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2012 NBA Apr |OT| Presented By Unicef and Feed The Children, Fuk Yo Hunger Clown.

G

giri

Member
ph33nix said:
If it's easier to build a championship team around Melo then he must have had the worst GMs of all time his entire career
Click to expand...

Thats one interpretation.

The nuggets teams were good, but they were stuck with several big contracts, renewals, and all of their bigs had peaked and were done (and several were carrying injuries), NeNe is such a bizzare player. This years K-Mart is better than his last year with the Nuggets. He actually looks agile again. And the nuggets team had quite a run on injuries at the end.

But they did make the play offs every year iirc, and while most people will point out LBJ's impressive win totals (they were in the east) the West's play off teams were no joke in any given year of that stint. And their WCF run was quite something too.

But i think Melo is much more of a conventional player, and that makes it easier to fit him into many different offensive schemes. LBJ is very unique in the skills he's bringing. I think its very hard to build around him.

Entirely opinions. It's much like the Durant vs LBJ Debate. I think it would be much easier to build around Durant than LBJ too.
 
V

Vahagn

Member
Black Mamba said:
I said at least once, didn't say what season.

Also, Deron turns it over a lot less despite handling the ball less, as you describe. You're making my argument for me.

Cp3 is asked to do more than Deron (at least in Utah) and he's been better at it. That makes him a lot better.

Statistically, there is no argument. Non-statistically, the arguments make no sense. It's all based on bias with no real substance.


For instance: "CP3 may be the better "prober" and decision maker, but Deron is every bit as good of a playmaker and team leader..."

Total contradiction. You can't be a better decision maker and be as good a playmaker...

You're underestimating how good CP3 is.
Click to expand...

CP3 couldn't run Sloan's system because CP3 becomes completely useless without the ball in his hands. We've already seen how effective Deron can be off ball as a scorer, CP3 hasn't shown anyone that yet. So yes, CP3 is a better decision maker with the ball in his hands, but he's not nearly as effective or great with the ball out of his hands, or running a sequence or play that's more than just pick and roll.


CP3 is a better player, I still think that Deron is a more versatile player. In a situation like with the Lakers, I'd rather have Deron because he can pass and move, as well as dominate the ball.


So yes, you can be a worse decision maker, but be an equally good playmaker, if you can make plays for your team in more than just one type of offensive set. Passing, and then setting a back pick for a guy, or curling off and hitting an elbow jumper is "making a play" too. CP3 is Nash like in his split second decision making...but that's pretty much the only area where i give him a clear cut edge over Deron. And Deron is one of the best in the business...as a pure PG, so it's not that much better.


And don't use Sloan's system as an argument, it's an actual system and not the "get the ball in the hands of CP3 and let him work magic all game" type thing CP3's been living off of.


Anyway, CP3 is better but I'd rather have Deron for his versatility, health, ability to play off ball, and domination of CP3 in a head to head matchup.
 
D

diehard

Fleer
Black Mamba said:
Don't think you understood my claim. I said that play is good on his team's offensive efficiency. I didn't say his team's total OEff > Deron's.

For instance, last season playing with complete scrubs, it was 109 per 100. Without him it was 98 per 100. That's from really good offense to really bad offense.

Deron has played with better teammates. Cp3 never had a supporting cast that Deron had in Utah. Of course Deron's TEAM had a better OEff. Cp3's best players on offense were Peja dn West. Deron had Boozer, Millsap, AK47, Korver, Okur.

Cp3 is up to 113.5 in a lockout year (where all offense is down) and he has just Griffin. DeAndre can only dunk, Butler and Foye can barely shoot.

edit: Put it this way. deron's best OEff is 113, like CP3. Only he played with Matthews, boozer, Millsap, Okur, and brewer mostly to get it. Compared to Griffin, Butler, Foye, Jordan, Kenyon martin, Reggie Evans.
Click to expand...

Some of this makes no sense, you say how much worse CP3's teammates are but don't mention how most of the difference was in the bench, making such huge +/- in efficiency numbers for Paul.

Then mention Paul's teammates can't shoot and how they have such an efficient offense in the same breath? Unless its all of Paul's scoring (it's not, his usage is down) It wouldn't be possible for them to have that efficient of an offense if nobody could shoot. Any why are there %'s so low if he creates such great shots?
 
B

Black Mamba

Member
Vahagn said:
CP3 couldn't run Sloan's system because CP3 becomes completely useless without the ball in his hands. We've already seen how effective Deron can be off ball as a scorer, CP3 hasn't shown anyone that yet. So yes, CP3 is a better decision maker with the ball in his hands, but he's not nearly as effective or great with the ball out of his hands, or running a sequence or play that's more than just pick and roll.


CP3 is a better player, I still think that Deron is a more versatile player. In a situation like with the Lakers, I'd rather have Deron because he can pass and move, as well as dominate the ball.


So yes, you can be a worse decision maker, but be an equally good playmaker, if you can make plays for your team in more than just one type of offensive set. Passing, and then setting a back pick for a guy, or curling off and hitting an elbow jumper is "making a play" too. CP3 is Nash like in his split second decision making...but that's pretty much the only area where i give him a clear cut edge over Deron.


And he's better, as I said, but don't use Sloan's system as an argument, it's an actual system. Anyway, CP3 is better, I'd rather have Deron for his versatility, health, ability to play off ball, and domination of CP3 in a head to head matchup.
Click to expand...


Completely disagree. Especially since Cp3's spot up numbers are better. He played off ball just fine with Billups until Billups got hurt. CP3 is a better shooter than Deron, why wouldn't he be just as good if not better fit in Sloan's system? Sure, they'd adjust to Cp3s strengths a bit....because CP3 domination > Deron in Sloan's system.

Anyway, Deron wouldn't look that good in a pure triangle, either. Relegating him to a spot up shooter is stupid. Deron is better with the ball in his hands than almost never in his hands.


Some of this makes no sense, you say how much worse CP3's teammates are but don't mention how most of the difference was in the bench, making such huge +/- in efficiency numbers for Paul.

Then mention Paul's teammates can't shoot and how they have such an efficient offense in the same breath? Unless its all of Paul's scoring (it's not, his usage is down) It wouldn't be possible for them to have that efficient of an offense if nobody could shoot. Any why are there %'s so low if he creates such great shots?
Click to expand...

It's that those players can't shoot when CP3 isn't getting them open looks or easy looks. And Cp3 gets them to the FT line a lot (even if some suck at it). They also get more shots off because he turns it over a LOT less than Deron.

Are you trying to argue that Griffin + Foye + Butler + jordan is a better offensive foursome than Boozer/Millsap + Okur + Matthews + Brewer? lol


My point in the +/- numbers wasn't to compare to the bench. It was to show that Chris Paul on the floor for New Orleans was about the same as Deron in utah, despite worse players. NOH bench was worse than Utah's which raised Utah's overall team ratings.
 
V

Vahagn

Member
giri said:
Thats one interpretation.

The nuggets teams were good, but they were stuck with several big contracts, renewals, and all of their bigs had peaked and were done (and several were carrying injuries), NeNe is such a bizzare player. This years K-Mart is better than his last year with the Nuggets. He actually looks agile again. And the nuggets team had quite a run on injuries at the end.

But they did make the play offs every year iirc, and while most people will point out LBJ's impressive win totals (they were in the east) the West's play off teams were no joke in any given year of that stint. And their WCF run was quite something too.

But i think Melo is much more of a conventional player, and that makes it easier to fit him into many different offensive schemes. LBJ is very unique in the skills he's bringing. I think its very hard to build around him.

Entirely opinions. It's much like the Durant vs LBJ Debate. I think it would be much easier to build around Durant than LBJ too.
Click to expand...



I remember I made a claim that LBJ rarely dominates a game because he rarely scores 40 a game, or gets 15 boards, or gets 15 assists and people hounded on me.


I'm sorry but, Getting 7 assists a game doesn't make you a dominant playmaker

And Getting 8 boards a game doesn't make a you dominant rebounder.


LBJ is very good at everything, but besides defense, he's not dominant at any one thing. Even his scoring averages aren't dominant because rarely does LBJ go on a crazy scoring tear. He's the most gifted player in the league, but he's not truly dominant at anything on the offensive end and that's why so many of his stats look so meaningless.


If Ramon Sessions got 7 assists, it wouldn't look like he's dominating. Same feel with Bron. If Chris Bosh got 8 rebounds, no one would think he's dominating...same with Bron.


Part of the flaw of playing "within the system" is that you usually don't have dominant performances that way. You have dominant performances when someone says "fuck it" and tears shit up and goes on a crazy streak. And dominant performances are how you "impose your will" on a game, or a series, or what have you. And Bron rarely, for his talent level, ever dominates a game.
 
I

ItWasMeantToBe19

Banned
LBJ is very good at everything, but besides defense, he's not dominant at any one thing. Even his scoring averages aren't dominant because rarely does LBJ go on a crazy scoring tear. He's the most gifted player in the league, but he's not truly dominant at anything on the offensive end and that's why so many of his stats look so meaningless.
Click to expand...

lol
 
S

SoulPlaya

more money than God
This is fucking silly. No way was Rose taken out by Thibs for rest, because that would be ridiculously dumb. He has a right foot injury. Another fucking injury.
 
V

Vahagn

Member
Black Mamba said:
Completely disagree. Especially since Cp3's spot up numbers are better. He played off ball just fine with Billups until Billups got hurt. CP3 is a better shooter than Deron, why wouldn't he be just as good if not better fit in Sloan's system? Sure, they'd adjust to Cp3s strengths a bit....because CP3 domination > Deron in Sloan's system.

Anyway, Deron wouldn't look that good in a pure triangle, either. Relegating him to a spot up shooter is stupid. Deron is better with the ball in his hands than almost never in his hands.




It's that those players can't shoot when CP3 isn't getting them open looks or easy looks. And Cp3 gets them to the FT line a lot (even if some suck at it). They also get more shots off because he turns it over a LOT less than Deron.

Are you trying to argue that Griffin + Foye + Butler + jordan is a better offensive foursome than Boozer/Millsap + Okur + Matthews + Brewer? lol
Click to expand...

Bron is a more efficient post player than kobe, does that make him a better post player?


CP3 is a great shooter when he gets Little to Big Switches, the Big backs off and gives CP3 space, and he hits what's basically an open jump shot. I never question CP3's shooting numbers, but I don't think he's big enough to play off ball like a 2 guard regularly. D Will is. I don't prefer the ball being in the hands of one guy for 20 seconds while he's probing around. It takes a ridiculous level of skill to do that, Bron could do that too, but it's not an offense I prefer, and it's not an offense I think wins in the playoffs.

CP3 is a better player, but stop checking boxes in his favor if it's not true. He flops, his teams don't have great ball movement, and he's not as good as D Will off ball.



Arguing that he's better than D Will in every way is just a tad bit homerism dude
 
B

Black Mamba

Member
Vahagn said:
I remember I made a claim that LBJ rarely dominates a game because he rarely scores 40 a game, or gets 15 boards, or gets 15 assists and people hounded on me.
Click to expand...

40 points games over the last 5 years

Lebron: 25. 11 45+, 6 50+

Melo: 15. 6 45+, 2 50 (no 51+)


Bron is a more efficient post player than kobe, does that make him a better post player?
Click to expand...

No, because he's not more efficient. Unfortunately, post up data is all wrong. Plays that aren't post up are tabulated as post ups. In fact, most of them are.


CP3 is a better player, but stop checking boxes in his favor if it's not true. He flops, his teams don't have great ball movement, and he's not as good as D Will off ball.
Click to expand...


he's be better off ball. Because he's a better shooter when open and contested. Everywhere on the floor.
 
S

SoulPlaya

more money than God
TheGreatMightyPoo said:
You would have just yelled at him if he played or not mentioned him hitting the clutch shot if he did.

Bulls better without Rose this thread says...ahahahaha.
Click to expand...
These are the games Rose needs to get back into shape. When is he supposed to now? Against the Bobcats if he plays? Miami? The first round against NY? This is a team that he could have feasted on. The Bulls had no one to attack the inside. It's just so alarming that he's developed so many injuries, most of which are nagging ones that will definitely be recurring. He's had plenty of rest, and it still happens.
 
T

TheGreatMightyPoo

Banned
SoulPlaya said:
These are the games Rose needs to get back into shape. When is he supposed to now? Against the Bobcats if he plays? Miami? The first round against NY? This is a team that he could have feasted on. The Bulls had no one to attack the inside. It's just so alarming that he's developed so many injuries, most of which are nagging ones that will definitely be recurring. He's had plenty of rest, and it still happens.
Click to expand...

They said he tweaked that same ankle.

He probably could have went tonight but Thibodeau and the staff probably said "nah".

They did that for the last Knicks game.
 
S

SoulPlaya

more money than God
TheGreatMightyPoo said:
They said he tweaked that same ankle.

He probably could have went tonight but Thibodeau and the staff probably said "nah".

They did that for the last Knicks game.
Click to expand...
Then it's alarming. This team is made up of injury prone players. Noah, Boozer, Deng, and now Rose. They have no chance of winning a title with this makeup. On paper, yeah, but in reality, they'll never be healthy enough to win it.
 
V

Vahagn

Member
Black Mamba said:
40 points games over the last 5 years

Lebron: 25. 11 45+, 6 50+

Melo: 15. 6 45+, 2 50 (no 51+)
Click to expand...


That's not fair because Lebron used to have a lot of dominant games in Cleveland. This season, he's had 3 40 point games. Those statements about not being dominant were focused on this season....his apparent best season ever.


It's like people using Lebron Clutch data since 2003 and not mentioning that his clutch data has fallen off a cliff since he came to Miami.


Lebron gets 27, 7, and 7 without breaking a sweat or changing the complexion of the game. Every once in a while he'll have a 4th quarter like he just did and completely dominate...but that's rare, and far and few in between with the talent level he has is my point
 
I

ItWasMeantToBe19

Banned
DeMarre Carroll has been pretty alright for the Jazz.

Lebron gets 27, 7, and 7 without breaking a sweat or changing the complexion of the game. Every once in a while he'll have a 4th quarter like he just did and completely dominate...but that's rare, and far and few in between with the talent level he has is my point
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what you're even arguing at this point, Vag, but this is beautiful to read.
 
T

TheGreatMightyPoo

Banned
SoulPlaya said:
Then it's alarming. This team is made up of injury prone players. Noah, Boozer, Deng, and now Rose. They have no chance of winning a title with this makeup. On paper, yeah, but in reality, they'll never be healthy enough to win it.
Click to expand...

It's not alarming, he would have played if it was a playoff game.

Everyone is banged up nowadays, hard to expect full teams in the playoffs at 100%.

I guess Thibs bought into the hype and thought the Bulls could keep winning without Derrick, I didn't.

I didn't predict a loss but I knew it'd be a close game.
 
S

SoulPlaya

more money than God
TheGreatMightyPoo said:
It's not alarming, he would have played if it was a playoff game.

Everyone is banged up nowadays, hard to expect full teams in the playoffs at 100%.

I guess Thibs bought into the hype and thought the Bulls could keep winning without Derrick, I didn't.

I didn't predict a loss but I knew it'd be a close game.
Click to expand...
This shortened season has little to do with it. He's had more rest than ever. The Bulls need to be 100% healthy to have a chance against the Heat. With this team, that can't happen.
 
C

Canuck76

Banned
Black Mamba said:
can't complete a pass?
Click to expand...

Lol no. Good christian guy, who has the wackest game i think i've ever seen from a 3. Much like Tebow has a weird QB game

Also like Tebow takes deep, deep shots.

Also on the deron stuff I'm with giri here. Those guys are just so close it's tough to make super clear case either way. Just have to agree to disagree

And Lebron is dominant at scoring bro's
 
M

MorisUkunRasik

Member
TheGreatMightyPoo said:
It's not alarming, he would have played if it was a playoff game.

Everyone is banged up nowadays, hard to expect full teams in the playoffs at 100%.

I guess Thibs bought into the hype and thought the Bulls could keep winning without Derrick, I didn't.

I didn't predict a loss but I knew it'd be a close game.
Click to expand...

What other teams number 1 and number 2 guys have missed as much as Rose and Deng, how many have their amount of injuries?

Carlos Boozer isn't the most injury prone player you have and he isn't the second most.


You should be worried.
 
V

Vahagn

Member
ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
DeMarre Carroll has been pretty alright for the Jazz.



I'm not sure what you're even arguing at this point, Vag, but this is beautiful to read.
Click to expand...

I know you're part of the "Lebron is the greatest ever" fanclub.


But it's simple. He is the most talented player in the league but he gets empty stats all the times and he rarely dominates a game.

But, by all means, it's still more complimentary of Lebron than calling AK-47 "like lebron james" lol
 
B

Black Mamba

Member
Vahagn said:
That's not fair because Lebron used to have a lot of dominant games in Cleveland. This season, he's had 3 40 point games. Those statements about not being dominant were focused on this season....his apparent best season ever.


It's like people using Lebron Clutch data since 2003 and not mentioning that his clutch data has fallen off a cliff since he came to Miami.


Lebron gets 27, 7, and 7 without breaking a sweat or changing the complexion of the game. Every once in a while he'll have a 4th quarter like he just did and completely dominate...but that's rare, and far and few in between with the talent level he has is my point
Click to expand...

It's hard to get 40 point games when you share the ball with Wade and mostly blow out crappy teams.

Generally speaking, you score 40 because you have to against mediocre teams. I get your point, but I think you're missing a big component. Melo scoring 40 because he has to score 40. Lebron scores 30, team up 15, and he can chill.

In '08-09, Kobe only had 4 40 point games. Lakers won 65 games that year. It's hard to score 40 on a really good team because you're often too far ahead or have too many good players to utilize on O.
 
S

SoulPlaya

more money than God
MorisUkunRasik said:
What other teams number 1 and number 2 guys have missed as much as Rose and Deng, how many have their amount of injuries?

Carlos Boozer isn't the most injury prone player you have and he isn't the second most.


You should be worried.
Click to expand...
Straight up, and laugh if you want, but Boozer is our iron man. Think about that.
 
D

darkside31337

Tomodachi wa Mahou
Sixers are so, so bad. I have no idea how they even win one game against Chicago / Miami.

Wednesday night game between Boston and Orlando is pretty interesting now given the 3 way tie at 4-5-6.
 
T

TheGreatMightyPoo

Banned
MorisUkunRasik said:
What other teams number 1 and number 2 guys have missed as much as Rose and Deng, how many have their amount of injuries?

Carlos Boozer isn't the most injury prone player you have and he isn't the second most.


You should be worried.
Click to expand...

Not worried because it could be worse.

Noah and Boozer are fine, Rip seems fine now, Derrick has a minor aggravation of a minor injury.

Only Deng being deceased concerns me for the playoffs.

I'm just pissed because I'm not sure about the #1 seed now.

Bulls' remaining 6 games aren't absurdly hard nor easy.

Kobe is more injured than any Bulls player.
 
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