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[Sanjuro]

Perkins being hurt is irrelevant to the question about Green. If you trade Perk because he is hurt, then it is because he is hurt. You said because you can't sign him.

Perkins will be back.

If your argument is the combination of Perkins being hurt (and you doubt his health going forward) and can't sign him, then okay.

Then I ask, why GREEN who you cannot sign and is a poor defender and not SOMEONE ELSE.

I don't have issues with trading Perk on its face. My issue is with whom they got in return.

As I said before, I believe what you lose in interior defense by losing Perk is greater than what you gain from Green unless Shaq plays a lot of minutes. And I wouldn't bet on that.

I get what Boston's intention was. They believe Green can fill the role Posey filled in '08. But Posey was a far better defender, was a smart player and didn't screw up the offense, and was clutch. Green has yet to indicate he is any of these things.

And they no longer fear Orlando (justified) and believe this will help them against Miami (possible) and they doubt the LAL coming out of the West and think it will help vs. the Spurs.

I get it. I just think they overrate Green (as you do) and underrate how much they'll miss that interior D in the playoffs. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Shaq will prove everyone wrong. But don't accuse me of not being able to follow along a discussion when you're the one clearly moving goalposts as we converse.






I am no alt account. Seriously, that would be pathetic. This is my first time posting on NeoGaf after following this thread for nearly a year now.

I don't love Green. I'm not overrating him. The Celtics shipped out their coffins early this year. That is the entire purpose of the trades.

Perkins coming off a severe injury, now hurt his other leg from putting the stress onto it, not resigning with us after the season. NO THANK YOU. We got substance and most importantly HEALTHY bodies for him.

We have Green who is a solid, if unspectacular player. Kristic who will make KG more selfish which is something he needs to be going down the stretch.

We have Shaq, for his role I'm sure we can rely on when needed. We have Troy coming. J'O I have little to no faith in, if he is healthy in time for the playoffs? Sure. Sounds good.

Green will be gone after the season unless he proves something. We will have cap space. Business as usual.

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

This James Johnson guy can stay. Okafor just got snuffed.

 

[ecnal]

Put me down as a Laker fan that approves of the Perk trade. All the arguments against it sound like the same arguments my fellow Laker fans make for keeping Bynum. "if" he gets healthy the Celtics will miss his defense. "if" he's healthy he can guard Dwight. Sorry I don't like dealing in "Ifs" when it comes to big men and knee injuries. Perk was coming off a pretty severe knee injury, was already injured again, was clearly rusty and not in prime game shape, and his defense was overrated by playing in a great system, for a great defensive coach, and alongside an all time great defensive PF. It was great foresight by Ainge. 100% of Jeff Green is better than 60 or 70% of Perkins.

i agree for the most part. however, the argument to keep bynum is/was significantly stronger than the argument is/was to keep perkins.

perk is impending FA, he has essentially already reached his potential, and the c's are playing well without him.

if we were in a similar situation with bynum -- specifically the impending FA -- i would hope mitch would have done the same thing boston did w/ perk. except hopefully we could have gotten someone better than jeff green.

even with that all said though, lakers should still be seriously and actively considering trades that involve bynum -- his injury risk is just far too great at this point.

 

[Sharp]

Sanjuro's entire argument is predicated on Perkins' being out for most of the rest of the season, including the playoffs, and on the Celtics' championship window not being, pretty much, this year. Since I seriously doubt Boston is going to be the best team in the East next year, I don't understand why they aren't going all-in rather than trying to build for some nebulous future that apparently involves thoroughly mediocre bigs like Green and Kristic.

And re: the Bynum argument, no. The "we should keep Bynum" arguments regarding a trade for Melo were stupid because it was fucking Melo. If it was "we shouldn't trade Bynum for Green and Kristic" it would be more of a "well, duh" moment.

 

[Fox318]

I can see why Dwight Howard was pissed at his team.

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

Trade Bargnani for a center.

 

[giri]

Perkins being hurt is irrelevant to the question about Green. If you trade Perk because he is hurt, then it is because he is hurt. You said because you can't sign him.

Perkins will be back.

If your argument is the combination of Perkins being hurt (and you doubt his health going forward) and can't sign him, then okay.

Then I ask, why GREEN who you cannot sign and is a poor defender and not SOMEONE ELSE.

I don't have issues with trading Perk on its face. My issue is with whom they got in return.

As I said before, I believe what you lose in interior defense by losing Perk is greater than what you gain from Green unless Shaq plays a lot of minutes. And I wouldn't bet on that.

I get what Boston's intention was. They believe Green can fill the role Posey filled in '08. But Posey was a far better defender, was a smart player and didn't screw up the offense, and was clutch. Green has yet to indicate he is any of these things.

And they no longer fear Orlando (justified) and believe this will help them against Miami (possible) and they doubt the LAL coming out of the West and think it will help vs. the Spurs.

I get it. I just think they overrate Green (as you do) and underrate how much they'll miss that interior D in the playoffs. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Shaq will prove everyone wrong. But don't accuse me of not being able to follow along a discussion when you're the one clearly moving goalposts as we converse.

I am no alt account. Seriously, that would be pathetic. This is my first time posting on NeoGaf after following this thread for nearly a year now.

Perkins is hurt, and they have bodies to fill his roll, maybe not 100%, but 95%. Shaq/Kristic will be fine in the post along side teams that run with big lineups. For teams that try to go small, you now have Jeff Green who can guard STRETCH 4's, or at the 3, with KG @5. In those situations, green is a decent defender who will see his defense improve just purely due to the system. Green wasn't just a bench move, but a protection against teams who go small.


Green may/may not re-sign with them, but they've lost nothing, and gambled on a potential gain. They can get more rest for pierce down the stretch too, Green IS a 3. And he's healthy, that counts for a lot.

Your argument that they lost interior D is negated by Shaq and Kristic being perfectly ok as a tandem to body dwight or bynum, particularly with KG there. Their season didn't depend on Perkins, it depends on KG.

Is that what you wanted? because that's the extremely long winded version of what sanj was saying.

 

[SUPREME1]

If I were a member of Laker-Age, I would keep you in check. You are a complete asshat who offers nothing but blatant trolling to the boards. Very old, very quick.

Lol, stick to your blowhard posting and forget about keeping anybody in check.

 

[The Frankman]

Knicks beating Orlando on the glass early. Fields is flying everywhere.

 

[KingGondo]

100% of Jeff Green is better than 60 or 70% of Perkins.

Even though I think Perk will be healthy (and that our FO did its due diligence on that front), I truly believe that Perkins at 70% effectiveness is far more useful on our team than Green was at 100%. He wasn't efficient on offense, he couldn't guard over half of the league's opposing PFs, and Brooks refused to move him to the bench.

Having a true center makes our entire roster make more sense and fall into place, Green just didn't fit anymore.

 

[Sanjuro]

Sanjuro's entire argument is predicated on Perkins' being out for most of the rest of the season, including the playoffs, and on the Celtics' championship window not being, pretty much, this year. Since I seriously doubt Boston is going to be the best team in the East next year, I don't understand why they aren't going all-in rather than trying to build for some nebulous future that apparently involves thoroughly mediocre bigs like Green and Kristic.

And re: the Bynum argument, no. The "we should keep Bynum" arguments regarding a trade for Melo were stupid because it was fucking Melo. If it was "we shouldn't trade Bynum for Green and Kristic" it would be more of "well, duh" moment.

How many games has he played this season? How many games has he played for the Thunder? How much money did the Thunder give him (guaranteed)?

Bonus Question.

How often did you watch him play this season?

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

Getting punked by Jose Calderon. Mopey post-game CP3 tweets ahoy.

 

[Black Mamba]

I don't love Green. I'm not overrating him. The Celtics shipped out their coffins early this year. That is the entire purpose of the trades.

Perkins coming off a severe injury, now hurt his other leg from putting the stress onto it, not resigning with us after the season. NO THANK YOU. We got substance and most importantly HEALTHY bodies for him.

We have Green who is a solid, if unspectacular player. Kristic who will make KG more selfish which is something he needs to be going down the stretch.

We have Shaq, for his role I'm sure we can rely on when needed. We have Troy coming. J'O I have little to no faith in, if he is healthy in time for the playoffs? Sure. Sounds good.

Green will be gone after the season unless he proves something. We will have cap space. Business as usual.

I disagree with Green being solid or even average. That's my evaluation of him, and again, I may be wrong. I think he will hurt you. I don't say this as a Laker homer or wtvr, I thought the same when he was in OKC. Same with Krstc/Murphy getting minutes. Murphy's teams have always been worse at rebounding and defending when he's in the game rather than on the bench. I don't think this is a coincidence. As when Ryu said we should get Murphy just to put him on the bench and keep him away from you, I responded that I would rather him go there because his D will help us if he's out there.

At the end of the day, neither of us can prove anything about Green until the playoffs are over. Just my opinion versus yours. So let's leave it at that. I still see Boston as the fave to get out of the East, but I not think the Spurs and LAL definitely beat them.

As for cap room, you're 100% wrong here, at least according to the current CBA. Assuming Ray picks up his option, you're at $65 million next year, which would leave you with just the MLE everyone else over the cap has (not sure if y'all got the BE).

 

[Sanjuro]

Lol, stick to your blowhard posting and forget about keeping anybody in check.

You are basically proving my point. I congratulated you guys now three years in a row. The only thing you said to me afterward was a three letter expletive beginning with an "f". You just don't bring anything to the table in this thread than going for the jugular, for whatever reason you have justified.

Simply, I don't like you. I don't act like you.

 

[The Frankman]

Is it me or is Howard looking frustrated? He's got a cupcake matchup...

 

[Fox318]

Great shot by Billups there.

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

Man, David West is just a bull. He's backing down everybody.

 

[The Frankman]

lol Amar'e clocked Howard after howard bull rushed him. Refs letting them play (both should've gotten a foul)

EDIT: Ummm that's a foul refs.

 

[Sanjuro]

I disagree with Green being solid or even average. That's my evaluation of him, and again, I may be wrong. I think he will hurt you. I don't say this as a Laker homer or wtvr, I thought the same when he was in OKC. Same with Krstc/Murphy getting minutes. Murphy's teams have always been worse at rebounding and defending when he's in the game rather than on the bench. I don't think this is a coincidence. As when Ryu said we should get Murphy just to put him on the bench and keep him away from you, I responded that I would rather him go there because his D will help us if he's out there.

At the end of the day, neither of us can prove anything about Green until the playoffs are over. Just my opinion versus yours. So let's leave it at that. I still see Boston as the fave to get out of the East, but I not think the Spurs and LAL definitely beat them.

As for cap room, you're 100% wrong here, at least according to the current CBA. Assuming Ray picks up his option, you're at $65 million next year, which would leave you with just the MLE everyone else over the cap has (not sure if y'all got the BE).

You are right about not knowing until after the season is over. I just feel more confident with healthy players than hurt guys on the bench. I don't think either side of this argument can say "This was a terrible trade" or "This was a wonderful trade". I haven't gone that far but I don't think it was terrible by any stretch. I think it was necessary.

Also, I don't think Ray will be back.

 

[Fox318]

 

[Black Mamba]

[QUOTEI did already mention I understood the point of getting Green, just that I think they miscalculated.

Your argument that they lost interior D is negated by Shaq and Kristic being perfectly ok as a tandem to body dwight or bynum, particularly with KG there. Their season didn't depend on Perkins, it depends on KG.

Krstc is an awful defensive big, wtf man. Heck, he nearly blew the game last night on defense against Utah. Al Jefferson torched him and Harris continually scored in the paint.

Last season and this season OKC has been over 2 points per 100 better on D with him out. This only supports what I see out there.

Krstc is a terrible defender. As a Laker fan, I hope to see him out there.

Is that what you wanted? because that's the extremely long winded version of what sanj was saying.

Nah, just didn't want him to basically become "lol ur a lkr fan, wut do u no" type of responder.

 

[Sanjuro]

Oh, nice. Knicks are on NBAtv.

Nah, just didn't want him to basically become "lol ur a lkr fan, wut do u no" type of responder.

I'm not. You have several other members of your crew which makes it easy to believe so though.

 

[giri]

You are right about not knowing until after the season is over. I just feel more confident with healthy players than hurt guys on the bench. I don't think either side of this argument can say "This was a terrible trade" or "This was a wonderful trade". I haven't gone that far but I don't think it was terrible by any stretch. I think it was necessary.

Also, I don't think Ray will be back.

If you guys chip, i don't think he'll be back. Depends on the health of his kids though.

Then, if you lose ray, that team will have no redeeming players at all.

 

[The Frankman]

Still can't believe officials gave them the 4-point play, even NBA TV guys were killing the refs.

I'll leave this here - http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/photos?gameId=310228017&photoId=1158173

 

[Black Mamba]

You are right about not knowing until after the season is over. I just feel more confident with healthy players than hurt guys on the bench. I don't think either side of this argument can say "This was a terrible trade" or "This was a wonderful trade". I haven't gone that far but I don't think it was terrible by any stretch. I think it was necessary.

Also, I don't think Ray will be back.

I never called it terrible. Just think it's a big risk. See, I wonder if they could have gotten Gerald Wallace after seeing what Wallace went for. If I was Boston, I would have tried that trade first, but there doesn't seem to be any indication Boston even talked to Charlotte.

You think Ray walks away from $10 million and playing with Pierce/KG? Why?

(they'd still be at $55 million, + roster holds + draft pick if they have em which would mean no cap room under current rules).

 

[Sanjuro]

If you guys chip, i don't think he'll be back. Depends on the health of his kids though.

Then, if you lose ray, that team will have no redeeming players at all.

I love Ray. He was my favorite addition of the team. He is in a contract year, and he is playing some of the best ball he has in probably a decade.

The way the contracts were structured for the Celtics, they were made for him to exit next season. He really does want to stay here though, so there is always a surprise of a team friendly contract which would be nice.

EDIT: For some reason I didn't think it was a player option. He still might go for a longer final contract, stranger things have happened.

 

[Fox318]

Knicks can get anything.

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

I'm about ready to buy a James Johnson jersey. That guy is like the anti-Hedo.

 

[SUPREME1]

You are basically proving my point. I congratulated you guys now three years in a row. The only thing you said to me afterward was a three letter expletive beginning with an "f". You just don't bring anything to the table in this thread than going for the jugular, for whatever reason you have justified.

Simply, I don't like you. I don't act like you.

Speaking of proving points, LOL. Thank you so very much for proving mine.



Instead of acting like a pompous ass, you could have engaged Black Mamba differently. But instead you resorted to insulting him. Yet you're somehow the victim of attacks? Really?

If someone saying 'u mad' is just too much for you, I suggest you either toughen up just a tad or log off and never return.

 

[The Frankman]

Knicks can get anything.

Except a break.

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

Dwight on pace for 56.

 

[Sanjuro]

Speaking of proving points, LOL. Thank you so very much for proving mine.



Instead of acting like a pompous ass, you could have engaged Black Mamba differently. But instead you resorted to insulting him. Yet you're somehow the victim of attacks? Really?

If someone saying 'u mad' is just too much for you, I suggest you either toughen up just a tad or log off and never return.

I dunno, the conversion with him has straightened out and doesn't seem out of the ordinary. You really just don't get it. What is your problem?

 

[Fox318]

Except a break.

I forgot the T... Although I would rather see some d.

 

[DCX]

Tonight's Lineups

C - STAT
PF - Shawne Hornacek
SF - Carmelo
SG - Fields
PG - Billups

... fucking Denver taking Mozgov, didn't even need him.

Exactly, the worst part of the trade imo...


DCX

 

[YuriLowell]

Keep fighting the good fight Sanj.

We had the best record in the east without Perkins.

Dude might be good in the defense, but he is one of the worst offensive centers.

Also dude has no lift left in those knees.

Also when you look at the 08 championship year we only played perk 18 mins a game, and he sat out a good bit with a bum shoulder.

People are overvaluing the fuck out of Perkins. I loved him here in boston, and wish him nothing but the best on the thunder, but i hope you dont expect more then 35-40 game a year out of him, and maybe 6 or 8 points a night from him.

We got rid of Harangody and Semih to make room for Green and Kristic.

Id say that was a good idea.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Even though I think Perk will be healthy (and that our FO did its due diligence on that front), I truly believe that Perkins at 70% effectiveness is far more useful on our team than Green was at 100%. He wasn't efficient on offense, he couldn't guard over half of the league's opposing PFs, and Brooks refused to move him to the bench.

Having a true center makes our entire roster make more sense and fall into place, Green just didn't fit anymore.

On your team yes because you guys were using him ass backwards. Drafting the guy was a mistake when he plays the same position as your franchise guy. Perk might be medically okay but I would be afraid of how much of a lasting effect a serious knee injury like that will have on a guy who was already pretty limited athletically.

 

[Sanjuro]

On your team yes because you guys were using him ass backwards. Drafting the guy was a mistake when he plays the same position as your franchise guy. Perk might be medically okay but I would be afraid of how much of a lasting effect a serious knee injury like that will have on a guy who was already pretty limited athletically.

Watching him play didn't give much hope. He looked sluggish, limited in ability, and again hurt his other healthy leg. Going back to the origin lets not fool ourselves, Perkins is NOT an elite center. He has been incredibly serviceable and during our transition fit this team wonderfully. Is he worth the money that Thunder gave him? I don't think so. We offered him 4/22. He declined. You move on.

I liked the guy...but he was no Vin Baker.

 

[Black Mamba]

I love Ray. He was my favorite addition of the team. He is in a contract year, and he is playing some of the best ball he has in probably a decade.

The way the contracts were structured for the Celtics, they were made for him to exit next season. He really does want to stay here though, so there is always a surprise of a team friendly contract which would be nice.

EDIT: For some reason I didn't think it was a player option. He still might go for a longer final contract, stranger things have happened.

Really no reason for him to leave. Problem is the NBA has an over-36 rule on contracts that messes with the cap, regardless. This actually makes it difficult for teams under the cap to pay him his worth.

And with the way the Cs salaries are right now, they won't have cap room either way. I think he for sure stays next season. But the new CBA could change everything, but doubtfully to make it easier on teams like Lakers, Cs, Heat.


FTR, as a junior I cannot reign in my fellow Laker fans. Also, I'm not a homer, which I hope you will come to find out, when it comes to actual arguments regarding teams/players in the NBA (and despite my name, I find plenty of faults with Kobe). I have fun trollin' as much as the next guy, but in an actual debate I'll be honest about my assessments and reasons for them (often backed up by stats as much as possible, though it is by no means and end-all argument).

 

[dabig2]

I'm about ready to buy a James Johnson jersey. That guy is like the anti-Hedo.

Dude was an energizer bunny for the Bulls. Directly contributed to 2 wins that should've been losses and transformed his body for the team after a hard summer workout.

Unfortunately Thibs thought it better to rely on the "veteran wit" of Bogans when JJ should've been getting those 15 minutes allotted to Bogans and the delusion he brings. Front Office liked him as well, but not even they could budge Thibs. A shame.

 

[Judderman]

We signed Jared Jeffries again? TheKnicksChick am mad.

 

[diddles]

sup guys, orlando magic life long here teehee

 

[Blackace]

I disagree with Green being solid or even average. That's my evaluation of him, and again, I may be wrong. I think he will hurt you. I don't say this as a Laker homer or wtvr, I thought the same when he was in OKC. Same with Krstc/Murphy getting minutes. Murphy's teams have always been worse at rebounding and defending when he's in the game rather than on the bench. I don't think this is a coincidence. As when Ryu said we should get Murphy just to put him on the bench and keep him away from you, I responded that I would rather him go there because his D will help us if he's out there.

At the end of the day, neither of us can prove anything about Green until the playoffs are over. Just my opinion versus yours. So let's leave it at that. I still see Boston as the fave to get out of the East, but I not think the Spurs and LAL definitely beat them.

As for cap room, you're 100% wrong here, at least according to the current CBA. Assuming Ray picks up his option, you're at $65 million next year, which would leave you with just the MLE everyone else over the cap has (not sure if y'all got the BE).

Green will be a good player and is a decent player now. He has been playing out of postion pretty much his whole NBA career. He has a Scottie Pippen like body and style to him and Scottie would have been a shitty PF..

 

[Branduil]

Score 6 points quickly
Chill on bench until halftime
Rodrigue Beaubois

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

DeRozan is eating Willie Green alive. That guy's just not big enough to defend the 2.

 

[Fox318]

Thank you based Billup

 

[The Frankman]

Knicks like making 2nd quarter runs...

 

[Blackace]

sup guys, orlando magic life long here teehee

Sorry to tell you, but..

No one really cares about Magic fans..

 

[Blackace]

DeRozan is eating Willie Green alive. That guy's just not big enough to defend the 2.

Hope DoRo gets to play for a playoff team one day..

 

[Blackface]

DD doing good, he still needs to work on his 0.071 3pt percentage (literally, I am not joking, thats the percentage).

 

[Blackace]

You are right about not knowing until after the season is over. I just feel more confident with healthy players than hurt guys on the bench. I don't think either side of this argument can say "This was a terrible trade" or "This was a wonderful trade". I haven't gone that far but I don't think it was terrible by any stretch. I think it was necessary.

Also, I don't think Ray will be back.

I think it was a great trade for the Thunder.. Perk fits their needs better if he comes back soon.. Green was out of position and should do much better in Bos under Doc..