ThisWreckage
Banned
The fact that he has a title immediately catapults him above Barkley and Malone. People always say Malone had to go through Jordan, but Dirk went through Kobe, Durant, Westbrook, Wade, and Lebron on the way to his.
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2012 NBA Apr |OT| Presented By Unicef and Feed The Children, Fuk Yo Hunger Clown.
- Thread starter reilo
- Start date
Red Blaster
Member
Rumor that Dwight's officially asked for SVG to be sacked, pretty much all signs point to him getting the axe after the playoffs. I hope the Nate McMillan era is good.
Duncan has 4 titles. He had to go through Kobe and Shaq to get a few of them.
Duncan's number's and 4 titles makes him the greatest PF to ever play and no one is even close.
You can Argue that Dirk is second to Duncan because he has a title, his numbers go up in the playoffs and he's a 20 and 10 player in the playoffs, where 20 and 10 matters the most. He also has a regular season and finals MVP.
Duncan's number's and 4 titles makes him the greatest PF to ever play and no one is even close.
You can Argue that Dirk is second to Duncan because he has a title, his numbers go up in the playoffs and he's a 20 and 10 player in the playoffs, where 20 and 10 matters the most. He also has a regular season and finals MVP.
ThisWreckage
Banned
Definitely.
CoffeeJanitor
Member
He had a brilliant title run, but the championship BS needs to stop. If Dirk hadn't had Chandler on his team to cover for his average defense they don't win the finals. He didn't do everything on his own. If Cuban doesn't pick up a few of the good pieces from last year's team they have no chance. If that happened we wouldn't be talking about how much better of a player Dirk's one chip made him.
Eh... people piled up on Dirk due to the Warriors fiasco.
In all reality, Dirk should have two rings right now.
You can't take players away from a title team. 99% of the time a title team is a title team because they are one of the best teams in the league. You can do this for any title team. Dirk lead his team to title. That means a lot. A star player putting up numbers is nice, but at the end of the day they are all putting up those numbers because they want to win the title; they want their team to be looked at as the best team at the end of the season.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Bird. Why? Bird wasn't scared of anything. He simply didn't give a shit about who he punked, humiliated, etc. He wanted to win and humiliate you while he did it just like all of the greats. LeBron isn't there and after 9 years it's quite clear he never will be there. It's not in him.
ThisWreckage
Banned
If. If doesn't matter. Hypotheticals aren't something I'm going to entertain. He lead his team to a title and they are the reigning NBA champions. Dirk was the Finals MVP. Nothing takes that away from them. It's as ridiculous as saying, "If Kobe wasn't traded from Charlotte..."
CoffeeJanitor
Member
I don't disagree. This is the point I'm making. If Dirk doesn't have such a great team last year they don't sniff the finals, and people would still be piling on Dirk for "choking" or whatever, regardless of the fact that he's always turned it up in the postseason.
You're missing my point. Dirk played amazing, but were it not for his FO and teammates helping to cover for his deficiencies, he wouldn't win.
Neither is a ridiculous assertion. If Kobe wasn't traded from Charlotte is a valid question. I think that championships are impressive, but at the same time they're a joint success between the players, the coaching staff, and the front office.
Blackace
if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
Pretty much this...
Malone and Jordan had some other good players to play against as well..
Most who were better than Westbrook..
Winning a title does add some weight to Dirk's legacy... I still think his teams were way more talented than any team the Jazz ever had...
Chips are the final goal, which is why Pat, Chuck and Malone get shat on so much... But Dirk is not a better PF than Karl...
Still bothers me that people call him pf instead of a center or pf/c.
90% of the games he has played in post Admiral retirement he has been the tallest/heaviest guy in the lineup and plays in the post. If that's not a center than noone outside of Shaq has been a center since the 90s.
No matter what you call him he's one of the 10ish best players ever.
ThisWreckage
Banned
Defense is overrated. There's not a PF in the NBA as invaluable as Dirk. The Mavs would be Detroit bad if he got injured.
Ahahahahahahahahaha, ahahahahahahahaha, hahahhahahahahahaha, ahem, ahahahahahahahah hahahahahaha.
Comparing those dudes to Jordan in regards to how tough it is to get by them in the playoffs is asinine. Kobe/Shaq are the only post-Jordan players to have that tough to kill status. And even then, nothing was like trying to beat Jordan in his peak years.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
lol
Yep. Just like MJ going through Barkley, Malone, Ewing wasn't as difficult as going through Bird, Magic, Isaiah, Kareem, and Julius in the 80s.
ThisWreckage
Banned
Those players I listed are currently the best players in the NBA (not Westbrook, but he belongs in the same sentence as Aldridge and Gasol, two other players Dirk had to go through).
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Which is sad.
ThisWreckage
Banned
This is a great point.
Bird/Magic years. Dang, man. Those dudes were straight up end game bosses. We've got nothing but mini-bosses these days.
ThisWreckage
Banned
How is that trolling? Those players I listed are the premiere players in the NBA right now. That is a fact.
And Dirk is the most invaluable power forward in the NBA. Look at Dallas' record last year when he got injured. He gets injured and that team was straight up garbage.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Yep
Today's players will make fun of a guy who is ill during the finals but will refuse to pounce pounce pounce and rob the jugular. Back in the day the two stars would kiss before a game before they attempted to decapitate one another.I'm not missing the point. Its just that your point makes no sense. You don't want Jordan dominating the ball so the bulls had pippen and Tony handle the ball handling duties. Your arguing that because he had guys filling certain roles that his title doesn't mean as much. Basketball is a team sport. Guys have roles. That's the way it is. If you take a player that played an important role to a title team off the team then of course the team might not win it.
And lets not pretend like Chandler was a hot player that everyone was after when they got him from the bobcats. The bobcats gave him away that's how bad they wanted to get rid of him.
I would argue that Malone had a great team around him. He had better guard play than dirk and better outside shooting. And the Jazz platooned goon centers next to Malone. All of that helped him get to the finals twice. Maybe the biggest problem is that Malone's effectiveness in the playoffs took a hit? Rodman won the mental battle against him both times could also have something to do with it? Because that's what the stats and all the bush league things malone did against the bulls show.
CoffeeJanitor
Member
Bullshit. Just take a look at Duncan and Garnett in their primes (hell, look at KG now).
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Defense wins championships. If defense was overrated the Suns would've gone farther and had been more successful under Pringles.
Dirk isn't Duncan on defense, but that doesn't mean he's a bad defender. Dirk is an average defender. He moves his feet and uses his length well. Malone wasn't a defensive anchor either.
The suns have had bad luck most of the time. Guys would get hurt and miss games or one case get suspended and miss games. The suns making more than one deep run with Amare and Nash should be enough evidence that they weren't a fluke team like the Allen/Lewis sonics.
Diprosalic
Banned
suddenly everybody wants to play Dallas and avoid Memphis, heard this one before.
Dick Bavetta admits that he blew the Finals for the Jazz, though I still think we lose in 7 even if he doesn't screw up game 6 so badly. He says he had a hard time sleeping all offseason after that series.
But to say that Malone had a great team is laughable. Stockton was great, but after that the fall off is tremendous. Hornacek was a great shooter, but his knees were bone on bone by the time the Jazz got him.
Here's the roster that last made it to the Finals for the Jazz. Stockton and Malone were clearly dragging trash along for the ride.
Shandon Anderson
Antoine Carr
William Cunningham
Howard Eisley
Greg Foster
Jeff Hornacek
Troy Hudson
Adam Keefe
Karl Malone
Chris Morris
Greg Ostertag
Bryon Russell
John Stockton
Jacque Vaughn
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Bad luck happens but under Dantoni , the suns were a run and gun team which is fine but there has to be a successful defensive component in there as well.
As much as I enjoy ragging on the Jazz, it shows just what a great coach Sloan was and the quality of Stockton to be able to put the ball in the hands of those players at the right time to make them successful.
ThisWreckage
Banned
The best player Dirk has ever played with is arguably Marion. That's pretty shitty. Not even prime Marion.
The average player around Dirk has been fairly good. And do you forget that Dirk played with Nash? Dirk is a monster, but he's had some good help over the years.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Sorry but this idea that Dirk has had horrible teams is laughable. Seriously. Laughable. I'd rather have a team full of good or quality players with a superstar than two superstars and a craptastic team.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Don't make me relive those years, I beg thee.
ThisWreckage
Banned
Even Jazz fans wants to get rid of Devin Harris. Josh Howard has the lowest basketball IQ of any player I've ever seen. Eric Dampier? Jason Terry is good, but he an incredibly streaky shooter that doesn't play defense. Yeah, that sounds like a winning team.
Blackace
if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
lol... That's why Don Nelson and Mike D have won so many titles...
Why would you argue that? Stock was a stud.. True. Horny was trash on D... Great shooter. Whoever they had at SF was horrible until they got Russell who would have been a forgettable player but he got styled on by MJ in game six..
The stiffs they had at Center were helpful.. How can you say that a team with Olden, or Greg is a good thing?
His effectiveness went down? His stats are almost exactly the same.. lol
Malone was a beastly one on one defender... Not very good weak side defender but played pretty good team D..
Dirk is hot trash on D. He has gotten a bit better, but not much
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Devin Harris now? Sure. Josh Howard now? Sure. You don't get to two finals and win one with the worst supporting cast. Sorry. As Jeff said, want to see a craptastic team? Look at the post Shaq & pre Gasol years. THAT is crappy.
Blackace
if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
lol the Mavs were the deepest team for like the last 5 years..
Brandy's brainwashing is working
I still think that Kobe dragging that SHIT roster to the playoffs and Lebron dragging that SHIT Cleveland roster to the finals are the two most impressive individual efforts in the past decade of basketball. Including Dirk's great run last year, including Pau's stolen finals mvp in 2010, including the Wade ft fest against Dallas.
05-07 Kobe is so much better than the 08-2012 Kobe it's a fucking joke that so many people barely see the difference. Even though I'm no fan of his the fact he won his mvp after those years is one of the most hilarious/ass backwards things ever.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Apparently if a team doesn't have two superstars and one star, the team isn't deep nor great.
ThisWreckage
Banned
Devin Harris was never good. I remember people trying to crucify Mark Cuban for trading for Kidd. The dinosaur Jason Kidd is still a better PG than Harris. Is Josh Howard even still in the league? Nonetheless, Dirk has never had a legitimate second option.
Dirk's clutch play last playoffs was some god-tier shit. It's one thing to see a team come back once or twice in their championship run, but the way Dallas came back time, after time, after time was some exhilarating shit.
That's what sets Dirk apart from the likes of Malone.
That's what sets Dirk apart from the likes of Malone.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Never? NEVER? I guess you're right. Not like he had a point guard named Steve Nash. Nahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. And not like Terry has ever been a truly competent second option and threat. Nahhhhhhhhhhhhh. And the dinosaur of Jason Kidd is just a great player. It's not like he's a bad point guard who just happens to be better than Harris. Come on man.
Yes but lets remember, it wasn't JUST Dirk that inspired those come backs. The Mavericks had shooters show up the likes of which I had never seen before (apart from Houston in 94-95). They couldn't miss. Dirk was the catalyst but lets not argue he didn't have a whole lot of help.
jordan0386
Member
ThisWreckage
Banned
Nash did not become become the player he is now until after he left Dallas. He was a terrible fit there. And Jason Terry is volume scorer that doesn't play defense. Streaky as all hell.
Dirk wouldn't have ever made the Finals with those old Jazz teams because his defense is so weak that they wouldn't have made it out of the West. Malone scored a lot, but he was tough defensively too.
Blackace
if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
lol Nash, Finley, Walker, Jaminson, Terry, Marion, Butler, NVE were some of the players you forgot that Dirk played with in the last eight years or so...
And Dirk was the one still taking the final shot when the team needed a go-ahead bucket to win the game. Whether it was a three, a left handed layup, a one-footed fadeaway... It wasn't just the fact that he got those makes, it's how he got them and how varied the shots were. Malone could never have done that.
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