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Alex Ward [Criterion] on Burnout PSP, Black and the future

Solid

Member
http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=56163

Visit Eurogamer for the full interview.

On Black

Eurogamer: Can you talk about your shooter?

Alex Ward: I can talk very little about it, yeah [smiles]. Depends, what do you want to ask?

Eurogamer: What can you say about it is the easiest way I suppose?

Alex Ward: Ever since we signed Burnout 1 we wanted to do an FPS. I'm a big fan of console FPS. We're setting out to make a console shooter on PS2 and Xbox. And on PS2 our competition is Medal of Honor, Red Faction and Killzone. And can we make a game that's as good if not better than those games? Absolutely.

Eurogamer: Presumably your technology should be good enough to make it look fantastic?

Alex Ward: Well a lot of our R&D, our technology demos, are often based around shooting. But we've got some ideas - that scene is dominated by the PC and there's a split between console and stuff. We want to make a shooter just like Burnout that changes the way that genre is perceived.

Eurogamer: Do for the FPS what Burnout did for racing?

Alex Ward: Absolutely right. Burnout with guns. Because with GT4 coming out, for the first time people have given them a tough time and complained that you can't wreck the cars. And I think if we'd never made Burnout... Well they would always say that, but now they definitely want to say it.

Eurogamer: Do you have any idea when you are likely to ship Black?

Alex Ward: We were originally tracking for next year so we'll probably say end of 2005, early 2006.

On the future

Eurogamer: And are you working on next-gen stuff?

Alex Ward: Not at the moment.

Eurogamer: Why's that?

Alex Ward: Busy finishing Burnout. There's too much stuff to look at here and now without worrying what's coming in the future. Although we keep informed with those guys and we kind of know some of the stuff that's coming down the line...

Eurogamer: It's looming though. It's not far off now really is it?

Alex Ward: You tell me [smiles].

Eurogamer: Well we're looking at probably Xbox 2 launching at the end of next year in the US, maybe...

Alex Ward: Yeah. Maybe we'll do something for that, I don't know. At the moment though, we're not. We're following the development and we know what's going on, but following Burnout 3 the next thing we'll get to work on really is PSP.
 
That last part looks EXTREMELY non-committal for Xenon. No chance of a launch game certainly and it sounds as if they don't even have dev systems. Of courese, it sounds the same for the PS3, but that's another year out from Xenon, presumably.
 

IJoel

Member
sonycowboy said:
That last part looks EXTREMELY non-committal for Xenon. No chance of a launch game certainly and it sounds as if they don't even have dev systems. Of courese, it sounds the same for the PS3, but that's another year out from Xenon, presumably.

They are multi-platform developers. They will certainly wait until at least 2 platforms are out to release a game. Of course, this eliminates any possibility of an Xbox 2 launch exclusive.
 

Lord Error

Insane For Sony
You should see some of the comments Alex and his team has made over PSP at E3 (last month issue of OPM has dev quotes about PSP) It's hard to put into words how thrilled they are about it.
 

Funky Papa

FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Alex Ward: Ever since we signed Burnout 1 we wanted to do an FPS. I'm a big fan of console FPS. We're setting out to make a console shooter on PS2 and Xbox. And on PS2 our competition is Medal of Honor, Red Faction and Killzone. And can we make a game that's as good if not better than those games? Absolutely.
[cockles] Hey Alex, what's your competition on Xbox? ;) [/cockles]
 
Funky Papa said:
[cockles] Hey Alex, what's your competition on Xbox? ;) [/cockles]

LOL! It was such an obvious omission that I had to laugh when I read him listing of the PS2 FPS'. Clearly he's not wanting to draw comparisons at this point.
 

ourumov

Member
Alex Ward is one of the few persons of the industry I hate (along Tomonobu Itagaki). It was hilarious when he talked about GC and the difficulties they had porting Burnout 2.
 

ge-man

Member
ourumov said:
Alex Ward is one of the few persons of the industry I hate (along Tomonobu Itagaki). It was hilarious when he talked about GC and the difficulties they had porting Burnout 2.

What did he say? I find it interesting that there is so little interest from Criterion in terms of Nintendo. Last year Ward posted on Jeff Minter's forum expressing his admiration for the guy. Jeff is a big fan of Burnout and his good words about it convinced me to give it a chance actually. Anyway, what I find funny about the whole matter is that Jeff is also a big fan of the GC and many of the people who read his forum and blog are GC fans. On top of that, I'm sure a few were like me and bought Burnout 2 on Jeff's recommmendations.

Alex's posts seem so odd now since it's apparent that Criterion is not interested in Nintendo systems.
 

Solid

Member
Jacobi said:
? I thought Black was a PS2-exclusive.
Time-exclusive I believe. Black won't come out on Xbox at least 4-6 month after the PS2-version. Almost like Splinter Cell on Xbox - then PS2.
 
Deepthroat said:
Time-exclusive I believe. Black won't come out on Xbox at least 4-6 month after the PS2-version. Almost like Splinter Cell on Xbox - then PS2.

With a late 2005 release, I'd bet on a simulataneous release. I think earlier they were planning for a first-half 2005 release.

Really, what would be the point of releasing a "big" game for the Xbox in 2006, when Xenon is already on the market?
 

Solid

Member
Okay, cowboy ;)

920890_20040706_screen001.jpg


This game will be awesome! And look gorgeous! :)
 

Zer0

Banned
wait until i see this fucker on motion

its a sight to behold

finest destruction engine on the genere
 

kaching

"GAF's biggest wanker"
Fantastic to hear that it was an early version of Burnout 3 that they got running on the PSP. Late gen PS2 software already running in some form on what was probably not even finalized PSP dev kits bodes well for the comparative software quality on PSP as it matures.
 

Solid

Member
Eurogamer has a Burnout 3 interview with Alex Ward up now. I'll quote some things. Just check Eurogamer.net for the full interview.

http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=56165

Eurogamer: What have you done in Burnout 3 that you didn't do in the others?

Alex Ward: Online is probably the big thing. Online has driven the whole design. Offline and online, trying to make the offline game the same as the online game, trying to make sure there's not a difference between the two.

Eurogamer: What online modes are there?

Alex Ward: Everything. There's every race mode bar one. So you've got... obviously Crash mode online (two-to-eight players), racing (six players online), and you can race single race, you can race Road Rage, which is a race where we've got persistent damage on the cars, where you have to do as many Takedowns as possible. You can do a GP, you can do a series of races. The only race mode you can't do online is Eliminator. Eliminator is a five-lap race where one person gets knocked out each time. The reason that's not online is because if you're the host, if you're last and you get knocked out, it's going to kill the game. You're not going to let everyone race for five... What would you do while they race for five laps? So that's the only mode [that's not online].

Eurogamer: Do you have some kind of leader board as well?

Alex Ward: Yeah you can upload all your stats and your profile and everything onto the EA network on Xbox Live and PS2, so you're tracking all your profile, number of Takedowns and everything.

Eurogamer: There were an insane number of stats in the last one. Is there even more or has it been cut down?

Alex Ward: There's not as much being uploaded to online, because you have to try and guard against offline people cheating and then trying to upload to online leader boards and stuff. But yeah, Crash mode is online, two players, head-to-head split-screen, co-operative Crash, competitive Crash, two players or split-screen or online. So yeah, online has driven the whole thing.

Eurogamer: Graphically it seems to be something of a benchmark...

Alex Ward: I said at E3, 'we're taking the piss with this, aren't we, on the PS2?' [Smiles]

Eurogamer: You really are taking the piss. It's staggering. How have you managed to do all this crazy stuff that you're doing?

Alex Ward: Well as a studio we probably specialise on PS2. Again, Criterion's been working on PlayStations probably from very early. Our big mistake was not doing a game for launch. I think they probably could of done, if they had the system early enough. So from Burnout 1 to our first game, that was 60 frames, and we pushed it pretty hard - at the time. Then we leapt to Burnout 2 and we made a big leap.

Eurogamer: That was a huge leap, wasn't it?

Alex Ward: A huge leap, and it was like no other PS2 game.

Eurogamer: But this is almost as big a leap again from what we've seen.

Alex Ward: On the PA, on the performance analyser side, our graphics team are all really smart guys, they just live and breathe PlayStation hardware, getting the most out of the system, going beyond what's happening on Xbox.

Eurogamer: Who's the sort of technical genius behind all this?

Alex Ward: Oh there's, there's... They all are. I mean, our Burnout team programmers and graphics guys are all... They've got a lot of smart people, and we're pushing so hard. I mean, audio - we're practically melting the machine [with] the amount of audio that's happening on PS2. Visually Burnout 2 at the time we thought right, bang, that's 90 per cent of the PS2 right there. But after we were done, we took some time out, and when we really had a good look at it on our performance analyser they suddenly realised with a lot of optimisation that was probably 50, 60 per cent, with 40 per cent extra to find. So they've gone out there just improving the detail of textures; more cars in the race - you know, there's five other guys with you in Burnout, it's a six-player race, so it makes for a more exciting race, a more competitive race; turning it up with audio, the stuff we're doing with engine sounds, what we're doing in surround, you know, turning it up. More cars on the track, more detail in the world. So it just really got there. So this time this is it. I think this has got to be 90 per cent of the PS2. Which means there's another 10 per cent there, and they're still looking for it.

Eurogamer: So presumably there is, as you stay, still more in the tank on the PS2...

Alex Ward: We just set out deliberately to make the PS2 version look like the best Xbox game you've ever seen.

Eurogamer: It pretty much does. You could have said that about Burnout 2 to be honest.

Alex Ward: Yeah. And we were happy. And we're really happy with it this time, so we've done parallel development this time. But a lot of other companies are just, they're PC developers and they're working on Xbox and they're going down to PS2, whereas we're the other side; we're starting on PS2, and then go onto Xbox. So some of the Xbox guys might be thinking 'oh but when you go down to Xbox it's not as good', but I don't think you could really look at the game this time and say 'oh that's a bit rubbish on Xbox', because, well we've looked at all the other Xbox racers. I think you could stand it side by side with Forza or something. I think what we're doing with reflections, what we're doing with texture detail, the game looks glorious.

Eurogamer: Are any other developers sub-licensing this technology? Is it built into the latest RenderWare for example?

Alex Ward: No it's not yet, but there's a lot of things shared. I mean, the Burnout guys, a lot of their developments and breakthroughs and stuff then support the other side of the company, so they just live and breathe for pushing the PS2. And once this is done, they'll get to work pushing the PSP.

Eurogamer: Is this still on track for October release, or...?

Alex Ward: Yeah we're really on track. It's early September. At the moment I think it's the 10th. I mean, they're working on that, it might change, but yeah, it should be the 10th of September on PS2 and Xbox.

Eurogamer: Do you think it's going to really succeed commercially now that EA has got its hands on it?

Alex Ward: Well I mean the previous two did. They were both million-sellers.

Eurogamer: But they're not happy with million-sellers though, they want four-million-sellers.

Alex Ward: Well I suppose in a year when a lot of UK companies have collapsed and closed and all this stuff, and not really sold and not had any big successes, Burnout like TimeSplitters was one of those new IPs on PlayStation that was an original IP. So the first two were really bloody successful. Always more so in Europe than America, so this time, you know, we don't want to be Robbie Williams, we want to be The Beatles. You want to break America. That's key to us, so EA... The whole EA thing's been great for us. They've pushed us, we've made a better game. This is EA, they tend to know what they're talking about.

Eurogamer: How did the deal come about?

Alex Ward: I think it just came about that we were wanting to do the next game, we talked to different partners, and online is a key thing. And EA was the partner that could deliver online for us easily. And they had experience of putting online games out. If we'd gone for any other publisher they might have one game out on PS2 Online, and we'd probably have to use a third party technology. Whereas EA, they've already got the online infrastructure, they've shipped ten, fifteen titles, two versions on PS2 Online. They're more ahead with online almost than Sony are. So it's really easy to talk to the guys who took Tiger Woods online in two goes, who put SSX online and NASCAR and FIFA. So online has been easy. We've been running online since November.

Eurogamer: Obviously when you first signed it, EA weren't doing Xbox Live stuff. Was that an issue?

Alex Ward: Yeah, right out of the blue, so we were happy. We got told about that very late in May.

Eurogamer: Because I remember when we first got told about Burnout 3 it seemed bizarre that it wasn't on Live...

Alex Ward: Absolutely, yeah. There was no agreement signed and we went to E3 with two versions. We knew the first day... We didn't go to the conference, but we got a fax, so we had two versions at E3 ready to go. If it happened, we had Xbox Live that could connect from the EA booth to Microsoft. The Sony version's always been done, that was online since November. But Microsoft, yeah, we were testing on Live literally the week before but still we were told 'nothing's signed yet, there's no agreement, if it happens, it happens, if it doesn't, it doesn't'. So we had two versions ready to go.

Eurogamer: Why isn't there a GameCube version?

Alex Ward: Because there's no online. The online networked experience has influenced so much of the offline game, you just would have been half-hearted on GameCube. You're going to have this killer online experience on PlayStation and Xbox. All the modes, everything makes sense, because you can play online and offline. If we were only going to make an offline game, it had to be different. Nobody wants to make just an offline game any more. Everyone wants an online component.

Eurogamer: Do you play the GT series?

Alex Ward: Yeah, I've got my memory card and I've got three saves of GT3. I've always been into it but I've never really played it much on PlayStation 1. But GT3 took up a lot of time. I finally found out what the fuss was about.

Eurogamer: What is the fuss about, because I haven't got it either...

Alex Ward: GT3 is like reading, I don't know, Lord of the Rings. If you read all three... And I hate Lord of the Rings, so I dunno, I, uh. I stole the books from the school library when I was younger and I read them and I was mightily bored and I gave up. But GT3, when it's really there it's really there. And the real magic and beauty of that game is that you can race one track in a front-wheel drive car, and then you unlock a four-wheel drive car, and you race the same track again, and it's the only game in the world where you can feel the improvement. You can feel the handling, so then when you race that track in an F1 car, you realise how genius the course design is. You finally see a racetrack on different levels. And you don't see that in TOCA and you don't see that in Gotham...

Eurogamer: With TOCA 2 I did find that actually...

Alex Ward: ...You're sitting there, and you're finding the corners, and the pattern of the bends in a different way. And when it clicks... It doesn't click for about three and a half hours, but when it clicks, it's magical. And it's a great game. Paul Clancy who works for Criterion has a good line on this, and Paul says, 'GT is great if you love cars and you love games'. If you love videogames and don't like cars, you're not going to get much out of it. Similarly, if you're really into cars, and you don't like games, then you're not going to get much out of it either. But if you kind of like both it's really there. But if you don't like GT and you still think Sega Rally on Saturn and Sega Rally 1 in the arcade is just magical, then that's what Burnout's about. We share that arcade feeling. And you know there's only us and Namco left making an arcade racer.

Eurogamer: So what are you targeting for sales this time, or are you not going to put your neck on the line yet?

Alex Ward: It's got to be as successful as last time.

Eurogamer: What did it do last time?

Alex Ward: [Smiles] You can find the figures on the Internet. They're both beyond a million-seller.

Eurogamer: I know what it did in the UK, but I don't know what it did outside.

Alex Ward: The split between Europe and America was probably 80 per cent of the sales were from Europe. I mean, Burnout 2 was one of the biggest games in France ever. There's a phenomenal number in France. But again this game works because everyone digs the arcade vibe. The game's come out in Japan recently - Burnout 2 just came out - but Burnout 3, EA Japan are really excited about it and it'll get a splash in Japan. And we're going to TGS to show the game and we're excited about that because I've always believed that they'd dig the game in Japan because it's an arcade game... It's a Western game made with some Eastern values.

Eurogamer: What's the music like in Burnout 3?

Alex Ward: It's all licensed tracks this time. It's a real sort of punk rock track.

Eurogamer: Is that through EA's Trax?

Alex Ward: Yeah EA Trax. We've got The Ramones in there, we've got Faith No More...

Eurogamer: Is that stuff you directed in any way?

Alex Ward: Yeah they have a very cool guy over here, and he works outside dealing with all the music, and he's been doing all the music, picking all the bands, picking people, I dunno, Avril Lavigne, and Avril Lavigne did a gig in the cafeteria at EA Canada apparently just before she broke and went on to sell millions of records. So I originally wanted a very R&B sound for the game, I was thinking it's got to be something like Underground, with an urban flavour. And they were saying look, the way it's happening, rock or punk is going to break again in America, and so they just came out with loads of tracks, and we're listening to them all and we listen and if after ten seconds it sounded good, it was going down. We've got a really good soundtrack to the game, and it's helped really define the personality and attitude of Burnout this time, which has always changed from 1 to 2 and is going to change from 2 to 3. But it's got this kind of rebel attitude to it. All the team are loving it as well, and I think that's rare, you know - you normally can't please everyone with music. But it's a toe-tapping soundtrack. It is good.

Burnout 3: Takedown is due out on PS2 and Xbox this September... 10th, by the sound of it. Watch out for our first impressions of the game in the very near future.
 
F

Folder

Unconfirmed Member
How long have you worked for Eurogamer Deepthroat?
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
Alex Ward said:
Nobody wants to make just an offline game any more. Everyone wants an online component.

What a silly statement. And *not* because it's with reference to GC, but just generally.
 
gofreak said:
What a silly statement. And *not* because it's with reference to GC, but just generally.

It's not really a bad statement. More and more games are going online. It's almost impossible today to make a racer for example that doesn't have some type of online play, same for sports titles.
 

ourumov

Member
What a silly statement. And *not* because it's with reference to GC, but just generally.

Not only silly but unnecessary...I think onlince communities don't even reach 10% of the total userbases.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
SolidSnakex said:
It's not really a bad statement. More and more games are going online. It's almost impossible today to make a racer for example that doesn't have some type of online play, same for sports titles.

I agree that online is an attractive feature in many games, but to say that no one wants to make offline-only games anymore is really silly. And to say that everyone wants an online component in every game is equally silly. Trust me, I'm a fully subscribed member to the online gaming brigade, and I love it, but certain types of game are better as more personal and solitary experiences imo, and there'll always be room for them.
 

Travado

Member
Eurogamer: Why isn't there a GameCube version?

Alex Ward: Because there's no online. The online networked experience has influenced so much of the offline game, you just would have been half-hearted on GameCube. You're going to have this killer online experience on PlayStation and Xbox. All the modes, everything makes sense, because you can play online and offline. If we were only going to make an offline game, it had to be different. Nobody wants to make just an offline game any more. Everyone wants an online component.

See that Nintendo?
 

jarrod

Banned
SolidSnakex said:
It's not really a bad statement. More and more games are going online. It's almost impossible today to make a racer for example that doesn't have some type of online play, same for sports titles.
I dunno, take a look at Winning Eleven 8 and Enthusia. Guess Konami needs to get with the times. :p
 

ge-man

Member
I don't buy the statement myself, and frankly I think Ward underestimates how great the offline game was in the last Burnout. I'd be more impressed if he would be a bit more honest and just say that Criterion doesn't care for Nintendo hardware.
 
jarrod said:
I dunno, take a look at Winning Eleven 8 and Enthusia. Guess Konami needs to get with the times. :p

I didn't say completely impossible. And Konami hasn't ruled out the possibility of Enthusia being online either.

"I'd be more impressed if he would be a bit more honest and just say that Criterion doesn't care for Nintendo hardware."

Or some people will just have to realise how important online play is to some developers and how a company not supporting it at all influences whether or not they'll put a game on that system. It was only a matter of time really, have a stance like that was bound to affect some developers view on the system as a whole. Nintendo's gotta realise that their stance is no longer just affecting whether or not the game will have online play on the GC, it's not affecting whether or not the game will even be on the system. Is that really worth it?
 

jarrod

Banned
SolidSnakex said:
Or some people will just have to realise how important online play is to some developers and how a company not supporting it at all influences whether or not they'll put a game on that system. It was only a matter of time really, have a stance like that was bound to affect some developers view on the system as a whole. Nintendo's gotta realise that their stance is no longer just affecting whether or not the game will have online play on the GC, it's not affecting whether or not the game will even be on the system. Is that really worth it?
Well the excuse is sorta prematurely flimsy at this point. Online gaming (at most) represents only 4% of the console market... and the generation is 2 years away from ending. Going online now would be a waste of resources for GameCube, it's just too late. It'd be better for Nintendo to make a strong impact with Revolution instead.
 
"nline gaming (at most) represents only 4% of the console market"

That's the excuse Nintendo would give for not supporting it, but its obvious that developers don't care.

"It'd be better for Nintendo to make a strong impact with Revolution instead."

Sure but Iwata's made it obvious that they're geared up to ignore online gaming again next gen. I think developers will be even more inclined to ignore the GC because of that then than now also since both Sony and MS are going to have their own online networks then.
 

Mrbob

Member
Is this really that bad of a statement? SC:pT is getting panned right now on Cube for not supporting any online mode.
 
OG_Original Gamer said:
How many devs are saying away from the Cube because of online? Is it in double digits?

It's the GC, it shouldn't matter if it's 1 or 100. Nintendo should be trying anything that can do to please developers. It's not like the GC's 3rd party support is great by any means, so they shouldn't be losing developers over stuff they could easily fix.
 

jarrod

Banned
SolidSnakex said:
That's the excuse Nintendo would give for not supporting it, but its obvious that developers don't care.
Don't delude yourself, there's plenty of reasons why select developers are avoiding GameCube and "online" likely ranks at the bottom. EA, UbiSoft, Activision, Capcom, Sega and plenty of other online focused firms don't seem to care, only Ward seems to be making a stink about it really.


SolidSnakex said:
Sure but Iwata's made it obvious that they're geared up to ignore online gaming again next gen. I think developers will be even more inclined to ignore the GC because of that then than now also since both Sony and MS are going to have their own online networks then.
Care to qualify that accusation with anything more specific? Exactly what has Iwata said in regards to ignoring online for Revolution?
 
"A, UbiSoft, Activision, Capcom, Sega and plenty of other online focused firms don't seem to care, only Ward seems to be making a stink about it really"

Yah and all those games are ignored quite a bit too and recieve very mediocre reviews in comparison to the online competitors games.

"Care to qualify that accusation with anything more specific? Exactly what has Iwata said in regards to ignoring online for Revolution?"

It might've been Miyamoto. But I remember some story from Nintendo talking about how they arne't interested in online gaming once again till it becomes profitable. Chances are it's not going to be compeltely profitable next gen either, atleast not from the start. So I doubt they'll support it then either.
 

jarrod

Banned
Mrbob said:
Is this really that bad of a statement? SC:pT is getting panned right now on Cube for not supporting any online mode.
And yet UbiSoft still ported the game and considered it a sales success... proving there's a viable market on GameCube for "offline" ports of online focused games. Good example Bob. :)
 

jarrod

Banned
SolidSnakex said:
Yah and all those games are ignored quite a bit too and recieve very mediocre reviews in comparison to the online competitors games.
You're missing the point SSX. "Online" doesn't seem to be a compelling reason for anyone to avoid GameCube except Ward. In fact looking at online console gaming, it's even more niche than CD gaming was on 16bit platforms. Keep on target.


SolidSnakex said:
It might've been Miyamoto. But I remember some story from Nintendo talking about how they arne't interested in online gaming once again till it becomes profitable. Chances are it's not going to be compeltely profitable next gen either, atleast not from the start. So I doubt they'll support it then either.
So again... you have nothing but questionable assumptions. Good to know. :p
 
""Online" doesn't seem to be a compelling reason for anyone to avoid GameCube except Ward."

Lets see how that turns out next gen.

"So again... you have nothing but questionable assumptions. Good to know."

Do you need anything else? How many online games do they have announced right now? None? How much interest have they actually shown in online game, especially on consoles? None. I don't see any real indication that they're going to make the leap next gen either.
 

jarrod

Banned
SolidSnakex said:
"Online" doesn't seem to be a compelling reason for anyone to avoid GameCube except Ward."

Lets see how that turns out next gen.
Let's see how your flimsy assumptions turn out first.


SolidSnakex said:
"So again... you have nothing but questionable assumptions. Good to know."

Do you need anything else?
Besides "questionable assumptions" based on what someone might have said? Do I really have to answer that?


SolidSnakex said:
How many online games do they have announced right now? None?
On GameCube? Two released from Sega (plus an enhanced rerelease) and one coming from ChunSoft.


SolidSnakex said:
How much interest have they actually shown in online game, especially on consoles? None.
64DD, SFC BS-X, GB Mobile... it's not like Nintendo's never dipped their foot in the pool, their network R&D stretches back to the mid 1980s.


SolidSnakex said:
I don't see any real indication that they're going to make the leap next gen either.
And I don't really see any indication that they're not "going to make the leap next gen either". Unless you have any evidence to the contrary?
 

Dave Long

Banned
Here's a tip for all you guys that didn't live through the online gaming boom on the PC. When id put out Quake, and people discovered that you could play the game over the Internet, it became even huger than it already was when it was just the next game from id Software. Lots of folks started playing it online and it became "cool" to be a part of that crowd.

After about a year or so, everyone and their brother was making their games "online" playable. PC games often became single/multiplayer hybrids where online wasn't good enough and the single player often also suffered because too much time was spent trying to make the online part work and work reasonably well.

From then on, many PC gamers whined and moaned if a game did not support online play even if the online play was awful or useless. Sound familiar?

The thing is, most of the people that wanted online play were the hardcore and the hardcore alone. Everyone else, the general consumer, didn't give a shit and still doesn't. Top selling games on the PC are things like The Sims and RollerCoaster Tycoon and games like them. Those are the ones that appeal to the masses and when they tried to take them online (The Sims Online), they failed miserably.

So who drove the PC games to all have to include some online component? Companies like Criterion and other PC games makers who totally believed they had to have this mythical online in order to have a successful game. They also listened to this tiny vocal minority that would bitch and moan all day long on the Internet (USENET at the time) about games missing online components, only to find out that sales figures didn't match the perceived market need.

Take a step back and look at the console market today and you can draw all the parallels. It's the same thing all over again. And you know what? I bet if you surveyed all the Xbox Live users, you'll find that the vast majority of them are old PC gamers or still do game regularly on the PC. Online has not penetrated the casual gaming market and probably won't for years if ever. I'm sure Nintendo will be there with something when there is finally some kind of money to be made simply because right now the investment is just way too high to justify the real world R&D for a minimal amount of customers.
 
"On GameCube? Two released from Sega (plus an enhanced rerelease) and one coming from ChunSoft.'

When did Sega and Chunsoft become Nintendo? I'm not talking about 3rd parties, i'm talking about Nintendo themself. What online games do they have announced right now? Not for old dead systems (since they obviously mean nothing or else they'd be online right now), for systems right now.

The only comments we've got from Nintendo on online gaming recently is how they might go online when it becomes a profitable feature and how they point out how small online gaming fanbases are in comparison to the system fanbases. So basically taking shots at the feature more than anything.
 

jarrod

Banned
SolidSnakex said:
When did Sega and Chunsoft become Nintendo? I'm not talking about 3rd parties, i'm talking about Nintendo themself. What online games do they have announced right now? Not for old dead systems (since they obviously mean nothing or else they'd be online right now), for systems right now.
Well nothing... what makes you so sure they won't have those announcements two years from now though? How many Xenon games have Microsoft announced right now?


SolidSnakex said:
The only comments we've got from Nintendo on online gaming recently is how they might go online when it becomes a profitable feature and how they point out how small online gaming fanbases are in comparison to the system fanbases. So basically taking shots at the feature more than anything.
Well, it's not entirely untrue, how many billions has Microsoft sunk into Live? How much of a return are they making? Does only 4% of the market really demand the gigantic invetmesnt taking place right now? PlayOnline and EA Online are just now truning around and (barely) profiting after huge upfront investment (not sure about EA, it was a moneypit the past 3 years)... Nintendo isn't the size of Sony or MS, do you think it's safe for them to make the same sort of investments in online for a 15 million userbase 2 years before the next console cycle?

Besides, it's not like Nintendo's never bothered in the area. In fact just this generation they got burned on Mobile GB pretty bad, despite having killer apps like Mario Kart and Pokemon...
 

jedimike

Member
DSN2K said:
you and about 90% of burnout 3 owners wont be. ;)

It doesn't work that way... even though only roughly 10% of the userbase plays online, most online games have about a 50% online ratio. Meaning that of all the sales of CSX, PGR2, RSC2, SOCOM, SOCOMII, etc., 50% of the people that bought the game play online with it.
 
SolidSnakex said:
"On GameCube? Two released from Sega (plus an enhanced rerelease) and one coming from ChunSoft.'

When did Sega and Chunsoft become Nintendo? I'm not talking about 3rd parties, i'm talking about Nintendo themself. What online games do they have announced right now? Not for old dead systems (since they obviously mean nothing or else they'd be online right now), for systems right now.

The only comments we've got from Nintendo on online gaming recently is how they might go online when it becomes a profitable feature and how they point out how small online gaming fanbases are in comparison to the system fanbases. So basically taking shots at the feature more than anything.

It still doesn't justify the lame ass reason for not releasing the game on GC. It doesn't make any sense at all, so what is the motivation for other gamers on the PS2 and Xbox that are not online. I guess the game is going to be markerted to the online sector only. I'm expecting the game to release with a sticker saying broadband connection required to play this game. But wait a minute, the game has a offline mode.

I would understand if the game featured online mode only but it doesn't.

Memory expansion pack required to play the single player of Perfect Dark.
 
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