebounds. This time, I'll put the SEs in brackets at the end.

-- PG: every extra OREB% reduces his teammates' OREB% by 1.18 (+/- 0.55).
-- SG: every extra OREB% reduces his teammates' OREB% by 1.06 (+/- 0.46).
-- SF: every extra OREB% reduces his teammates' OREB% by 0.15 (+/- 0.40).
-- PF: every extra OREB% reduces his teammates' OREB% by 0.13 (+/- 0.16).
--- C: every extra OREB% reduces his teammates' OREB% by 0.38 (+/- 0.27).

A lot different. As expert basketball sabermetricians have said, diminishing returns are at a much lower level for offensive rebounds. The PG and SG numbers are probably enhanced by random errors -- it would be hard to come up with an explanation of why a shooting guard's OREB would cost his teammates *more than one* OREB in exchange. [UPDATE: not true! See comments. I now agree a coefficient more extreme than -1 could actually be correct.]

Even though you could argue that the bottom three estimates are not statistically significantly different from zero (they're all less than 2 SDs), I think our best guess is still the point estimates we have here (since there's no prior reason to believe the diminishing returns rate should be zero).

Overall, other analysts have suggested an average of somewhere between .2 and .3, which seems very reasonable looking at the above table.

Finally, overall rebounds:

-- PG: every extra REB% reduces his teammates' REB% by 0.95 (+/- 0.15).
-- SG: every extra REB% reduces his teammates' REB% by 1.05 (+/- 0.21).
-- SF: every extra REB% reduces his teammates' REB% by 0.99 (+/- 0.26).
-- PF: every extra REB% reduces his teammates' REB% by 0.75 (+/- 0.12).
--- C: every extra REB% reduces his teammates' REB% by 0.71 (+/- 0.14).

All five of these seem to be about the average of OREB and DREB, except for the SF. Not sure why the SF is so different.

------

So, I think this roughly confirms what certain basketball analysts are doing: assigning only about 0.3 of a defensive rebound to the player, and about 0.7 of an offensive rebound.

Translation: PG and SG rebounds mostly steal rebounds from their own players. Most defensive rebounds, even by a big man, would be grabbed by a teammate. Offensive rebounds by bigs/forwards are almost always legit and would be a rebound for the other team, otherwise.

Not a perfect analysis, but something to ponder.

I think the main reason for the PG/SG numbers are that especially for OReb they are mostly long bounces that just come to them.


This is why someone like David Lee can come to GSW and not really change their rebounding habits much. Or why Bargs can be that terrible but the team scrape by.

Also why Rondo can rebound like mad, but the team be average at rebounding.

 

[reilo]

EDIT: In response to reilo, it's not an excuse. But don't tell me losing your best two bench players for most of the season doesn't effect ANY team. It's not an excuse to lose 5 games in a row, it's not an excuse to be unable to close games, it's not an excuse to blow 20 point leads. I'm just putting it out there as part of discussion. I still think the Heat are far from cooked or finished. I'm not here for name calling or finger pointing. Just for discussion.

Have you paid attention to Mike Miller the past two years? The guy has been over the hill since he was first traded from Memphis. He sucked on the Timberwolves and he sucked on the Wizards. The guy is 30 years old now and he should not be dealing with consistency issues. Rodeo pointed out two seasons ago that the guy was afraid to shoot the basketball -- a shooter afraid to shoot. If you think injuries are holding him back, then I don't know what to tell you.

And Haslem? Yeah, he's a big bench piece for them, but their issues are more than just defensive, especially in the clutch. Hell, even in the 13 games he played, the Heat went 8-5. Right now, you'd kill for an 8-5 stretch.

The team has issues that a healthy Haslem cannot repair. Mike Miller just flat out sucks. Don't hang your hat on him.

 

[Rodeo Clown]

Pick'em results for 3/2:

K.Jack	                9	1	0.900

kevo_huevo	        9	1	0.900

Nabs	                9	1	0.900

obijkenobi	        9	1	0.900

ImperialConquest	8	2	0.800

MorisUkunRasik  	8	2	0.800

The Crimson Blur	8	2	0.800

The Frankman	        8	2	0.800

The M.O.B	        8	2	0.800

YuriLowell	        8	2	0.800

Bishman	                7	3	0.700

DCX	                7	3	0.700

dIEHARD	                7	3	0.700

dream	                7	3	0.700

giri	                7	3	0.700

Jeff-DSA	        7	3	0.700

pilonv1	                7	3	0.700

Red Blaster	        7	3	0.700

Sho_Nuff82	        7	3	0.700

Spooks	                7	3	0.700

The Chosen One         	7	3	0.700

Black Mamba	        6	4	0.600

KingGondo	        6	4	0.600

Pkaz01	                6	4	0.600

Rodeo Clown	        6	4	0.600

SamuraiX-	        6	4	0.600

Squall ASF	        6	4	0.600

thekad	                6	4	0.600

Mothman91	        5	5	0.500

jobber	                4	6	0.400

Pick'em Schedule for 3/9:

Utah @ Toronto
Chicago @ Charlotte
Oklahoma City @ Philadelphia
Golden State @ New Jersey
LA Clippers @ Boston
Cleveland @ Milwaukee
New York @ Memphis
Dallas @ New Orleans
Indiana @ Minnesota
Detroit @ San Antonio
Orlando @ Sacramento


-----

Utah @ Toronto
Chicago @ Charlotte
Oklahoma City @ Philadelphia
Golden State @ New Jersey
LA Clippers @ Boston
Cleveland @ Milwaukee
New York @ Memphis
Dallas @ New Orleans
Indiana @ Minnesota
Detroit @ San Antonio
Orlando @ Sacramento

 

[Derwind]

Are the Heat bad defensively? Because when I watch their games it never seems like they can manufacture stops when they need them, but I don't really see teams scoring at will on them (except for a few notable games).

Well aside from Dwayne or Lebron, I can't find anyone on the team notable for exerting any defensive pressure and forcing the other team into T.O.

:shrug

Utah @ Toronto
Chicago @ Charlotte
Oklahoma City @ Philadelphia
Golden State @ New Jersey
LA Clippers @ Boston
Cleveland @ Milwaukee
New York @ Memphis
Dallas @ New Orleans
Indiana @ Minnesota
Detroit @ San Antonio
Orlando @ Sacramento

 

[Jeff-DSA]

Utah @ Toronto (believe)
Chicago @ Charlotte
Oklahoma City @ Philadelphia
Golden State @ New Jersey
LA Clippers @ Boston
Cleveland @ Milwaukee
New York @ Memphis
Dallas @ New Orleans
Indiana @ Minnesota
Detroit @ San Antonio
Orlando @ Sacramento

Way too many road teams there...I'm going to go down hard this week.

 

[Black Mamba]

Utah @ Toronto
Chicago @ Charlotte
Oklahoma City @ Philadelphia
Golden State @ New Jersey
LA Clippers @ Boston
Cleveland @ Milwaukee
New York @ Memphis
Dallas @ New Orleans
Indiana @ Minnesota
Detroit @ San Antonio
Orlando @ Sacramento

No CP3 makes me pick Dallas, though I want them to lose. Philly on fire right now, won't get off the bandwagon.

I want to pick NYK, but the size of Memphis will be too much.

 

[CherryWoodFuton]

Utah @ Toronto
Chicago @ Charlotte
Oklahoma City @ Philadelphia
Golden State @ New Jersey
LA Clippers @ Boston
Cleveland @ Milwaukee
New York @ Memphis
Dallas @ New Orleans
Indiana @ Minnesota
Detroit @ San Antonio
Orlando @ Sacramento

 

[xnipx]

Have the heat actually played lockdown defense against any of the good competition they played this year??


I know the top teams have had their best defensive games when playing the heat but I can't recall the heat actually holding any good teams to poor offensive nights

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

Have the heat actually played lockdown defense against any of the good competition they played this year??

I don't know if they are considered good but the Lakers???

 

[MorisUkunRasik]

Pick 'ems!

Utah @ Toronto
Chicago @ Charlotte
Oklahoma City @ Philadelphia
Golden State @ New Jersey
LA Clippers @ Boston
Cleveland @ Milwaukee
New York @ Memphis
Dallas @ New Orleans
Indiana @ Minnesota
Detroit @ San Antonio
Orlando @ Sacramento

 

[giri]

Utah @ Toronto
Chicago @ Charlotte
Oklahoma City @ Philadelphia
Golden State @ New Jersey
LA Clippers @ Boston
Cleveland @ Milwaukee
New York @ Memphis
Dallas @ New Orleans
Indiana @ Minnesota
Detroit @ San Antonio
Orlando @ Sacramento

 

[DCX]

Utah @ Toronto
Chicago @ Charlotte
Oklahoma City @ Philadelphia
Golden State @ New Jersey
LA Clippers @ Boston
Cleveland @ Milwaukee
New York @ Memphis
Dallas @ New Orleans
Indiana @ Minnesota
Detroit @ San Antonio
Orlando @ Sacramento

DCX

 

[Jamesfrom818]

Max Kellerman is interviewing a 12 year old girl about crying.

 

[MorisUkunRasik]

Max Kellerman is interviewing a 12 year old girl about crying.

I wasn't sure how I felt about him coming to LA radio, but I heard him talking about Raekwon earlier today, so he gets a pass.

 

[AirBrian]

Utah @ Toronto
Chicago @ Charlotte
Oklahoma City @ Philadelphia
Golden State @ New Jersey
LA Clippers @ Boston
Cleveland @ Milwaukee
New York @ Memphis
Dallas @ New Orleans
Indiana @ Minnesota
Detroit @ San Antonio
Orlando @ Sacramento

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Max Kellerman is interviewing a 12 year old girl about crying.

So he is interviewing one of the Heat players?

 

[KingGondo]

Utah @ Toronto
Chicago @ Charlotte
Oklahoma City @ Philadelphia
Golden State @ New Jersey
LA Clippers @ Boston
Cleveland @ Milwaukee
New York @ Memphis
Dallas @ New Orleans
Indiana @ Minnesota
Detroit @ San Antonio
Orlando @ Sacramento

 

[seattle6418]

Utah @ Toronto
Chicago @ Charlotte
Oklahoma City @ Philadelphia
Golden State @ New Jersey
LA Clippers @ Boston
Cleveland @ Milwaukee
New York @ Memphis
Dallas @ New Orleans
Indiana @ Minnesota
Detroit @ San Antonio
Orlando @ Sacramento

 

[SUPREME1]

Utah @ Toronto
Chicago @ Charlotte
Oklahoma City @ Philadelphia
Golden State @ New Jersey
LA Clippers @ Boston
Cleveland @ Milwaukee
New York @ Memphis
Dallas @ New Orleans
Indiana @ Minnesota
Detroit @ San Antonio
Orlando @ Sacramento

 

[Omiee]

i dont get it why is bosh always alone in the conferences but wade and lebron always together?

 

[Black Mamba]

So he is interviewing chris bosh?

fixed

 

[Omiee]

Utah @ Toronto
Chicago @ Charlotte
Oklahoma City @ Philadelphia
Golden State @ New Jersey
LA Clippers @ Boston
Cleveland @ Milwaukee
New York @ Memphis
Dallas @ New Orleans
Indiana @ Minnesota
Detroit @ San Antonio
Orlando @ Sacramento

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

i dont get it why is bosh always alone in the conferences but wade and lebron always together?

Bosh is like the kid who doesn't fit in.

Sometimes I feel sorry for him but then I think of the time he criticized Omer Asik for going for a loose ball on the floor(Bosh hurt his ankle but later "retracted" what he said) and then that flop against Boozer was too much.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Utah @ Toronto
Chicago @ Charlotte
Oklahoma City @ Philadelphia
Golden State @ New Jersey
LA Clippers @ Boston
Cleveland @ Milwaukee
New York @ Memphis
Dallas @ New Orleans
Indiana @ Minnesota
Detroit @ San Antonio
Orlando @ Sacramento

Knicks over Grizz is my upset special. Iggy shuts down Durant tonight as well.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Alec Burks with 22-14, Colorado still trailing, got to win this one since I forgot to record it.