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[Blackace]

I'm with Ryu here. Watching players on ESPN classic and shit doesn't count when you have to watch a player a hell of a lot more to come to a conclusion about his place in history. and his point about inferior competition isn't anything to scoff at because it's a fact. he isn't arguing "because you didn't watch him play you can't say that" but you can't rank a dude solely on stats and shit


and yeah I get tired of people placing Russell on some legendary list. his accomplishments are undeniable and because of the advancement of medicine you can't compare him to modern day athletes but let's not ignore the fact that the nba was much smaller and way less competitive especially with the stacked squads

Actually I used to believe the NBA was much shorter but the average height was 6'5" and now it is 6'7

But yeah there werent as many huge guys!

 

[ryutaro's mama]

Am I going to say flat out that he wouldn't? No I won't say that. Will I say that it's highly unlikely? Yes. But again, I'm also not going to argue that players of today could do what Russell and the Celtics did if they played back then. We see how close Wilt came to that. We saw how close Jerry West and Baylor came to it..

I'm gonna flat out say it. HELL NO. There are so many factors at play now that wouldn't allow for stacked teams like that to happen again.

80s Lakers and Celtics were the last of their kind (in regards to stacked teams staying together for a decade...and guess what? Neither team won 11 chips in 13 years (in this watered down NBA with all these teams as you called it)...hell, they didn't ever win 11 chips in that timeframe COMBINED.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Russell's Boston teams had like 5 of the top 15 players in the league. the Russell idolizing has gotten out of whack.

Wilt had some shitty teammates, too. Played with like 2-3 Fishers at a time.

It was simply a different era. You can't compare. People didn't really know how to play basketball back then.



HOW WOULD SHAQ NOT WIN EVERY YEAR? WHO COULD DEFEND HIM!?

Shaq would have been the identical player of Wilt Chamberlain without that nice fadeway off the glass. Did Wilt win every year? I'm a Wilt homer but Wilt didn't exactly shine in the finals. Wilt had some very good teams too. He won two chips which is a great achievement but he didn't often play in the type of team set up that Russell did. Now, that is partially due to his coaches who continually asked him to be a different type of player (Scorer, assist man, team first, etc). When he was asked to give up some of his scoring in 67, his team won 67 and the chip. He was a man amongst boys in the same way that Shaq was when he played.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

I'm gonna flat out say it. HELL NO. There are so many factors at play now that wouldn't allow for stacked teams like that to happen again.

80s Lakers and Celtics were the last of their kind (in regards to stacked teams staying together for a decade...and guess what? Neither team won 11 chips in 13 years (in this watered down NBA with all these teams as you called it)...hell, they didn't ever win 11 chips in that timeframe COMBINED.

Did the Bulls win 6 chips in a row when MJ played a full season? Yep. Had he not gone to play baseball for two seasons, who knows what could've happened. We could very well have seen another 8 peat. So yea. No team in the 80s were able to go to three straight NBA finals twice. Are you going to argue that the 1990s were watered down and that MJ's achievements aren't as impressive due to the fact that his teams were able to dominate in the way they did? Or is it evidence of just how great he and Pippen were?

 

[Blackace]

Solid list but leaving off Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is unforgivable.

I didn't see him play so much in his prime

 

[Black Mamba]

Shaq would have been the identical player of Wilt Chamberlain without that nice fadeway off the glass. Did Wilt win every year? I'm a Wilt homer but Wilt didn't exactly shine in the finals. Wilt had some very good teams too. He won two chips which is a great achievement but he didn't often play in the type of team set up that Russell did. Now, that is partially due to his coaches who continually asked him to be a different type of player (Scorer, assist man, team first, etc). When he was asked to give up some of his scoring in 67, his team won 67 and the chip. He was a man amongst boys in the same way that Shaq was when he played.

Ever seen footage of Wilt? Wilt was still much more slow and prodding compared to today's style. Shaq was a type of beast no one could handle back then.

But if you put Wilt on Russell's team, they don't lose those 2 titles...

Did the Bulls win 6 chips in a row when MJ played a full season? Yep. Had he not gone to play baseball for two seasons, who knows what could've happened. We could very well have seen another 8 peat. So yea. Are you going to argue that the 1990s were watered down and that MJ's achievements aren't as impressive due to the fact that his teams were able to dominate in the way they did? Or is it evidence of just how great he and Pippen were?

I very much doubt this.

 

[Khalifa Jayy]

I didn't see him play so much in his prime

Lol wtf? The guy has accolades on accolades... you don't have to watch him play to know he's better than Pat Ewing. C'mon son...

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Ever seen footage of Wilt? Wilt was still much more slow and prodding compared to today's style. Shaq was a type of beast no one could handle back then.

But if you put Wilt on Russell's team, they don't lose those 2 titles...




I very much doubt this.

You can doubt all you want but the fact remains that MJ and his Bulls did something that neither Magics Lakers nor Birds Celtics did in the 1980s. Perhaps we should discount that achievement.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

Did the Bulls win 6 chips in a row when MJ played a full season? Yep. Had he not gone to play baseball for two seasons, who knows what could've happened. We could very well have seen another 8 peat. So yea. Are you going to argue that the 1990s were watered down and that MJ should have achievements lowered in terms of being impressive due to the fact that his teams were able to dominate in the way they did?

Right, because the rigors of playing 8 straight seasons, deep into June, might not have had a effect...(injuries, fatigue, etc.)but you're right we don't know what would have happened.

What we DO know is that you are trying to answer my 11 in 13 years question with a Jordan MIGHT HAVE been able to do 8 in 8 hypothetical.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Right, because the rigors of playing 8 straight seasons, deep into June, might not have had a effect...(injuries, fatigue, etc.)but you're right we don't know what would have happened.

What we DO know is that you are trying to answer my 11 in 13 years question with a Jordan MIGHT HAVE been able to do 8 in 8 hypothetical.

Your point is that no team in the 1980s with how deep they were replicated what Russell's teams did in the 1960's and you're right, but neither were they able to match what the Bulls of the 1990's accomplished. So again, do we discount MJ and the Bulls success because no team in the 1970s, 1980s, nor 2000s were able to match their success?

 

[Blackace]

Oddly enough... Guys like Shaq and LBJ most likely would foul out of every game in the old NBA...

How many travels would they get called for?

 

[Blackace]

Lol wtf? The guy has accolades on accolades... you don't have to watch him play to know he's better than Pat Ewing. C'mon son...

Uh..l stated clearly only guys I watched son..

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Oddly enough... Guys like Shaq and LBJ most likely would foul out of every game in the old NBA...

How many travels would they get called for?

Funny enough, Wilt never fouled out of any game (oddly people use this against him).

 

[Blackace]

Funny enough, Wilt never fouled out of any game (oddly people use this against him).

Shaq and his clear out, and lifting his pivot foot would bring his doom...

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Shaq and his clear out, and lifting his pivot foot would bring his doom...

God what I would pay to see prime Shaq against a prime modern Wilt.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

Your point is that no team in the 1980s with how deep they were replicated what Russell's teams did in the 1960's and you're right, but neither were they able to match what the Bulls of the 1990's accomplished. So again, do we discount MJ and the Bulls success because no team in the 1970s, 1980s, nor 2000s were able to match their success?

I never said any of that.

I said 11 in 13 is NEVER happening again and you tried introducing that Jordan argument. Even if he does, in your hypothetical, win 8/8, it's STILL 3 short of the Russell feat. Would it be amazing? Absolutely, but again, you factor in deep playing into the playoffs for 8 years man...it takes a toll. Ask Magic. He got there 9 times. I'm not convinced Jordan's body would have held up.

People forget that, while Jordan was playing beisbol, it's a different sport. There's a lot of resting in between at bats and whatnot and not nearly as exerting. His time away allowed his body the opportunity to recharge and when he came back, he had his second wind.

Playing 8 years into June wouldn't have provided that same dynamic.

 

[LuchaShaq]

Oddly enough... Guys like Shaq and LBJ most likely would foul out of every game in the old NBA...

How many travels would they get called for?

On the travel thing, that's a product of the game itself. They aren't idiots, if the refs are giving them an extra step? They will take it when they have to. If the refs were somehow 100% perfect and did want to be strict on travels? They would stop 95% of it after a handful of games. It's the same thing as flopping. If flopping wasn't rewarded? People wouldn't do it as often.

As for the fouls, I'd say it's just as likely every pf/c on the other team would foul out before it became an issue.

People act like Shaq just dipped the shoulder and dunked, when his baseline jump hook, and ridiculously fast post spins were the deadly counters to guys getting ready for the physicality of his game. I can't think of a player that uses that same move that is even remotely as quick with it which is insane considering the man was 330-345 in his prime (fuck what the man was listed at).

 

[ph33nix]

Shaq and his clear out, and lifting his pivot foot would bring his doom...

I still wonder what today would be like if Shaq's punch connected with Brad Miller's head

 

[Blackace]

On the travel thing, that's a product of the game itself. They aren't idiot, if the refs are giving them an extra step? They will take it when they have to. If the refs were somehow 100% perfect and did want to be strict on travels? They would stop 95% of it after a handful of games.

As for the fouls, I'd say it's just as likely every pf/c on the other team would foul out before it became an issue.

People act like Shaq just dipped the shoulder and dunked, when his baseline jump hook, and ridiculously fast post spins were the deadly counters to guys getting ready for the physicality of his game.

Shaq dipped his shoulder a lot... And his post spins would have been travels..

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

I never said any of that.

I said 11 in 13 is NEVER happening again and you tried introducing that Jordan argument. Even if he does, in your hypothetical, win 8/8, it's STILL 3 short of the Russell feat. Would it be amazing? Absolutely, but again, you factor in deep playing into the playoffs for 8 years man...it takes a toll. Ask Magic. He got there 9 times. I'm not convinced Jordan's body would have held up.

People forget that, while Jordan was playing beisbol, it's a different sport. There's a lot of resting in between at bats and whatnot and not nearly as exerting. His time away allowed his body the opportunity to recharge and when he came back, he had his second wind.

Playing 8 years into June wouldn't have provided that same dynamic.

So I don't misinterpret what you are saying, are you arguing at all that the accomplishments of the 60s by players are somehow less impressive or significant due to the generation they competed in?

 

[Blackace]

I still wonder what today would be like if Shaq's punch connected with Brad Miller's head

Shaq might be getting out of prison for manslaughter now...

 

[LuchaShaq]

Shaq dipped his shoulder a lot... And his post spins would have been travels..

You don't think he wouldn't just change up his footwork if it was called every time? If you can travel and get away with it towards your own advantage you'd be stupid not to. Traveling isn't vital to his/lbjs game that's a ridiculous idea. Shaq wasn't great because he had quick feet and a great series of counter post moves for a big man. Shaq wasn't great because he was an imposing physical force on the court. It was the combination of the two that made him so great. That's why the issues/arthritis in his big toes hurt him more than fucked up knees/shoulders/elbows. Without the speedy precise footwork his strength was predictable and not nearly as effective. Every time he fucked up those damn toes he'd have a shit game with multiple charges. Why? Because opponents knew he didn't have it that night so all they had to do was body up and hope they get a charge call before the foul call of them hacking on his arms.

 

[ph33nix]

So I don't misinterpret what you are saying, are you arguing at all that the accomplishments of the 60s by players are somehow less impressive or significant due to the generation they competed in?

Actually yes this is what I was arguing

and what I think Ryu is saying too. but I'll let him speak for himself

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Actually yes this is what I was arguing

And that is why I bring up the Bulls in 1991-1998. The Bulls did what neither Magics Lakers nor Birds Celtics did. The Bulls did what no team outside of Russells Celtics have done. I guess that means that we should discount how impressive the achievement of 6 chips in 8 years is. If you want to use it to show how amazing the teams were because it hasn't been done for 20 years before nor since, I don't see why it should be any different with Russell and the Celtics.

 

[Blackace]

You don't think he wouldn't just change up his footwork if it was called every time? If you can travel and get away with it towards your own advantage you'd be stupid not to. Traveling isn't vital to his/lbjs game that's a ridiculous idea.

What? Both LBJ and him traveled a lot, and bowled their way to the cup.

 

[AirBrian]

I still wonder what today would be like if Shaq's punch connected with Brad Miller's head

I imagine a lot like that gif of the guy's head exploding.

 

[darkside31337]

It's not travelling. It's a crab dribble.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

So I don't misinterpret what you are saying, are you arguing at all that the accomplishments of the 60s by players are somehow less impressive or significant due to the generation they competed in?

I'm saying that when you factor in

1) less teams
2) less physical/skill equals
3) No FA (HOFer stockpiling)
4) No salary capping
5) shorter seasons/playoffs

it gave the teams of the past a unique advantage that teams of today (while the strength and athleticism has changed) would never enjoy under these restrictions.

You simply don't win 11 chips in 13 years when the competition in the league is equal. You just don't. Russell was great but that is helped by the fact that (outside Wilt) there was no one sniffing his level. The 80s Celtics and Lakers were equals. The 60s Lakers and Celtics were not.

Things are a lot more equal (league wide) today and the contemporary CBA rules severely affect that.

 

[ph33nix]

And that is why I bring up the Bulls in 1991-1998. The Bulls did what neither Magics Lakers nor Birds Celtics did. The Bulls did what no team outside of Russells Celtics have done. I guess that means that we should discount how impressive the achievement of 6 chips in 8 years is. If you want to use it to show how amazing the teams were because it hasn't been done for 20 years before nor since, I don't see why it should be any different with Russell and the Celtics.

Actually I'm not discounting those rings at all; that's why Jordan is the undisputed GOAT to so many and Russell isn't. Jordan played in a bigger and more physical league and still dominated the way he did

So it sucks for Russell but when you're beating up on other teams for a decade where the NBA isn't bigger than like 14 teams and you have all the best players on your team, then yes individually I'm not going to see him better than a dude like Hakeem or Shaq

Shaq could have more than 4 rings if more fucks were given. and it's still a tragic joke how that guy has 1 MVP only

I imagine a lot like that gif of the guy's head exploding.

Well hey there dude. Where you been?

 

[Branduil]

PG

1- Magic
2- Stockton
3- Kidd

SG

1- Jordan
2- Kobe
3- Oscar

SF

1- Bird
2- Pippin
3- Gervin

PF

1- Duncan
2- Dirk
3- Malone

C

1- Hakeem
2- Kareem
3- Shaq

That's my list and I'm sticking to it.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

I'm saying that when you factor in

1) less teams
2) less physical/skill equals
3) No FA (HOFer stockpiling)
4) No salary capping
5) shorter seasons/playoffs

it gave the teams of the past a unique advantage that teams of today (while the strength and athleticism has changed) would never enjoy under these restrictions.

You simply don't win 11 chips in 13 years when the competition in the league is equal. You just don't. Russell was great but that is helped by the fact that (outside Wilt) there was no one sniffing his level. The 80s Celtics and Lakers were equals. The 60s Lakers and Celtics were not.

Things are a lot more equal (league wide) today and the contemporary CBA rules severely affect that.

But this is where we differ. The very fact that MJ and the Bulls won 6 out of 8 shows that nobody was on their level. The Bulls ran off two 3-peats in 8 years. During that time they were pretty much untouchable. There simply wasn't any true competition for them. You don't win 72 games in a season and have competition. You don't win 6 out of 8 and have competition. It's no different than with the Celtics of the 1960s. You won't win 11 out of 13 and have competition. Their amazing success dictates that there wasn't any true competition.

The other teams had to play by the same rules. The same types of limits. The difference is that they didn't have what the Celtics had, just like the other teams in the 1990s didn't have what the Bulls did. I'm not going to hold a teams success against them. EVER. It would be one thing if the Celtics literally played by different rules than others but they didn't.

Actually I'm not discounting those rings at all; that's why Jordan is the undisputed GOAT to so many and Russell isn't. Jordan played in a bigger and more physical league and still dominated the way he did

So it sucks for Russell but when you're beating up on other teams for a decade where the NBA isn't bigger than like 14 teams and you have all the best players on your team, then yes individually I'm not going to see him better than a dude like Hakeem or Shaq



Well hey there dude. Where you been?

Read above.

 

[LuchaShaq]

What? Both LBJ and him traveled a lot, and bowled their way to the cup.

Yes but it's still not an important piece of their games. There isn't a single player who frequently handles the ball/shoots alot in the past decade who didn't have multiple uncalled travels basically every game. Vince, Kobe, Wade, Tmac, Al jefferson, duncan, Iverson, nash, Dirk, Durant, Zbo, Dwight. It's not fair to act like lbj/shaq were special cases when the rule has essentially been 2.5 steps 90% of the time and 3+ steps 10% of the time for 10+ years. If refs were more lenient with travel calls in the 80s you and I both know Magic/Bird etc would have used that shit constantly as well.

If either Shaq/lbj had a season with refs that called all travels super strict? After 2 weeks of games with extra turnovers getting used to the changes they would both be 99% back to normal in on court production.

 

[AirBrian]

Actually I'm not discounting those rings at all; that's why Jordan is the undisputed GOAT to so many and Russell isn't. Jordan played in a bigger and more physical league and still dominated the way he did

So it sucks for Russell but when you're beating up on other teams for a decade where the NBA isn't bigger than like 14 teams and you have all the best players on your team, then yes individually I'm not going to see him better than a dude like Hakeem or Shaq

Shaq could have more than 4 rings if more fucks were given. and it's still a tragic joke how that guy has 1 MVP only



Well hey there dude. Where you been?

Asia for the last 3 weeks. Apparently there was an NCAA tournament? I got home just in time for the final four and championship.

Also, there's all these Community tabs now...that's different.

 

[Branduil]

Dirk.... ugh

He's an outstanding player - but you can't be a top PF ever and not even be mentioned or thought of as a top 20 rebounder or defender.

Its like saying AI was a top 5 SG.

Comparing Dirk to Iverson... smh.

 

[Blackface]

FIBA asia players have as much skill as the garbage Wilt was facing.

 

[Blackface]

PG

1- Magic
2- Stockton
3- Kidd

SG

1- Jordan
2- Kobe
3- Oscar

SF

1- Bird
2- Pippin
3- Gervin

PF

1- Duncan
2- Dirk
3- Malone

C

1- Hakeem
2- Kareem
3- Shaq

That's my list and I'm sticking to it.

Dirk isn't a top 3 PF.

You can't be a top 3 PF when you suck at defense and can't average a double double.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

FIBA asia players have as much skill as the garbage Wilt was facing.

Realizing that its you making that statement nullifies any need for me to offer an actual response.

 

[Blackace]

Yes but it's still not an important piece of their games. There isn't a single player who frequently handles the ball/shoots alot in the past decade who didn't have multiple uncalled travels basically every game. Vince, Kobe, Wade, Tmac, Al jefferson, duncan, Iverson, nash, Dirk, Durant, Zbo, Dwight. It's not fair to act like lbj/shaq were special cases when the rule has essentially been 2.5 steps 90% of the time and 3+ steps 10% of the time for 10+ years. If refs were more lenient with travel calls in the 80s you and I both know Magic/Bird etc would have used that shit constantly as well.

If either Shaq/lbj had a season with refs that called all travels super strict? After 2 weeks of games with extra turnovers getting used to the changes they would both be 99% back to normal in on court production.

I think Shaq would adjust better than LBJ

And players like LBJ have been called like that forever... You see how he looks when he does get called for a charge or travel

 

[Branduil]

Winning a title does add some weight to Dirk's legacy... I still think his teams were way more talented than any team the Jazz ever had...

When did Dirk play with a top-3 all-time PG while they were in their prime?

Dirk isn't a top 3 PF.

You can't be a top 3 PF when you suck at defense and can't average a double double.

Bosh isn't even on your team any more. There's no reason to be so salty.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

But this is where we differ. The very fact that MJ and the Bulls won 6 out of 8 shows that nobody was on their level. The Bulls ran off two 3-peats in 8 years. During that time they were pretty much untouchable. There simply wasn't any true competition for them. You don't win 72 games in a season and have competition. You don't win 6 out of 8 and have competition. It's no different than with the Celtics of the 1960s. You won't win 11 out of 13 and have competition. Their amazing success dictates that there wasn't any true competition.

Dude, are you really trying to compare 6 in 8 to 11 in 13? One when Russell was a fucking player/coach?

The Lakers won 5 in 8 years too, playing stiffer competition too. Does that somehow compare to 11 in 13 too?

You keep trying to insert the Jordan argument where it doesn't belong. Did I say that no one will win 6 in 8 again? No, I never did. I said, 11 in 13 is NEVER happening again and I told you why.

 

[Blackace]

When did Dirk play with a top-3 all-time PG while they were in their prime?

Never...but Dirk still isn't as good as Malone..

 

[Branduil]

Dirk is hot trash on D. He has gotten a bit better, but not much

So wrong. I'm not sure you even watch Dirk play.

 

[Blackace]

So wrong. I'm not sure you even watch Dirk play.

Pretty much everyone but you agrees that Dirk is hot trash on D.. So.. Yeah..

 

[Blackface]

When did Dirk play with a top-3 all-time PG while they were in their prime?

What? Did you read your own list. You have Kidd as the number 3 PG of all time.

Before that he played with Nash, who many could arguing is the fourth best of all time.

Dirk is a great player. However he sucked at defense for a decade, and CAN'T rebound.

I am not even discrediting him for choking for 10 years. Sometimes other teams are just better.

Simply skill wise, he is not top 3, let alone 2.

 

[ph33nix]

But this is where we differ. The very fact that MJ and the Bulls won 6 out of 8 shows that nobody was on their level. The Bulls ran off two 3-peats in 8 years. During that time they were pretty much untouchable. There simply wasn't any true competition for them. You don't win 72 games in a season and have competition. You don't win 6 out of 8 and have competition. It's no different than with the Celtics of the 1960s. You won't win 11 out of 13 and have competition. Their amazing success dictates that there wasn't any true competition.

The other teams had to play by the same rules. The same types of limits. The difference is that they didn't have what the Celtics had, just like the other teams in the 1990s didn't have what the Bulls did. I'm not going to hold a teams success against them. EVER. It would be one thing if the Celtics literally played by different rules than others but they didn't.

I don't disagree with anything you're saying but dominating a 8-14 team league vs a 30 team league is a pretty huge difference that shouldn't be taken lightly

 

[Branduil]

Dirk won a title with his second option being Jason "JET" Terry. End of story. Top 5 PF of all time.

Truth.

Pretty much everyone but you agrees that Dirk is hot trash on D.. So.. Yeah..

The ignorant RealGM crowd, sure. The people who actually watch him? Nope. Dirk is a competent man defender and a solid team defender. It's like some people think if you're not all-NBA on defense you're trash.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Dude, are you really trying to compare 6 in 8 to 11 in 13? One when Russell was a fucking player/coach?

The Laker won 5 in 8 years too, playing stiffer competition too. Does that somehow compare to 11 in 13 too?

You keep trying to insert the Jordan argument where it doesn't belong. Did I say that no one will win 6 in 8 again? No, I never did. I said, 11 in 13 is NEVER happening again and I told you why.

Actually, Russell won two as player coach but thats besides the point.

The Jordan argument does belong. We're discussing competition. Success dictates just what type of competition there is or isn't. A team that wins 6 straight championships when MJ is playing a full season doesn't have any competition. Sorry. And they didn't have any competition because of how great they were, not because of how poor the other teams were.

Also, you never answered my question of whether you are downplaying the success that players and teams had in the 1960s due to the circumstances. If you're not then we pretty much agree. If you do think the decade and circumstances dictate that said achievements aren't as impressive as those made since that is where we disagree.

I don't disagree with anything you're saying but dominating a 8-14 team league vs a 30 team league is a pretty huge difference that shouldn't be taken lightly

I actually agree, though for other reasons. We know that adding more teams spreads the talent thin. It's just the way it is. Even Ryu's argument seems to support this point. It's much more difficult to have a cast of HOF's when you have 29 other franchises that can pay them. The fact that the Celtics were able to dominate like they did when every team had a star or two is what is impressive.

 

[Blackace]

What? Did you read your own list. You have Kidd as the number 3 PG of all time.

Before that he played with Nash, who many could arguing is the fourth best of all time.

Dirk is a great player. However he sucked at defense for a decade, and CAN'T rebound.

I am not even discrediting him for choking for 10 years. Sometimes other teams are just better.

Simply skill wise, he is not top 3, let alone 2.

There are few times I agree with Blackface

 

[Branduil]

I bet a lot of guys who sucked at rebounding wished they could average 10.4 rpg in the playoffs.

It's funny to see Blackace agreeing with trax's post where he basically admits he can't read.

 

[Blackace]

.
The ignorant RealGM crowd, sure. The people who actually watch him? Nope. Dirk is a competent man defender and a solid team defender. It's like some people think if you're not all-NBA on defense you're trash.

No one thinks that, but Dirk is horrible on D and has ALWAYS been...