CommonSense
Banned
Durant won't be playing in 10 years if he doesn't add some goddamn muscle.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
2012 NBA Apr |OT| Presented By Unicef and Feed The Children, Fuk Yo Hunger Clown.
- Thread starter reilo
- Start date
Durant won't be playing in 10 years if he doesn't add some goddamn muscle.
ryutaro's mama
Member
Unless you're the oldest person on GAF, you have never seen any of the bolded play basketball.(YT doesn't count)
I always love when people place players they never saw play in a contemporary setting, against players in the now.
It was a completely different league when those guys played and the stats they put up happened accordingly. You would NEVER be able to field those Celtic teams with today's CBA/FA rules. Russell played with a plethora of HOFers. DEM RINGS happened when there were like 8 teams in the league.
I bet Babe Ruth is in your top 5 all time beisbol list too.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Here we go.
CommonSense
Banned
LOL, I've seen them all...it's called Espn classic.
I've never seen Jim Brown live either...should we take him off the all time nfl list?
Salty kids are salty.
As for Top 5 of my time?
MJ
Bird/Johnson
Kareem
Hakeem
Shaq
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Yea man. Apparently watching games on ESPN, ESPN Classic, Youtube don't count. I'm sure when kids who never saw MJ play put him on the top 10 list in 10 years their argument should be invalid since they never saw him while he was playing. Dumb argument.
CommonSense
Banned
And Oh yean Ruth is in my top 5. You'd be a goddamn snotnosed fool not to admit he was one of the best baseball players of all time.
ryutaro's mama
Member
Here we go?
Those Celtic teams weren't stacked and faced far inferior competition? How the fuck else do you run off 11 chips in 13 years if you're Bill Russell?
Cause you're just that damn good?
With like 8 teams in the league, the playoffs were shorter as well.
GTFO.
CommonSense
Banned
Kid, go take a break. Seriously. Grown ass men are talking.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
So salty. Yes, your team is THAT good. And contrary to what you may believe, less teams equates to more competition. There just happened to be a team with a player named Bill Russell who revolutionized the game via defense. There also happened to be a team named the Lakers who had West/Baylor who dominated as well but couldn't stop the Celtics when it mattered most. The NBA has 30 teams and is watered down.
And know what else? I actually enjoy listening to the greats of the game who DID play. I enjoy and respect their opinion.
I never saw Willie Mays play live but I sure as hell respect and enjoy listening to the sports writers, players, and coaches who DID, as well as fans who watched him and Aaron, Mantle, Bob Gibson, and Koufax play.
ryutaro's mama
Member
Seeing fucking highlight reels is the same as watching that shit in real time with all the trappings/nuances of watching a player throughout a season.
If a kid in 10 years sees a Kobe highlight package (or cherry picked great games) on ESPN Classic, he might be the second greatest player of all time.
FFS, there isn't even any video of the '100' game but people (that never saw it) talk about how great it was. I saw Jeffrey's 69. I saw Robinson's 71. I saw Kobe's 81. No one had to tell me how awesome it was in a re-telling by on-site eyewitnesses.
Dumb argument.
CommonSense
Banned
What's a dumb argument is your lack of respect for history and your inability to communicate like a man.
ryutaro's mama
Member
Then why are you still posting?
Blackace
if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
Best 3 by position..
I am only going to list players I have seen..sorry Bill Wilt and Jerry
PG
1) Magic - Ran the fast break better than anyone
2) Stockton - Hate saying it..but ran half court sets better than almost anyone
3) Kidd - basically the perfect blend of Magic and Stockton
SG
1) MJ - unstoppable before Jordan Rules.. God like after he could do anything he wanted
2) Kobe - Modeled his game after older Jordan.. Results are almost the same
3) Cylde - People forget how good he was, maybe it's because he looked old when he was young
SF
1) Bird - Dude was basically Adam Morrinson in athletism but played the game of basketball like few others...
2) Pippen - the true jack o all trades player and one of the greatest lockdown defenders ever. Underrated passer and ball handler
3) LBJ - basically Pippen light, but a better scorer and worse defender
PF
1) Malone - all the post from before
2) TD - Just a winner who knows how to play basketball at both ends of the court
3) KG - Dirk almost took this slot, but KG plays incredible D and is an underrated passer
C
1) Dream - Greatest skill set I have ever seen in a big man.. And his D changed games and the way teams could play
2) Shaq - in his prime he was an unstoppable force off the block.. He wasnt a great defender but a good rebounder
3) Patrick Ewing - shocker! But in his prime was a very complete player on O and D.. His true prime was a little too short tho..
Honorable mentions Wilkins, Payton, Zeke, Dirk, Barkley, D12...
I am only going to list players I have seen..sorry Bill Wilt and Jerry
PG
1) Magic - Ran the fast break better than anyone
2) Stockton - Hate saying it..but ran half court sets better than almost anyone
3) Kidd - basically the perfect blend of Magic and Stockton
SG
1) MJ - unstoppable before Jordan Rules.. God like after he could do anything he wanted
2) Kobe - Modeled his game after older Jordan.. Results are almost the same
3) Cylde - People forget how good he was, maybe it's because he looked old when he was young
SF
1) Bird - Dude was basically Adam Morrinson in athletism but played the game of basketball like few others...
2) Pippen - the true jack o all trades player and one of the greatest lockdown defenders ever. Underrated passer and ball handler
3) LBJ - basically Pippen light, but a better scorer and worse defender
PF
1) Malone - all the post from before
2) TD - Just a winner who knows how to play basketball at both ends of the court
3) KG - Dirk almost took this slot, but KG plays incredible D and is an underrated passer
C
1) Dream - Greatest skill set I have ever seen in a big man.. And his D changed games and the way teams could play
2) Shaq - in his prime he was an unstoppable force off the block.. He wasnt a great defender but a good rebounder
3) Patrick Ewing - shocker! But in his prime was a very complete player on O and D.. His true prime was a little too short tho..
Honorable mentions Wilkins, Payton, Zeke, Dirk, Barkley, D12...
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Yes, and I saw them as well. Did Wilt get 100ppg against an NBA team? Yes? Ok then. Did Wilt average 50ppg against his NBA competition? Ok. Did Wilt grab 55 boards in a game against the Celtics of all teams? Ok. Did Wilt average 48.6 mpg for an entire season in the NBA? Ok then. Did Oscar average a triple double against NBA talent for an entire season? Ok then. Did Russell lead the Celtics to 11 chips in 13 seasons in the NBA? Ok then.
Nobody is arguing Wilt would average 50ppg in THIS NBA. Nobody is arguing that Russell would win 11 chips in THIS NBA (though MJ could've done 8 in 8 years so who am I to say no). Is anybody arguing that Oscar would average a trip double in this NBA? LeBron has come somewhat close and Magic came VERY close a couple of times.
Again, I enjoy history. I enjoy reading about history, talking to people who lived during previous generations to pick their mind. I never saw Michael Jordan for 82 games in a season but you better damn well believe what I did see made me a believer. You better damn well believe that listening to the praise from those he competed against made me a believer. You better damn well believe that listening to the praise of his coaches made me a believer. The same goes with players who thrived before I was born.
CommonSense
Banned
Let's talk about who you think is better than Bird or Johnson because you didn't see them play, you probably caught the.tail end of Mike too.
So, junior, who is better than them.
PS: If you are under 28 don't you dare say you watched them play...I'm going by your rules.
wraps fingers on table....
ryutaro's mama
Member
Has nothing to do with a lack of respect for history.
The playing field was never equal, ever.
There's a reason that no one has come close to running off 11 chips in 13 years since. And it has more to do with factors that exist today that didn't exist then, like salary capping and FA.
Russell's only competition was Chamberlain, and those teams he was on were vastly inferior for years.
CommonSense
Banned
ryutaro's mama
Member
You're not arguing this?!?! Huh?
That's exactly what the fuck I'm saying and you're giving me flack for it. Shit ain't equal. You don't average 50ppg against equals. You don't grab 55 boards against equals.
All I have maintained is the greats played against inferior competition and the stats bear this out.
CommonSense
Banned
Kid if you don't think that Wilt and Bill wouldn't be 1a and 1b in the league right now with modern training you're crazy.
LOL. Go watch beisbol cabron.
ryutaro's mama
Member
You are the complete opposite of your user name.
And where did I say that Wilt and Russell wouldn't be great today, pal?
I said that they aren't putting up those god tier stats in today's NBA. Period.
No 100 point game. No averaging 50ppg. No 11 chips in 13 years.
Try again.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Would Wilt avg 50? No. Would he be better than Dwight? Id argue he'd be Shaq with better defense. Would Russell avg 22 rebounds? Probably not but hed be te best rebounder and defender in the league and would be the anchor for a team. Kobe and MJ and Magic all faced inferior talent since they were so far above their competition. Its no different with Wilt, Kareem, Oscar, Russell.
This is why I don't like comparing guys pre 80s with post 80s.
Maybe a ton of those cocaine era guys could have been even more amazing with modern training/no drugs? Maybe Russell growing up today would be bastardized into being some stretch 4 instead of a defensive presence when he grew up. Maybe some of the guys like Russel of that era wouldn't have been tough S.O.B.S if they didn't have to deal with all the racial bullshit of the 60's that makes today seem like paradise? If Nash played in the 70s maybe he becomes a coke head and flames out after two - three seasons. Maybe Kobe gets fucking murdered by a bunch of psychos in the 60s for fucking a white woman even without the rape accusation.
CommonSense
Banned
you're making no sense at all. Either they can play or they can't. You infer they can't play. Now you say they can.
Wilt right now would be a 30 and 15 guy who shuts down Howard on the regular.
Skill is skill...the way they play now wih this powder puff no touch league he probably could go for 100 as he could...you know....shot free throws.
Could Tyson beat Ali?
Not sure if shutting down Howard means much when the Collins bros and Shaq's half rotten corpse in Cleveland fucked him up. There are middle school kids that play at the playground near my house that have better post footwork/more moves than Dwight.
The Frankman
Banned
Pretty much. People want to separate the real life but put the basketball in a vacuum. Doesn't work that way with the "two eras" comparisons.
CommonSense
Banned
Which bqcks my point...center now isn't like center then. Back then 5's had a gasp...skill set.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Ryu, I don't see the achievements of the greats of yesteryear being somehow less impressive simply due to the generation they took place in. Why? Because it just demonstrates HOW GREAT they were. That they were able to so dominate their competition in ways that haven't been duplicated since. The fact that Babe Ruth hit more home runs than any team in that season is DISGUSTING. I am not going to try to discount such an achievement when seriously making my list of the top players of a particular support.
And that is true, it doesn't work in a vacuum. I don't mind the generational lists, nor do I mind the tier picks. But I don't think one needs to discount the context of an achievements of yesteryear in order to appraise the achievement itself.
And that is true, it doesn't work in a vacuum. I don't mind the generational lists, nor do I mind the tier picks. But I don't think one needs to discount the context of an achievements of yesteryear in order to appraise the achievement itself.
MorisUkunRasik
Member
One day someone will say "Kobe couldn't drop 81 on today's teams."
CommonSense
Banned
I think Hakeem could still put 20 and 10 on Howard at age 50.
CommonSense
Banned
You mean like today today? He could shoot it 81 times I guess...
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Exactly. Who cares if he couldn't do it verses tomorrow's teams. He did it against an NBA team which is really all that matters. I mean you already had people saying he couldn't score 81 against a top NBA team which the Raptors never have been. He did it against an NBA team.
Black Mamba
Member
Parker was 15 & 5 on 47% shooting and would get benched in the playoffs for Speedy Claxton...
And DRob only played 24mpg in the playoffs. Parker and Manu shot combined under 40% in the playoffs. That team was 90% Duncan.
Malone wins the longevity argument. But at their peak, I'm taking Duncan 100 out of 100 times. And considering most of their career, same deal.
BTW, Karl only shot above 41% on Utah once after turning 34, the lockout season. And there's defense. Karl shot more than Timmy but wasn't that efficient as Timmy is right now. And he had Stockton feeding him for half a game. I wouldn't argue he was much more productive, if at all.
Guys, guys.
Pistol Pete Maravich was such a boss that it literally said, "Pistol" on the back of his jersey. That's awesome.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z2HyiNk0SE
Dude was so awesome. I wish there were more highlights of him out there.
Pistol Pete Maravich was such a boss that it literally said, "Pistol" on the back of his jersey. That's awesome.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z2HyiNk0SE
Dude was so awesome. I wish there were more highlights of him out there.
I'm with Ryu here. Watching players on ESPN classic and shit doesn't count when you have to watch a player a hell of a lot more to come to a conclusion about his place in history. and his point about inferior competition isn't anything to scoff at because it's a fact. he isn't arguing "because you didn't watch him play you can't say that" but you can't rank a dude solely on stats and shit
and yeah I get tired of people placing Russell on some legendary list. his accomplishments are undeniable and because of the advancement of medicine you can't compare him to modern day athletes but let's not ignore the fact that the nba was much smaller and way less competitive especially with the stacked squads
and yeah I get tired of people placing Russell on some legendary list. his accomplishments are undeniable and because of the advancement of medicine you can't compare him to modern day athletes but let's not ignore the fact that the nba was much smaller and way less competitive especially with the stacked squads
CommonSense
Banned
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
You do realize that Bill Russell was the same height as Alonzo, an inch shorter than Hakeem and Dwight Howard, and Tim Duncan. Right?
CommonSense
Banned
His dad made him dribble a basketball out the window of a CAR on the way to school.
true story
Steve Jackson mastrubates to the pistol..
true story
ryutaro's mama
Member
WHEN THE FUCK DID I SAY THEY COULDN'T PLAY?!?! Quote that shit. You can't cause it never happened.
I said, again, the stats of the greats point to my point (that they had NO EQUALS BACK THEN) and that supports the god like stats they had then. It doesn't say they weren't talented (they were extremely talented) but back then, they were more of an anomaly than they are now. They had no one even in their galaxy, size and athleticism wise, except each other. The league also didn't have things in place then (FA and salary capping) like it does now. What that means is, dominant teams (like the 60s Celtics) could continue to build and build on top of pre-existing talent and strengthen their grip. The amount of HOFers from those teams bear that out.
Shutting down Howard while scoring 100 points? Grabbing 55 boards? Averaging 50ppg? Something would give man. Wilt's numbers in today's NBA would come back down to Earth.
Wilt was a horrible FT shooter. And no, he's not going for 100 in today's NBA.
Yeah he was also like 80 pounds skinnier. They would have dominated the shit out of him physically. according to basketball reference he was 6'9 215 pounds
but that's besides the point. russell's teams dominated a league less than half the size of what it is now
I don't ignore achievements, I just don't place them as high on the pedestal as apparently you
He'd go for 200!
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Yes, and Russell wouldn't take advantage of the same type of workout regiments, nutritional plans, etc. Nope. He'd definitely have been a 6'10 215lb center today. Yep.
Black Mamba
Member
Comparing players today to 60 years ago is futile. The league is so different. Truth is, a scrub from today could probably dominate back then (assuming they hopped in a time machine) due to athleticism alone.
Players are bigger, faster, stronger, healthier, and more skilled. By a large margin.
Players are bigger, faster, stronger, healthier, and more skilled. By a large margin.
Kenny Blankenship
Neo Member
sry if old but this is hilarious
ryutaro's mama
Member
Would Russell win 11 in 13 years,(with today's salary restrictions and CBA requirements) regards of how he bulked up?
Y/N
All your sarcasm is doing is proving my point that you can't compare them physically. And even if Russell is trained like the modern athlete today (And he by the way allegedly wasn't a good scorer) you think he's going to get 11 rings playing in the latter eras?
I'm not really arguing oh today's athletes would own back then and back then wouldn't do shit now, that's not what I'm saying. It's just that the competition was in fact easier for them so a lot of their statistical and award accomplishments would be much more difficult in the modern era where the game has grown a ton
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Am I going to say flat out that he wouldn't? No I won't say that. Will I say that it's highly unlikely? Yes. But again, I'm also not going to argue that players of today could do what Russell and the Celtics did if they played back then. We see how close Wilt came to that. We saw how close Jerry West and Baylor came to it.
He was an adequate scorer for what the Celtics needed of him (check his stats in college, pretty good scorer). But lets flip it. Would LeBron James in 1960-1970 win 11 chips? Would Shaq? Would Dwight? Would Dirk? Remove all of the benefits they have in playing today, bring them to the 1960s. We know that no other first option player of Russell's caliber did what he did in the history of the NBA, including the greatest of the decade.
Black Mamba
Member
Russell's Boston teams had like 5 of the top 15 players in the league. the Russell idolizing has gotten out of whack.
Wilt had some shitty teammates, too. Played with like 2-3 Fishers at a time.
It was simply a different era. You can't compare. People didn't really know how to play basketball back then.
HOW WOULD SHAQ NOT WIN EVERY YEAR? WHO COULD DEFEND HIM!?
Khalifa Jayy
Banned
Solid list but leaving off Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is unforgivable.
yes they would all win 11 championships if they also got to play in a 10 league team with 5 of the league's best on that team
I'm also pretty sure not because I watched but based on stats for shots taken and PPG scored that Russell wasn't the first option on offense but Havlicek was
Russell never averaged more than 20 ppg
and yeah, you and I and Mamba could have played with shaq on the 60s celtics and they would have chipped up
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked