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American Football 101 |OT| - Schemes, breakdown and professorial talk

You keep saying that Brady has no talent around him, but I'm certainly not seeing the lack of talent.

Has the best RT in football, one of the best interior lineman, one of the best young tackles in the game, the best TE, best slot/possession receiver, a flex TE that few teams can defend. If this is a lack of talent on O than most teams have fuck all.

Their D is shit, no question, the rules don't allow Bill's D to hold receivers all day long. Most of the blame can be laid at the feet of their scouting dept and personnel executives. Bill is still drafting LBs to stop the run, not the pass.

At some point, Bill and his cronies decided that the WR position no longer held value, or maybe he realized Brady couldn't attack the boundaries so they went a different direction. Dink and dunk, exploit the middle of the field, back to doing what Brady did when he was first developing as a QB in this league. It was all screens, short throws, use the TE and run game, very few vertical plays.

Maybe Bill thinks Brady isn't what he once was.
The "no talent" thing is me simplifying to troll Pats fans, mainly. Pats do have a lot of beef on the offensive side of the ball. I doubt very highly that any of it can lead them to a championship, and that includes Brady. Belichick is hamstringing himself trying to scheme around him.
 

squicken

Member
I have seen a couple media mentions of the Rams use of Mikell vs SF, and BAL possibly using Pollard in a similar role. Watching ATL play SF is so different. Rams wanted Kap to throw quick and short against a soft cushion. ATL seemed to want to confuse him with coverage, but got no pressure to make that matter
 

Talon

Member
So why are all teams switching up to 3-4 defenses do you think? Proliferation of Tight Ends? The versatility of the extra linebacker?
More athletes on the field. Passing offenses historically have more trouble identifying 3-4 defenses - see: Peyton's numbers against 3-4 teams.

Spag's just got fired in NOL, and Payton says they're going to a 3-4. With that personnel? :jnc
 

chuckddd

Fear of a GAF Planet
So why are all teams switching up to 3-4 defenses do you think? Proliferation of Tight Ends? The versatility of the extra linebacker?

I actually think it's about the nickel packages and, yes, the extra linebacker. My limited film study for the superbowl so far shows a whole lot of 2-4-5.
 

eznark

Banned
So why are all teams switching up to 3-4 defenses do you think? Proliferation of Tight Ends? The versatility of the extra linebacker?

Because I am a profit.

Honestly I think the flexibility of personnel is the reason. You don't have to have three or four guy who can only ever play three technique inside on the DL.
 

Bacon

Member
Does anyone have tips on what to look for when watching nfl coaches film? I like to think that I have a very solid understanding of the sport, but I have never watched film on the nfl before. Its a very overwhelming endeavor, for example, I just put on the san fran-green bay divisional game on and san francisco has used different formations for every single play in the first quarter. How is one supposed to make sense of that? If it helps, I am more interested in the offensive side of the ball, mostly pre snap adjustments and things of that nature. Thanks guys.
 

LJ11

Member
Does anyone have tips on what to look for when watching nfl coaches film? I like to think that I have a very solid understanding of the sport, but I have never watched film on the nfl before. Its a very overwhelming endeavor, for example, I just put on the san fran-green bay divisional game on and san francisco has used different formations for every single play in the first quarter. How is one supposed to make sense of that? If it helps, I am more interested in the offensive side of the ball, mostly pre snap adjustments and things of that nature. Thanks guys.

One question you should ask yourself after seeing all the different formations/alignments is whether they're running the same play/concept. You can run a drive concept multiple ways out of different formations, but the formation never changes the concept, a drive is a drive. When Mike Leach or his Air Raid protégés install an offense they don't really care about alignment/formations, they teach concepts and how to run them properly.

Don't get me wrong, you can out leverage an opponent by using formation and shifts, but the concept a team is using is more important. Teams also check to different defenses when they see a certain alignment, they may switch their pattern reads (who covers who ) in a zone D, so an offense can take advantage of that if they have an idea of what theyll check to against trips, and then hit him with a concept that attacks the coverage they expect.

Just keep replaying the play, it's hard to get a good look at everything in one playback. Look at the safties and receivers. Is it a trips formations? What are the safeties doing against a trips look? If they don't check out of the D then what coverage would they play against trips? Easy to kill Cover 2 out of trips, so if the safeties are staying back in split safety look its probably man under or quarters. How do you defeat quarters coverage? Can use a scissors concept, corner and deep post on front side, or a pin/mills concept (dig with a deep post to get one of the quarter defenders to bite and hit the post over the top). Or they could be blitzing and just playing Cover 0 with a pre snap split safety look.

Concepts, just try to learn as many passing concepts as you can, and how they're used to attack a defense. Guys like us won't see this stuff right away, so just replay it until you see what's going on.
 
So for the most draft inclined/scout types - what's the opinion on Tyler Eifert in comparison the Kyle Rudolph? They're both from Notre Dame of course but I'm curious on any comparison/contrasts to Kyle folks have for purely selfish reasons (he's been mocked to the Giants at a few sites).
 

eznark

Banned
I think the best way to understand what an offense is doing is by looking at the defense. Look from the outside in. So, start with the safeties. Most NFL teams aren't incredibly creative with safeties (especially in 2012) so you can quickly pick up what they are doing. Once you figure out how they react to certain formations move to the other DB's, etc. Once you get a good idea of how defenses are reacting you'll be able to understand what is going on. As soon as you start to see it you'll pick up on it. Try to focus on really good defenses that tend to sit in similar coverage with their back 5. So, the Bears for example. A lot of their variation comes in how their linebackers move. Should be easy to quickly pick up on how the secondary is playing and what they are doing in given situations. You'll then be able to translate that to your team.
 

Bacon

Member
Thanks for the great responses thus far, I was also wondering if anyone take notes on game film? Do you go by quarter, or by drive, or some other variation? At the end of the game would you look back at your notes and try to discern what kind of gameplan the teams were going for as a whole? Once again thanks for the responses, and I love the idea for this thread!
 
Thanks for the great responses thus far, I was also wondering if anyone take notes on game film? Do you go by quarter, or by drive, or some other variation? At the end of the game would you look back at your notes and try to discern what kind of gameplan the teams were going for as a whole? Once again thanks for the responses, and I love the idea for this thread!
Yep. What I'm jotting down depends on whether I'm watching offense or defense. Since eznark already went over some good things to watch on defense I'll focus on some basic offense. I tend to write down the formation the offense lines up in (2-1, 2-2, etc. which denotes two tight ends, two backs, 2 tight ends, 1 back set as an example), how many wide outs are on the field and where they are lined up and then I note whether the team is running or passing out of that formation. You can get a good feel for tendencies a team has that way and it's interesting to compare what they do in the first half with what they do after half-time (i.e. what adjustments they've made). The book in the second post "Take Your Eye Off the Ball" is really great at breaking some of that stuff down if you're just starting to watch film.
 

chuckddd

Fear of a GAF Planet
Thanks for the great responses thus far, I was also wondering if anyone take notes on game film? Do you go by quarter, or by drive, or some other variation? At the end of the game would you look back at your notes and try to discern what kind of gameplan the teams were going for as a whole? Once again thanks for the responses, and I love the idea for this thread!

I print out the play-by-play and then mark the formation/defensive alignment per play. I also note if there's anything special about the play, or if I want to watch it again. The first watch is straight through. Then I go back and watch the plays I noted and make any additional annotations.
 

squicken

Member
I think the key when first starting out is to focus on just a handful of plays. Watch a play over and over until you figure out why everyone on the field did what they did

btw I just can't get into this SB. I 'll watch it, but every time I have tried to put on the coaches tape of either team, I lose interest. If it's not the Rams or Colts or one of their opponents, I just can't get interested. I hope that you guys share all the stuff you collect for the Steelers, Bills, etc. I may not watch the film for your teams, but I'm interested in your takes on what they are doing

I've mentioned this before, and it will come up in the SB. The way the Rams used Mikell is how BAL will use Pollard, I think. Always around the LoS, mostly as an extra guy on the edge.
 
I think the key when first starting out is to focus on just a handful of plays. Watch a play over and over until you figure out why everyone on the field did what they did

This is good advice. What I did was pick two team (The Steelers and the Ravens, specifically) and watched each for how they attack one another on both sides of the ball.

A bit of advice - if you can't help but be homerish maybe its best to focus on another pair of teams. Analysis has no room for excuses and if you can't separate the fandom from it you'll never learn.
 

eznark

Banned
I actually watched the Tampa 2 teams back when I was in high school a lot because they generally have the most static secondary calls. So when I wanted to get a good read of what to watch for in a safety or how to see what assignments guys had in various defenses that's kind of where I started. So my advice would be to watch a bunch of Bears film, if you can stomach it, or find a team that is similarly talented-but-vanilla.
 

Cagey

Banned
So why are all teams switching up to 3-4 defenses do you think? Proliferation of Tight Ends? The versatility of the extra linebacker?

It's an ebb-and-flow based on trends in the NFL and college game alike, but the 3-4 tends to depend on the availability of 4-3 defensive line talent. Finding a stable of starting quality 300+ pound DTs stout against the run with agility to rush the passer and enough competent reserves to rotate in-and-out during the game (let alone injuries) is harder than finding a collection of 3-4 LB talent. Moving to the outside, the 4-3 defensive end v. the 3-4 OLB or "endbacker", it's not as pronounced but the same shortage applies.

In short, it's the George Young "Planet Theory" in action (LB v. DL).

Now, that's not to diminish the 3-4 among the best teams that run it, it's more to highlight that a team with mediocre or poor front seven talent can go shopping and equip itself to reach a level of average competency by pursuing a 3-4 more easily than the 4-3. Dem markets.

When the trend swings towards the 3-4 reaching a level of popularity such that the personnel isn't available at the quantity or at the discounted cost, you can see a correction.

EDIT: Since this is a Football 101 thread (excellent job Futurevoid... this would do wonders to raise BBI's IQ a point or two), the "Planet Theory" is simply that there's a finite number of men who are enormous, strong, and fast in one package on the planet... and if you can draft one, you damn well do so.
 

LJ11

Member
btw I just can't get into this SB. I 'll watch it, but every time I have tried to put on the coaches tape of either team, I lose interest. If it's not the Rams or Colts or one of their opponents, I just can't get interested. I hope that you guys share all the stuff you collect for the Steelers, Bills, etc. I may not watch the film for your teams, but I'm interested in your takes on what they are doing.

I'm not too excited either, dont think it'll be a good game.

There's a bit a football fatigue with me right now. I'm really interested in what the Browns, Jags, and Bills do on D (not being a homer, I've always liked Pettine from interviews/stories Ived read in the NYC papers). Defense has been on my mind lately, especially Carroll's. Can the Jags use single high as much as the Seahawks do? Can Pettine succeed without Rex and 12 defenders on the field, (Revis is that good)? And then you have the Browns and Horton back in his old division.
 

squicken

Member
I'm not too excited either, dont think it'll be a good game.

There's a bit a football fatigue with me right now. I'm really interested in what the Browns, Jags, and Bills do on D (not being a homer, I've always liked Pettine from interviews/stories Ived read in the NYC papers). Defense has been on my mind lately, especially Carroll's. Can the Jags use single high as much as the Seahawks do? Can Pettine succeed without Rex and 12 defenders on the field, (Revis is that good)? And then you have the Browns and Horton back in his old division.

Really interested in Cleveland. Horton was so good in AZ with those double A gap blitzes. I went through most of their games and even Tom Brady couldn't tell when it was a bluff or they were coming. Now he had great LBs in AZ for that style. CLE really doen't

As far as homerism or whatever, not sure I really understand. Why wouldn't I want FV (as an example) to do writeups on the Giants if that is the only team he really watches in-depth?
 

chuckddd

Fear of a GAF Planet
I haven't exactly been ripping through film, myself. Gonna call a halt to it tonight. I'll write my thoughts tomorrow.
 

LJ11

Member
Rewatching Niners/Seahawks. Before watching, I thought the Niners would cream the Ravens, now I'm not sure. Probably dumb, especially when you put this game into context. Ravens are slow in the back 7 and can't play as much single high as the Seahawks did, but they have can hold up in the front 4.

Honestly, Carroll coached circles around them in the first quarter alone, I think he was trolling at one point. They were using a lot of over fronts with Bryant holding the backside, basically inviting the Niners to run his way but it was a trap. Niners pulled and tried to out gap them but they couldn't do it, had more numbers than the Niners did and the interior got push easily.

Niners tried running counters to Bryant/weak side, but they got nowhere. Then the Seahawks went to a Bear/TNT front and the Niners decided to continue to try and pull a guard when that front normally blows up most pulls/sweeps.

Finally the Niners decided to run to strong side, right into the over front, but instead of keeping Clemons out there Carroll brings in Irvin and puts him backside while moving Bryant over to the strong side. Run gets blown up again, meanwhile, you have Irvin sitting backside doing fuck all and the Niners are trying to run into the Seahawks strength.

And that was only the first quarter.

What a fucking ass pounding, loved watching it again.
 

XiaNaphryz

LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
LJ, there was talk after the GB game from Greg Roman about how SF was purposely playing more plain/vanilla-type offensive sets in the last 2 games to throw-off their initial playoff opponent. Any credence to that in your study so far, or is it just talk?
 

chuckddd

Fear of a GAF Planet
Before I start writing, a couple of caveats. First, I'm just a guy who watches too much football. Second, I'm going to write this stream of consciousness style. I was planning on buffing up my post with some charts and graphs (gifs), but it came down to whether I wanted to watch film or figure out gif making. Also, I'd like to generate discussion here, so I won't mind disagreements, nitpicks, stupid questions, anything.

SF - Offense

Let's start with my general observations of the 49er offense. They love to work formations and personnel to their advantage. Tight End Delanie Walker is a factor. He lines up wide, he'll line up in the slot, but mostly he lines up in the backfield. He acts as a fullback a lot and he's a pretty good blocker. He can also go deep and get open underneath. If he could catch, he'd be all world. Of course, if he could catch, he'd probably not be doing a lot of blocking. But the problem he really presents is to the defense. When the 9er's roll out 12 personnel (1 back, 2 te's), should the defense leave their base personnel in? Then SF can split Vernon Davis and Walker out wide and exploit the coverage mismatch. If the defense goes nickel, SF can line up in that full house pistol formation and ram the ball down their throat. iirc, Jim Harbaugh used a lot of 13 personnel at Stanford. He loves using tight ends.

Speaking of that full house pistol formation, I like how the run the option out of it. They use the full back to lead on the end and then option the backer. Makes the backer pick a hole instead of a man, basically making it impossible to hedge and try and cover both.

Michael Crabtree is playing great. Getting open and catching the ball. What more could you want?

Finally, Colin Kaepernick. He's playing great. Has an absolute cannon of an arm. If he gets loose, it can be six in a hurry. He has the same weakness that most young qb's and plenty of old qb's have, he can get confused with his reads against zone defense.

SF - Defense

Unfortunately, I only watched the playoff games for the 9er's. I watched them play over 90% nickel. With the amount of power set the Ravens run, I'm sure we'll see a lot more of their base 3-4 defense. I'm only going to talk about what I saw. SF shows the same bacic look with their nickel, play after play. 2 down linemen, 4 linebackers, 3 cornerbacks and 2 safeties. Both outside backers on the line, both inside backers over the guards.

Coverage wise, they usually presented the same look, press man with the two safeties playing over the top. From that position, they played that coverage quite a bit. They also rotated to various zone coverages. Occasionally, they'd blitz a backer and play man under/single high safety. I noticed that both high safeties have a tendency to be late on deep routes up the sidelines. The Ravens will definitely target there.

SF - Final Thoughts

It's a little wierd, but watching the film of the 49er's made me feel uneasy. Most teams have a complimentary offense and defense. What I mean, is that most teams have a defense designed to stop their own offense. SF has an offense designed to beat it's own defense. 1. CK's greatest strength is running the ball out of the pocket when the other team has turned it's back because it's playing man defense. 2. That two high, man under is vulnerable to mismatches vis-a-vis getting a TE/RB man-on-man against a slow line backer. 3. The defense is also vulnerable to power running from that nickel set.


BAL - Offense

The Ravens are a power running team that likes to throw deep off of play action, a tried and true offense in football since time immemorial. In order for this type of offense to really shine, you need a good offensive line. Well, Baltimore has a fantastic offensive line. Extemely physical in the running game, athletic enough for the passing game. It's in the pass protection that I feel like they really shine. From the film I watched, they never missed a trade off when dealing with stunts. They never left a free blitzer. Sure, guys got beat from time to time, but they never got out flanked or out schemed.

Ray Rice is just awesome. Pretty much has all the traits of a great rb. Runs with power, speed, shiftiness and patience. Similarly to SF, Bal will shift into some open formations to get Rice and Pitta mismatched on linebackers. Often times, the Ravens will come out in 12 personnel and motion into an empty backfield.

Joe Flacco is a capable quarterback, but I won't call him elite. He has a big arm and makes good decisions from the pocket. He is also immobile and not the best at buying time to throw. If the offensive line does what they've been doing and stuffs the pass rush, Flacco will look great. Most qb's look great with time and a clean pocket. He's most prone to mistakes if the rush gets home or at least close to home.

Personally, I like their 11 personnel set. They've been making hay in the playoffs with this set, particularly with the hurry up offense. Torrey Smith and Anquan Boldin are spectacular. Jacoby Jones is pretty good. Dennis Pitta can easily burn linebackers. And Ray Rice is Ray Rice. It gets all of the Ravens best play makers on the field concurrently. I just wish they'd run the ball more out of it. Wish may be too strong a term...

BAL - Defense

Baltimore runs a base 3-4. They show a ton of complex looks and differing coverages. It's all designed to confuse the offense. Confuse the line with who is rushing and who is dropping into coverage. Confuse the quarterback with the same. On top of that, they have Ngata and Suggs. The whole point of all that confusion is to try and get the opposing offense to try and single block Suggs. Dude is an alien freak, tough to stop with one man, even a tackle.

Coverage wise, while Baltimore will use everything under the sun, most of it is designed to keep the offense in front of them. They play off and are content to give up the underneath stuff while waiting for the offense to make a mistake or one of their playmakers to make a play.

As a bonus, I watched some of the Ravens/Redskins game to see how Baltimore dealt with the read option. I believe Washington ran it 6 or 7 times and RG3 kept the ball exactly zero times. The defensive end attacked the quarterback every time, making RG3 hand the ball off. The Ravens gave up some yards on the dive, but the defense is pretty good at flowing and getting off of blocks, so they never gave up massive gains. Most of the yards that the 'Skins got were in the air.

BAL - Final Thoughts

Actually, these are my thoughts from Harbowl I, the Thanksgiving primetime game from last season. The Ravens defensive front absolutely destroyed the 49er's offensive line. Nine sacks. Nine. Preparing for the Ravens in 3 days is not easy. Let's see what happens with two weeks to prepare. Will Baltimore show some new looks and will those looks confuse the SF offense?

Baltimore wasn't exactly efficient on offense in that game, either. Ray Rice was under 3 ypc. Can the 49er's hold up against the run again and take away the play action pass from the Ravens?
 

Bacon

Member
I have a question about tight ends. When taking note of the formation do you typically count a tight end as a tight end only if he is lined up in the "classic" tight end spot (next to the tackle)? Say rob gronkowsky is split out wide, I would probably not count him as a tight end but as a wide receiver at that point, is that correct logic?
 

chuckddd

Fear of a GAF Planet
I have a question about tight ends. When taking note of the formation do you typically count a tight end as a tight end only if he is lined up in the "classic" tight end spot (next to the tackle)? Say rob gronkowsky is split out wide, I would probably not count him as a tight end but as a wide receiver at that point, is that correct logic?

In order to properly make defensive personnel adjustments, you count tight ends when they run onto the field. Now teams may make different moves based on things beyond the number of tight ends on the field. Many teams will cover the more talented guys, like Gronkowski or Jimmy Graham, with corners. Or just not count them when they're on the field as tight ends, even if they're lined up traditionally.

Did that make any sense?
 

squicken

Member
In order to properly make defensive personnel adjustments, you count tight ends when they run onto the field. Now teams may make different moves based on things beyond the number of tight ends on the field. Many teams will cover the more talented guys, like Gronkowski or Jimmy Graham, with corners. Or just not count them when they're on the field as tight ends, even if they're lined up traditionally.

Did that make any sense?

How does that affect safety and LB alignment? I know that SS and FS are disappearing as distinct positions, but what about base personnel and Sam and Will backers? IF Graham is on the field split wide, and the defense is in base, do they move the Sam to the closed side?
 

chuckddd

Fear of a GAF Planet
The Essential Smart Football is on sale for $.99 on amazon. Definitely recommended.
I paid full price for the paperback. Still worth it.
How does that affect safety and LB alignment? I know that SS and FS are disappearing as distinct positions, but what about base personnel and Sam and Will backers? IF Graham is on the field split wide, and the defense is in base, do they move the Sam to the closed side?
The easy answer is if he's split wide, treat him as a split end, not a tight end. However, there's too many variables to give a good answer. Is the defense playing man? Do they want to chuck Graham at the line? Do they want the Sam backer to rush against a certain tackle? Is Graham's side still the strong side? I'll go with "it depends".

I don't think it would take too much study to see what a certain defensive coordinator does in said situation, but I'd guess they'll all adjust differently.
 

chuckddd

Fear of a GAF Planet
I was thinking some more about that formation thing. Some defensive coordinators are just incompetent and get caught with their pants down in those situations. See Belichick splitting Vereen out versus the Texans.
 
Only thing I kind of remember, is that the only QB who didn't shit the bed entirely, was EJ Manual.

Adam Caplan was raving about EJ this week on Eagles Live. I really hope he is there for the Eagles to grab in the 2nd/3rd round. The rest of the QB class this year is so weak it isalmost laughable.
 

eznark

Banned
There was a tackle who played really welll from Central Michigan I think. Can't remember his name.

Pretty much the only thing that stuck out to me is how awful Dennard Robinson is.
 
There was a tackle who played really welll from Central Michigan I think. Can't remember his name.

Pretty much the only thing that stuck out to me is how awful Dennard Robinson is.

Really? I had read a few different reports about how many eyes he opened during practices. People saying he was even quicker then they expected. I was kind of hoping the Eagles use a late round pick on him.
 

Lonestar

I joined for Erin Brockovich discussion
Really? I had read a few different reports about how many eyes he opened during practices. People saying he was even quicker then they expected. I was kind of hoping the Eagles use a late round pick on him.

That's all he has though. Everyone can see, he's fast and agile as all get out. But can't throw (before or after this nerve injury), and has problems catching the ball, as well as fielding kicks. Leaving him as a RB only, and he's thin (in the 190 lb region, but 6'0" which is tall for being that thin), not a good combination for an NFL runningback.
 
I was thinking Chip could move him all over the field and let him run end arounds, and bubble screen type plays. Maybe you get lucky and he gets matched up with a LB and beats him deep. Guess it doesnt matter if he cant catch though.
 

squicken

Member
There was a small school safety, Cyprien, who people talked about. Fischer from Central Michigan. RB from UCLA who I can't remember. I really won't start looking at draft stuff until the awfulness is over on Sunday
 
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