Black Mamba
Member
Depth doesn't matter. That said, you need 6 quality guys. miami has...4?
When most of us say depth, we mean the 7-9 guys. Miami doesn't even have a starting 5.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
2012 NBA Playoffs |OT3| If he dies, he dies *wink*
- Thread starter reilo
- Start date
- Status
Depth doesn't matter. That said, you need 6 quality guys. miami has...4?
When most of us say depth, we mean the 7-9 guys. Miami doesn't even have a starting 5.
16 & 0mg y
MorisUkunRasik
Member
Their "nondepth" guys haven't even been what we expected. Bosh has been hurt and Wade has been garbage on and off, Bron still screwing up late game sets. Chalmers has been consistently slightly above average.
Liquidsnake
Banned
He has an El Cholo in Santa Monica though.
Justin Timberlake
Member
Case in point.
What do you define as depth? When I say "depth doesn't matter" (and i rarely do) I mean you can win with 8-9 guys. You don't need 12. Miami doesn't have 8 guys.
There are teams that win with 8-9 guys (Lakers) and there are teams that win by playing 10-12 (Mavs)...but you absolutely can win with 8-9 guys.
Thunder rotation against the Spurs.
Durant/Westbrook/Safalosha/Ibaka/Perkins/Collison/Fisher/Harden - That's 8 guys. Sometimes they play Nazr.
Justin Timberlake
Member
Every player that is part of your playoff rotation (the guys you play, barring an epic blowout) matters
Its not a set number for every team
Syphon Filter
Member
I think okc wins. Only game spurs won convincingly was game 1.
Straightballin
Member
So all I hear is that Lebron makes the players around him so much better, but how so? No players have improved while playing with him, it seems as if the regress.
Ahhhh - We're discussing different things.
I agree with you
My point is, the Heat have less than 8 guys that should play in a CF or Finals game. That's a problem, and if the experiment continues, it will continue to be a problem. They're going to need Chalmers/Haslem/Anthony (only C)/Bosh/Bron/Wade healthy to win a chip. It's conceivable that one of those guys could be injured next May and June too
Justin Timberlake
Member
Oh.
ImperialConquest got banned
ImperialConquest got banned
LETS GO SPURS
TCBY, Duncan looked like shit last game until he turned it up late in the game. Dude needs to stop looking like a pussy cat and more like his old yeller that he was doing well with in the last series. Kawhi/Neal (sick?)/Green need to have a game. SJaxxx is awesome tho.
Beat the Thunder! Spurs lacked intensity to match the "must win" mode the thunder have been in since game 3. Gotta get desperate! Wheres the hunger!
TCBY, Duncan looked like shit last game until he turned it up late in the game. Dude needs to stop looking like a pussy cat and more like his old yeller that he was doing well with in the last series. Kawhi/Neal (sick?)/Green need to have a game. SJaxxx is awesome tho.
Beat the Thunder! Spurs lacked intensity to match the "must win" mode the thunder have been in since game 3. Gotta get desperate! Wheres the hunger!
Most teams that go deep or win, play 8 or 9 deep, minimum.
Depth matters.
You rarely ever see a team that is only 6 or 7 deep, win.
Gaf would have you believe other wise. The gaf'ism is, that you only need 7.
Ok than i definitely disagree with that.
You need at least 8 and more likely 9. You need 3 guys to cover PF/C and 5 guys to cover PG/SG/SF at a minimum
Justin Timberlake
Member
8 is the absolute minimum, and with it you risk tiring out your superstars. 9-10 is ideal.
The argument gets ridiculous when people say guys that log 20+ minutes don't matter.
Happy to have exar on our side (even halfheartedly!) <3
Oh and Neal will be playing. He wasn't on the original flight to OKC cause he was sick but he took a later one. Hopefully he is healthy enough to be effective because he gives so much less of a fuck than our other role players (minus JAX, Kawhi) that I know he'll at least shoot with confidence with the game on the line.
The argument gets ridiculous when people say guys that log 20+ minutes don't matter.
Happy to have exar on our side (even halfheartedly!) <3
Oh and Neal will be playing. He wasn't on the original flight to OKC cause he was sick but he took a later one. Hopefully he is healthy enough to be effective because he gives so much less of a fuck than our other role players (minus JAX, Kawhi) that I know he'll at least shoot with confidence with the game on the line.
MorisUkunRasik
Member
Setting a number on how many players you need seems arbitrary and ultimately meaningless.
It leads to how many minutes your 8 or 9 guys get and how their time on the floor is split and with whom to play them, you should realize at that point every team is different at this level and the recipe for success is varied.
/opiate jr.
I'm more comfortable with "you need 8 or so guys to make the playoffs or 3 or so HOFers" but thats a no brainer.
It leads to how many minutes your 8 or 9 guys get and how their time on the floor is split and with whom to play them, you should realize at that point every team is different at this level and the recipe for success is varied.
/opiate jr.
I'm more comfortable with "you need 8 or so guys to make the playoffs or 3 or so HOFers" but thats a no brainer.
Herpes Reasons
Banned
Circa 2000 wcf.
3 stars>15 great players
3 stars>15 great players
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
Oh No Supreme1! R.I.P
The argument against Depth is when teams who have a great bench talk about how they'll win because they have a deeper bench.
I remember this being the case with the Suns/Lakers series in the WCF 2 years ago. The point was, LA didn't need to match the depth of the Suns, LA just needed their top 9 to be better than the Suns top 9.
Usually when someone argues that depth doesn't matter in the playoffs, they're countering an argument that states, in effect, "We have a deeper bench, that's a huge advantage"
And if we're discussing the 10-12th guys on the bench, I think the "depth doesn't matter" argument comes into play.
In the case of this most recent Lakers/Thunder series. LA's starters always out played the Thunder starters, but LA's bench 6-9 always got outplayed...that can't work.
The craziness of the early decade dynasty was that that LA team was the only Dynasty I can think of that only had 2 legit HOF players. Every other dynasty has at least 3. It's a testament to how great the two players were, that they pulled that off...
Then of course there is Hakeem...and that's just other dimension type shit.
I remember this being the case with the Suns/Lakers series in the WCF 2 years ago. The point was, LA didn't need to match the depth of the Suns, LA just needed their top 9 to be better than the Suns top 9.
Usually when someone argues that depth doesn't matter in the playoffs, they're countering an argument that states, in effect, "We have a deeper bench, that's a huge advantage"
And if we're discussing the 10-12th guys on the bench, I think the "depth doesn't matter" argument comes into play.
In the case of this most recent Lakers/Thunder series. LA's starters always out played the Thunder starters, but LA's bench 6-9 always got outplayed...that can't work.
The craziness of the early decade dynasty was that that LA team was the only Dynasty I can think of that only had 2 legit HOF players. Every other dynasty has at least 3. It's a testament to how great the two players were, that they pulled that off...
Then of course there is Hakeem...and that's just other dimension type shit.
MorisUkunRasik
Member
You need to hit the right note between depth and top heavyness. Miami looked like they got it just right with
Bosh/Wade/Bron
Haslem/Battier/Miller/Chalmers
Which is why them failing is so lovely.
Bosh/Wade/Bron
Haslem/Battier/Miller/Chalmers
Which is why them failing is so lovely.
Black Mamba
Member
Boston has won this series with their top 6 players. Rondo-Pierce-Allen-KG-Bass-Pietrus. Everyone else hasn't mattered. They did not win because of Steisma/Daniels/Dooling. None of those players even played 10 minutes.
How is your team's depth working out for you? Somehow the shallow Thunder are up 3-2 despite only having 6 good players.
It can be 7 in certain circumstances, but the top 6 are all that really matter. The 7th and 8th man in the rotation are completely interchangeable with 100 other players at that position.
Except you see the opposite for most teams. Lakers never had more than 6. It was Fisher-Kobe-Ariza/Artest-Odom-Pau-Bynum. Shannon, Farmar, Vujacic, etc were never the difference between winning and losing a series. They didn't matter.
Boston won with 6 in 2008 (starting 5 + posey). The '07 Spurs also won with 6 (Tp,Manu, Bowen, Ginobili, TD, Horry, Finley). No one else mattered.
Yes, you play 8 guys in a rotation, but that 8th guy is merely there for the star to rest a bit. He is completely replaceable and can never swing a series.
It's why Miami made the Finals last season. They played their stars 40 mpg. Chicago, with the best depth in the league, couldn't overcome that. They were really deep. We're seeing the same thing with the Spurs. Which is why Pop is hardly playing Bonner/Splitter/Blair anymore, even. It's basically their starting 5 + Jackson. The mavs bucked the trend a little because they had only 1 star. But for them, Dirk-Tyson-Terry-Kidd-Marion-Barrea was their main 6 and Stevenson wasn't terrible and helped. But Cardinal didn't matter. Peja wasn't even used int he finals.
The lakers would have won without Farmar. The Spurs would have won without Elson. Etc
Black Mamba
Member
The Mavs used 7. And they got really lucky 2 of them kind of hit hot streaks at the right time.
Again, 9 guys played, but 2 did not matter. Ever. They'd have still won the title without Cardinal. Same with Hayward. As I said above, Dallas was a bit unique in that they kind of interchanged Stevenson/Peja depending on the series.
But if you go back through the last 12 champion teams or whatever, you'll see the 7-9 guys play very little and were all interchangeable with 100 other players at their spot which would have made no difference.
Your top 6 (with occasional 7) wins you titles.
Justin Timberlake
Member
Homie is literally (rip duki) trying to sit here and tell me Oberto didn't matter for the 07 Spurs and expects a serious response.
lol
lol
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
Ehh, Haywood played pretty good last year in the playoffs.
MiamiWesker
Member
Today Miami was in full meltdown mode.The radio was insane with angry people everywhere. Some hosts trying to stay positive, others already saying it is over. Knicks fans came out of their roach holes to infect the airways. Wilbon was on Lebatard's show outright calling us Heat fans "stupid".
I will be rooting for the Spurs since the Heat and Spurs are strangely connected this conference finals.
I will be rooting for the Spurs since the Heat and Spurs are strangely connected this conference finals.
MorisUkunRasik
Member
I think he's arguing that the end of the rotation guys can be interchanged with most other end of rotation guys, which is pretty presumptuous in its assumption.
Uhhh
Haywood was fundamental in allowing Tyson to be aggressive on defense.
He was huge for the mavs.
Not worth his contract, but that's just re-writing hsitory.
I fundamentally disagree with black pony, but don't give enough fucks to write essays about it.
Justin Timberlake
Member
Which is pretty comical because Fab fucking started for us, and was a core piece of the puzzle.
...
But besides, all that argues is that end of bench guys don't matter much, not that they don't matter at all. If your 7-9 guys shoot 0-30 in a series, that matters. Not as much as if your top 3 shoot 0-90, but it still matters.
Duh
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
I wish I could be there to taste those sweet tears.
CoffeeJanitor
Member
Pikmin 3 thread is full of people who are hating on Pikmin 3
what is the world coming to
what is the world coming to
It's silly. They win one game, and all momentum is back with them, and they become the obvious favorite again. All they have to do is let Bosh play.
Black Mamba
Member
Haywood allowed Tyson to be aggressive, how? They weren't on the court together.
Haywood only played in THREE nba finals games. He logged 14, 8 and 3 minutes.
This, i'd agree with.
The declarative that depth doesn't matter though, is just a fallacy.
Black Mamba
Member
Check my correction. I meant Elson, not Oberto. Was a mistake on my part. Both first names start with F so I confused 'em.
My point is you don't win or lose a series because of what your 8th man who plays 6 minutes a game in the Finals. Those guys don't matter.
it matters in the sense that you need 1 or 2 NBA quality players out there for a few minutes. But it doesn't matter in the sense that, If the Lakers had another crappy PG instead of Jordan Farmar, they wouldn't win the title. Or the same with Elson for the Spurs.
Justin Timberlake
Member
Even 1 minute matters in a playoff game (except garbage time)
What the 7-9 guys do in their 10-20 mins stint matters and is part of winning a championship
This is so fundamentally obvious that its tough to discuss.
Basically, this.
You said only 6 matter. You didn't include Fab in your 6. So who are the 07 Spurs' 6 if you now want to include Fab?
What the 7-9 guys do in their 10-20 mins stint matters and is part of winning a championship
This is so fundamentally obvious that its tough to discuss.
Basically, this.
You said only 6 matter. You didn't include Fab in your 6. So who are the 07 Spurs' 6 if you now want to include Fab?
Yeah, and many disagree with it.
Vestal
Junior Member
I guess we have a consensus amongst heat fans as far as tonight's game goes.. GO SPURS
In a perfect world though, at the end of the day Miami vs OKC would be a very entertaining series. Then again I wouldn't mind seeing Tim back in the Finals 1 last time.
Flip side, I DO NOT WANT THE CELTICS in the finals.. I can't stand Pierce.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Pikmin 3 and NSMB U will be 720p Lolz.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
720p? That's so 2000 and late.
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
What a crazy turnaround for the Spurs. Man I can't believe where we have ended up in this playoffs. I am convinced JT cursed this team.
Black Mamba
Member
He's not in the top 6, but in the top 7. I've said the top 6 or 7 matter, depending on the team, but the top 6 do the bulk of the work.
I'm not arguing them being out there doesn't matter in the sense that they matter as much as a traffic cone. I'm arguing that the 8th/9th guy isn't any different than any other playoff team's 8th/9th guy in terms of quality and cannot affect whether a team wins the title or not.
The Mavs win the title last year with any other scrap heap big if they didn't have Cardinal. Spurs the same without Elson. Lakers the same without Farmar. That's what I mean when I say they don't matter. If you remove Ariza or Bowen, that matters. Now every team's 4-6 guys are as good.
If you matter that means your presence can affect the outcome of the team winning a title. the 8/9 guys don't do that.
StickSoldier
Member
In the other series Haywood was really good for the Mavs. He allowed Tyson to play swarming defense without worrying about fouling because the Mavs had a capable backup to come in.
Black Mamba
Member
Tyson would have played less aggressive without Haywood? What a strange argument...
What explains Tyson playing great defense before haywood was a backup. Or playing superb D against Miami when Haywood wasn't playing?
Tyson played the D he played because that's how he plays. Has nothing to do with haywood. He just played the same all year for the Knicks with no one behind him.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked
- Locked