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[ErasureAcer]

I'm happy OBL(or whoever it was) put a blow on Bush's "They hate us because of our freedoms" BS. He gave in clear language the reasons, that I and many others assumed, were the arab world hates America...the US's support of Israel Military operations.

I agree with Bin Laden that those operations are wrong and that the US should personally stay out of world affairs but rather only speak through the UN...as one member in a sea of voices(last point my words).

The US has used its power to manipulate world events and that is just wrong. On the other hand...now that the US is doing it...Al Qaeda is doing it too...and well that's just as equally wrong.

In the end...neither side is going to cave and this war will go on forever. Leaders may be killed/replaced, but new ones will come up.

How bout both sides just agree to stay out of each other's worlds? Call a truce. Amazingly...it seems that Bin Laden was the one going down this road(if he was being honest)...at least moreso than Bush or Kerry. Bin Laden is absolutely right though that the US needs to stop interfering with the world as a world dictator. If the USA wants to control the world...they can do so by being one voice in the UN.

But yeah...that's never going to happen. Maybe if Kucinich were president...but America has a lot to learn before they'll elect him.

 

[ErasureAcer]

They caught us unaware.

And that's exactly the reason why Bush should not be president. There were plenty of warnings. And it isn't like this was Al Qaeda's first strike against the US. The USS Cole, The Kovar Towers, a handful of Embassy's were all blown up too...they were the top threat facing this nation and we were "unaware".

Bin Laden makes a good point though. We, as Americans, need to change our attitude. If somehow we were to destroy Al Qaeda...how much longer until we single handedly interfere in some other nation/region and piss their people off. The US needs to stop going alone and join the world community. Of course this is all Reagan/Bush Sr's fault...they fucked around in the mideast so much...they pissed off a lot of people in the 80's.

Expect in 15 years more attacks against the USA from current pissed off Iraqis.

This will never end if we continue this almighty attitude in butting into other people's affairs.

 

[Matlock]

Jesus. You know, it's bad when Public Enemy #1 says "You know what guys, your president is a real fucking douchebag."

 

[Ripclawe]

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0410/29/lkl.01.html

KING: OK, Walter. What do you make of this?

CRONKITE: Well, I make it out to be initially the reaction that it's a threat to us, that unless we make peace with him, in a sense, we can expect further attacks. He did not say that precisely, but it sounds like that when he says...

KING: The warning.

CRONKITE: What we just heard. So now the question is basically right now, how will this affect the election? And I have a feeling that it could tilt the election a bit. In fact, I'm a little inclined to think that Karl Rove, the political manager at the White House, who is a very clever man, he probably set up bin Laden to this thing. The advantage to the Republican side is to get rid of, as a principal subject of the campaigns right now, get rid of the whole problem of the al Qaqaa explosive dump. Right now, that, the last couple of days, has, I think, upset the Republican campaign.

 

[CrimsonSkies]

"And that's exactly the reason why Bush should not be president. "

Monday morning QB's are a dime a dozen this year.

 

[Phoenix]

"And that's exactly the reason why Bush should not be president. "

Monday morning QB's are a dime a dozen this year.

And worth even less...

 

[ErasureAcer]

anyone who doesn't think 9/11 could have been prevented is an idiot.

Bush could have prevented it...if he even attempted to try and stop it. He did not.

 

[Socreges]

Just read the Bin Laden translation. Very interesting. It seems like he's genuinely trying to communicate, rather than simply perpetuating fear and praising Allah.

 

[FightyF]

anyone who doesn't think 9/11 could have been prevented is an idiot.

Or maybe genuinely ignorant.

It's not our job to belittle people, because it may be the case that they really don't know any better.

And when I say "our", it's relative to this case, because we know that Bush recieved a memo warning of attacks. I'm not implying that you and I know everything about...well, everything. Just in this situation, that's all.

 

[deadhorse32]

An excerpt from Bin Laden's speech. I wonder what he means by that...why wouldn't he attack Sweden? Well, at least it makes me happy to live in Sweden.

Probably because he likes Sweden.

Look

The smiling teenager in the picture (circled above) looks like he doesn't have a care in the world as he poses with 22 of his brothers and sisters. But the 14-year-old Osama bin Laden soon went from grinning schoolboy to becoming the world's most cold-hearted mass murderer. The bin Laden children lined up next to a pink Cadillac on a trip to Falun, Sweden in 1971.

 

[Miburou]

Is there a version without any English voice overs?

And it's Aljazeera, which means island or peninsula in Arabic, here referring to the Arabian Peninsula. I think it's a great name, personally.

 

[EmSeta]

Where can I see the video? Can't find it anywhere.

 

[Spainkiller]

These guys live in caves. We're being threatened by cavemen! Am I the only one that finds this slightly absurd and funny? This guy is sitting in some cave on the other side of world making empty threats. OOooo im so scared.

You sir, are an idiot, and a classic example of the bullshit arrogance that dictates the actions of the most powerful nation in the world. 'We bombed the shit out of them.'

WOOO GOO YOUUUUU!!!! YEAH!! KICKING ASS IN THE NAME OF GOD!!

Fuck. off.

Idealism is far more powerful than you think. They're sitting in caves, perfectly safe while the $1.17 trillion US army blunders about blowing up children while looking for him. Why do you think this is?

And for the record, nobody 'bombed the shit out of them.' There's no 'them'... it's an ideal, not a race.

 

[gofreak]

Wow, that's actually a pretty clear and straight forward message from Bin Laden. Perhaps it will highlight the actual complexity of the situation for the American people, who mostly seem content to believe Bush's simplistic characterisations of the world stage. "good" and "evil" etc. I'm not saying Bin Laden isn't "evil"...anyone who murders 3000 people, and more..well, their moral position is questionable. But conversely, is US foreign policy simply "good"? Forget about your own country's interests. Bin Laden would say he is acting in the interests of "his" people. If you simply compare actions, the Bush administration (and US foreign policy over the years) doesn't look so "good" either.

Nothing justifies terrorism and the killing of innocents. In that sense, Bin Laden and al qaeda can be characterised as evil. But, is the US justified in its killing of innocents? America claims to be fighting for its security. So does Al Qaeda.

 

[Spainkiller]

As with everything, no side thinks they're 'evil'. In there heads it's all justified.

Unfortunatly it's the common man like us who suffer as they play their games, as the 3000 people and countless family members doing their normal lives found out 3 years ago. Both Bush and OBL should never be forgiven for that, IMO.

 

[Kiriku]

Probably because he likes Sweden.

Look

"The smiling teenager in the picture (circled above) looks like he doesn't have a care in the world as he poses with 22 of his brothers and sisters. But the 14-year-old Osama bin Laden soon went from grinning schoolboy to becoming the world's most cold-hearted mass murderer. The bin Laden children lined up next to a pink Cadillac on a trip to Falun, Sweden in 1971."

Holy shit...Falun, that's like 20 km from where I live. :O

 

[gofreak]

Agreed. The ordinary American, the ordinary Iraqi, the ordinary Palestinian etc. is innocent in all this. It's our governments, and these groups, that are the guilty.

 

[Bizarro Sun Yat-sen]

The smiling teenager in the picture (circled above) looks like he doesn't have a care in the world as he poses with 22 of his brothers and sisters. But the 14-year-old Osama bin Laden soon went from grinning schoolboy to becoming the world's most cold-hearted mass murderer. The bin Laden children lined up next to a pink Cadillac on a trip to Falun, Sweden in 1971.

Somebody really needs to make a sitcom about them!

 

[Jill Sandwich]

 

[Trevelyon]

"Bin Laden slams Gilmore Girls"

:lol :lol

 

[DonasaurusRex]

Damn man Osama Bin Laden got more videos than Puff Daddy. He needs some video hoes in full islamic garb next time.

 

[SantaC]

You wouldn't win anything by attacking sweden. We're such a small country. I think bin laden meant that he doesn't attack america because they have freedom, and took sweden as an example since we are neutral, and very americanized at the same time.

As I swede, it doesn't feel good that he mention us.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

"And that's exactly the reason why Bush should not be president. "

Monday morning QB's are a dime a dozen this year.

And does a QB who doesn't think he makes mistakes ever improve?

 

[Ripclawe]

Just read the Bin Laden translation. Very interesting. It seems like he's genuinely trying to communicate, rather than simply perpetuating fear and praising Allah.

Taken at face value, its a surrender video, you leave us and we leave you.

 

[Dilbert]

Taken at face value, its a surrender video, you leave us and we leave you.

I hardly think that it's a "surrender" video.

 

[Incognito]

Taken at face value, its a surrender video, you leave us and we leave you.

:lol

 

[Funky Papa]

-Bin Laden tells Europe to don't mess with them if they want peace = Truce

-Bin Laden tells the USA to don't mess with them if they want peace = Surrender video

Help me Ripclawe, I am dazed and confused by your superior logic.

 

[Ripclawe]

-Bin Laden tells Europe to don't mess with them if they want peace = Truce

-Bin Laden tells the USA to don't mess with them if they want peace = Surrender video

Help me Ripclawe, I am dazed and confused by your superior logic.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3627775.stm

'Bin Laden' offers Europe truce
Thursday, 15 April, 2004, 19:23 GMT 20:23 UK

Two Arab TV channels have broadcast an audiotape said to be from Osama Bin Laden in which he offers Europe a truce if it "stops attacking Muslims".
But the speaker in the tape, aired by al-Arabiya and al-Jazeera satellite channels, said the offer would not be extended to the US.
He vowed to avenge Israel's killing of Hamas founder Sheikh Ahmed Yassin.

US Secretary of State Colin Powell said that, according to the information he had, the voice was Bin Laden's.


CIA analysis had earlier suggested the voice was likely to be that of the al-Qaeda leader.

Now he comes around to America saying "okay, we will leave you alone if you leave us" unlike the EU who has leaders who said that we should talk to terrorists and "understand them", American leaders so far have not done such a thing. But the man who said his goal was to make Islam the religion of the world, called American troops paper tigers based on actions in solmolia, saying Americans would run at the first sign of blood, no says hold up, understand our actions and leave us alone?

THis is not the bin laden of the past, now he is getting points from the debates and Michael Moore? This is all based on taking the tape at face value.

But I still go along with the intelligence services thinking that it might be a go tape of some kind.

 

[Particle Physicist]

honestly. this video is very strange. it doesnt gel with what he has said in the past..

 

[Socreges]

Taken at face value, its a surrender video, you leave us and we leave you.

Well, if Ripclawe says so.

 

[FightyF]

honestly. this video is very strange. it doesnt gel with what he has said in the past..

Message to Muslims would bring about 30 tons of religious rhetoric.

Message to Americans, far more political than anything.

The timing is obviously tied to the election.

I read the whole thing, and he describes how when Israel attacked Lebenon's buildings with people in them, people had no problems with it. He then describes that as the reason for attack the twin towers. Despite his explanation, it's still petty revenge, which is an injustice in itself. He's not the only one who thinks this way, obviously. You can try to "kill them all", but I think a far more effective/permanent solution would be to show that they are wrong from a religious perspective, and support people who are doing that.

I'm still appalled by all the attention we are willing to give to these kinds of people, while ignoring people who have the power and authority to make people like OBL look stupid (to the entire world, to all audiences, including ones who actually agree with him).

Bleh, a rant on a forum won't do much...

 

[Spainkiller]

No it won't but it's nice to see some really reasonable, intelligent posts on this subject. Restores my faith in the human race to some degree

 

[Late Stage Marxist]

How would you like to be the dude that gets to see the beheading videos as soon as they come in? Bleh.

OMG YOUR AVATAR ROCKS! :lol

 

[Guileless]

Interesting that he formally claimed responsibility for 9/11 after being coy for 3 years about it. What will this do to the people who still think some combination of the Jews/Bush/CIA really did it? That viewpoint is still regularly expressed in the Arab media.

So what are we supposed to think? That crashing planes into buildings and the murder of 3,000 people was a logical response to something Israel did in 1982? How can anyone even consider taking that seriously? More callous exploitation of the suffering of Palestineans.

 

[gofreak]

So what are we supposed to think? That crashing planes into buildings and the murder of 3,000 people was a logical response to something Israel did in 1982? How can anyone even consider taking that seriously? More callous exploitation of the suffering of Palestineans.

Was the invasion of Iraq and the killing of thousands of people a logical response to what happened on 9/11?

 

[FightyF]

^^^ Good point.

I mean, if we are going to talk about "calleous exploitations", 9/11 deaths are still being exploited to garner VOTES.

As mentioned earlier...it's a battle that involves people who wield power...and the ones that get hurt are the ordinary civilians. When they get hurt, their pain is exploited. A vicious cycle, isn't it?

 

[Ripclawe]

That crashing planes into buildings and the murder of 3,000 people was a logical response to something Israel did in 1982?

of course not, Israel 1982 is a throwaway line, just like bin laden all of a sudden cared about the Palestinian cause, which he doesn't, but it all sounds really good.

 

[CajoleJuice]

Has anyone thought that Bin Laden is sending this tape out now to try to get Kerry elected because he doesn't want Bush going after his ass anymore? Bin Laden is just trying to get us off his back. It's sort of a surrender video and at the same time he's hoping Kerry will get elected so he'll get his wish of not getting hunted after anymore. But seriously, why isn't this bastard dead yet? Bush is like freaking Elmer Fudd. Fuck, seeing Lewis Black last night just made me more pissed about how both Kerry and Bush suck.

 

[gofreak]

Has anyone thought that Bin Laden is sending this tape out now to try to get Kerry elected because he doesn't want Bush going after his ass anymore?

:lol :lol

t's sort of a surrender video and at the same time he's hoping Kerry will get elected so he'll get his wish of not getting hunted after anymore

Where's that dog in the mincer "what" pic when you need it..

edit - no, really, are you being serious? I'd rate our chances of capturing bin laden as higher under kerry than bush. Bush distracted the war on terror with Iraq - he let up on Bin Laden. Kerry is more likely to refocus things on Al Qaeda. God almighty, it's the one thing Kerry has been harping on about for the last 6 months.

 

[Guileless]

The motivation for the invasion of Iraq was not to kill as many people as possible as revenge for something that happened in 1982 which involved none of them. I don't see the comparison.

 

[xsarien]

Has anyone thought that Bin Laden is sending this tape out now to try to get Kerry elected because he doesn't want Bush going after his ass anymore? Bin Laden is just trying to get us off his back.

Um, how about "No." Because, if you haven't noticed, Bush is most definitely *not* on bin Laden's back.

 

[RiZ III]

You sir, are an idiot, and a classic example of the bullshit arrogance that dictates the actions of the most powerful nation in the world. 'We bombed the shit out of them.'

WOOO GOO YOUUUUU!!!! YEAH!! KICKING ASS IN THE NAME OF GOD!!

Fuck. off.

Idealism is far more powerful than you think. They're sitting in caves, perfectly safe while the $1.17 trillion US army blunders about blowing up children while looking for him. Why do you think this is?

And for the record, nobody 'bombed the shit out of them.' There's no 'them'... it's an ideal, not a race.

Hahaha seems like i pissed someone off. Sorry, next time I'll make sure my opinions agree with yours.

 

[Ripclawe]

Um, how about "No." Because, if you haven't noticed, Bush is most definitely *not* on bin Laden's back.

Really? So we are doing nothing to arrest and kill members of qaeda, or curtail the financial lines to qaeda? he is just running free?

 

[xsarien]

Really? So we are doing nothing to arrest and kill members of qaeda, or curtail the financial lines to qaeda? he is just running free?

Considering he's making more videos than Madonna these days, I'd wager that he's not terribly concerned. You see a surrender statement; I see a taunt. Maybe if we actually stayed focused on minimalizing the reach of these networks - and simply arresting those who operate within them instead of going into Iraq - the war on terror would see legitimate progress.

 

[Ripclawe]

You see a surrender statement; I see a taunt. Maybe if we actually stayed focused on minimalizing the reach of these networks - and simply arresting those who operate within them instead of going into Iraq - the war on terror would see legitimate progress.

As I said before, they have been arrests, numerous arrests of high ranking Qaeda figures, cutting down on financial ties and severly cutting back on the ability of qaeda to do operations. Your view that American forces and intelligence at this point can't do multiple things is wrong. Do you think if they take all the forces out of IRaq and plant them in Pakistan, everything will be okay in a month?

 

[xsarien]

As I said before, they have been arrests, numerous arrests of high ranking Qaeda figures, cutting down on financial ties and severly cutting back on the ability of qaeda to do operations. Your view that American forces and intelligence at this point can't do multiple things is wrong. Do you think if they take all the forces out of IRaq and plant them in Pakistan, everything will be okay in a month?

My view is that Iraq has as much to do with the war on terror as, to blatantly paraphrase, Mexico did Pearl Harbor. I'm talking about relevance, not military multitasking.

More to the point, approaching a "virtual" threat like a decentralized network of terrorists with the military is asinine, dangerous, futile, and only makes the problem, in the end, worse.

 

[FightyF]

of course not, Israel 1982 is a throwaway line, just like bin laden all of a sudden cared about the Palestinian cause, which he doesn't, but it all sounds really good.

He's been mentioning that cause since 1998, where have you been?

This makes me think, why didn't he attack Israel? The World would have been like, "Meh, you give some, you take some" if he did.

 

[Makura]

Some great stuff over at LGF today, pretty frustrating:

10/31/2004: The Missing Bin Laden Tape

According to the New York Post, the missing 12 minutes of the new Osama bin Laden videotape contain quite a bit of material that could be very helpful to the Bush-Cheney campaign:

Officials said that in the 18-minute long tape — of which only six minutes were aired on the al-Jazeera Arab television network in the Middle East on Friday — bin Laden bemoans the recent democratic elections in Afghanistan and the lack of violence involved with it.

On the tape, bin Laden also says his terror organization has been hurt by the U.S. military’s unrelenting manhunt for him and his cohorts on the Afghan-Pakistani border.

A portion of the left-out footage includes a tirade aimed at President Bush and his father, former President George H.W. Bush, claiming the war in Iraq is purely over oil.

This is outrageous. After three years unseen, Osama bin Laden releases a video acknowledging the Bush administration’s record of success in Afghanistan, and in hunting down the Al Qaeda network, and showing his particular hatred for the man who brought this ruin upon him—but the media doesn’t think we should see it? Instead we get a whitewashed, edited version that seems to be equally critical of Bush and Kerry, and wire stories extolling Bin Laden’s confidence and health?

Release the full tape!

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=13368_The_Missing_Bin_Laden_Tape
http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/33063.htm

 

[Dan]

Why the hell would bin Laden admit that his forces have been hurt by US efforts in Afghanistan and Pakistan? That makes no sense.

 

[Makura]

People at GAF agreeing with Bin Laden? Color me NOT SHOCKED IN THE LEAST.

You people make me nauseous.