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[Bitstream]

Being annoyed hardware based AI upscaling isn't on the last gen AMD cards is no different than being annoyed that RTX wasn't backported to the 1080.
The silicon needed to crunch the numbers simply isn't there.
FSR4 works pretty damn well, but even without it the 9070 is a ridiculously performant card, often trading blows and sometimes even beating the 4080.

 

[Gameplay Gods Bless]

What's the difference between DLSS and machine learning?

DLSS was the first time we saw machine learning tech used for gaming. It's a temporal anti aliasing and upscaling technique which uses a Convuluted Neural Network or Transformer Neural Network to inference what the low resolution image you're seeing should look like at a higher resolution and then shows this higher resolution instead so the GPU no longer has to render it traditionally. For example 4k DLSS Performance mode is a 1080p image being reconstructed to 4k by DLSS.

It first started exceeding every other form of upscaling and AA when Nvidia released DLSS2 5 years ago and it's only gotten better since.

 

[YCoCg]

This article feels out of place, we already know AMD switched to AI based upscaling for FSR4 and it's done a great job. Yeah you can say AMD are behind but with FSR4 they've gone from being 5 years behind to 1 year.

And with all the shit Nvidia is pulling I'm sure most won't mind being a year behind if it avoids that shit.

 

[Trilobit]

It's a temporal anti aliasing and upscaling technique which uses a Convuluted Neural Network or Transformer Neural Network to inference what the low resolution image you're seeing should look like at a higher resolution

 

[Miyazaki’s Slave]

I have all of AMD's flagship cards and none of them compare to even the 4080 in terms of image quality IMO. Much less the 4090 and 50xx(80/90) cards. Yes the price is lower, but comparing apples to apples we are not.

That would be a HUGE achievement for AMD.

 

[Karim]

The issue with FSR4 is it being exclusive to a recent GPU only a fraction of AMD owners have and being exclusive to a certain select amount of games. [...] Too late, too little, too expensive.

It can be applied too to the Nvidia new gpus eh.

 

[Fake]

Could they implement this on the base PS5 or no? I have a 3080 PC so no real reason to use AMD's upscaler there until they can beat NVIDIA's, but it'd be great to get gains on a five-year-old console.

PS5 doesn't have AI hardware.

PS6 on the other hand will get all the feedback from PS5pro. Lets hope for PS6 a ultimate AI upscaler.

 

[viveks86]

Calling this redstone just made me realize why the collab with Sony is called Amethyst. Red+blue = purple

 

[Mr Moose]

Feature parity.
Everything is ML.

 

[Spukc]

So are these algorithms doing the similar to this? Or are they just the mathematical magic described in the video dressed up as AI?

Been a while since i watched something this fucking annoying on youtube..

Thanks

 

[SScorpio]

FSR 4 is on par with DLSS 3.

Which is nice, but DLSS 3 came out 2.5 years ago with Ada, and was updated to support path tracing in DLSS 3.5 on the same hardware. And we now have DLSS 4 which is even better running on all RTX cards.

Why buy a new AMD card when you could buy a used last gen NVIDIA card that does more and costs less? Intel's first attempt was ahead of FSR3, AMD needs to step up their game.

 

[metareferential]

It's time they actually deliver something. Latest FSR is a good start.

But nothing from AMD side actually compares to nvidia. That's why those assholes can do whatever.

 

[YCoCg]

Which is nice, but DLSS 3 came out 2.5 years ago with Ada, and was updated to support path tracing in DLSS 3.5 on the same hardware. And we now have DLSS 4 which is even better running on all RTX cards.

Why buy a new AMD card when you could buy a used last gen NVIDIA card that does more and costs less? Intel's first attempt was ahead of FSR3, AMD needs to step up their game.

Because FSR4 is trading blows with DLSS4 in some areas, if we go by overall averages it's currently like this,
DLSS4 Transformer>FSR4>DLSS3 CNN
Which considering it's their first jump into a proper AI based upscaler and it's already blasted past XeSS and PSSR isn't bad, again considering for years we had people here shouting the DLSS3 was perfect and you can't tell the difference.

 

[Moses85]

 

[YeulEmeralda]

This article feels out of place, we already know AMD switched to AI based upscaling for FSR4 and it's done a great job. Yeah you can say AMD are behind but with FSR4 they've gone from being 5 years behind to 1 year.

And with all the shit Nvidia is pulling I'm sure most won't mind being a year behind if it avoids that shit.

AMD isn't even competing with 5080/90.

Look I'm willing to call out Nvidia for being greedy corpo cunts but their tech is legit.

 

[YCoCg]

AMD isn't even competing with 5080/90.

Look I'm willing to call out Nvidia for being greedy corpo cunts but their tech is legit.

That is the curious case because AMD is focusing on the ranges that gamers want to buy, side stepping the high end for a generation or two could lead to something huge if they do go back.

 

[Puscifer]

I have been hearing this since FSR2. I don't believe em anymore.

I mean PSSR is FSR 4, this is just evolving from that so it should have parity or close to it again.

 

[SScorpio]

Because FSR4 is trading blows with DLSS4 in some areas, if we go by overall averages it's currently like this,
DLSS4 Transformer>FSR4>DLSS3 CNN
Which considering it's their first jump into a proper AI based upscaler and it's already blasted past XeSS and PSSR isn't bad, again considering for years we had people here shouting the DLSS3 was perfect and you can't tell the difference.

End of the day DLSS4 still beats FSR4 even if the comparison can get close. And RX9000 RT performance finally matches RTX 4000 cards. It's great AMD is reaching feature parity with NVIDIA previous gen. The problem is the RTX 5000 series are what AMD is competing with and for the complaints on price, you can find NVIDIA cards for closer to MSRP than the AMD cards.

And this is ignoring the fact that RTX 5000 is focusing on new types of rendering to move away from brute force rasterization. The cards will likely not end up being special just like the RTX 2000 series was seen as a bust. But it gives both developers and NVIDIA experience for where the future is going. I could see AMD's next gen sticking with the old way of doing things and NVIDIA ends up running circles around them once again.

 

[Rivdoric]

Another victory for fake pixels & mandatory fake resolution to get decent framerate with +$1000 GPU.

I hope we'll be able to push it to 640X480 so UE5 devs can stop optimizing once and for all.

 

[Bojji]

I mean PSSR is FSR 4, this is just evolving from that so it should have parity or close to it again.

I wish this was the case. PSSR is behind DLSS3 and FSR4 (I'm not sure about XeSS).

Maybe next year...

 

[Karim]

I wish this was the case. PSSR is behind DLSS3 and FSR4 (I'm not sure about XeSS).

Maybe next year...

You will continue to complain. PSSR is not that behind to DLSS3 neither in such terrible state as post like this seems to insinuate. AC Shadows it's a real good example.

 

[darrylgorn]

It's parity time!

 

[Fake]

I mean PSSR is FSR 4, this is just evolving from that so it should have parity or close to it again.

PSSR is not FSR4 as far as I remember. Will be close next year.

 

[TheRaidenPT]

I'm waiting for UDNA to replace my 7900XTX, it's been tough on unoptimized games or games in general that require up scaling. (DOOM Dark Ages for example)

I usually Brute Force with NATIVE AA using FSR 3 or XeSS 2, but I really really want FSR4 to play games on my tv

 

[Donald mac Ronald]

Feature parity? AMD customer about to feel like first class citizens

 

[Thief1987]

Another victory for fake pixels & mandatory fake resolution to get decent fake framerate with +$1000 GPU.

 

[b0uncyfr0]

FSR4 gets better? Great.

 

[SABRE220]

This raises some interesting points. I always wondered if the performance tanking in pathtracing workloads for rdna4 was due to software as the hardware seemed pretty capable. Could this lead to significant performance improvements in pathtracing workloads?

I always thought that it was a software problem since amd is literally just starting real support for it compared to Nvidia which kind of pioneered and nurtured the tech since rtx2xxx. The *path tracing acceleration* gives me hope but damn they better deliver after throwing titles like that.

Also what are the chances that this will carryover to PSSR I know fsr4 will come later this year but will that be it until ps6 or will this further iteration also carry over?

 

[Karim]

This raises some interesting points. I always wondered if the performance tanking in pathtracing workloads for rdna4 was due to software as the hardware seemed pretty capable. Could this lead to significant performance improvements in pathtracing workloads?

I always thought that it was a software problem since amd is literally just starting real support for it compared to Nvidia which kind of pioneered and nurtured the tech since rtx2xxx. The *path tracing acceleration* gives me hope but damn they better deliver after throwing titles like that.

Also what are the chances that this will carryover to PSSR I know fsr4 will come later this year but will that be it until ps6 or will this further iteration also carry over?

AMD and Sony have defined a long partnership, next year should be released sort of PSSR2 but we don't know if more major enhancements will be included in the next future on ps5 pro. The only sure thing is Sony will continue to use their branded upscaler and I doubt they will opt for FSR even in the future. But I guess the collaboration with AMD don't exclude similar stuff on PSSR incoming, I suspect PSSR and FSR will be very specular in features it will be just matter of different branded marketing terms used.

 

[moogman]

This raises some interesting points. I always wondered if the performance tanking in pathtracing workloads for rdna4 was due to software as the hardware seemed pretty capable. Could this lead to significant performance improvements in pathtracing workloads?

I always thought that it was a software problem since amd is literally just starting real support for it compared to Nvidia which kind of pioneered and nurtured the tech since rtx2xxx. The *path tracing acceleration* gives me hope but damn they better deliver after throwing titles like that.

Also what are the chances that this will carryover to PSSR I know fsr4 will come later this year but will that be it until ps6 or will this further iteration also carry over?

Ray Tracing and therefore Path Tracing is hardware accelerated, so when you say the hardware seems pretty capable you can't look at raster performance to know how capable they are at ray / path tracing.

Nvidia is 100% ahead for RT / PT capability and their ray tracing cores are more powerful (and done very differently hardware design-wise). They are catching up, but it's not innately a software issue, it's a hardware issue.

 

[Bojji]

You will continue to complain. PSSR is not that behind to DLSS3 neither in such terrible state as post like this seems to insinuate. AC Shadows it's a real good example.

My post? No.

Even saying that something is behind 2 or 3 things ON TOP doesn't change the fact that that there are things below it:

DLSS4->FSR4/DLSS3-->PSSR/XeSS-->TSR->FSR3.1->FSR2/3->TAAU--->FSR1

PSSR outside of extreme cases like Avatar (or jedi and outlaws at launch) is ok and usable, far from terrible. But based on other ML upscalers it can be much better, PS5 Pro is not weak when it comes to TOP performance so they just need to improve the algorithm.

 

[winjer]

DLSS4->FSR4/DLSS3-->PSSR/XeSS-->TSR->FSR3.1->FSR2/3->TAAU--->FSR1

I would put it this way.

DLSS4>FSR4>DLSS3>XeSS 2.0 XMX>PSSR>DLSS2>XeSS DP4A>TSR>FSR3.1>TAAU>SGSR>FSR1>NIS>DLSS1

 

[Bojji]

I would put it this way.

DLSS4>FSR4>DLSS3>XeSS 2.0 XMX>PSSR>DLSS2>XeSS DP4A>TSR>FSR3.1>TAAU>SGSR>FSR1>NIS>DLSS1

I have never seen XMX version of Xess but yeah there are 2 quality tiers to it.

Personally I can't stand FSR1 so that's why it's in the last place and I forgot that DLSS1 even existed lol.

 

[SolidQ]

I would put it this way.

I would split DLSS4 in TN and CNN modes. Like DLSS4(TN) > FSR4 > DLSS4(CNN)/DLSS3

 

[winjer]

I would split DLSS4 in TN and CNN modes. Different story

As far as I know, DLSS4 only uses Transformers. And DLSS2-3 uses CNNs.

 

[Bojji]

I would split DLSS4 in TN and CNN modes. Different story

CNN model is DLSS3. 310xx. dlls contain both DLSS3 (A-E) and DLSS4 (J, K).

 

[dgrdsv]

Being annoyed hardware based AI upscaling isn't on the last gen AMD cards is no different than being annoyed that RTX wasn't backported to the 1080.
The silicon needed to crunch the numbers simply isn't there.
FSR4 works pretty damn well, but even without it the 9070 is a ridiculously performant card, often trading blows and sometimes even beating the 4080.

If only there were some indication back in 2019 that things will go this way. But nah, how could've AMD known that when they've designed RDNA2 and 3?

 

[FireFly]

If only there were some indication back in 2019 that things will go this way. But nah, how could've AMD known that when they've designed RDNA2 and 3?

The design for RDNA 2 would probably have started in 2016.

 

[winjer]

If only there were some indication back in 2019 that things will go this way. But nah, how could've AMD known that when they've designed RDNA2 and 3?

No one could have guessed that AI would become so big when RDNA2 was being made. Even Sony decided not to have DP4A support on the PS5.
But for RDNA3, the writing was already on the wall and AMD should have made bigger strides with it's AI cores.

 

[YeulEmeralda]

No one could have guessed that AI would become so big when RDNA2 was being made. Even Sony decided not to have DP4A support on the PS5.
But for RDNA3, the writing was already on the wall and AMD should have made bigger strides with it's AI cores.

Same with path tracing. We went from Quake 2 to Cyberpunk in two years.

Personally I am quite enthusiastic about AI upscaling.

 

[winjer]

Same with path tracing. We went from Quake 2 to Cyberpunk in two years.

Personally I am quite enthusiastic about AI upscaling.

But AI is already delivering amazing results. Both in performance and quality.
RT hardware are still very lacking in performance. Turning it on, can cause huge drops in performance, going to half or a third of the original frame rate. And most games, it's just not worth it.
Hardware needs to catch up to the demands of RT workloads.

 

[MikeM]

The issue with FSR4 is it being exclusive to a recent GPU only a fraction of AMD owners have and being exclusive to a certain select amount of games. Meanwhile DLSS is supported across hundreds of games (most high-end games in recent years) and supports Nvidia GPUs from five years ago. And despite that, FSR4 is still inferior to the DLSS that 2xxx series Nvidia cards can run. This is a decisive defeat for AMD and one that may cost them the entire dedicated GPU segment. Too late, too little, too expensive.

Fsr 3.1 is all that is needed for FSR4 to work which any GPU can run. The install base for 9000 series is irrelevant.

 

[JohnnyFootball]

I have all of AMD's flagship cards and none of them compare to even the 4080 in terms of image quality IMO. Much less the 4090 and 50xx(80/90) cards. Yes the price is lower, but comparing apples to apples we are not.

That would be a HUGE achievement for AMD.

You clearly have not seen FSR4....and I cant blame you because it isn't widespread...but that achievement has already happened. I have seen enough of FSR4 to say that it is on par and in some cases better, some cases worse than DLSS4.

The advantage DLSS4 still has is support.

AMD really shot themselves in the foot by not going for the DLL model until FSR3.

 

[JohnnyFootball]

Fsr 3.1 is all that is needed for FSR4 to work which any GPU can run. The install base for 9000 series is irrelevant.

FSR4 is ONLY available on 9000 series GPUs. That is a fact. As you point out, any game with FSR 3.1 can be converted to FSR4.

FSR4 needs specific silicon instructions availabe only on the 9000 series.

 

[Bojji]

You clearly have not seen FSR4....and I cant blame you because it isn't widespread...but that achievement has already happened. I have seen enough of FSR4 to say that it is on par and in some cases better, some cases worse than DLSS4.

The advantage DLSS4 still has is support.

AMD really shot themselves in the foot by not going for the DLL model until FSR3.

DLSS4 is better than FSR4 in every aspect outside of disocclusion (when it's worse than DLSS3 as well):



But difference is small compared to DLSS 3 vs. FSR 3.1 where it was gargantuan. I wouldn't mind switching to 9070XT, that is great achievement from AMD.

 

[kevboard]

Same with path tracing. We went from Quake 2 to Cyberpunk in two years.

Personally I am quite enthusiastic about AI upscaling.

the kind of PathTracing used in Quake 2, or Portal RTX is not the same as the one in Cyberpunk and other "full raytracing" games.

Quake 2 renders literally every pixel you see through a ray being traced. zero rasterised 3D elements. you could not run Cyberpunk that way, as that would be insanely demanding since it requires the entire game with every minute detail and using the highest LOD to be part of the BVH.

it'll take a few more years until you could run Cyberpunk fully pathtraced.

 

[Karim]

I would split DLSS4 in TN and CNN modes. Like DLSS4(TN) > FSR4 > DLSS4(CNN)/DLSS3

As far as I know, DLSS4 only uses Transformers. And DLSS2-3 uses CNNs.

The funny thing not exist any evident tech data which can misure the quality of the AI upscaler on the market outside some amateurish video comparison based just to opinable nip and tuck of some visible details mostly used just to spread personal strokes as tech facts. Never understand the point of such childish ranking wave dicking.

 

[winjer]

The funny thing not exist any concrete tech data which can misure the quality of the AI upscaler on the market outside some amateurish video comparison based just to nip and tuck some visible details which people use just to spread their personal stroke. Never understand the point such stupid ranking.

Boji just posted a thorough analysis of FSR4, DLSS3 and DLSS4.

 

[Karim]

Boji just posted a thorough analysis of FSR4, DLSS3 and DLSS4.

Based on... video watching. "Eyes catched"is not tech data. I have many friends pc gamers able to find many flaws on dlss4 but they are not interested to make videos about it. The only thing I try to point out if someone want can easily demolish the DLSS4 with a personal analysis claiming it's in a bad state showing the flaws. Just a drastical example.

 

[winjer]

Based on... video watching. "Eyes catched"is not tech data. I have many friends pc gamers able to find many flaws on dlss4 but they are not interested to make videos about it. The only thing I try to point out if someone want can easily demolish the DLSS4 with a personal analysis claiming it's in a bad state showing the flaws. Just a drastical example.

Just watch the analysis, you will find that it's very accurate and technical.