sf2fanatic
Member
Did they show the documentary of the Jordan draft yet?
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2014 NBA Finals |OT| Some dude guarantees they will win it all.
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thehypocrite
Member
Why are you so hang up about the past? Do you see the good old times as a bastion of purity? Of how the game ought to be played? What you want doesn't exist anymore. The past is gone, this is the NBA we have today, I happen to like it, I happen to think is pretty good, more people enjoy professional basketball than ever before. LeBron is a pretty great player, he ain't MJ though but that's good cause we already had MJ show us all that he could do on the court. Now James is showing us what he can do and that's great as well. This isn't an either or thing. This ain't a thing. This is entertainment if you aren't entertained don't suffer through it. I mean no disrespect to you either, you can continue to love the things you love, I'm just asking you to accept things.
DemurOnion
Banned
I'm really not a James hater. I don't like the whole decision thing but.... he is fine with me.
What I don't like is what started in the late 90s and festered into what we have now. The allegations, the refs, the money, the drugs, etc. I can enjoy parts of it, but I do find myself sadly leaning away from basketball the more I watch it.
And I guess because I was a good basketball player and played for years. It was my hobby. I just can't identify with it anymore and it hurts.
Horace grant was the pf for the Bulls. LeBron James is bigger than Horace grant and moves like Jordan. Kevin durant is almost 7ft and has a handle and jump shot. You have guys the size and length of 80s bigs defending and operating on the perimeter like guards of the past.
To run with the notion that the past was better, you have to explain how it's first possible for the sport to regress. That's probably what makes the idea so hard for me to indulge. It's pure vapor, no substance, because it can't be explained. PEACE.
DemurOnion
Banned
Pippen would guard Lebron not Horace Grant. You know the guy with all the 8 ALL NBA 1st defensive teams. The leader in steals in the playoffs? Lebron James in no way whatsoever has the graceful movement of Jordan lol. He moves like a running back.
Uhh, you ever heard of this dude called Magic Johnson?
Seems to me like you cannot deal with the fact this sport may have regressed in some ways. I'm not saying what you just said is false, the overall level of play is definitely different. I hesitate to say much better though. Individual skill in basketball I am sorry to say has not changed much in 15 years.
Point being you have guys who are longer, stronger and more athletic than the past. You have those physical tools combined with more advanced defensive schemes and there's just no reason to think the past was better. Not unless the knowledge of the past got destroyed in the great 1999 basketball library fire. PEACE.
It's nothing to do with getting heated and it's everything to do with the ridiculous cognitive dissonance, selective memory, circular logic and complete disregard for any fact displayed in said "discussions". "Men were men" "Defense was defense" "No one flopped" "This and that always benefits these guys more"
People complain about #HOTSPORTSTAKES in the media but I go on this board and the level of discussion is at exactly the same level. People don't want to talk about the game, they just want to go over a bunch of talking points like miniature Bill Simmons. Fuck rational fact based discussion, give me some talking points:
- Does LeBron have the CLUTCH GENE?
- Was the AC another MASTER STROKE from POP?
- Do the SPURS play the RIGHT WAY?
- Is Chis Bosh a gigantic VAGINA?
- Is Leonard MENTALLY SHOOK?
- How many points would Jordan have scored with today's PUSSY RULES?
All this bullshit is easy to argue for the masses because it requires no knowledge of any kind or thought of any kind. When all you need is an opinion anyone can join in on the fun.
Explain why and how it regressed. It's empty rhetoric, bruv. BTW, my post history will reveal that Magic is my favorite player of all time. My first playoff series watched was in 1984. So yeah, Magic was my dude. PEACE.
Edit: Kanguro, I agree completely. This is just the nature of sports debate though. Hyper emotional stuff. I don't mind the vitriol, as long as its just heat of the moment and not an ongoing thing.
DemurOnion
Banned
Tell us what you want and start a talking point or stop bitching about it. Me and this dude here are having a fine conversation.
DemurOnion
Banned
It isn't empty. Handcheck rules and fouls have more or less taken over the game. There have been legitimate books written about referee corruption in the late 90s and 00s. I didn't see many books about this in the 80s although I did see bad calls now and then. There were so me bad refs but imo not like today.
You should notice when I talk about regression it's mostly on fouls and such. And yes it IS a regression, just like some people find the rules in the NFL a regression from what they were. Fouls can change the entire makeup of the game, like they did in the paid for LA series. I've never seen so many foul shots in my life in some of those games.
I noticed the announcers today talking for over 5m about bad calls in this game. I didn't barely notice them talking about any bad calls nor did I notice but one or two in the Bulls vs Jazz game I watched. They also seemed WAY more in control of the ball and the pace was slower. At no point did I think oh man these guys are old and not big enough. Those two teams were quite big and formidable.
thehypocrite
Member
Then play/love the game for what it is. We have a group of very amazing players, they have flaws like all other players but they are also pretty great. Man, I just enjoy the game so much. I really appreciate seeing the Spurs with their timeless ball movement, the Heat and James getting it done with a mixture of talent and team ball, MJ bulls playing Vs the Pacers, the Jazz. The flopping is bad no doubt but the league does what it can to subdue it. The sideshow (money, refs, drugs, etc) matters little to me. I enjoy playing and watching basketball, I enjoyed before and I enjoy it today. All that matters is what happens on the court and that's done by the players.
I did. 60 posts back. Something actually related to the game. Not enough of a #HOTSPORTSTAKE.
And LMAO at your fine conversation. "It was just better, because I know."
DemurOnion
Banned
I've supplied my points. You however have supplied jack. SO go back to your page you left that one and bring it back here or IDK what is your point? I don't care.
When people start trying to say the game has evolved so much in 15 years and give no evidence how it evolved I have to question your motives. He has given some ideas on defense but in no way does he relate these ideas, or juxtapose them, with defenses of the 90s or offenses like the triangle offense that Phil used to win how many championships again?
He keeps using this false line of argumentative behavior which just repeats I am wrong because my rhetoric is empty. Yet he keeps supplying nothing of worth himself.
Let me give you an approximation: offenses in football that worked in the 80s still work today. Yes, they evolve slightly to fit the times but mostly these things are very much the same. The triangle offense still works in the NBA, as do many defenses that were mostly scripted in the 80s still work when played correctly. Basketball is an individual sport not just based on SIZE.
This guy's whole argument is basically that blah blah defense is so much more complex (it is not) and that we now have big guards that can dominate. Then he admits MJohn, one of the biggest and most talented guards to play the game, is somehow not relevant? He also doesn't answer me or give any argument to the fact Pippen could guard basically anyone and no one in this league has his defensive credentials but one or two. Same with Jordan and Rodman from the 95 team. Sorry, but unless I get some better comparisons and data I have nothing to go on but his word vs mine. And his is looking pretty shaky here.
What happened tonight was game went down to crunch time, Heat made the bigger plays at the end. It doesn't help the Heat have the superior individual players in this series who ended up making plays at the end. Spurs had their passing offense throw a big turnover from Ginobli. Their two biggest stars Parker and Duncan missed 4 consecutive free throws, and made no plays after to make up for it. Parker ran clock out on one of their last possessions. Let's see if they can recover. For the record game 1 was ripped out of Heat's hands by Danny Green. Have to consider if you want to depend on Green to win you a series.
See you guys game 3. These threads are the worst between games.
See you guys game 3. These threads are the worst between games.
Yeah, NBA-GAF is consistently among the worst discussion threads, which sucks. I'd love to hang out in here and discuss actual basketball.
What's crazy is that most of the hardcore NBA-GAF apparently offloaded to some satellite board. And it's *still* like this.
Byakuya769
Member
Don't talk about it, be about it. Want to discuss something, discuss it.
twinturbo2
butthurt Heat fan
Man, Miami really, really needed game 2. Glad they got it and it's a best-of-5 now. They just need to take two of three at the AAA, and they have this. All three would be nice, but I don't think that will come easy.
Not yet, tomorrow I believe on NBA TV. Looks good.
I feel like the Heat have been much more consistent about running Green off when they close out. Forcing Green to put the ball on the floor is going to be a better play every time with the way the dude has been shooting.
Overall I feel the 2013 Finals benefited Miami as a learning experience much more than they benefited the Spurs. Games have been much tighter in San Antonio than I would have expected.
DemurOnion
Banned
This is ridiculous. You are taking an essentialist viewpoint which is entirely dangerous. You are saying that everything evolves, and that everything which evolves is better. This is not true, nor can you prove it is true.
Which man is a better athlete than Michael Jordan out there? Lebron? Who else lol? No one. Stronger? Right. Because these guys look like a bunch of weak and useless players?
http://www.myentertainmentworld.ca/site/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Rodman-Pippen-Jordan-2.jpg
This isn't a weight lifting contest bud. And those guys are pretty damn buff. Have you ever seen these guys in real life? I'd say most of the guys on the Spurs team are smaller than the Bulls, with about the same athleticism in parts and worse in others. Spurs are old too. The Heat, NBA's best team right now, are historically not even that good. Your points here are leaning toward reaching.
When a point is reached Sports start evolving VERY slowly. Basketball has already reached this phase for many reasons. Others like Football and Baseball are reaching the limits of human chemistry, or banning that chemistry outright. All the stat whores in baseball already did all that stuff in the early part of the 21st century. Not much has evolved from the A's general program. They just all do it now. That was the last big evolution in baseball besides the drug testing.
NFL has seen all kinds of rules applied to it, and a lot of people think they are not for the better. Some do, some don't. Point is the evolution there is up for debate. The evolution in basketball is almost non-existent except for better PEDs, and this doesn't really affect the best teams from the 90s as they were probably on them too.
Phil Jackson's triangle offense still works and so does his defense. Last I checked he outclassed Spoelstra by a fair margin.
Jack Remington
Banned
He got Parker HARD on the hand. That was pretty clear from the replay.
I don't have time to get into it because it's late but hand checking, zone and other rule changes that all helped perimeter players significantly changed the game. So did the the increase in rules to protect ball handlers. It allowed perimeter players to have more impact and decreased the importance of post players and big men.
Stats do back this up. After the hand check rule "there was a gradual and pronounced decline in the number of unassisted field goals, suggesting an advantage to perimeter players with significant ball-handling skills." You had more perimeter players having 40-50 plus games. Even when accounting for Jordan and Kobe. A statistically significant increase in the number of perimeter players averaging 20+ points a season since the rule changes. More successful drives to the basket due to rules changes that favored unimpedement and hurt the strategies of big men who used to be able to camp in the paint.
You can also look at who the league valued in who they chose and nominated for MVP. Prior to the hand check elimination almost all MVP's went to big men. Since then the reverse has happened.
Zone defense along with the loss of the hand check has pushed the game to the perimeter players, nullified a lot of the advantages bigs once had and helped ball handlers get more penetration. Percentages have gone down accordingly. Which throws a wrench in the notion defense was worse back then. It was different and the system benefitted different players and skillsets.
Not always the biggest bleacher report guy but occasionally there are some good ones:
http://m.bleacherreport.com/article...-50-with-the-hand-check-rules-in-place/page/1
This being amongst the best.
sf2fanatic
Member
Cool thanks!!!
DemurOnion
Banned
Nice post, and it fits in nicely with what I was saying about how the game has changed, but not necessarily evolved into something better. You cannot just assign characteristics to evolution like he did, and say that all evolution is better. It doesn't work that way. The handcheck rules simply made the game slightly different like the NFL's QB rules have made the game slightly different.
But not qualitatively better imo. Just different. I agree players are on the whole slightly more athletic but we are talking about basketball. These guys were never baseball players lol.
We also have the idea that it was actually HARDER for Jordan to score back then. That also could negate what he was saying as Jordan would have an easier time in this league.
And defense back then was absolutely crushing with the best teams, and not nearly as lazy as it was for a few years there. Defensive teams are becoming bigger and better again, though.
Also, people need to stop assigning defensive complexity to NBA teams like it's some kind of NFL program lol. It isn't. And the NBA isn't nearly as complex.
Article brings up zone defenses then completely fails at analyzing their impact. Also ignores the defensive 3 second rule, which I would think would have more of an effect on perimeter scoring as it's huge for spacing the floor. Wouldn't really expect more from BR.
As for the game not evolving, the importance of the corner 3, the elimination of the long 2 pointer, the multi-layer pick and rolls the Spurs run, the amount of misdirection picks and cuts, the advanced tracking provided by sports VU technology, the prevalence of situational statistics over traditional box scores, zone defenses, ridiculous never before seen small ball high trapping defenses like what Miami (still sometimes) runs, the Thibs defensive rules that everyone copied.
Game's evolving, you just need to pay attention.
DemurOnion
Banned
No one here EVER said it isn't evolving. And let's not get ahead of ourselves with the fact that Phil Jackson's teams did a whole bunch of this stuff back in the 90s and other teams did this way before then too. I'm not sure what you are trying to say here? That zone originated in the 21st century lol?
What is being said is that evolution, or whatever you want to call it, cannot just be assigned characteristics that make it out to be better in every respect. That is not an inherent characteristic of evolution. I have put forth a good deal of exposition on why this essentialist viewpoint is garbage. People played zone in the 90s bud.
http://www.people.vcu.edu/~rsleeth/TriangleOffense.html
Give a read to see just how old that triangle offense really is. It will blow your mind. Also notice how the people that are commenting on why the triangle works say it is because of Scottie and Jordan, in other words it works because of individual skill. And there aren't too many people on their level of skill on defense for sure. On offense only Lebron, Wade, and Duncan would even come close.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K-qGWkiKvQ
Always an awesome video to watch. It's kind of a pseudo-zone. Despite being illegal, they don't really call it. haha
Always an awesome video to watch. It's kind of a pseudo-zone. Despite being illegal, they don't really call it. haha
No one is arguing it isn't evolving. In fact my argument is exactly that. Zone, the 3 second rule and the hand check rule take away from the strength of the inside players and gives it to the outside players. Perimeter players with good handles are built better to take advantage of zone holes and score and aren't having their moves shadowed by defenders being able to anticipate by having their hands on them.
With those changes(and others) it has brought evolutions in strategy that operate within the confines of the new rules, both on offense and defense. The types of skills and talents valued in players has also evolved, shifted and changed. Is the end product better? That's subjective obviously.
DemurOnion
Banned
Objectively we see very little to no difference in the top athletes on a skill level. How is this subjective? No center like Shaq exists in the league. D12 is a joke. They are just as big as they have always been, and more importantly, each era has a variety of guys that could play in pretty much any era, further negating this so-called evolution. 1960s to 2010 is an evolution. 1996 to 2010 is basically nothing but a few defensive changes that make the game better or worse depending on what you like. We have reached the point in sports where all teams are doing microstats, where all teams have chemists and doctors, and we are also reaching near human limits with the chemistry too.
That does leave some improvement for some genius coach I guess, or some new crazy player to do something innovative, but we have passed the time of major innovation in sports imo unless they start changing the paradigm totally. All we can do really is analyze things from the point that objectively any evolution in this sport, if it's even happening, is going slower than hell freezing over. Some people would argue that if it weren't for the Spurs and Heat and a couple others the NBA would be pretty lame. Seems pretty much the same as it always was to me.
I mean the triangle offense is from the 1940s! It won how many championships again?
http://www.fannation.com/blogs/post/337437-zone-defense-in-the-nba-is-it-good-for-the-game
Please read up on Zone Defenses, Mr Peace and other guy. What Mr. PEACE was saying is DIRECTLY CONTRADICTED by this piece on Zone defense in the NBA.
Is it better now? THAT part is up for debate. It certainly is not truth like some here would like to portray. And those 90s Bulls could still play zone and against it.
I'm not exactly sure what you are disagreeing with, arguing or trying to educate me on??
I know what a zone is, played a few variations of it personally, I understand the rule changes and I acknowledge a lot of strategies today have been around for quite some time.
However as rules change the sport will evolve around it. Or maybe more accurately put the sport "adjusts" around it. Perhaps evolve isn't the right word.
DemurOnion
Banned
I want to explicitly take out this piece from the article to expose some of the rash and quite incomplete opinions formed by a couple people here: Zone does not mean that better defense is key. Zone often means that players don't play as much defense, leading to weaker defensive teams, which is what we have currently now in the NBA besides the top ones:
"So, as I ponder the few benefits of the zone, I find them sadly outweighed by the overall weight they have brought to the game. I have thought for a long time now that the zone should be removed again and players like Jason Kapono would have to either figure out how to run quicker or retire. Imagine a league where you had to have defensive skills to make the roster. No longer would a pretty jumper from the corner be your ticket to the show. That, if no other reason, is why today's players, though much better athlete's than the Celtics and Lakers and Pistons and Spurs and Jazz and Knicks and Suns and 76ers of the 80's and earlier, would have a very difficult time playing in that era as they just don't have the skills on the defensive end of the floor. The zone has taken away the players responsibility to defend the man in front of them up and down the floor and has produced many one dimensional "stars" that the league is willing to promote as great players. I am not that easily sold marketing hype. There are many good players in the league today, but many of those players rely on zone defense to cover their butts most nights. Today's top teams rely on tough man defense as Glen Davis found out. Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, Kendrick Perkins all can defend their position well and Rajon Rondo is figuring that out as well. Teams like the Suns with Steve Nash, Amar'e Stoudemire rely on zone defense and find it difficult to get past a fundamentally sound team like the Spurs who have solid on ball defenders like Duncan, Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker. The Cavaliers have committed themselves to defense and have the lowest points per game allowed in the league thus far. As of this morning the top 5 teams based on points allowed per game are:"
At any rate those two articles I posted are very good reads.
"So, as I ponder the few benefits of the zone, I find them sadly outweighed by the overall weight they have brought to the game. I have thought for a long time now that the zone should be removed again and players like Jason Kapono would have to either figure out how to run quicker or retire. Imagine a league where you had to have defensive skills to make the roster. No longer would a pretty jumper from the corner be your ticket to the show. That, if no other reason, is why today's players, though much better athlete's than the Celtics and Lakers and Pistons and Spurs and Jazz and Knicks and Suns and 76ers of the 80's and earlier, would have a very difficult time playing in that era as they just don't have the skills on the defensive end of the floor. The zone has taken away the players responsibility to defend the man in front of them up and down the floor and has produced many one dimensional "stars" that the league is willing to promote as great players. I am not that easily sold marketing hype. There are many good players in the league today, but many of those players rely on zone defense to cover their butts most nights. Today's top teams rely on tough man defense as Glen Davis found out. Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, Kendrick Perkins all can defend their position well and Rajon Rondo is figuring that out as well. Teams like the Suns with Steve Nash, Amar'e Stoudemire rely on zone defense and find it difficult to get past a fundamentally sound team like the Spurs who have solid on ball defenders like Duncan, Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker. The Cavaliers have committed themselves to defense and have the lowest points per game allowed in the league thus far. As of this morning the top 5 teams based on points allowed per game are:"
At any rate those two articles I posted are very good reads.
DemurOnion
Banned
Not you dude.
Article directed at guy who saying this wasn't going in-depth enough and of course Mr. PEACE and his ridiculously backwards rhetoric. I swear some people, come in accusing, offer nothing, and then leave before all the main points are made. Good grief.Oh ok. I was confused when you quoted me.Not you dude.
Good links though! Some things that are obvious now but I never considered about zone and it's shortcomings before I read that.
DemurOnion
Banned
Hell yeah, I'm learning things too. In particular, a good point is made why Phil's offense would still be very hard to defend against with such great players:
To Bulls' coaches, of course, the beauty of the triangle offense is that any player can assume any position at any time, making it especially difficult to defend against. Once the Bulls form the basic triangle, they can run a series of "options" or "counters"- backdoors, weakside pinches, lobs into the post -depending on what the defense gives them: the triangle offense creates opportunities for all these and more. With such versatile, multidimensional players as Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Toni Kukoc and Dennis Rodman, the Bulls are able to exploit mismatches all over the court. "One great thing about the offense is that it gives everybody their touches and makes them feel involved," says TNT analyst and former NBA coach Dick Versace. "Another thing is that it's unpredictable. You don't just come down and hold two fingers up and call a play, so the defense never knows for sure what's coming."
"With strengths like these, it's no surprise this offense has many admirers. Daly liked it so much, he used it briefly in the early '90s with the Pistons, a classic pick-and-roll team if ever there was one." Just wanted to say those old Pistons were very good at pick and rolls on offense, and their defense had some very creative stuff going on. No team in this current NBA, but the Spurs and Heat, would have a chance against them in their time imo. In their two year prime that is. That was one tough ass team.
The Bulls have great defense now in the league but their offense is lacking. If that team could put it together they could be really great. It is a shame about Rose so far.
This is my last post on this rubbish: There may be a debate, but it's a fundamentally idiotic one. The game has evolved and there is quite simply no way to compare eras.
You come in here spouting off about 80s and 90s, about pussy basketball, about real defenses that would have put the hammer down and the fact of the matter is you're just speculating. Could the Bad Boy Pistons have stopped the 2014 Heat's offense? Who the fuck knows? Who cares? Who can make any kind of argument on this point that has any basis in anything? It's a talking point that's completely devoid of any substance.
By all means continue to wax nostalgic about the 80s and 90s teams you know for a fact would have dominated today's pussy league and pussy players, I'd like to think there's better things to discuss in the 2014 NBA finals thread but it doesn't appear to be the case.
P.S. Bringing up the Sacramento LA series makes you look like a crazy person See here
DemurOnion
Banned
Wow, yeah. Okay. Go away, junior. You are clearly out of your league. If you can't hold an adult conversation with people then leave. You have so far brought nothing to this conversation. The argument was that everything has evolved and it's better now. This whole thing here was distinct in proving this objectively wrong based on a qualitative state of evolution in basketball. We didn't just switch to a 5 point line. We didn't widen the court again. Nothing has changed but a few defensive rules and such and they are up for debate. I don't have anything against the Heat or the Spurs. There isn't much to discuss. It was a sloppy game that got picked up because people wanted to talk about some comparisons. I think it was worthwhile. PEACE.
i had to do a double take
DemurOnion
Banned
Well dude is starting to swear at me for no reason so.... conversation over. I know you all like the Junior on Junior love
TheSadRanger
Banned
I just want to put in my observations from the game and the problem that I saw defensive wise from the Spurs is that it didn't seem like any of the players wanted to risk the chance of trying to draw a charge on Lebron.
Zone defense doesn't work out that well unless you have players willing to do that. LBJ had a lot of points in the paint, I want to say he had at least 15-20 in the paint but I'm probably wrong. I didn't watch the entire game super close. But I saw opportunities from Duncan, Diaw, and other Spurs players who were in position to draw a charge and saw Lebron coming and just merely stepped out of the way.
There were other mistakes the spurs made like missed FT's, but they really need someone who can try and take a freaking charge once in a while.
edit: Most of the time the defensive players were outside the arc as well to draw a charge.
Zone defense doesn't work out that well unless you have players willing to do that. LBJ had a lot of points in the paint, I want to say he had at least 15-20 in the paint but I'm probably wrong. I didn't watch the entire game super close. But I saw opportunities from Duncan, Diaw, and other Spurs players who were in position to draw a charge and saw Lebron coming and just merely stepped out of the way.
There were other mistakes the spurs made like missed FT's, but they really need someone who can try and take a freaking charge once in a while.
edit: Most of the time the defensive players were outside the arc as well to draw a charge.
DemurOnion
Banned
I agree. I was aghast no one was taking a charge. I thought the Spurs were going to double down and get in front of him and they never did. In fact, I see that less in the NBA. I know they changed the rule of the footing for that too. ANOTHER rule that is basically just a subjective rule change, not really an evolution per se.
I think Pop or the players were sloppy tonight. Not sure where to pinpoint it. Heat looked okay but both of these games have been disappointing for me. Hoping for a better series starting now.
ConradCervantes
Banned
this fucking guy.
i hope he gets fined with that shit.
I watched the game at a bar and man oh man did that place blow up at the replay.
TheSadRanger
Banned
To be honest, from my perspective there was some pretty over exaggerated flops from both teams on that game.
edit: didn't Chalmers do the exact same fucking thing where he acted like someone scratched his eye yet no ones hands were even close to his face?
edit: didn't Chalmers do the exact same fucking thing where he acted like someone scratched his eye yet no ones hands were even close to his face?
DemurOnion
Banned
This one is just.... weird though. What was Wade thinking? How do you get that fucking call? Don't tell me a damn ref can't see that man.
It honestly makes him less a player and I'm not kidding. Did Jordan do this? Did Johnson do this? Did Shaq do this? hardly ever if at all! What the hell is wrong with these people? It's so blatantly low and such a representative notion of how this current game is based on doing everything in the book to win, legal or not. You can bet that JAW LINE on that monster is ROID enhanced all the way.
Rose said on a scale of 1-10 how bad PEDs were in the league and he said 7 or 8. LOL. I believe him 100%. Wade is such a dirty player.
Because Jordan was totally clean.
Jordan is a better player than Wade, but abstinence from performance enchancers isn't a particularly fitting criterion.
this fucking guy.
i hope he gets fined with that shit.
Football players have nothing on these guys. Diving after the tiniest bit of a touch is one thing. Actively faking a hit like that is on a whole other dimension.
DemurOnion
Banned
I mean, you really have to have a certain sensibility to do this. I am willing to bet my armchair psychology degree that people willing to do this would take a shot from a doctor in a heartbeat. I just can't fathom doing this on court. It's hilarious! I think I'm starting to like him.
The GOOD NEWS: This shite is EVERYWHERE right now lol. Wade ain't gonna get away with this forever methinks.
Everywhere but LebronCenter that is, where the usual goo covers the keyboards of every journalist in house.
teruterubozu
Member
Junior-on-junior attack. I've seen it all.
curlyfriski
Banned
DemurOnion do you have to shit up every sports thread with barely literate PED FUD?
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