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[yeeeeeezy]

We don’t need to explore anything, again, Cuckmann himself has said so. Whatever rationalizations you could invent as to why X,Y,Z isn’t woke are irrelevant and a waste of time.

Ok so Druckmann says he doesn't like overly sexualized female characters in video games. So he creates characters like Elena from Uncharted. How did Neil's politics, which affected Elena's design, affect your enjoyment of the Uncharted games?

 

[StreetsofBeige]

To be honest, I am not bothered with Ellie being gay, or Abby being he/she/they or whatever pronoun is. If the character fits into the shoe - I am fine. Even if there's some sort of hidden agenda - as long as the story makes sense and keeps me engaged, I really care any less on the gender or whatnot. Being masters of storytelling - I'm sure they spent a lot of time to make things sensible and understandable.

What bothers me though - is being forced to partake to play Abby in fight against Ellie. And that seems to be the key point to the game. To experience the other side and why they are also just.

I haven't seen the whole leak - but it seems like Joel's death is pretty early in the game - and I was always thinking Ellie's revenge was about Dina - either she got kidnapped or killed by the hostile group. I guess that was the trick that they set up. If the scenes of Joel's death correct - it looks like it's part of FMV. He would get killed in an event scene, not by my choice of playing Abby.

It's brutal and as a fan of the first game - very disappointing - but I get it. He became pretty resolved character at the end of the first game. Not Ellie, but he did. He did what he wanted to do and succeeded - even if he saved Ellie against her own will by lying to her. I would do the same to save my own daughter, if I was in the same position. Having said so - I don't dislike Abby because of her gender or looks - I just don't like her because Abby killed Joel. Spent many hours playing him in the original, and being a single father with a daughter, I related to him the most in the game and with his own faults and all - I liked the guy.

But having to play as the character who kills him - and actively fight against Ellie at some point in the game in such brutal way... Ellie, the character that I spent most time fighting, protecting and chatting and bonding with the full duration of last game - it's something that's pretty difficult to put my hands on - at least at this point of time. If it's all FMV, I may be able to watch in like in 3rd person view, but having to actively participate - I'm not sure if I would want to. Actually, I don't want to.. as much as I want to play the game and find out what happens. I'm sure they would put some good story behind Abby's group too to make them likable and relatable - making the final clash between Ellie and Abby being even more tragic - but at this point - I just don't feel like playing Abby at all. If I did, I may just sit there and take in all the fire in every possible way for my cheap way of revenge of my own.

After all, it's just a game. Digital pixels and all... but it feels like Naughty Dog is telling me to put my hands dirty with this digital guilt if I want to play the game. It's a fine line - sure I head-shot many enemies in these types of games - but somehow, this feels much more personal and visceral. The sheer brutality of the original game was hard and made me feel pretty bad... but looks like this one is going to one-up, I mean many up on that one even more... with a golf club.

I mean, I now think of all the guys that I killed with the pickax while playing as Lara Croft... Oh the horror..

Well said.

Looks like your view fits some of the bullet points I made just 5 minutes ago.

Don't let any defenders blanket you into their "Gamer X hates game due to being transphobe" narrative.

 

[Jon Neu]

Ok so Druckmann says he doesn't like overly sexualized female characters in video games. So he creates characters like Elena from Uncharted. How did Neil's politics, which affected Elena's design, affect your enjoyment of the Uncharted games?

Elena was boring and Nadine was SJW porn made character.

Still loved the game.

 

[Paracelsus]

Ok so Druckmann says he doesn't like overly sexualized female characters in video games. So he creates characters like Elena from Uncharted. How did Neil's politics, which affected Elena's design, affect your enjoyment of the Uncharted games?

For one thing it was Amy Hennig that created Elena and Chloe, Neil created sex symbols like Abby and Nadine.

Second: Elena is a holdover from before he had full creative control of ND and the industry had shifted entirely towards full blown liberal bias.

Third: Where the f* is Elena overly sexualized? Having a pretty face and a generic woman's body equals overly sexualized?

If Elena is considered overly sexualized that speaks a lot of the average woman in the current Naughty Dog world.

 

[Jtibh]

 

[Halo is Back]

My other main issue is that the very last scene when Joel lies to Ellie about the fireflies that entire plot point will have no meaning and is wasted by having Joel be killed halfway through the game. The heart of TLOU is Joel's and Ellie's relationship. Instead of facing the aftermath of his consequences by lying to Ellie he faces them by death. To me, that is big wasted potential of what the story can actually be. But instead we are given a lame revenge story about the cycle of Violence and the newest trailer seems to be showing Ellie being super brutal because of Joel's death. I could be all wrong about this, it could be addressed in the game, but judging by Ellie's mission for revenge I have my doubts.

 

[ruvikx]

Elena was boring and Nadine was SJW porn made character.

Still loved the game.

Elena is a killjoy in Uncharted 4, in the most basic terms. She was out of character as well, i.e. from the "let's go find the treasure!" Elena in Uncharted 1 (Drake is literally the one who says it's not worth dying for in that game whilst Elena wants more action adventure) she became a nagging wife guilting Drake (& by association the player) into giving up action adventure treasure hunting.

The scene where she scolds Drake never sits well with me because despite the revelation of Sam's lie, Elena didn't know that at the time. If I had a brother in Sam's position, I'd do what Drake did. So I don't need an NPC in a video game parroting Neil Druckmann's moralism telling me it's wrong... especially after I spent 60 euros on the game in order to actual have some action adventure.

 

[yeeeeeezy]

For one thing it was Amy Hennig that created Elena and Chloe, Neil created sex symbols like Abby and Nadine.

Second: Elena is a holdover from before he had full creative control of ND and the industry had shifted entirely towards full blown liberal bias.

Third: Where the f* is Elena overly sexualized? Having a pretty face and a generic woman's body equals overly sexualized?

If Elena is considered overly sexualized that speaks a lot of the average woman in the current Naughty Dog world.

She’s not overly sexualized. Just like Ellie. It seems odd to me that people have a beef with Neil having a preference for creating female characters who are not overly sexualized. It’s his creation. Ellie turned out great and his politics clearly were an influence. So what?

 

[Collin]

To the people who are hating, can you atleast play the game first before deciding it sucks? I think these choices sound bold and interesting. How could you possibly equate reading a plot point written out by some artless autistic dork as the same as experiencing the moment with the music, buildup, shot composition, and acting in the game itself? By that logic, why play any games story or watch any movie? Why don’t you dump apes just read wikipedia summaries for everything and call it a day?

Also, for the record: Joel NEVER was the hero. The whole ending of TLOU1 was proving that he was putting his own selfish interests over the interests of his people. Druckmann exploring the consequences of that ending is interesting narrative direction. It has potential for complexity and nuance. Just give him the chance to tell it. God knows he could have made some dopey safe story where Joel and Ellie save the day and you simpleton fucks probably would eat it up.

Also, I’m the last person to push SJW virtue signaling bullshit, and sure, there’s seems to be an overcompensation of “woke” adjacent characters here, but frankly, we’ve seen a lot of white male heroes over the years - I’m fine with 1 game having less of them just this once.

 

[009EspadaSageJay]

Really shitty from Cuckmann to literally put other videogame characters on the stage to shame them.

Could you imagine if any other dev made a conference and started to trash the design choices of ND?

But for this people, everything that matters is their message. If they have to be disrespectful assholes, they don’t care. Literally too full of their own shit.




I played Uncharted 4 first, if that answers your question.

Past gen I was an Xbox 360 guy. I had the PS3 for sometime, but I just didn’t play it too much.

I bought the remastered version of TLOU for my Pro and I played maybe like 15 minutes and I didn’t liked the outdated graphics, the slow pace and the gameplay. I didn’t had much time so I wanted a quick diversion, so I didn’t had the patience to get used to the game.

I know that’s on me, happened the same with God Of War or RDR2, I’ve played them quick first and got bored fast, so I abandoned them literally for months.

But now with the confinment I have much more time in my hands and I have absolutely loved RDR2 and God Of War now that I completed them.

So yeah, I’m planning to buy the remaster of TLOU and give it another try before the second part comes out.

Thank you for asking.

Neil is a dick everyone on some surface level has respect for the hobby in one way or another I have never seen any other dev go hurr hurr this design bad because I said so. I cant think of a single person even as bad as Cliffy B can get he still references other games for his ideas in a positive light same thing with hideki kamiya and platinum games. Neil is the only one that goes up there and trys to make some grand speech about fictional characters in video games and real life role models

 

[009EspadaSageJay]

I guess but that was kind of expected wasn't it? He was getting older in a world that probably isn't all that conducive to the survival of old people. He also has a massive history of being involved with violent situations. I have only read the spoilers so perhaps it is in the details, the way it is done?

Joel dying to a golf club is pathetic this dude cleaned out an entire hospital john wick style. Joel is like Snake from MGS the only person beating snake is either Age or a foe on the par of Snake. Snake/Big boss is not going to die from some random NPC soldiers kid.

 

[DerFuggler]

Calling it now; Ellie loses everything throughout the course of the game and ends up killing herself [fade to black, roll credits]. Also, Neil--if you're reading this--please turn your hard drive(s) into the police.

 

[009EspadaSageJay]

GTA V had Trevor kill a former protagonist in a disrespectful way for no good reason at all plus he spent the rest of the game being a scumbag yet there wasn't this level of backlash. Abby at least has a real reason to hate Joel and his violence is coming back to bite him. I have mixed feelings about it but she has better reasons than Trevor did.

Both were side characters if were being honest Johnny was just a toned down version of Trevor there both drug dealers and involved in may illegal acts its not the 1st time some one in GTA got killed off scene or by another character. No one in GTA,RDR,Max payne, midnight club, La noire, is considered invincible from a story stand point ever in any of those games everyone can be beat in one way or another.

 

[DForce]

Blocking comments to suppress spoilers is understandable, but saying people are bringing politics into the game.... seriously? The politics are already in the game. Not to mention Druckmann has made it pretty clear where he stands politically.

- They're killing off Joel because he's a man.
- They're making Joel look like the villain because he's a white man.
- Story being about a homophobic christian cult mean they want to show us how there's an attack on gay and trans people

These are narratives created by people criticizing TLOU Part II.

 

[DForce]

Why did Sony disable likes then?

If you're reading false leaks and you're upset with ND, do you think it's fair to go on their YouTube channel to spoil and dislike their video?

The answer is no.

 

[Halo is Back]

If you're reading false leaks and you're upset with ND, do you think it's fair to go on their YouTube channel to spoil and dislike their video?

The answer is no.

That dose't explain them disabling likes and dislikes. Gives no detail about story at all, for all fans know it could just be a lot of trolls. Abby was not shown once in the story trailer which is kind of misleading and possibly setting themselves up for more disappointment. Still though, the trailer was nice and admittedly got me a little hopeful. I guess we will have to wait and see.

 

[Macapala]

- They're killing off Joel because he's a man.
- They're making Joel look like the villain because he's a white man.
- Story being about a homophobic christian cult mean they want to show us how there's an attack on gay and trans people

These are narratives created by people criticizing TLOU Part II.

Those first two points can be combined into one. Anyway, I'm not saying I agree with that narrative, but I do find it a bit suspicious that Druckmann would kill off the main character of the first game, seemingly very early on in the story.

There has always been a negative light put upon gay/trans people. If the game has a homophobic cult that doesn't necessarily mean there is a political message being pushed. That said, knowing who is behind the story (Neil Cuckma'am, sorry I couldn't help myself) it wouldn't surprise me if that was the intention.

 

[Paracelsus]

Why people do the mistake of comparing old twists like "he was always dead" to what is happening in TLOU?
What happened in TLOU2 is nothing like that.
This is like killing John McClane in Die Hard 3 by the hand of the brother of one of the crooks John killed in Nakatomi, he was then a little boy and his brother needed money to pay for his medical expenses. So, he kills John in an act of revenge, and then proceeds to stop Simon Gruber because Hans got his big brother killed.

The first question that comes to mind is "who told you anybody wanted this new character, and why would I care? F U, Give me back John".

Nobody asked for Abby, people falling for the sympathetic retcon of her character would eat anything and defend anything.
Want to write Abby in the game? Cool, then have Ellie cut her head off at the end, and then it's fine.
Retroactively fit her as a heroine? Screw you.
Joel doesn't need to be demonized, he was never a great person, but it doesn't matter because a hero doesn't have to be perfect or fully good. Writing is fully of morally ambiguous characters.

 

[TGO]

This is Terminator Dark Fate all over again
Decent movie in it's own right but completely shits the original two films
That film completely killed the franchise

 

[Mato]

Here's Abby with a beard. hOT dAMN.

 

[Paracelsus]

She even has steroid acne, they really thought of everything.

 

[Pantz]

Seeing this gif reply around Twitter

Gave me a good chuckle

 

[cormack12]

Someone pointed this out on Twitter.

Someone might say the leaked footage is new, but look the tattoo on her arm.

1. Joel is older
2. The tattoo on her arm looks like the final version.

Good find, I assume the trailer footage will always be newer. I'm assuming the leaked stuff is using dev or placeholder assets (and even imported assets from the old game, like Joels model) in order to frame the scene. Then later on get swapped out for the actual assets as they are in-engine. Happens a lot in dev. I think Neil said they did pretty much the same when they ported the original engines from PS3 to PS4, and then just ran it to make sure it executed and obviously some shit broke. They won't create all assets and then work on the next part, it all has to eb doen in parallel.

So I'm guessing that was the first Ellie model they created, didnt have one for Joel that was new and just cut it with what they had to see how it all fitted together and how the segue's played out.

 

[Clear]

"Damn this trailer would be intense if I didn't know how it ended".

You still don't know how the game ends you dumbass. At most you've seen a couple of clips and cherry picked the one out of several "leaked" synopses -each of which has a different ending- that best fits your expectations and used one to "prove" the other.

Its all intellectually bankrupt.

 

[Jon Neu]

"Damn this trailer would be intense if I didn't know how it ended".

You still don't know how the game ends you dumbass. At most you've seen a couple of clips and cherry picked the one out of several "leaked" synopses -each of which has a different ending- that best fits your expectations and used one to "prove" the other.

Its all intellectually bankrupt.

You know we know how the game ends, right?

 

[Strategize]

You know we know how the game ends, right?

How does it end?

 

[Explosive Zombie]

the comparison people keep making are so weird, like killing John McClane or John Connor dying in Dark Fate (lol I love the claim that Dark Fate killed the franchise, something you could say about every entry since and including 3, the franchise has killed 3 studios but the idea that no one would try again with the IP is laughable). So, in the Terminator films John Connor is the fabled leader of the resistance, a hero and a legend. In the Die Hard films sure McClane has a normal guy appeal but they're also called DIE HARD because of how hard he is to kill, he introduced a new type of badass to the action film genre, one of a different stripe than the Stallones and Arnolds. Though more fallible and ending the movies covered in blood and bruises he isn't the sort of character you actually kill. These are both action franchises, The Last of Us has action... it also has horror... but it's a drama. Compare it to zombie fiction, the Road, Children of Men... stuff like that, stuff with a more serious and grim tone, stuff where main characters perish, are fallible or are even outright wrong. Stop comparing it to stuff it shouldn't be compared to.

 

[TGO]

the comparison people keep making are so weird, like killing John McClane or John Connor dying in Dark Fate (lol I love the claim that Dark Fate killed the franchise, something you could say about every entry since and including 3, the franchise has killed 3 studios but the idea that no one would try again with the IP is laughable). So, in the Terminator films John Connor is the fabled leader of the resistance, a hero and a legend. In the Die Hard films sure McClane has a normal guy appeal but they're also called DIE HARD because of how hard he is to kill, he introduced a new type of badass to the action film genre, one of a different stripe than the Stallones and Arnolds. Though more fallible and ending the movies covered in blood and bruises he isn't the sort of character you actually kill. These are both action franchises, The Last of Us has action... it also has horror... but it's a drama. Compare it to zombie fiction, the Road, Children of Men... stuff like that, stuff with a more serious and grim tone, stuff where main characters perish, are fallible or are even outright wrong. Stop comparing it to stuff it shouldn't be compared to.

Like The Walking Dead right?
So you think killing off Rick was a good idea?

 

[MDSLKTR]

You know we know how the game ends, right?

I'm pretty sure we don't, the leaks stop at one point but it doesn't set up part 3, just the rest of the game.

 

[Jon Neu]

How does it end?

With Abby beating Ellie and Noselina to a pulp, but somehow sparing their life in some bullshit last second change of mind/plot armor when she was about to murder a pregnant teen with joy.

Then the epilogue, in which Noselina has a baby and tries to form a family with Ellie, but she goes looking for Abby instead while wearing Joel’s jacket.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

Like The Walking Dead right?
So you think killing off Rick was a good idea?

I don't think because your media involves zombies or is dramatic means it's always okay to kill your mains, I'm just saying it's more likely to happen and have a justification in such media than it would in an action franchise with action heroes.

Spoiler

I haven't been watching TWD lately, I thought after the credits they show Rick alive in a helicopter being taken somewhere and he's going to be starring in a trilogy of TWD movies? Or do you mean the comic? Didn't finish it yet

 

[Strategize]

With Abby beating Ellie and Noselina to a pulp, but somehow sparing their life in some bullshit last second change of mind/plot armor when she was about to murder a pregnant teen with joy.

Then the epilogue, in which Noselina has a baby and tries to form a family with Ellie, but she goes looking for Abby instead while wearing Joel’s jacket.

Any proof that's the epilogue?

 

[Jon Neu]

Any proof that's the epilogue?

The leaks?

 

[Explosive Zombie]

The leaks?

Leaked footage doesn't tell us definitively how the game ends, in fact the leaked footage suggests we don't see the ending. If you're going by different summaries people have supplied then you're going off pure conjecture with no real proof behind it.

 

[Strategize]

The leaks?

Where in the video footage does it say "THIS IS THE EPILOGUE", because far as I can see it looks like the end of the farm chapter.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

Where in the video footage does it say "THIS IS THE EPILOGUE", because far as I can see it looks like the end of the farm chapter.

Yep, after Ellie leaves for revenge it transitions to Abby looking for the Fireflies, how is that an ending? It's just her and Lev talking about where the Fireflies might be, we have no clue what happens after that.

 

[Airbus Jr]

Yep, after Ellie leaves for revenge it transitions to Abby looking for the Fireflies, how is that an ending? It's just her and Lev talking about where the Fireflies might be, we have no clue what happens after that.

We have no clue bcos thats where the story ends

 

[Clear]

We have no clue bcos thats where the story ends

No, that's where the leaked footage ends, and ties in with a list of captions someone found in a selection menu. The combination of the two things seems to me where most of the "leaked synopses" come from. Its why I'm yet to see a single noteworthy event mentioned that isn't shown in the leaked footage.

Its like the supposed "chapter list" that people have used to string together their narratives from is amazingly thin on detail. What has to be hours of play-time, containing numerous cut-scenes and major events are skipped over/summarized in single unenlightening captions, and yet when it comes to the end of the story we're supposed to be believe the last 2 chapters are comprised solely of a couple of short cut-scenes only?

Its all very convenient for the haters, who lets face it aren't interested in giving the game a fair shake anyway.

 

[MDSLKTR]

We have no clue bcos thats where the story ends

According to the one source we have only, the leaks could just be the end of that chapter which was enough to cause a internet shitstorm.

 

[plushyp]

Someone pointed this out on Twitter.


Leaked footage.

Trailer footage

Someone might say the leaked footage is new, but look the tattoo on her arm.

1. Joel is older
2. The tattoo on her arm looks like the final version.

Sometimes you need to take the content you've viewed in a trailer with a grain of salt. Companies love using misdirection to trick viewers so that important plot points or twists aren't spoiled. I've seen this happen a lot with sequels and a major one I can remember is Avengers: Endgame where it edited out certain characters from the trailer. Over here they've simply swapped the younger models with the older ones. This particular moment is another example of a misdirection and based on the leaks they were talking about what happened at the end of the first game.

 

[Clear]

Think the above supports my contention all along that what got leaked was folder full of videos generated for QA purposes.

 

[ruvikx]

Sometimes you need to take the content you've viewed in a trailer with a grain of salt. Companies love using misdirection to trick viewers so that important plot points or twists aren't spoiled.

Or, the leaked videos are simply from an earlier build where certain graphical details & designs hadn't yet been finalized. I've seen way more companies change design aspects between early footage, trailers & the final game than I ever have seen any use purposeful "misdirection". If it was a Kojima game, I might agree. But Naughty Dog? No, I doubt it.

 

[Jtibh]

"Damn this trailer would be intense if I didn't know how it ended".

You still don't know how the game ends you dumbass. At most you've seen a couple of clips and cherry picked the one out of several "leaked" synopses -each of which has a different ending- that best fits your expectations and used one to "prove" the other.

Its all intellectually bankrupt.

I think by that he means you play abby for all of the second half of the game.

And that the trailer is missleading cuz of that.

I personaly dont care how the game ends but if you sell me a solid snake game only to end up playing raiden for most of it i would be pissed.

 

[Paracelsus]

This is turning into a whole game of deflection and denial.
The main problem from the leak, the thing that cannot be undone, is that Joel is killed like a piece of shit in an act of revenge by a character they are pulling out their asses and putting into a sympathetic playable role for cheap ass moral ambiguity.

"See? Joel didn't say a thing or did some thing to somebody, what an asshole. I love Abby now, she cute with the purple bow <3".

Unless what we are missing is that Ellie kills Abby's bf first and then kills Abby herself like Sal Paconi in Death Wish 5, there is no excusing them. Abby lives at the end, they f***ed up.
For Joel to end the way he did and be replaced by Abby, he would have to be retconned into a child killer, a child molester or something as extremely vile and heinous.
He just happened to whack a bunch of demented people about to do something stupid.

 

[DForce]

Sometimes you need to take the content you've viewed in a trailer with a grain of salt. Companies love using misdirection to trick viewers so that important plot points or twists aren't spoiled. I've seen this happen a lot with sequels and a major one I can remember is Avengers: Endgame where it edited out certain characters from the trailer. Over here they've simply swapped the younger models with the older ones. This particular moment is another example of a misdirection and based on the leaks they were talking about what happened at the end of the first game.

Yes, I think that's most likely the case. But her tattoo makes me think some things may have changed.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

This is turning into a whole game of deflection and denial.
The main problem from the leak, the thing that cannot be undone, is that Joel is killed like a piece of shit in an act of revenge by a character they are pulling out their asses and putting into a sympathetic playable role for cheap ass moral ambiguity.

"See? Joel didn't say a thing or did some thing to somebody, what an asshole. I love Abby now, she cute with the purple bow <3".

Unless what we are missing is that Ellie kills Abby's bf first and then kills Abby herself like Sal Paconi in Death Wish 5, there is no excusing them. Abby lives at the end, they f***ed up.
For Joel to end the way he did and be replaced by Abby, he would have to be retconned into a child killer, a child molester or something as extremely vile and heinous.
He just happened to whack a bunch of demented people about to do something stupid.

Are you forgetting the wounded woman begging for her life that he blasts in the face? I think some of you have this weird perception of Joel and the worst part of your weird perception is you like him MORE if he's less flawed, which is just so odd to me, the more flawed a character the more interesting, I'd argue. I also wouldn't make assumptions about how his death is handled based on the out of context spoiler, we may have interesting build-up to it and interesting falling action for it.

 

[MagnesG]

Are you forgetting the wounded woman begging for her life that he blasts in the face? I think some of you have this weird perception of Joel and the worst part of your weird perception is you like him MORE if he's less flawed, which is just so odd to me, the more flawed a character the more interesting, I'd argue. I also wouldn't make assumptions about how his death is handled based on the out of context spoiler, we may have interesting build-up to it and interesting falling action for it.

Which one? Is it Marlene?

 

[yewles1]

I think by that he means you play abby for all of the second half of the game.

And that the trailer is missleading cuz of that.

I personaly dont care how the game ends but if you sell me a solid snake game only to end up playing raiden for most of it i would be pissed.

Thanks for reminding of what this current scenario reeks ENTIRELY of...

 

[TGO]

I don't think because your media involves zombies or is dramatic means it's always okay to kill your mains, I'm just saying it's more likely to happen and have a justification in such media than it would in an action franchise with action heroes.

Spoiler

I haven't been watching TWD lately, I thought after the credits they show Rick alive in a helicopter being taken somewhere and he's going to be starring in a trilogy of TWD movies? Or do you mean the comic? Didn't finish it yet

I haven't seen TWD since season 8 so I don't know
But regarding TLOU, people say Joel is a bad man but I don't think that at all.
He was father and I think he did what any other father would do.

Spoiler

I don't think anybody here wasn't expecting Joel to die eventually, they just don't like how it's been handled from the information known

But it probably plays out better
But it's hard to see how it would

 

[Paracelsus]

Are you forgetting the wounded woman begging for her life that he blasts in the face? I think some of you have this weird perception of Joel and the worst part of your weird perception is you like him MORE if he's less flawed, which is just so odd to me, the more flawed a character the more interesting, I'd argue. I also wouldn't make assumptions about how his death is handled based on the out of context spoiler, we may have interesting build-up to it and interesting falling action for it.

Ah, right, the Marlene trump card.
He had no choice. He risked his life to save Ellie, Marlene was basically about to get her killed to not risk hers. Since there was no way to make sure they would stop coming, he had to whack her.
Or you think kneecapping her would've been enough?