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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**

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Garryk

Member
I agree that it is well written, but I just don't like her. I used to feel the same way about Jamie, but he has developed from his misfortunes; he wants to change. I like some of the characters she has focused on like Qyburn and the whole fortune thing is interesting, but for the most part I'm not interested in her quest for more power.

I don't want to be spoiled either, I just want to know that my good friends are waiting for me with great tales to tell.
 

Puddles

Banned
I LOVE the Qyburn scenes. His quotes are genius.

"The puppeteers are quite used up."

"For hundreds of years the men of the Citadel have opened the bodies of the dead, to study the nature of life. I wished to understand the nature of death, so I opened the bodies of the living."

Or my favorite:

"I fear that Lady Falyse is no longer capable of ruling Stokeworth. Or, indeed, of feeding herself. I have learned a great deal from her, I am pleased to say, but the lessons have not been entirely without cost. I hope I have not exceeded Your Grace’s instructions."
 
This might have something to do with it. In my mind I see constant "Headey face" while reading her chapters.

I can't watch Spartacus without being bitter Viva Bianca didn't get the part instead of Headey. She's a better actress, has more facial range, is attractive, and actually looks like Cersei Lannister
 

endre

Member
I can't watch Spartacus without being bitter Viva Bianca didn't get the part instead of Headey. She's a better actress, has more facial range, is attractive, and actually looks like Cersei Lannister

She is not my dream girl, and I haven't watched that show, but you might be on to something.

MV5BMTQwNjM4NTY1NV5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwMDAyNzE0Nw@@._V1._SX640_SY960_.jpg


EDIT: I don't like Myrcella casting either.
I think these ones are better:(lol)

Cersei.jpg

Myrcella_Baratheon.jpg
 

Wray

Member
I agree that it is well written, but I just don't like her. I used to feel the same way about Jamie, but he has developed from his misfortunes; he wants to change. I like some of the characters she has focused on like Qyburn and the whole fortune thing is interesting, but for the most part I'm not interested in her quest for more power.

I don't want to be spoiled either, I just want to know that my good friends are waiting for me with great tales to tell.

ADWD is very similar to AFFC, except it focuses mainly on Tyrion, Dany and Jon instead of Brienne, Cersei, Arya, etc.

It's not like SoS. Feast and Dance seem to be the setup for that in the next book.



I can't watch Spartacus without being bitter Viva Bianca didn't get the part instead of Headey. She's a better actress, has more facial range, is attractive, and actually looks like Cersei Lannister

That would have been amazing. I'm in love with that woman. DAT SWORD SCENE!
 

Mordeccai

Member
my thoughts on individual characters have shifted a lot (tyrion and jaime are the best examples) but i have been pro-stark and anti-lannister since the beginning. what houses have you changed your mind on?

During the first two books of the series I took a very linear "Hell yeah Starks!" and "Boo Lannisters!" approach. But over the course of the third book and through the fourth and fifth, I've come to think the Lannisters are entirely logical, practical and strong people, with the exception of Cersei. Sure, they may be selfish, but who isn't when they already fund half the realm? Then you've got Jamie evolving through this whole period of disruption (seriously, losing your hand? To a piece of shit like Vargo?) and becoming the better for it. Tywin had a badass vision for his family; to never fall into obscurity, to become powerful and rule, because honestly they had the resources to.

Martin put some real ass strife into inter-family conflict within the Lannisters. Cersei fucked the family by being psychotic and short-minded. Jamie's severed hand cost himself and the family not only a military advantage, but an advantage of image. Who wants to be ruled by a man with no main sword hand? Unless Jamie becomes just as good a fighter with his left, people will never view him the same. And Tyrion, the most cunning, aware, and knowledgeable of them all, was disowned by his father and thought to have killed his own mom. So pretty much, they're a powerful, dysfunctional, failing from the inside family.

The Starks were an equally powerful family in their region of Westeros, but were screwed from the outside world. Its a cool contrast seeing these two families fall apart from different circumstances.

The Targaryens also changed for me, at first I thought they were all just nuts. Inbreeding, history of madness, thats really all you know for the first few novels. But then the history is fleshed out a little more and they become a lot more interesting, enough to make me want to root for Danerys much more. She seems to have the only key to stopping the incoming invasion of the Others too, so house Targaryen has as a whole more interesting characters to me.
 

i recommend you remove the one with nudity, as cool as it is.

During the first two books of the series I took a very linear "Hell yeah Starks!" and "Boo Lannisters!" approach. But over the course of the third book and through the fourth and fifth, I've come to think the Lannisters are entirely logical, practical and strong people, with the exception of Cersei. Sure, they may be selfish, but who isn't when they already fund half the realm? Then you've got Jamie evolving through this whole period of disruption (seriously, losing your hand? To a piece of shit like Vargo?) and becoming the better for it. Tywin had a badass vision for his family; to never fall into obscurity, to become powerful and rule, because honestly they had the resources to.

Martin put some real ass strife into inter-family conflict within the Lannisters. Cersei fucked the family by being psychotic and short-minded. Jamie's severed hand cost himself and the family not only a military advantage, but an advantage of image. Who wants to be ruled by a man with no main sword hand? Unless Jamie becomes just as good a fighter with his left, people will never view him the same. And Tyrion, the most cunning, aware, and knowledgeable of them all, was disowned by his father and thought to have killed his own mom. So pretty much, they're a powerful, dysfunctional, failing from the inside family.

The Starks were an equally powerful family in their region of Westeros, but were screwed from the outside world. Its a cool contrast seeing these two families fall apart from different circumstances.

The Targaryens also changed for me, at first I thought they were all just nuts. Inbreeding, history of madness, thats really all you know for the first few novels. But then the history is fleshed out a little more and they become a lot more interesting, enough to make me want to root for Danerys much more. She seems to have the only key to stopping the incoming invasion of the Others too, so house Targaryen has as a whole more interesting characters to me.

this is a really good analysis and i like a lot of it. my one issue is that cersei is effectively the head of the lannisters at this point, and she is vile and crazy. therefore, while i will admit that i may be able to side with a lannister family that was led by tyrion and jaime (though they still fucked up ned, which would be hard to recover from in my book) i cant root for tyrion if his goal is to keep cersei's kids on the throne and her in the picture. also, they dont belong there no matter how you slice it.
 

LuchaShaq

Banned
My view of the starks/lannisters flipped strongly as well. At the start I was like yup good/evil +tyrions cool.

Now? I feel AWFUL for kevan, cerseis younger two kids. Hate Joffrey and cersei as much as ever.

Starks? Well largely the same except I hate cat, her actions in letting jaime free with no guarantee ugh
 

Mordeccai

Member
i recommend you remove the one with nudity, as cool as it is.



this is a really good analysis and i like a lot of it. my one issue is that cersei is effectively the head of the lannisters at this point, and she is vile and crazy. therefore, while i will admit that i may be able to side with a lannister family that was led by tyrion and jaime (though they still fucked up ned, which would be hard to recover from in my book) i cant root for tyrion if his goal is to keep cersei's kids on the throne and her in the picture. also, they dont belong there no matter how you slice it.

I'm of the opinion that there will be some sort of big event in the next books causing Tyrion to have a big falling out with his family. He's shown some anger towards Jamie in ADWD. He's never been fond of Cersei. He's already killed his father so I could definitely see him killing Cersei or something drastic like that. Or maybe it will be revealed that he's a Targaryen, giving him reason to separate from the family.

Anyway, my point is I think Tyrion is not fighting for keeping Myrcella/Tommen on the throne any more. I think he's going to sit back and evaluate who its wisest to throw his lot in for, though he will most likely side with Danerys and fight against Cersei if she remains on the throne.

Gah, all this speculation is going to kill me inside, its going to be a long wait for the next books.
 

endre

Member
I'm of the opinion that there will be some sort of big event in the next books causing Tyrion to have a big falling out with his family. He's shown some anger towards Jamie in ADWD. He's never been fond of Cersei. He's already killed his father so I could definitely see him killing Cersei or something drastic like that. Or maybe it will be revealed that he's a Targaryen, giving him reason to separate from the family.

I'm not so sure. It's not Martin like. Also considering all the theories out there that Tyrion is one of the dragon heads I don't want it to become true. I want that Martin surprises me with a good plot twist. Additionally I don't see him killing the rest of his relatives. More along the lines of him witnessing the death of Cersei and not helping then doing it himself. Then again, if Martin continues his stuff I think we would sooner see him kill Jaime or something along those lines, then Cersei, only because so many people would not expect that.

EDIT: Can anyone correctly summarize Daenerys's vision of the three stuff? Betrayal for love, gold etc. Are we sure that the gold betrayal is Jorah's?
 
Gah, all this speculation is going to kill me inside, its going to be a long wait for the next books.

im sorta curious about what this thread looks like a year from now. its going to be years until the next book, so if the thread continues its just going to speculation for a while. which i love reading. as ive mentioned, i wasnt the closest reader, so learning that jaqen probably infiltrated the maesters was awesome.

EDIT: Can anyone correctly summarize Daenerys's vision of the three stuff? Betrayal for love, gold etc. Are we sure that the gold betrayal is Jorah's?

i thought jorah was the love betrayal?
 

endre

Member
I might be mistaking, but wasn't it for Varys's gold? Later he fell in love, and I think he didn't betray her for love?! Am I wrong? Didn't that one sell sword company betray her for gold?

EDIT: the Second Sons, whom Tyrion plans to change sides again. Shit, this makes no sense... Then both Jorah and Ben Plumm count for gold

EDIT2:

. . . three heads has the dragon . . .
. . . three fires must you light . . . one for life and one for death and one to love . . .
. . . three mounts must you ride . . . one to bed and one to dread and one to love . . .
. . . three treasons will you know . . . once for blood and once for gold and once for love . .

I'd speculate the following:
Fire for life --> The dragons
Fire for death --> Drogo??
Mount to bed --> Drogo (is it? it happened before the prophecy. She also went to bed with Dario i do not recollect if she had slept with the harpy guy )
Mount to dread --> Dany flying on a dragon to war or something like that
Threason for gold --> Jorah or Ben Plumm (my take is on Jorah). The internetz put Daario and Illyrio here as likely culprits, since Jorah wants to redeem him self so bad and Dany sometimes misses him, I wouldn't dismiss these possibilities so easily.
Threason for blood --> Mirri Maz Duur
Threason for love --> maybe Jorah pulling some shit again, or Daario?

EDIT3: I'd also like to see a stone dragon awakened, and a kraken as well. And maybe a frost dragon, LOL. But these are highly unlikely.

EDIT4:. . . three heads has the dragon . . .
Martin has stated that Rhaenys is definitely dead, but also that the three heads need not be Targaryens.
source:http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Prophecies/Entry/1811/
additionally:http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Prophecies/
 
During the first two books of the series I took a very linear "Hell yeah Starks!" and "Boo Lannisters!" approach. But over the course of the third book and through the fourth and fifth, I've come to think the Lannisters are entirely logical, practical and strong people, with the exception of Cersei. Sure, they may be selfish, but who isn't when they already fund half the realm? Then you've got Jamie evolving through this whole period of disruption (seriously, losing your hand? To a piece of shit like Vargo?) and becoming the better for it. Tywin had a badass vision for his family; to never fall into obscurity, to become powerful and rule, because honestly they had the resources to.

Martin put some real ass strife into inter-family conflict within the Lannisters. Cersei fucked the family by being psychotic and short-minded. Jamie's severed hand cost himself and the family not only a military advantage, but an advantage of image. Who wants to be ruled by a man with no main sword hand? Unless Jamie becomes just as good a fighter with his left, people will never view him the same. And Tyrion, the most cunning, aware, and knowledgeable of them all, was disowned by his father and thought to have killed his own mom. So pretty much, they're a powerful, dysfunctional, failing from the inside family.

The Starks were an equally powerful family in their region of Westeros, but were screwed from the outside world. Its a cool contrast seeing these two families fall apart from different circumstances.

The Targaryens also changed for me, at first I thought they were all just nuts. Inbreeding, history of madness, thats really all you know for the first few novels. But then the history is fleshed out a little more and they become a lot more interesting, enough to make me want to root for Danerys much more. She seems to have the only key to stopping the incoming invasion of the Others too, so house Targaryen has as a whole more interesting characters to me.

Agreed except that despite my views on House Targaryen changing, still doesn't really make me root for Danerys.

I still root for the Starks, and really my only want out of the next two novels is the wolves to rise again, but now it doesn't have to be at the cost of the Lannisters, which I used to feel.

Speaking about somebody mentioning Tryion displaying anger at Jamie in ADWD, anyone know why he told Jamie that he killed Joffrey? That always rubbed me the wrong way for some reason, didn't like that he did that.
 

sharbhund

Member
Speaking about somebody mentioning Tryion displaying anger at Jamie in ADWD, anyone know why he told Jamie that he killed Joffrey? That always rubbed me the wrong way for some reason, didn't like that he did that.

Tyrion was pissed at Jaime because Jaime had just confessed that he had lied about Tyrion's wife being a whore.
 

KingK

Member
I agree that it is well written, but I just don't like her. I used to feel the same way about Jamie, but he has developed from his misfortunes; he wants to change. I like some of the characters she has focused on like Qyburn and the whole fortune thing is interesting, but for the most part I'm not interested in her quest for more power.

I don't want to be spoiled either, I just want to know that my good friends are waiting for me with great tales to tell.

I agree. I don't enjoy or look forward to Cersei's chapters as much just because I don't like her. I was also like that with Jaime at first in SoS (before he lost his hand) and Theon in CoK (though he's one of my favorites in Dance).
 

chiQ

Member
I am not guessing or speculating here, as I really don't remember enough to make clever suggestions. I'm just expressing what I would like to happen.

The idea of Tyrion, Arya, and Dany teaming up is a really nice one, but it's pure Hollywood, and I really don't want GRRM to switch tracks like that. I would like to see the three of them converge to try and achieve similar ends separately though.

None of them want the White Walkers to get past the wall. All of them would probably love to see Cersei drown in her own blood. I have a feeling they all have a series of missions of vengeance/closure that would lead them to cross paths over and above those, let alone the reunions they would seek.

The near misses where people have almost but not quite met amuse me, and I like the idea of that when these three get back to Westeros....if they do.
 

thats a lot of edits. i think this thread convinced me at one point that jon snow gets to ride one of the dragons. dany, jon, someone else, which is even more speculative than jon.

and the near misses sometimes infuriate me and sometimes are really good. at first i was pissed arya didnt get to meet up with robb and cat and then it was clear that was for the best.
 
Something that has always bothered me about The Game of Thrones is that during its prologue a brother of the Watch is leading some Rangers. The thing is, he is a Ser wearing a knight’s expensive armor; why is he not in black? Also, how is it that John’s Uncle could just up and visit Winterfell when he was a man of the Night’s Watch? Am I missing something, or is it just that GRRM had not fully flushed out the concept at this point?
 

Pkaz01

Member
Also, how is it that John’s Uncle could just up and visit Winterfell when he was a man of the Night’s Watch? Am I missing something, or is it just that GRRM had not fully flushed out the concept at this point?

Pretty sure he was transporting new recruits but its either that or he went to ask the king (or to ask ned so he can ask the king) for people/supplies.
 

Garryk

Member
I assumed that Benjen went down to Winterfell to investigate the deserter that Ned executed.

I always thought that the Black Brothers got to keep what they brought with them (horse, armor, weapons, etc.). Just like how Mormont had the Valyrian blade that he gave to Jon.
 

Lirlond

Member
I remember in a Jon chapter it talked about dying stuff black. So they probably have black enamel and such for armour and stuff to stain leather. Not too far fetched that they keep what they own but dye it. I mean Jon constantly goes on about how better equipped he was than his brothers.
 
Somewhat related, but has there been any word on the "World of Westeros" book that is supposedly coming out? The compendium written from the two people from Westeros.org

Would love to get my hands on something like that...no idea if it's been scrapped, delayed, or what.
 

gutshot

Member
Somewhat related, but has there been any word on the "World of Westeros" book that is supposedly coming out? The compendium written from the two people from Westeros.org

Would love to get my hands on something like that...no idea if it's been scrapped, delayed, or what.

It's still coming. It will probably be published in the latter half of this year. The publisher is supposed to announce the exact date soon. They have already announced a Maps of Ice and Fire book to be published on Oct 30, so I suspect the World of Ice and Fire would be around that same time.
 
I assumed that Benjen went down to Winterfell to investigate the deserter that Ned executed.

I always thought that the Black Brothers got to keep what they brought with them (horse, armor, weapons, etc.). Just like how Mormont had the Valyrian blade that he gave to Jon.

I remember in a Jon chapter it talked about dying stuff black. So they probably have black enamel and such for armour and stuff to stain leather. Not too far fetched that they keep what they own but dye it. I mean Jon constantly goes on about how better equipped he was than his brothers.

Pretty sure he was transporting new recruits but its either that or he went to ask the king (or to ask ned so he can ask the king) for people/supplies.

Thanks; I'll skim through GOT when I get home.
 
He's totally dead. They'll mention his death in Winds once or twice in passing, and that'll be that.

In an interview GRRM was keen to imply he isn't dead.

ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: So why did you kill Jon Snow?
GEORGE R.R. MARTIN: Oh, you think he’s dead, do you?

Well, I guess. Yes. That’s how I took it. The way it was written, it sounded like he was mortally wounded — and, you know, it’s you!
Well. I’m not going to address whether he’s dead or not. But as to why — didn’t you think the text established why they would want to assassinate him?

The narrative made perfect sense. Looking back through the books, all the decisions Jon’s made, and all the foreshadowing that was there, yes, you played fair. At the same time, it was devastating and I suspect fans will howl, the most since–
The most since the Red Wedding, I suspect.

How long have you intended for that incident to happen?
For many years. Some of the stuff about Melisandre warning Jon of “daggers in the dark” was written 10 years ago.

It’s a harsh chapter in terms of fan expectations. You go from this total high of Jon giving this rousing speech about going after the evil Ramsay Bolton, to this utter low of his men turning against him. So fans are not supposed to draw that conclusion he’s dead?
What I’m seeing from early reactions, admittedly just a handful, I think fans are going to split and argue about it until the next book comes out.
 

Pkaz01

Member
I think he made it pretty obvious that jon is AA with the comments about looking into the fire and seeing jon snow. And the early chapter that shows wargs live through their animal. Mel is totally going to revive him but who will be the sacrifice? Only death can pay for life.

TWOW released chapters spoilers

my guess
is theon being sacrificed to Bran at the godswood
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Just finished FfC. Was feeling disappointed until I read the authors note. The book still feels like not a lot important happened though, other then Cersei ending up in prison and Sam kicking off the actions of Mister Mystery Maester who I'm hoping will become awesome.

Oh, and what the fuck happened to Brienne? Is she dead? I looked through the chapter list for DwD and didn't see any chapters for her.
 

endre

Member
Brienne is not dead.
She was sent to pickup Jaime.
spoiler^2
and get him to lady Fracula

EDIT:
@Puddles

I am pretty sure he is not trolling more than you. Pls don't take offense, I am just referring on you "insisting" Jon is dead. He is not likely to kill of a character that is one of the highlights (stars to be more accurate) of his story that could set up even his grand children through royalties. He would be trolling himself the most then. The HBO show is not helping your theory either, since the Jon Snow fan club is only getting bigger thanks to it.
 

Randdalf

Member
Just finished FfC. Was feeling disappointed until I read the authors note. The book still feels like not a lot important happened though, other then Cersei ending up in prison and Sam kicking off the actions of Mister Mystery Maester who I'm hoping will become awesome.

Oh, and what the fuck happened to Brienne? Is she dead? I looked through the chapter list for DwD and didn't see any chapters for her.

You don't have to be a PoV character to appear in a book ;)

On the subject of Jon, on one hand I'd like to see him just die and watch the reactions to that. On the other hand I could totally see Melisandre bringing him back somehow, through warging or Thoros's resurrection kiss. What would be the logistics of him coming back to life? Is he still Lord Commander? Is he still even a black brother? Would this leave him free to run off and smash some Freys/Boltons?
 
TWOW released chapters spoilers

my guess
is theon being sacrificed to Bran at the godswood

That would be pretty anti-climatic imo, considering it would mean Jon is "resurrected" very early in TWOW; plus we don't know whether that sample chapter occurs before or after Jon's final ADWD chapter.

It seems more likely that Jon will be frozen for a considerable amount of TWOW.
 

endre

Member
What would be the logistics of him coming back to life? Is he still Lord Commander? Is he still even a black brother? Would this leave him free to run off and smash some Freys/Boltons?

First of all, nobody said he is dead. Second, and this is my reasoning, he needed this to pull his shit together. To once and for all dismiss the idea that a lord commander can have friends. I honestly wouldn't like him brought back as a warg. I'd like to see him survive his wounds and come back as a hardened lord commander who is suspicious of everyone and not letting anyone undermine his authority.
 
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