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2012 NBA Apr |OT| Presented By Unicef and Feed The Children, Fuk Yo Hunger Clown.

Blackace

Blackace

if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
Branduil said:
I bet a lot of guys who sucked at rebounding wished they could average 10.4 rpg in the playoffs.

It's funny to see Blackace agreeing with trax's post where he basically admits he can't read.
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It's funny to see you still blaming JET after he gave Dirk a title
 
R

ryutaro's mama

Member
ClovingSteam said:
Actually, Russell won two as player coach but thats besides the point.
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Yeah, I remembered that when I hit post.

The Jordan argument does belong. We're discussing competition. Success dictates just what type of competition there is or isn't. A team that wins 6 straight championships when MJ is playing a full season doesn't have any competition. Sorry. And they didn't have any competition because of how great they were, not because of how poor the other teams were.
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It's doesn't belong because of all the points I mentioned, most important being, the insane record of 11 in 13. Nothing Jordan did was equal to that, regardless of how you spin it and there is a reason for that. Those reasons are spelled out in previous posts. And remember, Jordan didn't start running off chips until the Lakers, Celtics and Pistons were past their prime. Jordan's accomplishment, imo, was a greater feat because the 90s NBA was far better than the 60s NBA.

Also, you never answered my question of whether you are downplaying the success that players and teams had in the 1960s due to the circumstances. If you're not then we pretty much agree. If you do think the decade and circumstances dictate that said achievements aren't as impressive as those made since that is where we disagree.
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I answered it several times. The factors that were at play in the 60s weren't there in modern times that directly attributed to the success of those Celtics.
 
J

jordan0386

Member
I mean, Akeem won 2/3 chips. But those were his only 3 solid years. Kareem is Kareem. He needs to be number 1 on every bloodclott list.
 
B

Branduil

Member
Blackace said:
No one thinks that, but Dirk is horrible on D and has ALWAYS been...
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Prove it. Post-Don Nelson, the Mavs have basically always been one of the better defensive teams in the league. The last few years, the Mavs' defense is substantially worse when Dirk is off of the court. That doesn't happen when you're a trash defender.

Blackace said:
It's funny to see you still blaming JET after he gave Dirk a title
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I'm not blaming JET, but to claim he's on the level of a superstar is ludicrous. He's had two good playoff runs in the last six years.
 
C

ClovingWestbrook

Banned
ryutaro's mama said:
Yeah, I remembered that when I hit post.



It's doesn't belong because of all the points I mentioned, most important being, the insane record of 11 in 13. Nothing Jordan did was equal to that, regardless of how you spin it and there is a reason for that. Those reasons are spelled out in previous posts. And remember, Jordan didn't start running off chips until the Lakers, Celtics and Pistons were past their prime. Jordan's accomplishment, imo, was a greater feat because the 90s NBA was far better than the 60s NBA.



I answered it several times. The factors that were at play in the 60s weren't there in modern times that directly attributed to the success of those Celtics.
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Then we'll have to agree to disagree on this issue.
 
L

Liquidsnake

Banned
1) Kobe-He eclipsed Jordan, and made everyone forget who #23 was.
2) Magic/Larry
3) Kareem
4) Jerry West
5) Micheal Jordan- I have long believed that one or two of his rings were handed to him by Stern as payback for a debt, I don't want to get into what I have heard.
 
Blackace

Blackace

if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
Branduil said:
Prove it. Post-Don Nelson, the Mavs have basically always been one of the better defensive teams in the league. The last few years, the Mavs' defense is substantially worse when Dirk is off of the court. That doesn't happen when you're a trash defender.
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it does happen when you have no viable backup...
 
Blackace

Blackace

if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
Liquidsnake said:
1) Kobe-He eclipsed Jordan, and made everyone forget who #23 was.
2) Magic/Larry
3) Kareem
4) Jerry West
5) Micheal Jordan- I have long believed that one or two of his rings were handed to him by Stern as payback for a debt, I don't want to get into what I have heard.
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Wtf is this shit?
 
B

Branduil

Member
Blackace said:
it does happen when you have no viable backup...
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You can't get worse than trash on defense. And it still doesn't explain them having some of the best defensive teams in the league. I mean, just look at the difference between Dirk and Chandler last year, and Amare and Chandler this year. I'm sure if you asked Tyson, he wouldn't call Dirk a trash defender.
 
C

ClovingWestbrook

Banned
Branduil said:
You can't get worse than trash on defense. And it still doesn't explain them having some of the best defensive teams in the league. I mean, just look at the difference between Dirk and Chandler last year, and Amare and Chandler this year. I'm sure if you asked Tyson, he wouldn't call Dirk a trash defender.
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Well, no offense but I'm sure Chandler would say that Mike Bibby is a great defender next to Amare.
 
Blackace

Blackace

if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
Branduil said:
You can't get worse than trash on defense. And it still doesn't explain them having some of the best defensive teams in the league. I mean, just look at the difference between Dirk and Chandler last year, and Amare and Chandler this year. I'm sure if you asked Tyson, he wouldn't call Dirk a trash defender.
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Amare is the worse defender of all time
 
I

ItWasMeantToBe19

Banned
Blackace said:
His numbers are like exactly same in the regular season and post season... Few players can claim that...

I don't think it's Malone's style of play but rather Sloan's style of coaching...
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Most of his numbers were the same, but what a major part of what made him such a legendary regular season scorer was his efficiency and that declined dramatically in the playoffs once a lot of the buckets he got from beating his man up the court declined. He went from shooting 53% in the regular season to 46% in the playoffs all the time. He was a very skilled player and still very effective in the playoffs, but he dropped off from his regular season performance. I still loved him (though I get why every other fanbase hated him) and he's an amazing player though, just not as great as Duncan.


Russell's Boston teams had like 5 of the top 15 players in the league. the Russell idolizing has gotten out of whack.

Wilt had some shitty teammates, too. Played with like 2-3 Fishers at a time.
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Wilt had better teammates than Russell the last four years of Russell's career and Russell still ended up with three rings in those years.
 
P

Puddles

Banned
Magic, Stockton, Glove
Jordan, Kobe, Logo
Bird, Dr. J, Pippen
Duncan, Malone, KG
Kareem, Wilt, Russell

^ Definitive list; debate should now be closed on this subject.
 
E

Emwitus

Member
enhanced-buzz-2318-1333466698-1.jpg



I thought this was nice...
 
B

Black Mamba

Member
ClovingSteam said:
Your point is that no team in the 1980s with how deep they were replicated what Russell's teams did in the 1960's and you're right, but neither were they able to match what the Bulls of the 1990's accomplished. So again, do we discount MJ and the Bulls success because no team in the 1970s, 1980s, nor 2000s were able to match their success?
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No, that is amazing what MJ and the Bulls did which is why they're often considered the greatest team ever.

Russell played in an era that was very different. Have you ever seen them dribble?

Just look what happened to Mikan when the league started to be able to run up and down the court. he couldn't hang, any longer.


But this is where we differ. The very fact that MJ and the Bulls won 6 out of 8 shows that nobody was on their level. The Bulls ran off two 3-peats in 8 years. During that time they were pretty much untouchable. There simply wasn't any true competition for them. You don't win 72 games in a season and have competition. You don't win 6 out of 8 and have competition. It's no different than with the Celtics of the 1960s. You won't win 11 out of 13 and have competition. Their amazing success dictates that there wasn't any true competition.
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But those Bulls teams played in an era where free agents moved and there were more teams and no regional draft picks. the Celtics were allowed to maintain their dominance due to different factors outside the court. Bulls were much more impressive because teams tried to build up to beat them, but couldn't. The Cs beat the same teams over and over for the most part.

And Jordan still had just Pippen an grant/Rodman as far as top tier players go, compared to Russell.
 
C

ClovingWestbrook

Banned
Puddles said:
Best defensive wing of all time. That shit's important, yo.
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ThisWreckage said:
Defense is overrated..
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Like hell it is.

Black Mamba said:
No, that is amazing what MJ and the Bulls did which is why they're often considered the greatest team ever.

Russell played in an era that was very different. Have you ever seen them dribble?

Just look what happened to Mikan when the league started to be able to run up and down the court. he couldn't hang, any longer.




But those Bulls teams played in an era where free agents moved and there were more teams and no regional draft picks. the Celtics were allowed to maintain their dominance due to different factors outside the court. Bulls were much more impressive because teams tried to build up to beat them, but couldn't. The Cs beat the same teams over and over for the most part.

And Jordan still had just Pippen an grant/Rodman as far as top tier players go, compared to Russell.
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Just? Yea, only the greatest defensive wing and one of the greatest all around players and also arguably the greatest pound for pound rebounder of all time. Yea, just that. The Bulls of 96-98 were the Miami Heat but successful.
 
B

Black Mamba

Member
Blackace said:
Pretty much everyone but you agrees that Dirk is hot trash on D.. So.. Yeah..
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Dirk isn't bad at defender, anymore. It used to be the case, but i thought he turned the corner in 2006 when he became passable and since then he's been average. A good defensive rebounder and someone who generally stays between his man and the basket.

Dirk's improvement on D was pretty significant considering how bad he used to be.
 
S

SoulPlaya

more money than God
Rip Hamilton said he felt a sharp pain in his shoulder when he bumped someone during the last Bulls game, but he fought through it. Worst signing of the year.
 
C

charsace

Member
Blackace said:
Best 3 by position..

I am only going to list players I have seen..sorry Bill Wilt and Jerry

PG
1) Magic - Ran the fast break better than anyone
2) Stockton - Hate saying it..but ran half court sets better than almost anyone
3) Kidd - basically the perfect blend of Magic and Stockton

SG
1) MJ - unstoppable before Jordan Rules.. God like after he could do anything he wanted
2) Kobe - Modeled his game after older Jordan.. Results are almost the same
3) Cylde - People forget how good he was, maybe it's because he looked old when he was young

SF
1) Bird - Dude was basically Adam Morrinson in athletism but played the game of basketball like few others...
2) Pippen - the true jack o all trades player and one of the greatest lockdown defenders ever. Underrated passer and ball handler
3) LBJ - basically Pippen light, but a better scorer and worse defender

PF
1) Malone - all the post from before
2) TD - Just a winner who knows how to play basketball at both ends of the court
3) KG - Dirk almost took this slot, but KG plays incredible D and is an underrated passer

C
1) Dream - Greatest skill set I have ever seen in a big man.. And his D changed games and the way teams could play
2) Shaq - in his prime he was an unstoppable force off the block.. He wasnt a great defender but a good rebounder
3) Patrick Ewing - shocker! But in his prime was a very complete player on O and D.. His true prime was a little too short tho..


Honorable mentions Wilkins, Payton, Zeke, Dirk, Barkley, D12...
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Barry and Doctor J are both better than Lebron.
 
C

cuevas. PhD.

Member
Liquidsnake said:
1) Kobe-He eclipsed Jordan, and made everyone forget who #23 was.
2) Magic/Larry
3) Kareem
4) Jerry West
5) Micheal Jordan- I have long believed that one or two of his rings were handed to him by Stern as payback for a debt, I don't want to get into what I have heard.
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Big o would be #1, making Jordan 6
 
I

ItWasMeantToBe19

Banned
Dirk is pretty awesome and underrated though. He draws so much defensive attention and provides so much floor spacing that he's even better than his (really great) stats.
 
K

kevo_huevo

Member
Black Mamba said:
Dirk isn't bad at defender, anymore. It used to be the case, but i thought he turned the corner in 2006 when he became passable and since then he's been average. A good defensive rebounder and someone who generally stays between his man and the basket.

Dirk's improvement on D was pretty significant considering how bad he used to be.
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thank you. to keep saying dirk is a turrible defender, you had to have not watched him play over the last 6-7 years. he's gone from straight lol to average on d, which is also a lot to ask of him considering his usage on the offensive end.
 
C

CoffeeJanitor

Member
ClovingSteam said:
Would Wilt avg 50? No. Would he be better than Dwight? Id argue he'd be Shaq with better defense. Would Russell avg 22 rebounds? Probably not but hed be te best rebounder and defender in the league and would be the anchor for a team. Kobe and MJ and Magic all faced inferior talent since they were so far above their competition. Its no different with Wilt, Kareem, Oscar, Russell.
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I know this was a page ago but I agree with this...Can't believe that argument is/was actually happening

And yeah Babe Ruth is one of the best of all time
 
G

giri

Member
Blackace said:
There are only two players to avg over 30 ppg there entire career.. TD isn't one of them..
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Malone had one of the top 5 PG's of all time, and won... nothing.

TD had... popovich, and won it 3 times. I mean, he had no other player on his team that will go down as "top 5 of all time" at their position.

TD > Malone.

Malone might be the single best regular season player ever, LBJ is right up there in contention with that.
 
S

SephCast

Brotherhood of Shipley's
jordan0386 said:
Karma. Get coaches fired, bad shit eventually happens to you.
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Kuester was a shit coach anyways. Lawrence Frank is actually starting to build a decent program over there. He got Rodney Stuckey to not be an idiot and Greg Monroe is beasting.
 
E

Emwitus

Member
Chris bosh on Kobe;

When he hit that 3 against Spain and just posed there -- it was such a tense moment. It was a crazy shot. I wasn't expecting him to shoot, and when he did it took my breath away. That and people's reaction to him in China. That was crazy.
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Eh. lol
 
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