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[CrunchyB]

Since Jeyne Westerling is now Talisa, I guess that means we won't get that awesome AFFC scene where Jaime grills her about whether she's pregnant, and we find out that her mother was secretly giving her some kind of birth-control tea. That scene also had a really touching moment where she refused to give up the crown that Robb had given her. I hope they can find a way to keep that.

Funny you should mention that chapter. Jaime's description of her is quite different from Catelyn's.

pretty, undeniably, with her chestnut curls and heart-shaped face, and that shy smile. Slender, but with good hips, Catelyn noted. She would have no trouble bearing children at least."

vs.

she did not look dangerous. Jeyne was a willowy girl, no more than fifteen or sixteen, more awkward than graceful. She had narrow hips, breasts the size of apples, a mop of chestnut curls, and the soft brown eyes of a doe. Pretty enough for a child, Jaime decided, but not a girl to lose a kingdom for.

It's been speculated that Sybell is trying to pass off the younger sister, Elenya, as Jeyne. Which opens up a whole host of interesting possibilities

There's also circumstantial evidence; Sybill is angry because the Freys killed her son Raynald, Edmure seems peculiarly pleased about something and the Blackfish has vanished.

 

[SouthernDragon]

It's been speculated that Sybell is trying to pass off the younger sister, Elenya, as Jeyne. Which opens up a whole host of interesting possibilities

There's also circumstantial evidence; Sybill is angry because the Freys killed her son Raynald, Edmure seems peculiarly pleased about something and the Blackfish has vanished.

fuck

I believe.

 

[cj_iwakura]

I forget if ASOS answers this, but I assume if Daenerys hadn't taken Mormont's advice to go after the slaves, it would've ended badly for her.


And I only saw some of season 2, mostly the first half. Sounds like that's a good thing.

 

[Steelyuhas]

Funny you should mention that chapter. Jaime's description of her is quite different from Catelyn's.

It's been speculated that Sybell is trying to pass off the younger sister, Elenya, as Jeyne. Which opens up a whole host of interesting possibilities

There's also circumstantial evidence; Sybill is angry because the Freys killed her son Raynald, Edmure seems peculiarly pleased about something and the Blackfish has vanished.

One of the most curious, and awesome things that I never actually noticed just reading through the book the first time.

Assuming that's true, I wonder when we will find out in the books if it's indeed true and what/where Jenye and possibly the Blackfish as well. It's possible that we could run into a situation where that theory is confirmed by the show if the show reaches that Jaime scene before we find out if that wasn't actually Jenye in the book.

fuck

I believe.

KING IN THE NORTH!

 

[MichaelEM3]

Funny you should mention that chapter. Jaime's description of her is quite different from Catelyn's.



vs.



It's been speculated that Sybell is trying to pass off the younger sister, Elenya, as Jeyne. Which opens up a whole host of interesting possibilities

There's also circumstantial evidence; Sybill is angry because the Freys killed her son Raynald, Edmure seems peculiarly pleased about something and the Blackfish has vanished.

Holy shit.

 

[SouthernDragon]

And I only saw some of season 2, mostly the first half. Sounds like that's a good thing.

Naw, people here are awfully hard on the show. It is becoming its own thing, and that's fine. It does a good job with the characters. My only issue is with Arya; she's a little more coldblooded and murderous in the books. Her character is largely intact and there's still opportunities for her to murder, so I'm still cool with her.

 

[RatskyWatsky]

Funny you should mention that chapter. Jaime's description of her is quite different from Catelyn's.



vs.



It's been speculated that Sybell is trying to pass off the younger sister, Elenya, as Jeyne. Which opens up a whole host of interesting possibilities

There's also circumstantial evidence; Sybill is angry because the Freys killed her son Raynald, Edmure seems peculiarly pleased about something and the Blackfish has vanished.

Holy fuuuuu

 

[Frost_Ace]

Funny you should mention that chapter. Jaime's description of her is quite different from Catelyn's.



vs.



It's been speculated that Sybell is trying to pass off the younger sister, Elenya, as Jeyne. Which opens up a whole host of interesting possibilities

There's also circumstantial evidence; Sybill is angry because the Freys killed her son Raynald, Edmure seems peculiarly pleased about something and the Blackfish has vanished.

Holy shiiit, maybe the blackfiah and the true Jeyne went to the BWB? Guess we'll find out in the next jaime/brienne chapters.

 

[JerkShep]

So I'm re-reading AFFC+ADWD and I have noticed something. In "The Watcher" (the Hotah chapter in ADWD) Doran claims to have "friends at court" that revealed the real plan behind the Balon Swan's visit in Dorne: inviting Trystane at court with Myrcella and killing in the boy along the way. Now, I read all the Cersei chapters recently and it seems really odd to me that Cersei wants to kill Trystane, she's all sort of crazy but she has no reason to, she just wants Myrcella back. She never clearly says her intentions behind sending Balon Swann in Dorne (except to deliver Gregor's head, of course) in her chapters. In Cersei's mind the Tyrells are the enemies, she doesn't care about Dorne, she even wants a Dornish knight to train Tommen at some point.
Could it be that someone from KL is feeding Doran false informations? My main suspects would be the Tyrells or Varys itself. Someone that wants Myrcella in Dorne maybe? I don't know, but I don't think Cersei is behind the plan at all, if a plan even exists. Another option could be that Doran is just lying to rally the Sand Snakes to his cause and to use them as he see fit.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

So I'm re-reading AFFC+ADWD and I have noticed something. In "The Watcher" (the Hotah chapter in ADWD) Doran claims to have "friends at court" that revealed the real plan behind the Balon Swan's visit in Dorne: inviting Trystane at court with Myrcella and killing in the boy along the way. Now, I read all the Cersei chapters recently and it seems really odd to me that Cersei wants to kill Trystane, she's all sort of crazy but she has no reason to, she just wants Myrcella back. She never clearly says her intentions behind sending Balon Swann in Dorne (except to deliver Gregor's head, of course) in her chapters. In Cersei's mind the Tyrells are the enemies, she doesn't care about Dorne, she even wants a Dornish knight to train Tommen at some point.
Could it be that someone from KL is feeding Doran false informations? My main suspects would be the Tyrells or Varys itself. Someone that wants Myrcella in Dorne maybe? I don't know, but I don't think Cersei is behind the plan at all, if a plan even exists. Another option could be that Doran is just lying to rally the Sand Snakes to his cause and to use them as he see fit.

I think Cersei does hint that there was something secret to Balon Swann's mission in Dorne, but still, you could be on to something.

 

[Cornballer]

Posted in the Paradox gaming thread:

Someone posted an 8 minute vid of the Crusader Kings 2 mod in action on youtube in case anyone wants to take a look.

 

[ahoyhoy]

Someone posted an 8 minute vid of the Crusader Kings 2 mod in action on youtube in case anyone wants to take a look.

I know what I'll be looking for this Steam Sale. Looks supremely awesome.

EDIT: Looks like Amazon does what Valvedon't

 

[cj_iwakura]

Naw, people here are awfully hard on the show. It is becoming its own thing, and that's fine. It does a good job with the characters. My only issue is with Arya; she's a little more coldblooded and murderous in the books. Her character is largely intact and there's still opportunities for her to murder, so I'm still cool with her.

Oh, I love what I've seen of it, make no mistake, but there's a lot I miss, especially from Stannis' arc.

I look forward to Robb taking Karstark's head off.

 

[tokkun]

it seems really odd to me that Cersei wants to kill Trystane, she's all sort of crazy but she has no reason to, she just wants Myrcella back.

Well, it may be that Cersei sees a parallel with her perception of herself and Myrcella, who is described a few time in the books as being more clever and self-disciplined that her brothers, but is put aside in the line of succession due to her gender.

She could be projecting her own feelings about her arranged marriage to Robert on to Myrcella, and of course Cersei's ultimate solution to her own marriage was murder. So it's not that inexplicable of an action for her to take, though I agree that I would have expected to hear more about it in her chapters.

 

[Levi]

A westeros user has this tattoo, commemorating a certain pie in ADWD:

 

[RatskyWatsky]

A westeros user has this tattoo, commemorating a certain pie in ADWD:

That's one of the worst tattoos I've ever seen.

 

[bluemax]

That's terrible.

 

[gdt]

Good god thats horrendous.

"The North Remembers" alone would be an okay tattoo I guess, and just tell people it's about remembering the good and bad or something. And geeks would know whats up.

 

[coldvein]

g r r martan is gonna be doing a reading here in a couple days. why is he doing this! he should be writing the damn books.

 

[blainethemono]

g r r martan is gonna be doing a reading here in a couple days. why is he doing this! he should be writing the damn books.

new chapter? hopefully its a sign that he's working on it if so

 

[iRAWRasaurus]

Since Jeyne Westerling is now Talisa, I guess that means we won't get that awesome AFFC scene where Jaime grills her about whether she's pregnant, and we find out that her mother was secretly giving her some kind of birth-control tea. That scene also had a really touching moment where she refused to give up the crown that Robb had given her. I hope they can find a way to keep that.

The only way I could think the tv show can keep this, if talisa has siblings that are introduce in the next season.

 

[gdt]

g r r martan is gonna be doing a reading here in a couple days. why is he doing this! he should be writing the damn books.

Stop sleeping RR!

 

[Grady Durden]

The first time I read ADWD it was in less than a day. Probably 9 or 10 hours total. Some people read faster than others. I read 107 books last year, and I have a full-time job and other hobbies besides reading.

Drink alcohol. That'll slow you down.

 

[Levi]

Drink alcohol. That'll slow you down.

Gross.

 

[Victarion]

I wanna see Rickon grow and end up flaying Roose Bolton just like his sigil. Jon could do it also but he is not cruel enough, Rickon will be.

 

[Matt]

A westeros user has this tattoo, commemorating a certain pie in ADWD:

Is it just me, or does that look pretty infected?

 

[ShipTheCheese]

I've read this fast all my life--without skipping or skimming. In the third grade I read the Stand (~1200 pages) in a day.

WHAT

 

[gdt]

I wanna see Rickon grow and end up flaying Roose Bolton just like his sigil. Jon could do it also but he is not cruel enough, Rickon will be.

Yep. Rickon will be cruel as fuck, but love his family hardcore. God, can't wait to see him again. I also wonder how Bran will reenter the fold. Will he travel to Castle Black, or further North to The Land of Always Winter...

 

[CassSept]

Rickon going primal would be interesting, but I doubt that, considering that Skaagos is probably relatively peaceful

WHAT

I guess it's possible, I read HP7 in a day as a foreign speaker, so for a native twice that is manageable.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

The problem with Rickon is that he's still really young. I think he's only about 5 now. He was 3 when the story started I think.

 

[Basileus777]

The problem with Rickon is that he's still really young. I think he's only about 5 now. He was 3 when the story started I think.

And that's why he's never going to do anything under his own agency in this series, he's just a tool for others to use.

 

[Puddles]

Rickon is a vestigial character.

He might have had a purpose at some point, but by now he's just there because GRRM wanted to give Ned Stark five kids instead of four. The story would be better off if he simply didn't exist. It's too late to write him out of the past books, but GRRM can solve the problem easily by simply not mentioning him ever again in this series.

 

[Basileus777]

Rickon is a vestigial character.

He might have had a purpose at some point, but by now he's just there because GRRM wanted to give Ned Stark five kids instead of four. The story would be better off if he simply didn't exist. It's too late to write him out of the past books, but GRRM can solve the problem easily by simply not mentioning him ever again in this series.

It's too late for that now that Davos has been sent off to find him.

 

[Arnie]

Rickon is a vestigial character.

He might have had a purpose at some point, but by now he's just there because GRRM wanted to give Ned Stark five kids instead of four. The story would be better off if he simply didn't exist. It's too late to write him out of the past books, but GRRM can solve the problem easily by simply not mentioning him ever again in this series.

But he will be mentioned and he is useful. With Bran now effectively out of the picture for good, Rickon is the heir of Winterfell. He's going to have to, obviously unintentionally, unite the North by being the last living son of Ned Stark. I don't think it'll be long before faux Arya Stark is found out.

 

[Puddles]

It's too late for that now that Davos has been sent off to find him.

If GRRM were to Chuck Cunningham Davos out of the story as well, I'd be fine with that. He's served his purpose. Or maybe he could just report back in Book 7 that Rickon was nowhere to be found, and that could be the end of it.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

Maybe Rickon will die on Skagos and warg into Shaggydog making Shaggy the craziest motherfucking wolf of all time.

 

[Iksenpets]

I think Cersei does hint that there was something secret to Balon Swann's mission in Dorne, but still, you could be on to something.

Cersei wanting Myrcella out of Dorne would fit with her paranoia over her kids, especially with the prophecy of their deaths and her post-Joffrey madness. When she's thinking about Tommen she fears the Tyrells and wants a Dornishman to train him, but when she's thinking of Myrcella the Dornish must be evil and out to get her. Hell, if she had gotten her Dornish knight for Tommen she'd probably start to mistrust him, too.

Plus, this wouldn't explain why Ser Balon got so antsy when Doran proposed travelling by sea.

Also, on the Jeyne theories, I've heard that one about her being switched before, and my heart wants it to be true because King in the North and all that, but my mind is loathe to add another secret identity and giant conspiracy to the plot. It's perfectly possible that Catelyn was just looking with a favorable eye on her new daughter in law, while Jamie was just being more judgmental when looking on this girl who cost a kingdom, especially given that he never seems to look on non-Cersei women in a favorable light. Also, it's always possible GRRM just goofed and forgot what Jeyne's hips looked like.

 

[Steelyuhas]

Yep. Rickon will be cruel as fuck, but love his family hardcore. God, can't wait to see him again. I also wonder how Bran will reenter the fold. Will he travel to Castle Black, or further North to The Land of Always Winter...

I don't see Bran ever going south personally, in fact I wouldn't be surprised if he never left that cave.

 

[1138]

Yep. Rickon will be cruel as fuck

The TV show have already started the forshadowing.

Hopefully Davos will bring him back into the picture and use him to unite the North. I have been waiting for the Starks to come back in full force for so long.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

I don't see Bran ever going south personally, in fact I wouldn't be surprised if he never left that cave.

Yeah, I don't think Bran will ever physically go south again

 

[1138]

Yeah, I don't think Bran will ever physically go south again

I wonder what will happen to Hodor if the Reed stew rumour turns out to be true.

 

[Steelyuhas]

I wonder what will happen to Hodor if the Reed stew rumour turns out to be true.

Well Hodor will go south. He's gotta take the iron throne obviously. Hodor power play. Hodor.

 

[Fowler]

Forgive me for backtracking, but I want to go back to the Jeyne-Westerling-is-not-Jeyne-Westerling thing again, the idea that Robb's real wife has disappeared, presumably to give birth to the new KING IN THE NORTH.

I love this theory. I love the evidence supporting it. I love the idea behind it. I love that in some small way, Robb Stark lives on.

There's just one problem: The TV show.

This isn't to bash the show, but more to point out something practical: There is no way the TV show changes Robb's wife from Jeyne Westerling to random Volantene Talisa if she, or their heir, plays a major part in the series to come. GRRM has apparently told the show runners how he intends to end the series; and you'd assume that they communicate with each other to make sure they're on the same track, right? If Jeyne or their heir were to be important later on, why would they change their identity so drastically? It doesn't make sense to me.

If there's a forthcoming revelation about either Jeyne or Talisa that somehow reconciles their differing identities, I will believe again. But otherwise, I can't see how -- if a character was going to be important, and Robb's heir is important -- GRRM wouldn't have told the TV guys, "hey, you can't do that, it'll screw things up down the line."

 

[Dysun]

Har! Will Tormund and the wildlings destroy the watch for what they did to Jon? I'm really curious about the fallout from that. It would open the story up for an invasion by the Others if it were the case.

Also that theory about Bran eating Jojen in the weirwood paste is creepy as hell, that's a sad fate for the Reed kids if true.

 

[JerkShep]

I just can't figure out how Osha would think that bringing Rickon to Skagos is a good idea. Maybe she has family there, but even the travel itself was dangerous as hell. I suppose there will be new elements about the story of the Skagos people rebelling against the Starks in the past though.

But everybody knows that in the end Stannis will be saved by an army of cannibals riding unicorns lead by Rickon riding Shaggydog.

There's just one problem: The TV show.

This isn't to bash the show, but more to point out something practical: There is no way the TV show changes Robb's wife from Jeyne Westerling to random Volantene Talisa if she, or their heir, plays a major part in the series to come. GRRM has apparently told the show runners how he intends to end the series; and you'd assume that they communicate with each other to make sure they're on the same track, right? If Jeyne or their heir were to be important later on, why would they change their identity so drastically? It doesn't make sense to me.

If there's a forthcoming revelation about either Jeyne or Talisa that somehow reconciles their differing identities, I will believe again. But otherwise, I can't see how -- if a character was going to be important, and Robb's heir is important -- GRRM wouldn't have told the TV guys, "hey, you can't do that, it'll screw things up down the line."

I think that if indeed there's Robb heir somewhere the situation will be played out subtly like a cameo or something. And Jeyne has no support whatsoever, except the Blackfish maybe. Stannis and Manderly are backing Rickon (or maybe Jon now that he is free from the Nightwatch), Littlefinger is behind Sansa. Maybe if the Riverlands rise again against the King they could try to crown Robb's heir as the new King in the North, but I doubt it.

 

[Basileus777]

Forgive me for backtracking, but I want to go back to the Jeyne-Westerling-is-not-Jeyne-Westerling thing again, the idea that Robb's real wife has disappeared, presumably to give birth to the new KING IN THE NORTH.

I love this theory. I love the evidence supporting it. I love the idea behind it. I love that in some small way, Robb Stark lives on.

There's just one problem: The TV show.

This isn't to bash the show, but more to point out something practical: There is no way the TV show changes Robb's wife from Jeyne Westerling to random Volantene Talisa if she, or their heir, plays a major part in the series to come. GRRM has apparently told the show runners how he intends to end the series; and you'd assume that they communicate with each other to make sure they're on the same track, right? If Jeyne or their heir were to be important later on, why would they change their identity so drastically? It doesn't make sense to me.

If there's a forthcoming revelation about either Jeyne or Talisa that somehow reconciles their differing identities, I will believe again. But otherwise, I can't see how -- if a character was going to be important, and Robb's heir is important -- GRRM wouldn't have told the TV guys, "hey, you can't do that, it'll screw things up down the line."

How does changing Jeyne's identity impact her having Robb's child? And stuff that won't be relevant for years and years isn't the showrunners priority, they are already going to have to massively change things if the show lasts that long. And if Robb has a son, he won't be any more important than Rickon, a mere plot device to rally people around.

 

[Steelyuhas]

Forgive me for backtracking, but I want to go back to the Jeyne-Westerling-is-not-Jeyne-Westerling thing again, the idea that Robb's real wife has disappeared, presumably to give birth to the new KING IN THE NORTH.

I love this theory. I love the evidence supporting it. I love the idea behind it. I love that in some small way, Robb Stark lives on.

There's just one problem: The TV show.

This isn't to bash the show, but more to point out something practical: There is no way the TV show changes Robb's wife from Jeyne Westerling to random Volantene Talisa if she, or their heir, plays a major part in the series to come. GRRM has apparently told the show runners how he intends to end the series; and you'd assume that they communicate with each other to make sure they're on the same track, right? If Jeyne or their heir were to be important later on, why would they change their identity so drastically? It doesn't make sense to me.

If there's a forthcoming revelation about either Jeyne or Talisa that somehow reconciles their differing identities, I will believe again. But otherwise, I can't see how -- if a character was going to be important, and Robb's heir is important -- GRRM wouldn't have told the TV guys, "hey, you can't do that, it'll screw things up down the line."

How does changing Jeyne's identity impact her having Robb's child? An I stuff that won't be relevant for years and years isn't the showrunners priority, they are already going to have to massive change things if the show lasts that long.

Yeah I don't think that Robb's wife being Talisa in the show necessarily breaks that Jenye theory. It would be fairly easy for them to place another in that scene, as Jaime had never seen Talisa/Jenye.

 

[Fowler]

How does changing Jeyne's identity impact her having Robb's child? And stuff that won't be relevant for years and years isn't the showrunners priority, they are already going to have to massively change things if the show lasts that long. And if Robb has a son, he won't be any more important than Rickon, a mere plot device to rally people around.

To me that's like saying: Why did Osha help Bran and Rickon escape, and not just some other Stark servant?

I could be putting too much stock into how much GRRM cares about houses and lineage, but to me it seems a Stark heir from a house supposedly allied with the Lannisters would be a big deal. And just on a basic level: You don't change the identity of characters without a reason. It's harder work creating something from scratch that has to fit GRRM's overall story than just copying him. If you're going to change something, it doesn't make sense to change something that could have a major impact. You'd change smaller things, because it's easier.

Ultimately though, I genuinely hope I'm wrong and you're right; like I said, I love the theory and do think it'd be a fun twist if it were true.

What's the Reed stew theory?

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

Rickons main contribution to the story will probably be to fuck up Littlefinger's plan.

The Jojen stew thing is basically the idea the children of the forest fed cooked Jojen to Bran. I haven't gotten to reread ADWD yet, but it seems pretty plausible.

 

[John Dunbar]

I've seen it posted on Westeros.org that Martin was asked about the Jeyne switch and the difference in description (the hips in particular) at some convention or some other event, and he said it was a mistake, that he had just forgotten the earlier description and no one noticed during the editing. It's also apparently fixed in at least some of the translations, but I dunno if it's true or not.

I kinda hope she isn't pregnant, since I don't really see what Baby King in the North would add to the story. I'm more curious about Robb's will.