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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**

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Pollux

Pollux

Member
I'm fine with the theory as long as it doesn't make Tyrion the bastard Targaryan and Jaime/Cersei Tywin's kids. Other way around works fine.
 
J

John Dunbar

correct about everything
Memento Mori said:
There are few things that I like about it:

1. The parallel that half-brothers Tyrion and Jaime both murder their fathers.
2. The 50:50 odds that a Targaryen is insane works out exactly for Jaime (sane) and Cersei (insane). When you look at their kids- Joffrey (insane), Tommen and Myrcella probably sane considering every character says how nice they are.
3. The only child Tywin actually had is the one he hated.
4. Ironically enough both Joffrey and Tommen would have royal blood even if they aren't legitimate kings.
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in a way it would be more interesting if they had ended up killing each other's fathers. of course since tyrion would be a bastard with no connection whatsoever to his real dad, it would be a hard sell that it would have much of an emotional impact on him.
 
B

badcrumble

Member
Memento Mori said:
There are few things that I like about it:

1. The parallel that half-brothers Tyrion and Jaime both murder their fathers.
2. The 50:50 odds that a Targaryen is insane works out exactly for Jaime (sane) and Cersei (insane). When you look at their kids- Joffrey (insane), Tommen and Myrcella probably sane considering every character says how nice they are.
3. The only child Tywin actually had is the one he hated.
4. Ironically enough both Joffrey and Tommen would have royal blood even if they aren't legitimate kings.
Click to expand...

Aerys's refusal to marry Cersei to Rhaegar would become way more interesting (though I suppose that's only if Aerys knew).
 
Krelian91

Krelian91

Member
Memento Mori said:
There are few things that I like about it:

1. The parallel that half-brothers Tyrion and Jaime both murder their fathers.
2. The 50:50 odds that a Targaryen is insane works out exactly for Jaime (sane) and Cersei (insane). When you look at their kids- Joffrey (insane), Tommen and Myrcella probably sane considering every character says how nice they are.
3. The only child Tywin actually had is the one he hated.
4. Ironically enough both Joffrey and Tommen would have royal blood even if they aren't legitimate kings.
Click to expand...

Yeah I also like that theory for exactly those reasons. Also one more thing, Tyrion calling Joffrey "Aerys the Third". Which would make even more sense if he was his grandson.

Speaking of which, I really like to think that Joffrey was actually Robert's son and that for once the gold beat the coal. All the blood of the War of Five Kings spilled for nothing, knowing GRRM it wouldn't surprise me at all.
 
C

Clipjoint

Member
4. Are there events/characters of TWOIAF that you believe are meant to act as historical backdrops to future events in the story (e.g. the Valyrian/Targaryen etymology of the name Serra (Found in Jaehaerys I's daughter Viserra) acting as a naming precedent for characters such as Serra Mopatis)? If so, might you reveal a name, character or event from TWOIAF that you think has implications for the story going forward?

“Archmaester Rigney once wrote that history is a wheel, for the nature of man is fundamentally unchanging. What has happened before will perforce happen again, he said.”
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I always loved that nod/homage to Robert Jordan (pen name of James Rigney) and the Wheel of Time series.
 
P

PHOENIXZERO

Member
Memento Mori said:
He's just saying that because he wants us to be surprised when he announces the release date in a few months time. 2016 confirmed.



Yeah I wouldn't mind if Jaime and Cersei were Aerys' illegitimate children purely for the irony but Tyrion really should be Tywin's son.
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Yeah, I'd be a lot more fine with that than I would Tyrion being a Targaryen bastard, I actually hate the idea because Tyrion being Tywin's son works so beautifully with or without Cersei and Jaime actually being the result of Aerys getting his way with Joanna.
 
B

Barrylocke

Member
Have you guys decided on what you're going to do to refresh yourselves when TWOW finally comes? I'm not sure if I'm going to reread the books to stay on top of things.

Maybe I should just participate in more online ASOIAF discussion. It's nice that the preview chapters of TWOW aren't in here at least.
 
H

hythloday

Member
bengraven said:
Right. Tywin would have never suggested it if there was even a chance.
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I agree. I like the idea of Cersei/Jaime being Targaryen bastards, because it leaves the delicious truth that the only child Tywin really had was the one he rejected. I just like that scenario better. It's more GRRM-y in my opinion.

The World of Ice and Fire kind of makes one possibility less likely than the other but not enough to stop speculation in my opinion.

Queen Rhaella dismissed Joanna Lannister as a lady-in-waiting soon after her marriage to Tywin, and she went back to Casterly Rock, "seldom" visiting King's Landing thereafter. Cersei and Jaime were not born until 3 years into the marriage, presumably long after she left KL which would mean Aerys didn't knock her up before she was dismissed. But it's still possible Aerys got her pregnant on one of her rare visits back to court.

Tyrion, on the other hand, was born the year after Joanna was known (to readers) to be visiting for a tournament, with Aerys present. The pregnancy could have spanned the end of that year into the beginning of the next, so the timing could work out and Tyrion COULD be a Targaryen. I don't like that idea, but there it is. TWOIAF doesn't really quash either theory but it makes Tyrion's case just a tiny bit stronger.

If I shouldn't spoiler tag that because TWOIAF has been out for a few months now, I can take it out.

Barrylocke said:
Have you guys decided on what you're going to do to refresh yourselves when TWOW finally comes? I'm not sure if I'm going to reread the books to stay on top of things.

Maybe I should just participate in more online ASOIAF discussion. It's nice that the preview chapters of TWOW aren't in here at least.
Click to expand...

I'll probably re-read, but not until the release date is announced. When ADWD came out it had been long enough that I remembered the internet fan theories about the plot better than I remembered the actual plot from the previous books.
 
B

BobTheFork

Member
Does someone have a link to a good explanation to that theory? I thought I went crazy until I scrolled up and saw that the talking points were about another theory.
 
B

Brakke

Banned
Barrylocke said:
Have you guys decided on what you're going to do to refresh yourselves when TWOW finally comes? I'm not sure if I'm going to reread the books to stay on top of things.

Maybe I should just participate in more online ASOIAF discussion. It's nice that the preview chapters of TWOW aren't in here at least.
Click to expand...

I was thinking about reading that thing that reconstructed Feast and Dance into one continuous, chronological volume. But I forgot what it's called o_o. It had a weird title like "bound leather" or something.

EDIT. Aha! I found it. http://boiledleather.com/post/25902554148/a-new-reader-friendly-combined-reading-order-for-a. Anybody try this?
 
B

Barrylocke

Member
Brakke said:
I was thinking about reading that thing that reconstructed Feast and Dance into one continuous, chronological volume. But I forgot what it's called o_o. It had a weird title like "bound leather" or something.

EDIT. Aha! I found it. http://boiledleather.com/post/25902554148/a-new-reader-friendly-combined-reading-order-for-a. Anybody try this?
Click to expand...

I may have to reread that once it comes time to go for 4 and 5.

Actually I may just read 4 and 5. I feel like 1-3's events have stuck to my head tighter than 4 and 5, especially since those two expanded the viewpoints and factions significantly.
 
E

elrechazado

Banned
hythloday said:
I agree. I like the idea of Cersei/Jaime being Targaryen bastards, because it leaves the delicious truth that the only child Tywin really had was the one he rejected. I just like that scenario better. It's more GRRM-y in my opinion.

The World of Ice and Fire kind of makes one possibility less likely than the other but not enough to stop speculation in my opinion.

Queen Rhaella dismissed Joanna Lannister as a lady-in-waiting soon after her marriage to Tywin, and she went back to Casterly Rock, "seldom" visiting King's Landing thereafter. Cersei and Jaime were not born until 3 years into the marriage, presumably long after she left KL which would mean Aerys didn't knock her up before she was dismissed. But it's still possible Aerys got her pregnant on one of her rare visits back to court.

Tyrion, on the other hand, was born the year after Joanna was known (to readers) to be visiting for a tournament, with Aerys present. The pregnancy could have spanned the end of that year into the beginning of the next, so the timing could work out and Tyrion COULD be a Targaryen. I don't like that idea, but there it is. TWOIAF doesn't really quash either theory but it makes Tyrion's case just a tiny bit stronger.

If I shouldn't spoiler tag that because TWOIAF has been out for a few months now, I can take it out.



I'll probably re-read, but not until the release date is announced. When ADWD came out it had been long enough that I remembered the internet fan theories about the plot better than I remembered the actual plot from the previous books.
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I'm a twins are aerys' believer. I base it on a lot of stuff through the books, but the clincher for me was Jamie's vision of brienne and his words "I dreamed of you." Same visions/words were used/foreshadowed multiple times by targs and blackfyres in the dunk and egg stories.
 
R

RatskyWatsky

Hunky Nostradamus
P

PhoenixDark

Banned
More wood for the fire. From his blog:

Dear Mr. Martin,

I just read that you have a lot to do and I think every real fan is extremely excited about this fact and I don't want to hold you back any longer, from writing one of the last books, but is there any chance you could tell me (us) if you will be attending other events or will you have to stay at your castle the whole year? My mother just told me, she bought three tickets for her, my wife and me for an event in Hamburg, Germany the 21. of June. Do you know if this will be canceled?!

Best wishes and happy writing from a big, big fan from Germany.

Julien
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I hope not.

I have cancelled two events. So far I am still planning to attend the others on my schedule.

But that depends in large part on how the work goes. I may be forced to cancel other appearances if I find myself in desperate need of more time. I will do my best to prevent that from happening.
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http://grrm.livejournal.com/412882.html?page=4#comments

Sounds like he has a specific goal in mind.
 
T

Tubie

Member
Paganmoon said:
I see so many broken hearts, hopes, and dreams in our future...
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Yep, please guys don't do this to yourselves!

For all we know he might be working on some new Wild Cards stuff or some random side project and that's what's making him cancel his attendance to some events.
 
J

Jack Remington

Banned
I would be really, really happy if all the birth theory stuff was never touched on. Just not at all. Let it live on forever as a fan theory. I'd love it if we got to the end of Dream of Spring without seeing a single mention of Jon's parents.
 
F

foxtrot3d

Banned
Jack Remington said:
I would be really, really happy if all the birth theory stuff was never touched on. Just not at all. Let it live on forever as a fan theory. I'd love it if we got to the end of Dream of Spring without seeing a single mention of Jon's parents.
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Nah man, that has to be resolved it's a pretty big plot point to remain a "mystery." Also, I've never bought into the whole Mad King fathering any of Tywin's children. All of it comes from Barristan saying that he took "liberties" during her bedding ceremony. Liberties does not mean actual full on rape, I'm pretty sure Barristan would not be coy about that. Second, Tywin would not continue serving as Hand after Aerys raped his wife. And, if you resort to saying "well he didn't know" that's just really weak especially since we're talking about Tywin here. Everyone can't be a secret Targ.
 
P

PhoenixDark

Banned
I don't see how Jon can prove his parentage or how it will matter. One of the most annoying things about most Jon theories is that they seem to ignore what happened in ADWD. Martin doesn't treat death or betrayals lightly. If Jon is dead or dying there will be major consequences to bring him back - who knows if he'll be the same Jon afterwards.

In terms of proving his parentage I haven't seen a decent theory. A somewhat recent one is that Rhaegar's harp is buried with Lyanna. Meh....
 
R

Rodhull

Member
PhoenixDark said:
I don't see how Jon can prove his parentage or how it will matter. One of the most annoying things about most Jon theories is that they seem to ignore what happened in ADWD. Martin doesn't treat death or betrayals lightly. If Jon is dead or dying there will be major consequences to bring him back - who knows if he'll be the same Jon afterwards.

In terms of proving his parentage I haven't seen a decent theory. A somewhat recent one is that Rhaegar's harp is buried with Lyanna. Meh....
Click to expand...

Well Howland Reed was at The tower of Joy and is still alive?
 
R

Rodhull

Member
Yeah if Howland Reed is used at all I'm guessing it would just be to show that Jon came from the Targaryn line and met one of the prophecies for being Azor Ahai.
 
bengraven

bengraven

Member
So Dan and Dan confirmed that they will be spoiling the ending of the books. The major deaths and the way it ends will be directly from the books.

Kind of not sure how I'm going to feel about reading the books after this. I know I won't be able to stay away from the show for the next 5-7 years for the series to be finished. We knew it would happen, but getting it confirmed took that last little bit of hope away.

The GRRM cycle of despair is complete.
 
M

Memento Mori

Member
bengraven said:
So Dan and Dan confirmed that they will be spoiling the ending of the books. The major deaths and the way it ends will be directly from the books.

Kind of not sure how I'm going to feel about reading the books after this. I know I won't be able to stay away from the show for the next 5-7 years for the series to be finished. We knew it would happen, but getting it confirmed took that last little bit of hope away.

The GRRM cycle of despair is complete.
Click to expand...

cwehqyd.gif
 
C

Cornballer

Member
RatskyWatsky said:
link
Click to expand...
Just so you've seen it, but I would like to avoid extensive TV show discussion in this thread. Thanks.

Vanity Fair: Game of Thrones Creators Confirm the Show Will Spoil the Books
Luckily, we’ve been talking about this with George for a long time, ever since we saw this could happen, and we know where things are heading. And so we’ll eventually, basically, meet up at pretty much the same place where George is going; there might be a few deviations along the route, but we’re heading towards the same destination. I kind of wish that there were some things we didn’t have to spoil, but we’re kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place. The show must go on. . .and that’s what we’re going to do.
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bengraven

bengraven

Member
Exterminieren said:
It's only been obvious for... Ooh, five years?


They confirmed it at a talk at the Oxford Union.

Tried to get tickets to it, but no dice.
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This, sorry. I got my source from Nerdist, but when I was trying to link the source my connection went crazy and I became so annoyed I had to step away from the PC for a bit. lol

And it's been "obvious" but rumors have gone around that they would diverge certain things and we've confirmed certain others things having diverged. So it goes to say the outcome could change from the books, but no, it seems like they're diverging, but ending up in the exact same place.

I'm not sure how I feel about reading the books after this. I know I'll probably read the book, but how annoying will it be to read, FOR EXAMPLE, a Davos chapter after knowing Davos is killed on the show.
 
R

Real Hero

Member
bengraven said:
I'm not sure how I feel about reading the books after this. I know I'll probably read the book, but how annoying will it be to read, FOR EXAMPLE, a Davos chapter after knowing Davos is killed on the show.
Click to expand...

Eh, people still reread good books because they are good. If it's a well done book it shouldn't matter really. I would prefer to experience it in the books first sure but I don't see it as a reason to not read them.
 
F

foxtrot3d

Banned
bengraven said:
This, sorry. I got my source from Nerdist, but when I was trying to link the source my connection went crazy and I became so annoyed I had to step away from the PC for a bit. lol

And it's been "obvious" but rumors have gone around that they would diverge certain things and we've confirmed certain others things having diverged. So it goes to say the outcome could change from the books, but no, it seems like they're diverging, but ending up in the exact same place.

I'm not sure how I feel about reading the books after this. I know I'll probably read the book, but how annoying will it be to read, FOR EXAMPLE, a Davos chapter after knowing Davos is killed on the show.
Click to expand...

Well speaking as someone who watched the show first then the books, the devil is in the details. I knew that Ned was going to die and Robb Stark would be Caesar'd but I read all the books anyway and enjoyed them tremendously as they added so much more that the shows left out.
 
C

cashman

Banned
George RR Martin ‏@GRRM

It's official, Highgarden and Casterly Rock will appear in The Winds of Winter. #ASoIaF
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Sounds like he is really working hard on that book Or am I missing some kind of joke?
 
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