Support NeoGAF

[leo-j]

I have to wonder.

TLOU 1 Spoilers:

You start the game with Tesse and Joel. You develop a great love for these characters especially the fact Tesse is this strong women who may or may not be having sex with Joel and she bosses Joel around slightly throughout the game. They are trying to get their agenda across which is to get money And guns back from a guy who may have double crossed them again. They go on this adventure where she saves him time and time again. You really start to fall for this character. They find the guy who double crosses them and we reach a climax moment where she shoots his head off.
SUDDENLY A RANDOM FIREFLY APPEARS. They don’t like fireflies as the game has clearly illustrated.

RANDOM FIREFLY SAYS I NEED U TO TAKE A PACKAGE. They agree because that firefly who can barely move apparently had the money to buy their guns somehow. You would think a guy that double crosses Tesse would have killed her but no SJW AGENDA INCOMING.

The package ends up being a NAGGING LITTLE GIRL. Who guess what? Is of course a Lesbian. They kill Tesse off and you spend the rest of the game with an nagging lesbian. Trying to get her to more fireflies. Who again were the enemy originally.

They destroyed the game

 

[Explosive Zombie]

Which one? Is it Marlene?

Yes.

I haven't seen TWD since season 8 so I don't know
But regarding TLOU, people say Joel is a bad man but I don't think that at all.
He was father and I think he did what any other father would do.

Spoiler

I don't think anybody here wasn't expecting Joel to die eventually, they just don't like how it's been handled from the information known

But it probably plays out better
But it's hard to see how it would

I'm not calling Joel a bad man, I think he's a complex character who is more than just good or bad.

Ah, right, the Marlene trump card.
He had no choice. He risked his life to save Ellie, Marlene was basically about to get her killed to not risk hers. Since there was no way to make sure they would stop coming, he had to whack her.
Or you think kneecapping her would've been enough?

Whacking her doesn't stop them, as the new game proves and anyone with a brain could figure out. Remember there was a near army of armed men chasing Joel at the end, they all stop because Marlene dies?

It's not heroic to kill a wounded woman begging for her life. If Joel is just a hero to you you need to re-evaluate things.

 

[MagnesG]

What if Abby's story was released as a standalone later with more polish. How would people think the reception would be?

It's not heroic to kill a wounded woman begging for her life. If Joel is just a hero to you you need to re-evaluate things.

Is it different if it is a man? A bad person with own selfish interest?

 

[Saber]

Still classy eh? Painting Joel as a villain and damage controls every LoU thread.

What if Abby's story was released as a standalone later with more polish. How would people think the reception would be?

It wouldn't change.
She still a daughter of a random npc. Random npcs that games make you kill just to progress(not exclusive to LoU)
If thats a character, then exists pretty much more than 200 Abbys out there wanting revenge for their dead dad npcs. More if you includes random npcs from Uncharted games, if you decides to do the same thing.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

What if Abby's story was released as a standalone later with more polish. How would people think the reception would be?


Is it different if it is a man? A bad person with own selfish interest?

Wait, in what way was her interest more selfish than Joel's? You can't even say what Joel did is strictly for Ellie, the ending makes it clear Ellie wouldn't have agreed to Joel's actions, his actions are 100% selfish regardless of how you feel about them.

 

[plushyp]

Or, the leaked videos are simply from an earlier build where certain graphical details & designs hadn't yet been finalized. I've seen way more companies change design aspects between early footage, trailers & the final game than I ever have seen any use purposeful "misdirection". If it was a Kojima game, I might agree. But Naughty Dog? No, I doubt it.

There's nothing mysterious/smart about this as the model change in the trailer was to make the viewers think the full game might be another adventure of the duo. Just another marketing trick. The reason I say the leaked version is the final one is simply because of the context of the scene. From the leaks we can see Ellie is confronting Joel about what happened when he rushed her out of the hospital. Logically it makes more narrative sense for her to bring it up during a time period that's closer to the first game rather than the second one.

Yes, I think that's most likely the case. But her tattoo makes me think some things may have changed.

Could be but I'd wager it's just Ellie having iterations done on her tattoo as she got older. Like the younger Ellie model had an unfinished version and by the time she got older it was completed.

 

[DForce]

This is turning into a whole game of deflection and denial.
The main problem from the leak, the thing that cannot be undone, is that Joel is killed like a piece of shit in an act of revenge by a character they are pulling out their asses and putting into a sympathetic playable role for cheap ass moral ambiguity.

"See? Joel didn't say a thing or did some thing to somebody, what an asshole. I love Abby now, she cute with the purple bow <3".

Unless what we are missing is that Ellie kills Abby's bf first and then kills Abby herself like Sal Paconi in Death Wish 5, there is no excusing them. Abby lives at the end, they f***ed up.
For Joel to end the way he did and be replaced by Abby, he would have to be retconned into a child killer, a child molester or something as extremely vile and heinous.
He just happened to whack a bunch of demented people about to do something stupid.

That's not replacing. In order to replace someone, you need to take their position.

There's a good argument that can be made that both Ellie and Abby's actions are justified.

 

[The Mad Draklor]

It wouldn't change.
She still a daughter of a random npc. Random npcs that games make you kill just to progress(not exclusive to LoU)
If thats a character, then exists pretty much more than 200 Abbys out there wanting revenge for their dead dad npcs. More if you includes random npcs from Uncharted games, if you decides to do the same thing.

It's not just that, but her dad was portrayed in the first game as an unethical surgeon who will do whatever means to find the cure. There was also another recording of one of his assistants who vehemently opposed to killing Ellie for the sake of the cure. So for the game to use Abby's dad's death as a way for the player to sympathize with her character is laughable.

 

[MagnesG]

Wait, in what way was her interest more selfish than Joel's? You can't even say what Joel did is strictly for Ellie, the ending makes it clear Ellie wouldn't have agreed to Joel's actions, his actions are 100% selfish regardless of how you feel about them.

Nah I'm just wondering if a women with her own agenda begging for a life would make a difference if it is replaced with a man. Not saying Joel's decision was not selfish.

It wouldn't change.
She still a daughter of a random npc. Random npcs that games make you kill just to progress(not exclusive to LoU)
If thats a character, then exists pretty much more than 200 Abbys out there wanting revenge for their dead dad npcs. More if you includes random npcs from Uncharted games, if you decides to do the same thing.

I pretty much agree, no amount of context could help even things on the scale. Her backstory is just shoe horned to soften the blow imo.

 

[Clear]

This is turning into a whole game of deflection and denial.
The main problem from the leak, the thing that cannot be undone, is that Joel is killed like a piece of shit in an act of revenge by a character they are pulling out their asses and putting into a sympathetic playable role for cheap ass moral ambiguity.

Why is it cheap? If you were paying attention Joel is a pretty morally ambiguous character himself for much of the first game. There's nothing heroic about the Joel we meet at the start of the game, prologue notwithstanding he's a cynical survivor-type who's more feared than liked by people who know him. That he becomes sympathetic over the course of the story is because the events of the journey are contrived to create that impression.

How is doing the same thing with Abby so implausible? Yes, she gets introduced to us as the one responsible for Joel's death, but theres a shitload of stuff that's going to go down before we get to play her, like us playing Ellie as she (righteously? Justifiably?) Murders her way through Abby's friends and WLF comrades on her way to a showdown.

So, when we get to this confrontation, and it subsequently flips back to a younger Abby discovering her father murdered at Joel's hands and rolls into the moment she gets her retribution (sparing Ellie and Tommy despite her compadre's warnings because this is justice to her, not mindless savagery) , I think an interesting "B route" scenario has just opened.

Its just the sort of switch-pull that Yoko Taro uses in the Nier games (titles which incidentally also include gay and intersex characters, but noone complains about) and its an interesting and effective approach.

For Joel to end the way he did and be replaced by Abby, he would have to be retconned into a child killer, a child molester or something as extremely vile and heinous.

No. The whole point here is what Yoko was dealing with post 9/11 in Nier: Specifically what does it take to turn a good person into a cold-blooded killer? The answer being, a "righteous cause" to hide behind and allow the enemy to considered as less than human.

 

[Karppuuna]

This hole thing makes me sad and it shows how shit gaming community is.

 

[Sakura Doritos]

Revenge stories that convey violence begets violence are there to convey the pointlessness of the interaction. The plot is pointless except to convey how pointless it was.

Video games especially ND games let you play along story.

So we have what looks to be a pointless plot that we get to play through. And we get to be put into a paradox as fans of the original characters.

This is contemptuous of the developers if this all works out to be true.

 

[Sub_Level]

Macho Mam Abby Savage

 

[yeeeeeezy]

"Damn this trailer would be intense if I didn't know how it ended".

You still don't know how the game ends you dumbass. At most you've seen a couple of clips and cherry picked the one out of several "leaked" synopses -each of which has a different ending- that best fits your expectations and used one to "prove" the other.

Its all intellectually bankrupt.

Many on the right or anti sjw side wish this game to fail because Neil is a progressive. They are intolerant and full of hate.

It’s funny - they accuse Neil of having a political agenda yet these very same people are attempting to destroy the game due to their own political agendas.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

Hey. Is there any way I can send a message to the moderation staff.? It has nothing to do with TLOU2, but something else. I'm sure they know what this is in regards to, and I want to have a chance to plead my side of the case because I have some disagreement with their reasoning on the matter I'm referring to.

Can a moderator let me know if there's a way to contact the team and discuss this in greater detail in private? Thanks in advance.

 

[Paracelsus]

Whacking her doesn't stop them, as the new game proves and anyone with a brain could figure out. Remember there was a near army of armed men chasing Joel at the end, they all stop because Marlene dies?

It's not heroic to kill a wounded woman begging for her life. If Joel is just a hero to you you need to re-evaluate things.

"Hero" doesn't mean what you think it means. A hero doesn't have to be necessarily virtuous.

Humanity by TLOU1 time was already doomed and this is a fact, there simply wasn't a proper infrastructure for a vaccine, there absolutely was no guarantee there would be a vaccine at all, the doctors were mostly talking out their asses, and he went through hell to deliver her and he's kicked to the curb to die in the wild, bad idea given his temper.
Is your beef that he saved her because he didn't want to lose Sarah 2 or because he capped Marlene?
Marlene was about to break her promise to Anna anyway. Fireflies were in shambles, they could no longer fend off the various attacks and thought opening Ellie up was their "Hail Mary".
They would've cut her open anyway, without Marlene's consent, but Marlene had a choice, and her choice was a bunch of empty bitching, she did allow eventually to have Ellie open without her consent.

Marlene was afraid for Ellie to say "no", Joel was afraid she'd say "yes". Marlene did want to risk it all for the vaccine even though "Yeah, you keep telling yourself that bullshit". Ellie would've said yes even if it meant dying for no reason, Joel took away her option for selfish reasons, players like Ellie and didn't want to take the risk.

tl;dr who gives a * about Abby?

 

[Sakura Doritos]

Many on the right or anti sjw side wish this game to fail because Neil is a progressive. They are intolerant and full of hate.

It’s funny - they accuse Neil of having a political agenda yet these very same people are attempting to destroy the game due to their own political agendas.

Maybe that is you projecting? Maybe people want this game to fail because he is using a platform the fans financially created for them to soapbox from? Or another dozen or so reasons that don’t have to do with him being progressive.

The fact you think people are right wing if they hate Niel, or just have strong disdain for his actions with this game, is telling about you not them.

 

[yeeeeeezy]

Maybe that is you projecting? Maybe people want this game to fail because he is using a platform the fans financially created for them to soapbox from? Or another dozen or so reasons that don’t have to do with him being progressive.

The fact you think people are right wing if they hate Niel, or just have strong disdain for his actions with this game, is telling about you not them.

I am subscribed to geeks n gamers and the quartering, amazing Lucas, etc. I am on the right. Do not tell me these people are not on the right. There are political agendas at play here. To pretend otherwise is to lie.

 

[Clear]

Many on the right or anti sjw side wish this game to fail because Neil is a progressive. They are intolerant and full of hate.

It’s funny - they accuse Neil of having a political agenda yet these very same people are attempting to destroy the game due to their own political agendas.

Been saying this from the start.

Worst part though is that it basically confirms my fears about where all the worst, most obnoxious woke activism would lead. A resurgent extreme right now emboldened by precedent to use all the shitty suppressive tactics that once were synonymous with fascism., but have since been adopted by the extreme leftists.

 

[GTPeter]

I believe is time for @yosp and @Neil_Druckmann quit gaming and go hand in hand to a cabin if this is true what they did to this game.

 

[ExpandKong]

Many on the right or anti sjw side wish this game to fail because Neil is a progressive. They are intolerant and full of hate.

It’s funny - they accuse Neil of having a political agenda yet these very same people are attempting to destroy the game due to their own political agendas.

lol relax, nobody is destroying Neil’s game but Neil.

 

[Paracelsus]

Why is it cheap? If you were paying attention Joel is a pretty morally ambiguous character himself for much of the first game. There's nothing heroic about the Joel we meet at the start of the game, prologue notwithstanding he's a cynical survivor-type who's more feared than liked by people who know him. That he becomes sympathetic over the course of the story is because the events of the journey are contrived to create that impression.

How is doing the same thing with Abby so implausible? Yes, she gets introduced to us as the one responsible for Joel's death, but theres a shitload of stuff that's going to go down before we get to play her, like us playing Ellie as she (righteously? Justifiably?) Murders her way through Abby's friends and WLF comrades on her way to a showdown.

So, when we get to this confrontation, and it subsequently flips back to a younger Abby discovering her father murdered at Joel's hands and rolls into the moment she gets her retribution (sparing Ellie and Tommy despite her compadre's warnings because this is justice to her, not mindless savagery) , I think an interesting "B route" scenario has just opened.

Its just the sort of switch-pull that Yoko Taro uses in the Nier games (titles which incidentally also include gay and intersex characters, but noone complains about) and its an interesting and effective approach.

No. The whole point here is what Yoko was dealing with post 9/11 in Nier: Specifically what does it take to turn a good person into a cold-blooded killer? The answer being, a "righteous cause" to hide behind and allow the enemy to considered as less than human.

Nobody said it's implausible, but the fact she doesn't whack Ellie once, but twice, obviously hints to it being an act of revenge against Joel for killing her father. We have the crying cutscene next to the corpse, and guess what? It doesn't matter.
It is hella cheap, anybody who is going to sympathize with her and accept her as a heroine was going to accept literally anything.
I bet if you knew the ending spoiler actually had Abby killing Ellie too, the reaction wouldn't be as mild.

Nothing in the story can retroactively change the fact the only reasonable outcome now is for Ellie to kill Abby's boyfriend and then kill Abby. Leave Lev alive.
Your hope is that people rationalize Abby as daddy's little girl and love her, good luck with that. Same as rejecting Joel because of a retcon.

Here, use Misha to kill Drake in Uncharted 5, so Cassie can take revenge.

 

[yeeeeeezy]

lol relax, nobody is destroying Neil’s game but Neil.

 

[Jon Neu]

Leaked footage doesn't tell us definitively how the game ends, in fact the leaked footage suggests we don't see the ending. If you're going by different summaries people have supplied then you're going off pure conjecture with no real proof behind it.

Well, we don’t see an image with “The End”, but the leaks tell us that’s the end and makes perfect sense.

What other ending could be? Ellie killing Abby? Like it matters anyway.

 

[ExpandKong]

This means what exactly?

 

[yeeeeeezy]

This means what exactly?

People with political agendas are seeking to destroy the game.

 

[ExpandKong]

People with political agendas are seeking to destroy the game.

And how are they doing that? Hijacking delivery trucks? Sabotaging digital delivery services?

Oh, they're making angry YouTube videos? You're right this is serious.

 

[yeeeeeezy]

And how are they doing that? Hijacking delivery trucks? Sabotaging digital delivery services?

Oh, they're making angry YouTube videos? You're right this is serious.

Apparently it's serious enough to make rage bait videos about it everyday. I'm not expecting much effort from these low lives.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

Well, we don’t see an image with “The End”, but the leaks tell us that’s the end and makes perfect sense.

What other ending could be? Ellie killing Abby? Like it matters anyway.

How it ends doesn't matter, from the guy a few pages ago telling us how excited for the game he is, lol.

 

[DForce]

Most people b***hing on Youtube didn't have any problem with Neil Druckmann until late April

This means they liked Uncharted 4, Uncharted Lost Legacy and The Last of Us without knowing his political beliefs. Now they're going back looking at the games and saying, "Look at this SJW propaganda they're trying to force down our throats."

This means the majority didn't focus on politics while playing this game and now they are.

 

[Woggleman]

This has been brewing ever since that trailer with Ellie and Dina kissing but it boiled over with the leaks.

 

[Sakura Doritos]

I am subscribed to geeks n gamers and the quartering, amazing Lucas, etc. I am on the right. Do not tell me these people are not on the right. There are political agendas at play here. To pretend otherwise is to lie.

Maybe you are misrepresenting them because you are projecting your political affiliation on them? For instance, the Quartering has said many times he has considered himself a progressive in the past. Until these far left people co-opted the left and anything right of Nancy Pelosi is considered was far right most people considered themselves centrist or just left of center on many things. You aren't right wing because you have share some common threads. There is more nuance to that and to say otherwise is you buying into ideological nonsense.

 

[Woggleman]

Many far right types claim that they used to be progressive. My cousin who was worshipping Rush Limbaugh back in the 90s still claims there was some time in his life when was a liberal.

 

[Sakura Doritos]

This has been brewing ever since that trailer with Ellie and Dina kissing but it boiled over with the leaks.

I think this has been brewing since Disney put a Marry Sue as their front and center character of a beloved Star Wars franchise and put people who have no business in comic books at the helm of popular franchises while kicking out anyone who didn't agree with their ideology.

 

[Sakura Doritos]

Many far right types claim that they used to be progressive. My cousin who was worshipping Rush Limbaugh back in the 90s still claims there was some time in his life when was a liberal.

More projection.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Most people b***hing on Youtube didn't have any problem with Neil Druckmann until late April

This means they liked Uncharted 4, Uncharted Lost Legacy and The Last of Us without knowing his political beliefs. Now they're going back looking at the games and saying, "Look at this SJW propaganda they're trying to force down our throats."

This means the majority didn't focus on politics while playing this game and now they are.

Nathan Drake is still alive. Joel's skull is crushed by the daughter of a dead surgeon and then you have to play the game as her.

But keep on accusing gamers they are anti-SJW.

 

[DForce]

Nathan Drake is still alive. Joel's skull is crushed by the daughter of a dead surgeon and then you have to play the game as her.

But keep on accusing gamers they are anti-SJW.

Where was all of this when Uncharted 4 and Uncharted Lost Legacy released? Or what about the first 3 trailers of The Last of Us?

I guess something changed when they found out that Joel was killed by a female character. What's even worse is that they believe in fake plot leaks. That had NO problems with ND games up until last week and now they're seeing their games as SJW propaganda.

There's no defending that.

 

[Thabass]

Nathan Drake is still alive. Joel's skull is crushed by the daughter of a dead surgeon and then you have to play the game as her.

But keep on accusing gamers they are anti-SJW.

Yeah, I don't even care if Abby is trans. I don't care Ellie is a lesbian, I don't care about the SJW issue. I care that I have to play as this person I have no emotional contact with and have to kill the one I had that relationship with, Ellie. I'm also upset Ellie dies in general. I wanted her to be the kind of face of the franchise because I found her story interesting.

And then....this happens.

 

[yeeeeeezy]

Maybe you are misrepresenting them because you are projecting your political affiliation on them? For instance, the Quartering has said many times he has considered himself a progressive in the past. Until these far left people co-opted the left and anything right of Nancy Pelosi is considered was far right most people considered themselves centrist or just left of center on many things. You aren't right wing because you have share some common threads. There is more nuance to that and to say otherwise is you buying into ideological nonsense.

you're not disputing anything I'm saying. The quartering is clearly center right. All of his content is. Politics change over time. A decade ago maybe he'd consider himself to be on the left. But this isn't a decade ago.

 

[DForce]

Yeah, I don't even care if Abby is trans. I don't care Ellie is a lesbian, I don't care about the SJW issue. I care that I have to play as this person I have no emotional contact with and have to kill the one I had that relationship with, Ellie. I'm also upset Ellie dies in general. I wanted her to be the kind of face of the franchise because I found her story interesting.

And then....this happens.

We don't know if Ellie lives or die.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Where was all of this when Uncharted 4 and Uncharted Lost Legacy released? Or what about the first 3 trailers of The Last of Us?

I guess something changed when they found out that Joel was killed by a female character. What's even worse is that they believe in fake plot leaks. That had NO problems with ND games up until last week and now they're seeing their games as SJW propaganda.

There's no defending that.

In Uncharted games, where's Drake getting killed, all the gay and lesbian story lines with cut scenes and couples getting into spats where one is pregnant?

 

[DForce]

In Uncharted games, where's Drake getting killed, all the gay and lesbian story lines with cut scenes and couples getting into spats where one is pregnant?

What?

 

[Collin]

Do you guys remember TLOU1 differently than me? It seems to me the point that game ultimately was making was a meta one. The game intentionally gave the player ludo-narrative dissonance by having you play as Joel during his hospital rampage at the end, which was a morally ambiguous choice he made that you as the player are now complicit in. He wasn’t the badass John Maclaine hero saving the day, he was being a selfish asshole. That’s why the games story is so praised, it explored complex and morally ambiguous characters.

I’m not going to defend the game FULLY yet since I haven’t played it, (although that hasn’t stopped many of you austic nerds from deciding it’s the worst game ever) but having read the same leaks you guys have, I’ll say it atleast has potential.

Abby killing Joel suggests a smart dramatic irony because it has Joel dying by the hand of a person operating on the same exact principles he did - a violent act of selfish nature.

By that logic, I really don’t think the choice was made just as a “fuck you to white men” and “girl power!!”

If anything, it’s the opposite - Abby and Joel are two most morally similar characters in the whole franchise. It’s not “women rule!” it’s “we’re all morally-corrupt bias selfish assholes”

I’ll reserve my final judgment for the actual game, as all of you should, but just give Neil the chance to tell something complex. When a fanbase acts so obnoxiously like this, it’s no wonder some people scoff at the idea that video games can be art.

 

[bronk]

At the end of the game I hope clickers kill everyone.

 

[TGO]

It's not heroic to kill a wounded woman begging for her life. If Joel is just a hero to you you need to re-evaluate things.

And if he didn't?
Re-evaluate indeed
But I wouldn't say he was a hero though
But still..

 

[Thabass]

We don't know if Ellie lives or die.

I thought the whole point of the spoilers I read was that Ellie dies?

 

[DForce]

I thought the whole point of the spoilers I read was that Ellie dies?

Those are the fake spoilers most people are mad about.

Ellie looks like she's dead after he fight with Abby, but she's not. This is why people believe that plot leak is real.

 

[Thabass]

Those are the fake spoilers most people are mad about.

Ellie looks like she's dead after he fight with Abby, but she's not. This is why people believe that plot leak is real.

May have saved the sale for me then. That was literally the only thing I disliked about the stuff I've seen. As I said before, I don't care playing Abby at all, I just don't want Ellie to die.

 

[Jon Neu]

How it ends doesn't matter, from the guy a few pages ago telling us how excited for the game he is, lol.

I was referencing if Ellie kills Abby.

But yeah, the story of the game isn’t something I’m excited about.

The graphics, the gameplay, the animations, the production value is what I’m anticipating.

 

[Jon Neu]

I am subscribed to geeks n gamers and the quartering, amazing Lucas, etc. I am on the right. Do not tell me these people are not on the right. There are political agendas at play here. To pretend otherwise is to lie.

And I‘m on the left and SJW are the worst thing that ever happened to the left.

And Cuckmann isn’t a progressive, he is a regressive.