• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**

Status
Not open for further replies.
Aegon IV is the ancestor of the Blackfyres too, so it wouldn't make sense to hold that only against the legitimate line of Targs. But the Toyne angle is pretty interesting.

To clarify things, I actually lean towards Fake Aegon being a Blackfyre, I was playing a bit of devil's advocate.
True he is the father of the Blackfyre line, but given what he did to House Toyne I'd imagine Blackheart wasn't pleased, and would not lift a finger to help a Targaryen. It was the Blackfyres who offered vengeance to House Toyne as well as the other houses snuffed out by Targaryen rule. They view themselves as the true heirs to the throne and thus view full blood Targaryens as usurpers.
 
I think the Golden Company started out as Blackfyre loyalists. But those guys are long dead, Over time it just became to place to go if you're an exiled noble from Westeros, and the real dream for all of them is just someday go back and reclaim what as stripped from them. Their ancestral home, land, title, etc.

Jon Connington was certainly no Blackfyre supporter and they made him their leader, that just goes to show that they are not as much concerned with the Blackfyre/Targaryen distinction. What they do need, however, is someone with a claim to the IT. Without it they have no hope of actually conquering Westeros.
 
I think the Golden Company started out as Blackfyre loyalists. But those guys are long dead, Over time it just became to place to go if you're an exiled noble from Westeros, and the real dream for all of them is just someday go back and reclaim what as stripped from them. Their ancestral home, land, title, etc.

Jon Connington was certainly no Blackfyre supporter and they made him their leader, that just goes to show that they are not as much concerned with the Blackfyre/Targaryen distinction. What they do need, however, is someone with a claim to the IT. Without it they have no hope of actually conquering Westeros.
Connington didn't lead the golden company.
 

Tubie

Member
This book will be out in 2016, at the earliest.

Following his website I remember him not writing at all after ADWD came out, until early 2012. This is why I think 2015 is too optimistic (I don't think he can write these books in 3 years or less anymore) and 2016 is probably closer to reality, although I would not be surprised at a 2017 release.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AF3pMsi_bU&list=PLHZDkFt4F9fOL_cJCd_ySWaugLkjI2VHK


Comicbookgirl19 issuing her apology to gurm for being over-critical of how fast he's writing.

I understand what she's saying.

I guess I (we?) had just hoped that he would pick up his pace when he saw how fast the HBO show was going, but thats not realistic.

Even if Winds comes out in 2015. We are still looking at another 4 or 5 years for Dream.

So the HBO show is going to finish waaaay before the books anyways. I'm sure Gurm realized that and said fuck it. I'm taking my time, the way I want.
 

Salvadora

Member
Eh, think it's entirely possible to respect the artist while expressing frustrations over the long wait between books.

Don't think he was "forced" to write the book instead of making a cameo on the show either.
 
There's a discussion about Jon Connington going on in the Unmarked spoiler tv thread, I figured I'd respond here. Connington quickly became one of my favorite new characters once he received a POV. One of my favorite moments is him reminiscing about the Battle Of The Bells, and his unwillingness to be completely without mercy. As Blackheart noted, Tywin Lannister would have simply burned the entire village and ended the rebellion right then and there*. That makes me wonder whether Connington will once again be faced with a dilemma like that, and if so will he take the Tywin approach? Aegon is trying to win hearts and minds, but he also doesn't have a lot of time for a prolonged invasion; he needs to hit hard fast, gain allies, and then make a push on King's Landing before KL can recall troops. Garlan Tyrell has a large army that he's leading to the Shield Islands to face the Iron Born invasion, and the Lannister army is stranded and leaderless in the Riverlands due to Jaime disappearing.

I think that Dorne will declare for Aegon and immediately invade the Reach. With Garlan Tyrell preoccupied by Euron Greyjoy's forces in the Shield Isles, Highgarden could potentially be attacked, or a series of smaller castles in the Reach.

------
*With respect to the idea that killing Robert would have ended the rebellion...do you guys believe that? If Robert had died, the rebels would still have a larger army, and perhaps it would become "Ned's Rebellion." I think the biggest wildcard would be Tywin Lannister. If Robert died, Tywin would likely side with the Targaryens which could turn the tides completely.
 
Killing Robert would have ended the rebels chance to win and oust the Targs, it wouldn't have ended the war. Ned and Jon Arryn would have fought on, their lives were at stake if nothing else and Aerys wouldn't have offered mercy like a Tywin would have. I don't think the realm would be at peace until Rhaegar sidelined his father and took control of things.

The Targs are in a difficult situation because if the rebels decide to play it defensively, they have no way of subjugating the North or the Vale without dragons. There's probably a reason they were so obsessed with reviving dragons, without it the Iron Throne is a bit of a paper tiger.
 
A

A More Normal Bird

Unconfirmed Member
Well, who was fighting on the side of the crown in the rebellion? King's Landing/Dragonstone + surrounds, the Reach and Dorne against the Vale, the Riverlands, the North and the Stormlands (plus or minus some elements from each side)? I'm not sure Robert's death would have been enough for Tywin to feel assured of a Targaryen victory.
 

Trojita

Rapid Response Threadmaker
Is the hypothetical, Robert dying at the Battle of the Bells? If so, I could see Rhaegar honestly asking Ned to discuss a ceasefire and talk. The Lannisters may never have even gotten involved, aside from if The Mad King decided to go through his crazy plan (believing Rhaegar planned to usurp him) and Jaime has to put him down.

Alternate history is Ned either taking the throne, leaving Benjen as Lord of Winterfell. What he'd do with Jon Snow (If he is indeed Rhaegar's son) is up in the air. Ned also might have persuaded Jon Arynn to take the throne (It was his Rebellion originally), or he might have been standard Ned and followed the rules, making Viserys the next King. It's anybodies guess how Viserys might have ended up with a few good role models and without being on the run and poor. If Ned took the throne, it is likely Stannis would be the new Lord of Storm's End.
 
Aegon could still be alive in this scenario. Jon Arryn was an old man with no heirs, making him king is just begging for a succession war, he'd be the worst possible candidate.
 

Trojita

Rapid Response Threadmaker
Aegon could still be alive in this scenario. Jon Arryn was an old man with no heirs, making him king is just begging for a succession war, he'd be the worst possible candidate.

Oh fuck, totally forgot about that. Technically Rhaegar dies before the Mad King, so how does succession work?
 
Oh fuck, totally forgot about that. Technically Rhaegar dies before the Mad King, so how does succession work?
Order of death doesn't matter, Rhaegar's sons come before his younger brothers. Daughters would too except the Targs excluded women from the succession after the Dance of Dragons,. Though the rebels could marry Rhaenys off to someone's heir and make a king that way too.
 
A

A More Normal Bird

Unconfirmed Member
Is the hypothetical, Robert dying at the Battle of the Bells? If so, I could see Rhaegar honestly asking Ned to discuss a ceasefire and talk. The Lannisters may never have even gotten involved, aside from if The Mad King decided to go through his crazy plan (believing Rhaegar planned to usurp him) and Jaime has to put him down.

Alternate history is Ned either taking the throne, leaving Benjen as Lord of Winterfell. What he'd do with Jon Snow (If he is indeed Rhaegar's son) is up in the air. Ned also might have persuaded Jon Arynn to take the throne (It was his Rebellion originally), or he might have been standard Ned and followed the rules, making Viserys the next King. It's anybodies guess how Viserys might have ended up with a few good role models and without being on the run and poor. If Ned took the throne, it is likely Stannis would be the new Lord of Storm's End.

If they were choosing a non Targaryen king I'd imagine Stannis would be higher up on the list than Ned or Jon Arryn. The Baratheons had family ties to the throne, Ned probably wouldn't want it and as Basileus said Jon would be too risky given his age and lack of heirs.
 

Trojita

Rapid Response Threadmaker
Hmm I don't know if I could see Ned killing Rhaegar though. Robert may have been asked by Rhaegar to talk, but Robert, who thinks Rhaegar is raping Lyanna, wouldn't agree to talk and just wanted to kill him. The only reason Ned killed the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy IIRC is because they wouldn't let Ned see his sister without a fight per orders of Rhaegar to guard Lyanna from anyone that tries to enter.

If Robert, Rhaegar, and Aerys died and Ned named Aegon the successor, do you think Ned would have stayed as Protector of the Realm to advise Aegon? If not, who would you think would be appointed that position?

Westeros could have also just split into it's original kingdoms as well with no central monarchy after the war.
 

Tubie

Member
If they were choosing a non Targaryen king I'd imagine Stannis would be higher up on the list than Ned or Jon Arryn. The Baratheons had family ties to the throne, Ned probably wouldn't want it and as Basileus said Jon would be too risky given his age and lack of heirs.

Yup this is what Ned would do, look for the lawful heir. This is the guy that never even expected to rule Winterfell, much less the Seven Kingdoms. The Baratheons have Targaryen blood, and it's no ancient thing like the Celtigars or Velaryons. The Baratheons are much closer to the throne than even those older Valyrian-related houses.
 

Trojita

Rapid Response Threadmaker
The BaratheonxTargaryen thing was an afterthought used to somewhat legitimize Robert's usurpation. There is no way Ned would crown Stannis if Aegon was still alive.
 

Tubie

Member
The BaratheonxTargaryen thing was an afterthought used to somewhat legitimize Robert's usurpation. There is no way Ned would crown Stannis if Aegon was still alive.

That's a big if, considering Tywin will always be Tywin. Do you think the Lannisters would waste this chance to take away the throne from that old dynasty forever? It would make strategic sense to throw the realm into question as to who deserves the throne if there's no Targaryen heir.
 

Trojita

Rapid Response Threadmaker
That's a big if, considering Tywin will always be Tywin. Do you think the Lannisters would waste this chance to take away the throne from that old dynasty forever? It would make strategic sense to throw the realm into question as to who deserves the throne if there's no Targaryen heir.

Tywin's best push for power would be Aegon taking the throne with Cersei marrying another important Lord, and their daughter being promised to Aegon. I was going to put "their" in quotation marks since it could of course be Cersei and Jaime's kid like it is now, but then again, if she was married off farther away from Kings Landing, she wouldn't see her brother regularly. Plus there is always a chance she wouldn't abort the child from the Lord she married, like she did with Robert's.
 
That's a big if, considering Tywin will always be Tywin. Do you think the Lannisters would waste this chance to take away the throne from that old dynasty forever? It would make strategic sense to throw the realm into question as to who deserves the throne if there's no Targaryen heir.
Tywin wiped the Targs to ingratiate himself with Robert, there's no reason to believe he was on a vendetta against the entire dynasty, just Aerys.
 

Brakke

Banned
I just hope that if there's a war in the Reach, someone will march on Oldtown only to be stymied by the Maesters deploying a weaponized Tesla coil.
 
They won't decide to delay The Winds of Winter arbitrarily just to space out releases. The book is going to be the best selling book of the year no matter when it comes out. If they decide that it's too close to when the Dunk and Egg collection would be coming out, they'd just delay that (or not, releasing it closer to The Winds of Winter might actually cause more people to pay attention due to general hype around the series).

The 2015 date for TWOW is arbitrary. With the announcement of the D&E collection for 2015, it's likely there wasn't anything planned for that timeframe previously. Once that is established, GRRM will write with that timeline in mind. The added artwork makes the collection a more substantial investment. If it does well, it may interest someone to pickup the tv/movie rights from GRRM.

I would be pleasantly surprised by a 2015 release, but it doesn't seem likely to me.
 

Wh0 N0se

Member
So, rereading the Red Viper-The Mountain fight and I just got to the bit where Oberyn tells Tyrion to come to Dorne when he wins :(

Anyway, he slyly puts in a 'Queen Myrcella'. Can you imagine Doran, Oberyn, Myrcella and Tyrion in Dorne planning a Rebellion?! That would've been crazy! I kind of wish it happened now.
 
So, rereading the Red Viper-The Mountain fight and I just got to the bit where Oberyn tells Tyrion to come to Dorne when he wins :(

Anyway, he slyly puts in a 'Queen Myrcella'. Can you imagine Doran, Oberyn, Myrcella and Tyrion in Dorne planning a Rebellion?! That would've been crazy! I kind of wish it happened now.

Well if Oberyn wins, Tywin doesn't die, and there'd be no chance for the Dornish to rebel.
 
Weren't the Dornish already deep in the whole rebellion plan with Quentyn when Tywin was alive?

Well they never pulled the trigger on it, just like all of Doran's plans than never amounted to anything. Dorne is the weakest of the 7 Kingdoms, they can't launch a successful regime change themselves, unless it's a defensive war they'd get creamed. As long as Tywin is alive, the Lannister/Tyrell alliance would dominate the south until dragons land.
 

Wh0 N0se

Member
Well they never pulled the trigger on it, just like all of Doran's plans than never amounted to anything. Dorne is the weakest of the 7 Kingdoms, they can't launch a success regime change themselves, unless it's a defensive war they'd get creamed. As long as Tywin is alive, the Lannister/Tyrell alliance would dominate the south until dragons land.

Probably true, Oberyn suggests it thinking Tyrion knows where Sansa is, so I guess there plan would've been to unite the North to help them with the rebellion. Of course, Tyrion doesn't tell him about Sansa so that would've been a funny moment when they found that out.

As long as Oberyn was alive the chance of a rebellion was pretty high, he wouldn't have let Tywin get away with Elia's Murder now he had the chance to do something.

Pity he had to mess up big time, why he had to stand on Gregor I'll never know.
 
Bumping to continue discussions from the TV thread...

I agree the theater is one of the best things to happen to Martin. He's the type of person who loves doing events, meeting fans, shooting the shit, etc. The theater allows him to do all that, as much as he wants, without leaving New Mexico. He can work in the morning, head out the lunch, then go to the theater.

Anyone who followed AFFC/ADWD's progress probably noticed that Martin's entire demeanor seems way better now. His blog posts are almost never negative, he's mentioned that he is getting a lot of work done, etc. I'm not saying TWOW will be out next month but I just get a sense that this book isn't a pain in the ass like the last two. Last month he confirmed that he has done significantly less re-writing for TWOW as compared to AFFC/ADWD.
 

CassSept

Member
Bumping to continue discussions from the TV thread...

I agree the theater is one of the best things to happen to Martin. He's the type of person who loves doing events, meeting fans, shooting the shit, etc. The theater allows him to do all that, as much as he wants, without leaving New Mexico. He can work in the morning, head out the lunch, then go to the theater.

Anyone who followed AFFC/ADWD's progress probably noticed that Martin's entire demeanor seems way better now. His blog posts are almost never negative, he's mentioned that he is getting a lot of work done, etc. I'm not saying TWOW will be out next month but I just get a sense that this book isn't a pain in the ass like the last two. Last month he confirmed that he has done significantly less re-writing for TWOW as compared to AFFC/ADWD.

While that may sound like hindsight is 20/20 and all, I guess that's to be expected. He is finally writing the material he had planned from the start, after a long long break. Even if it takes as long as previous books, GRRM is probably less troubled by TWOW since he got over the huge roadblock he set for himself with the timeskip, and then tremendous amounts of work to make it work, then work around it and can now focus again on plotlines that were planned by him from the start.

I don't want to jinx it, but I do agree with many others that predict TWOW to be an amazing book. He is getting back on track and blood will be shed once again after countless fakeouts over AFFC/ADWD. A lot of pieces are in place for things to go down (or to go down after ADWD climax is sorted out) so unless the editor screws up majorly again (I know, it's easy to blame her, but I do believe she is in part responsible for some of the worse decisions that were made in ADWD) this book might be equal parts ASOS-levels of satisfaction and a great set-up for the final installment.
 

Dresden

Member
So long as he cuts down on the dead not staying dead.

---

More people are seeing Anne Groell's comment about the possible eighth book (at least, I saw it on Grantland and there's a thread for it in OT, which means it's as mainstream as it gets, obviously). Kinda amused, but also feel kinda bad for the old man--the venom with which he and his dallying is regarded is really over the top, and it's only going to get worse as the show progresses, and likely overtakes, the novels.
 
I'd be shocked if TWOW isn't good, but also well received by most hardcore fans. I loved ADWD but obviously many (not all) people were disappointed by it, or outright disliked it. I think Martin took a dangerous, tough path splitting AFFC/ADWD but whether people enjoyed them or not it would be very hard to argue they don't set up TWOW very well. Nearly every story is on the precipice of shit hitting the fan. Three battles will be within the first 200, then there's plenty of other stuff that requires immediate action or reaction:

-Dany v the khalasar. We saw a bunch of bloody dragon action in Prince and The Queen, and I'd expect this to be similar.

-Jon and the chaos on the Wall. Is he dead, is he alive, will the Wildlings protect his body, etc. Bowen Marsh is probably fucked.

-The aftermath of Kevan Lannister's death. Will it delay Cersei's trial? Also were more people targeted that night? Seems like Varys pulled out a lot of little birds, more than enough to kill two old men. Maybe other people were killed as well.

-Maergery's trial. It could also be delayed as well. But the thing I'm really wondering about is Loras Tyrell. In one of Cersei's ADWD chapters two septas are talking, and brings up Loras before the other tells her to be quiet. Is Loras alive, is he in the capital...? I like the idea that his wounds were exaggerated to ensure Cersei couldn't pick him in a trial by combat.

-Where is Euron Greyjoy. Is he in the Shield Isles with his men, waiting on the Tyrell army to attack? Or is he in Slaver's Bay...
 

Tubie

Member
What I'm scared of is the story becoming too big and complex for GRRM to ever finish. It also doesn't help that the pace of the story has slowed down a lot after the 3rd book. It's the main reason I'm convinced this is going to (at least) 8 or 9 books.
 
I think its safe to say that tywin would have died anyway. the stench at his death and his funrel heavily hint at him being poisoned, by oberyn.

Safe to say is too strong, the theory doesn't have conclusive evidence. It's possible though.
I'd be shocked if TWOW isn't good, but also well received by most hardcore fans. I loved ADWD but obviously many (not all) people were disappointed by it, or outright disliked it. I think Martin took a dangerous, tough path splitting AFFC/ADWD but whether people enjoyed them or not it would be very hard to argue they don't set up TWOW very well. Nearly every story is on the precipice of shit hitting the fan. Three battles will be within the first 200, then there's plenty of other stuff that requires immediate action or reaction:

-Dany v the khalasar. We saw a bunch of bloody dragon action in Prince and The Queen, and I'd expect this to be similar.

-Jon and the chaos on the Wall. Is he dead, is he alive, will the Wildlings protect his body, etc. Bowen Marsh is probably fucked.

-The aftermath of Kevan Lannister's death. Will it delay Cersei's trial? Also were more people targeted that night? Seems like Varys pulled out a lot of little birds, more than enough to kill two old men. Maybe other people were killed as well.

-Maergery's trial. It could also be delayed as well. But the thing I'm really wondering about is Loras Tyrell. In one of Cersei's ADWD chapters two septas are talking, and brings up Loras before the other tells her to be quiet. Is Loras alive, is he in the capital...? I like the idea that his wounds were exaggerated to ensure Cersei couldn't pick him in a trial by combat.

-Where is Euron Greyjoy. Is he in the Shield Isles with his men, waiting on the Tyrell army to attack? Or is he in Slaver's Bay...
I'm less concerned about the content and more by the changes in his writing style. Hopefully everything isn't still bloated and poorly paced.
 
What I'm scared of is the story becoming to big and complex for GRRM to ever finish. It also doesn't help that the pace of the story has slowed down a lot after the 3rd book. It's the main reason I'm convinced this is going to (at least) 8 or 9 books.

Perhaps. The interesting thing about the three battles is that they all have drastic political consequences that move the story closer to resolution. If Dany's forces prevail in the Meereen battle she'll be the defacto power in the region, and presumably be free to leave Essos with tons of ships, money, and soldiers. If Stannis defeats the Freys outside Winterfell he'll be a step away from eliminating the Lannister's power in the north. And if Aegon wins at Storm's End he will have secured his place in the game of thrones and be a legitimate political alternative to Tommen.

By the end of the book Dany could be in or close to Westeros with a large army, there could be a Stark in Winterfell again (thanks to Stannis), and Aegon could be king. My gripe/complain/disappointment is that all that shit seems like it'll be secondary once the Others truly show up. I wouldn't mind an extra book of Dany v Aegon but instead the Others make the political stuff less important.
 
- EW: George R.R. Martin clarifies his publishing plan, talks 'Thrones' changes
“My plan is to finish in seven,” Martin says. “But my original plan was to finish in three. I write the stories and they grow. I deal with certain things and sometimes I find myself not at the end of a story. My plan right now is still seven. But first I have to finish Book Six. Get back to me when I’m half-way through Book Seven and then maybe I’ll tell you something more meaningful.”

Martin has been consistent on this subject, giving basically the same answer when we asked if he was “firmly committed” to seven books back in 2011 (“I’m as firm as I am,” Martin said, “until I decide not to be firm”).
There's a fair bit more discussion of the TV show via the link, but I'll leave that for the other thread.
 
Anyone know any details about what sort of story we're getting out of this from GRRM?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IWTTPOI/?tag=neogaf0e-20

Targaryen history.

"The Princess and the Queen," Archmaester Gyldayn's somewhat abbreviated account of the Dance of the Dragons, got a great response from all the folks who read it in DANGEROUS WOMEN, so we've dipped back into the archmaester's somewhat disorganized piles of scrolls and crumbling manuscripts, and brought forth another piece of his unpublished history. "The Rogue Prince, or, the King's Brother," will tell the story of the years leading up to the calamitious events of "The Princess and the Queen" during the reign of King Viserys I Targaryen, with particular attention to the role played by the king's brother, Prince Daemon, a rogue if there ever was one. I hope you'll enjoy it as much as you did "The Princess and the Queen."
 

SamVimes

Member
So my sister is reading the italian translations and spoilers alert: it's fucking awful.

She told me that the direwolf at the beginning is killed by a unicorn and Sansa is raven-haired so i did a little digging and apparently this hack made a ton of horrible choices and mistakes: like when Arya says Valar Morghulis in book 2 without knowing what it means it goes:
"Valar Morghulis"
All men must die.

I'm so glad i get to enjoy english-language media exactly as the author envisioned.
 

endre

Member
So my sister is reading the italian translations and spoilers alert: it's fucking awful.

She told me that the direwolf at the beginning is killed by a unicorn and Sansa is raven-haired so i did a little digging and apparently this hack made a ton of horrible choices and mistakes: like when Arya says Valar Morghulis in book 2 without knowing what it means it goes:


I'm so glad i get to enjoy english-language media exactly as the author envisioned.

That's terrible.

On a sidenote, the Hungarian translation is terrific (I read the whole saga in English as well, almost simultaneously). There is something about the HU language that makes fantasy so much better if done by a good translator. Unfortunately the reverse seems to be true for sci-fi, so I am thinking about buying the English version of Neuromancer
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom