Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. |OT| Tahiti is a Magical Place (to...Hey guys, I found it!)

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R

Red Arremer

Member
coolasj19 said:
In response to the current debate, there's only three outcomes to the test.
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Agreed.
Aside from that, you also have to consider these factors:
- The entire base was entirely wrapped in an outright war between the 2 factions. Hand and her people were basically constantly under fire, and everybody inside of the building could potentially be hostile.
- There is no surefire way to make somebody's allegiance certain in such a short notice and without risking your own operation getting destroyed outright.
- You want to take out each and every factor that is potentially threatening your life and strategic position.

Hand wasn't able to take any chances. If the agent she was threatening said "Yes, I'll join Hydra", there's no way to make certain that it was either an actual traitor or somebody who pretended to be one to counter-infiltrate Hydra.
 
G

Gemüsepizza

Member
Jest Chillin said:
Yeah, no I'm not buying it. If somebody is given an assignment to infiltrate an organization, sure. I can believe that. But to just switch sides in a moment because your life is on the line? Nope. Not the type of resolve that I'd want in someone who's supposed to have my back.
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I don't care what you believe. Acting like somebody who is loyal to SHIELD would not lie is dumb.

And your empty gun test only finds out if the person you give the gun to is Hydra. It doesn't verify the other at all. It also fails if both people claim allegiance to Hydra.
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50% correct is better than two false positives. The best option is to do a real loyality test like I described, or, if that is not possible, to just arrest them - and not to shoot them.

coolasj19 said:
In response to the current debate, there's only three outcomes to the test.

1. They pledge complete loyalty to SHIELD. This is the best outcome, as this person refuses to help the enemy in any way and has very clearly shown to honor SHIELD over their own life. You can trust these people.

2. They switch sides to HYDRA wholey and completely. Rotten people who either can't be trusted or are cowards. Do not trust these people.

3. They pretend to switch to HYDRA to go deep undercover and run espionage. They can not communicate to you their plan to run the long con and have committed to helping HYDRA at least in some capacity. These people could easily be part of option 2. Do you really trust these people? What are you gonna do, give everyone the benefit of the doubt?

Yes, no, and maybe. I think I'd just take option 1.
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Your point 3 is not entirely complete. I wasn't really talking about a sophisticated, spontaneous undercover operation. I was more talking about getting my ass out of a sudden life and death situation, in order to attack at some time in the following minutes.

Red Arremer said:
Agreed.
Aside from that, you also have to consider these factors:
- The entire base was entirely wrapped in an outright war between the 2 factions. Hand and her people were basically constantly under fire, and everybody inside of the building could potentially be hostile.
- There is no surefire way to make somebody's allegiance certain in such a short notice and without risking your own operation getting destroyed outright.
- You want to take out each and every factor that is potentially threatening your life and strategic position.

Hand wasn't able to take any chances. If the agent she was threatening said "Yes, I'll join Hydra", there's no way to make certain that it was either an actual traitor or somebody who pretended to be one to counter-infiltrate Hydra.
Click to expand...

This just means that her test was bad. Not that she had no other choice. If in doubt, arrest them.
 
N

neoanarch

Member
anaron said:
I think after next week's episode it would be fair to have unspoiler barred discussion but that's me.

It's a tough call, but I think it's an inevitability that the design of this show existing in a wider and current universe calls for.
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Pai Pai Master said:
There's way more to the movie than what they spoiled in tonight's ep. I say we wait and see what the next episode brings, as it's supposedly the last direct tie in to TWS?
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The episode expects you to have seen TWS and the only things not mentioned on the show are
Fury being alive and Armin Zola.
 
Duane Cunningham

Duane Cunningham

Member
Okay, I haven't seen tonight's episode yet, but it's DVRd. I just saw last week's, and loved it. Can I go on and watch tonight's episode too, or should I go see TWS first? Because I may go see it within the next couple of days anyway.


(Apologies if recent posts have asked the same thing, but I don't want to skim the most recent posts and get spoiled.)
 
W

WesternHeretic

Member
Duane Cunningham said:
Okay, I haven't seen tonight's episode yet, but it's DVRd. I just saw last week's, and loved it. Can I go on and watch tonight's episode too, or should I go see TWS first? Because I may go see it within the next couple of days anyway.


(Apologies if recent posts have asked the same thing, but I don't want to skim the most recent posts and get spoiled.)
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I would watch TWS first...
 
C

coolasj19

Why are you reading my tag instead of the title of my post?
Gemüsepizza;107515499 said:
Your point 3 is not entirely complete. I wasn't really talking about a sophisticated, spontaneous undercover operation. I was more talking about getting my ass out of a sudden life and death situation, in order to attack at some time in the following minutes.
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We don't really have an outcome for hypothetical option 3. I doubt they'd hand you a gun the moment you said yes either. If you're a SHIELD agent and you wanna cause some damage, the quickest way to do that is steal someone's gun and start shooting. And if you were just talking to save your ass, I don't know how you became a SHIELD agent in the first place. That's just disgraceful. Hell! Even Fitz shed a tear and told him what's-his-name to fuck off.
Gemüsepizza;107515499 said:
This just means that her test was bad. Not that she had no other choice. If in doubt, arrest them.
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We don't actually know if they were actually going to shoot, since it never happened. I'm running on the basis that I think Hand would order a killshot, and doesn't want anything short of complete loyalty. Hell, this is why we have people thinking Ward might be a triple agent.

2nd EDIT : No matter how convuluted this argument gets, I still believe wholly in my post at the top of the page.
 
A

anaron

Member
Cornballer said:
Eh, most of the broad strokes that were addressed tonight in the episode are fine and good, but I don't know if we should be talking about minor plot points from TWS since they're not necessarily relevant here. Let's keep the tags going for at least another week and then we can assess.
Of course. It's already aired. Just tag preview discussion and stuff from TWS that wasn't mentioned tonight. Make sure to label your tags so we know what's from TWS and what's from the preview. Thanks.
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Oh, I'm totally fine with that and it's definitely not necessary spoiling things like
pierce, bucky, Sitwell, etc
 
J

Jest Chillin

Member
Gemüsepizza;107515499 said:
I don't care what you believe. Acting like somebody who is loyal to SHIELD would not lie is dumb.
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Really? Oath's mean a hell of a lot in any organized force. It's taken very seriously. What you think is acceptable is not at all acceptable regardless of what you think is dumb.

Gemüsepizza;107515499 said:
50% correct is better than two false positives. The best option is to do a real loyality test like I described, or, if that is not possible, to just arrest them - and not to shoot them.
Click to expand...

Except it's not 50% correct at all. It's a 50% chance of finding one possible traitor. Getting that wrong would result in your death and the death of others.
 
M

Mariolee

Member
MARIOLEE'S BIG BETS FOR AGENTS OF SHIELD:

1. Garrett isn't really the Clairvoyant. It'll be TWS SPOILERS
Armin Zola
, it's why Garrett himself never states he is the Clairvoyant IIRC.

2. Like many others said, Ward will have a change in heart and go back to SHIELD, but his character provides an easy way for the writers to also keep audiences interested and up to date with what's happening on the Hydra side of things.

3. Triplett (sp?) will leave as soon as Ward gets back to the team shortbus since he's basically just the replacement muscle for the team while Ward is away.

4. Hand is really dead. They can't keep bringing back people from the dead or else every death will lose its value. It already has for the most part.

5. Deathlok also turns good by the end of the season thus completing what I think the writers believe is an "arc". They started the show with Peterson coming to terms with his powers, and now they're ending it with him finally doing it.
 
L

Lone_Prodigy

Member
Loved this episode, especially the betrayals. May/Coulson was the best IMO; even though it had nothing to do with Hydra and no one really did anything wrong, Coulson feels so alone now. Garrett is a traitor, May and Fury were snooping behind their back, S.H.I.E.L.D is gone. Probably explains why Amy Acker will show up.
 
S

SRG01

Member
Cornballer said:
- EW: 'Agents of SHIELD' postmortem: Jeff Bell and Jeph Loeb on what Ward's new role means for the series
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LOEB: We’ll give you one that’s a lot of fun, and that’s in “Seeds,” episode 12. Towards the very end, there’s a lovely, heartwarming moment where Skye is standing in front of the fallen S.H.I.E.L.D. agents through the decades. Watch that scene, and keep an eye on Ward.
BELL: And what she’s saying as you’re looking at him.
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Not sure if I should be spoilering the interview, but just in case. Has anyone checked this?
 
H

HeySeuss

Member
Mariolee said:
MARIOLEE'S BIG BETS FOR AGENTS OF SHIELD:

5. Deathlok also turns good by the end of the season thus completing what I think the writers believe is an "arc". They started the show with Peterson coming to terms with his powers, and now they're ending it with him finally doing it.
Click to expand...

I dunno. He gets his orders from the clairvoyant but that doesn't mean he's the one at the computer monitoring him. We've seen the guy behind the keyboard and it wasn't Paxton. I think it will happen, but not until next season.
 
A

antonz

Member
The intro of the episode is so awesome in retrospect when you see the whole thing because it has a whole new dimension. Suddenly you realize Garrett must be wondering if Shield caught wind of who he really is instead of Hydra hunting him as assumed at the start
 
M

Mariolee

Member
LOEB: But we want to caution everybody that just in the same way that our team is going to be divided, we expect that there are people out there — particularly if you’ve seen Winter Soldier, and you know the story of the Winter Soldier and you know the story of what Hydra is capable of doing to your mind — who will ask, what is the reality of who you can trust? And whether or not a person is all bad, made bad, might not be bad…it’s all good stuff.
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lol yup Ward is turning good again.
 
A

antonz

Member
SRG01 said:
Okay, I'll remove it!

edit: Is it when she sees Bucky's name on the list?
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Skye is looking at the Agents name who saved her and behind her is Ward with a smirk on his face while voiceover Coulson says the world is full of evil and lies and pain and death and can't hide from it can only face it.
 
J

Jest Chillin

Member
antonz said:
Skye is looking at the Agents name who saved her and behind her is Ward with a smirk on his face while voiceover Coulson says the world is full of evil and lies and pain and death and can't hide from it can only face it.
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"... the question is.. when you do... how do you respond? Who do you become? "

Edit: and She's looking at L. Avery's name at the time. The clip is on Hulu titled "Skye Chooses Her Path"
 
S

Snake

Member
I would be extremely pleased with the developments of this episode if I wasn't practically certain that Ward's actions are purely temporary and/or merely designed to infiltrate the enemy.

Still, it was a good episode.
 
D

Dryk

Member
Gemüsepizza;107515499 said:
50% correct is better than two false positives. The best option is to do a real loyality test like I described, or, if that is not possible, to just arrest them - and not to shoot them.
Click to expand...
100% with false positives is safer than 50% correct with no false positives in this scenario. Lots of innocent people will end up dead yes, but it completely mitigates the risk. It's exactly the sort of decision that Victoria Hand would make.
 
T

Thunder Monkey

Banned
Knowing what this show is becoming now it really should be making execs kick themselves for their excessive meddling.

Unless this jumps viewership by a good 5 million viewers... what was the point in dawdling like they did? They wasted the goodwill built by the Avengers on... what? It premiered really damn high, and is now sitting marginally higher than CW stuff. If this doesn't help a lot... are they going to rethink the gameplan? Or are we going to go into another holding pattern next year waiting for the ramifications of the next movie?
 
E

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
Just watched TWS and AoS back to back.

My mind is full of fuck. Not sure how I feel about the latest episode, but I guess they succeeded in whatever they were intending to do by making it very ambiguous ATM where Ward's allegiances lie.

Right now I'm just trying to soak up as much as I can. Really interested in where they take S.H.I.E.L.D. now. To be safe, TWS spoilers:
The dissolution of S.H.I.E.L.D. and Fury being out of reach proposes that we'll see a rebuilding of the organization or at least a counter-Hydra organization in Avengers of Ultron and the show will work to do so until then.

I really hope they do something interesting with the resistance/Hydra dynamic though. I don't want this to turn into episode after episode of Hydra getting close to eliminating them and them being triumphant like every episode. They've been on the paper trail too long and the momentum is too good right now. I feel like it's dabbled in trust issues a lot so much already and I'm not sure if more of that is a good thing. With Hand out of the picture, I really do want to see a stark shift in team dynamics at the very least, and I have a feeling we will get that.
 
T

Thunder Monkey

Banned
golem said:
The reactions in here are almost GOT levels
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Last few episodes have been good to great by any TV standard, but good God does the payoff for the first 2/3rds of the show seem weak for what Marvel/Disney sacrificed.

Around 8 million viewers have been lost in the botched lead up to Winter Soldier. Which was freaking terrific btw. I mean I'll be here until cancellation but it's just baffling that Marvel and Disney would let it happen.

Unless of course the show was only intended to be an advertisement for movie stuff.
 
T

trinest

Member
Am I the only one who thinks Ward is probably deep cover? Didn't he and Colson give each other a weird look at the end before that scene?
 
A

antonz

Member
trinest said:
Am I the only one who thinks Ward is probably deep cover? Didn't he and Colson give each other a weird look at the end before that scene?
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Really hard to say. They will have another crazy twist I am sure. Tripplet exchanged some long looks at the end with Ward.

One things for sure next weeks episode still falls in during the Winter Soldier movie frame so should be pretty exciting still
 
E

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
trinest said:
Am I the only one who thinks Ward is probably deep cover? Didn't he and Colson give each other a weird look at the end before that scene?
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I feel like offing Hand may be too deep to justify, even if they are taking this in a sort of rag tag route.
 
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