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[cj_iwakura]

I'm actually being sincere here because I haven't played them:

But is Phase (an early iPhone game made by Harmonix, billed as a successor to Amplitude) and the Rock Band Blitz games significantly different than Amplitude?

The RB game was. A lot easier, no electronic music, etc. It was at least similar, but not quite the same. Amplitude had some note charts that would make IIDX players cringe.

 

[mclem]

First is probably the fact that they've tried spiritual successors, and neither did all that hot (Rock Band Unplugged, Rock Band Blitz). Second is probably that since Sony owns the IP, there might be some aspects of the gameplay that they have ownership of, and making another spiritual successor means that they have to change the in a way they don't want to do.

Perhaps, but I am curious what, given that the unsuccessful spiritual successors weren't that far removed from these. I'm looking at Rock Band Blitz right now - I've not played it, so I might be missing something - and the only difference from Amplitude that I can percieve is that each track seems to have two columns of notes rather than three.

 

[kinoki]

While I'd like this game to be made I can't help but feel that this is just a marketing stunt. This game would be hard to market, or rather hard to stand out. Getting it on Kickstarter for this sum is basicly free advertising. Spreading it in hashtags, official blog posts and retweets through the interwebs is just the kind of marketing a PS4-game needs at this time. But that's the cynic in me talking. It's got community good will and favour of a large publisher. No way it @yosp & crew not putting up money to help it get released if the community simply isn't there.

 

[Neuromancer]

Why would it be a bad thing that people discovered older and less successful content after the creators made something big?

It wouldn't be, but in the case of Frequency and Amplitude I don't think that happened on any kind of big scale anyway. I would imagine that the majority of fans of those games played them back in the day.

 

[Neuromancer]

I'm actually being sincere here because I haven't played them:

But is Phase (an early iPhone game made by Harmonix, billed as a successor to Amplitude) and the Rock Band Blitz games significantly different than Amplitude?

Regardless, what you're getting at is much more than what they've said in either the FAQ or the live stream they did. If they were that specific, I don't think anyone would scoff at their reason.

Phase was incredibly simplistic compared to Amplitude. There's just three tracks on the high way, with one note per highway; in Amplitude there were, I don't remember, 4 or 5 highways with three notes each. Also there were powerups, freestyle sections, the ability to remix songs yourself (I hope that's in this), multiplayer modes and more I'm probably forgetting in Amplitude. They're not really comparable.

 

[Aaron]

If the Amplitude IP contains some of the core gameplay mechanics of Amplitude, then doing a spiritual successor wouldn't necessarily be able to have those same mechanics.

Same core mechanics = Amplitude IP = Sony hardware

Smells like bullshit considering Dark Souls. Sure, maybe a new game would be close to Amplitude, but Sony would need the desire to contest it, and since they won't fund a new game, that seems extremely unlikely. Contesting it would gain them nothing, since no way is this game going to be a Minecraft level hit, and just invoke the ire of Harmonix and their fans. Besides, there are tons of clones of popular games out there. If you could contest based on core mechanics, Rock Band wouldn't exist.

 

[morningbus]

The RB game was. A lot easier, no electronic music, etc. It was at least similar, but not quite the same. Amplitude had some note charts that would make IIDX players cringe.

Phase was incredibly simplistic compared to Amplitude. There's just three tracks on the high way, with one note per highway; in Amplitude there were, I don't remember, 4 or 5 highways with three notes each. Also there were powerups, freestyle sections, the ability to remix songs yourself (I hope that's in this), multiplayer modes and more I'm probably forgetting in Amplitude. They're not really comparable.

I recognize that they're ostensibly different, but I'm more looking for elements of the design that Sony could actually own.

The fact that the other similar games they've made are basically Amplitude minus a thing Sony couldn't possibly own from a game design standpoint, I'm not convinced of the idea that Sony owns much more than the branding.

 

[mclem]

The fact that the other similar games they've made are basically Amplitude minus a thing Sony couldn't possibly own from a game design standpoint, I'm not convinced of the idea that Sony owns much more than the branding.

I agree, which makes me wonder if what we're really looking at here is Harmonix believing that being able to use the Amplitude name front-and-centre has more potency for getting funds than releasing on multiple platforms.

Given the tepid reception of Rock Band Blitz, I don't particularly blame them for coming to that conclusion.

 

[KiraXD]

Exactly. It's always been a gem to rhythm game aficionados. Ignore him. Hes the one who was screaming about Kickstarter Culture, and he didn't know how it worked to begin with. He's here to feed dissent.

Loved Freq/Amp LONG before GH/RB, when GH became super popular i always brought up Freq and Amp on boards and to my friends... they were always better than any guitar hero or rock band game imo.

 

[SwiftDeath]

I agree, which makes me wonder if what we're really looking at here is Harmonix believing that being able to use the Amplitude name front-and-centre has more potency for getting funds than releasing on multiple platforms.

That is the only other logical explanation I can come up with. I doubt Harmonix developers believe they'll get more support just being on PS consoles so it's likely if it's not a legal issue then they believe there's a better chance of funding it with the Amplitude name and PS only systems, then with a spiritual successor on more platforms

 

[Aaron]

I agree, which makes me wonder if what we're really liking at here is Harmonix believing that being able to use the Amplitude name front-and-centre has more potency for getting funds than releasing on multiple platforms.

Given the tepid reception of Rock Band Blitz, I don't particularly blame them for coming to that conclusion.

Blitz wasn't a good game though. The gameplay felt disjointed, and didn't have the flow of Amplitude and Frequency.

 

[Nafai1123]

Smells like bullshit considering Dark Souls. Sure, maybe a new game would be close to Amplitude, but Sony would need the desire to contest it, and since they won't fund a new game, that seems extremely unlikely. Contesting it would gain them nothing, since no way is this game going to be a Minecraft level hit, and just invoke the ire of Harmonix and their fans. Besides, there are tons of clones of popular games out there. If you could contest based on core mechanics, Rock Band wouldn't exist.

Sure, it's all just speculation unless Harmonix is more open about it. I don't see the logical reason for NOT doing a spiritual successor, considering they could release on more platforms (mainly PC) and the IP is from ages ago. I have to imagine they decided it was worth getting the IP for SOME reason, otherwise they could've just done a Amplitude clone and called it something else. I'm pretty sure most/all the fans would've been fine with a spiritual successor just as much as a new game called Amplitude (I know I would've backed it regardless).

 

[Canis lupus]

Almost 150k

 

[FaintDeftone]

Backed. I'll support anything Harmonix works on that isn't a dance game.

 

[Vire]

Man.. not looking good so far. :/

 

[FyreWulff]

Blitz has a more generous timing window but I wouldn't say it's easier. I've never been able to convince a single friend to actually play the game because they feel it's overly complicated to get into. The two lane gameplay was more related to the fact that you wouldn't want to play beatmatch with the 360 triggers. And with Synchrony, you're essentially playing 3-button anyway. I'm not surprised that the people on my friends list with high Blitz scores are the same people that play Expert well in Rock Band.

I'd say Blitz not taking off like wildfire was partly due to that accessibility problem. Once you figure out these games, they're fun as hell. But man, they're quite a wall to climb.

 

[Bsigg12]

Man.. not looking good so far. :/

It'll get a boost today from Giantbomb users after they talk about it on the bombcast today. They'll be cutting it really close though once we get into the last 4 days.

 

[Messofanego]

Technicallly, that's just simple shapes & colours and somewhat stiff animations. The game itself looks interesting, but it's not rocket science how they could make that for so little money.

hahahahaha was expecting a more detailed answer.

Feel like this should be a meme to any hyped game: "Technicallly, that's just simple shapes & colours".

 

[SwiftDeath]

hahahahaha was expecting a more detailed answer.

Feel like this should be a meme to any hyped game: "Technicallly, that's just simple shapes & colours".

Dude all mexican food is tortillas, cheese, and meat. Why would I go to a sit-down Mexican restaurant when I can make it myself for cheaper?

 

[BuzzJive]

They've created an engine, but that doesn't mean they now need zero work on the engine for Amplitude HD. They need to optimize it for this particular game and to make the game work on both PS3 & PS4, both with wildly different hardware. There's not some magic button that will make it all happen free and in a day.


The backgrounds in Amplitude PS2 aren't all that simple (designing and then making them a reality probably isn't all that fast a process), not to even mention they would have to make them in HD quality for Amplitude HD, which certainly doesn't make it an easier process. The music itself requires a lot of work as well. They need to compose all the new music, then they need to arrange & record it, perhaps remix them to make them a better fit for and then master them. That's just step 1 for any given song, then they need to actually take those finished songs and create the playable note-patterns for each instrument and finehone them to the kind of perfection they are known of.

These are professional game developers who all want to have, what, $40-50k salary a year if Harmonix is to keep them as their employees, so their monthly salary is 3000-4000$ per month. Amplitude's dev team wasn't huge, IIRC it might've been somewhere around 30 people, give or take a few. Developing an HD game AND a multiplatform game probably needs more than that, so they probably want to have a bigger team. Now, they would develop this game for around 9-10 months and let's assume that the ~30 people who did Amplitude PS2 isn't quite enough to deliver this game in that time, so they'd probably need to have a team of maybe 40 people. Let's say they have to pay around ~3500 for 40 people for 9-10 months. Thats 9x 40 x 3500$ = 1,260,000$ just for salaries or 10 x 40 x 3500 = 1,400,000$. That's not a little amount of money.

The credits for the original Amplitude list 44 total Harmonix people, with really only 28 being in actual game production. 3 of them were interns too, but they obviously produced work.

http://www.mobygames.com/game/ps2/amplitude/credits

Audio Interns were the last thing I counted - though testing and other stuff down there is still important - but not full time. I also don't believe that some of the included roles (Executive Producer) were not full time on the project either, so it will somewhat even out.

For broad grouping purposes:

Producers/Project Managers: 4
Programmers: 8
Artists: 9
Audio: 7

Total: 28

Let's assume an average current healthy pay rate of 80k per year for 9 months ~ $1.68 million. That's essentially what they're implying this game will take (the kickstarter goal plus their own funding).

That's simply too much for an HD remake of a niche game. That is why myself and others in here are balking at this. They need to be more realistic in their approach. There needs to be a minimum version of this game and an ideal version of this game - ideal being the version that comes via excess funding and stretch goals. I've offered up some suggestions to get to that minimum earlier, but I'll repaste here:

"Drop the PS3 or move it to a stretch goal (behind a Vita version). Assemble the team using a nice mix of senior and junior guys. Low ball your cost estimates because you know there's internal money and Sony money that will help get this through to the end. Put the higher cost licensing tracks in some DLC to pass that price along. And please remove all the "avatar" related stuff (I had completely forgotten about that until watching the video) - not necessary. Just do what you can to lower initial costs."

I'll offer up some more specific suggestions. Cut the producers/project managers in half (from 4 to 2) and lower the average pay from 80k to 60k via juniors and interns again. That right there saves you a half a million dollars as we're down to ~$1.17 million. Include 15 new tracks instead of 26 - with promised DLC to boost it well beyond the original 26. Remove the ancillary stuff that very few fans consider necessary - such as the avatar and cut scene stuff. Those cuts could remove a few more team members, and we're sitting closer to a $1m cost (which interestingly is what they said they'd be willing to invest). At that cost, they could probably break even on roughly 70k downloads at $20.

I'm okay with gauging interest and softening the blow of that up front cost. A $500k kickstarter seems more achievable. Worst case? We end up with a more minimal HD version of this game. That doesn't negate the ability for them to get their ideal version of this game if there's enough interest to make it happen.

Unfortunately, due to targeting their ideal budget instead of a minimum budget, I don't see it happening. They're gonna need another 20k backers at this rate. That's over 1k a day. While 4.5k backers in the first day sounds promising, kickstarter trends do not look favorable right now.


Look - I want the ideal version too, but I'd gladly settle for the minimal version. I believe they aren't effectively using kickstarter to give me that option.

 

[matty2Dfraud]

Refuse to back something from a studio that can fund it themselves. This kickstarter shit is getting ridiculous.

 

[VanWinkle]

Hmm I was very confident about this project's funding yesterday, but I'm a little more worried at the [relatively] slow progress going on now.

 

[morningbus]

Refuse to back something from a studio that can fund it themselves. This kickstarter shit is getting ridiculous.

I know, it is awful how Kickstarter's jack-booted thugs break into our houses and take our money in exchange for things we're interested in.

 

[Neuromancer]

Refuse to back something from a studio that can fund it themselves. This kickstarter shit is getting ridiculous.

If there's a game I want and the options are Kickstarter or it never gets made, I'll take the Kickstarter every time.

 

[matty2Dfraud]

I know, it is awful how Kickstarter's jack-booted thugs break into our houses and take our money in exchange for things we're interested in.

lol what?

 

[morningbus]

lol what?

Wait, Kickstarter's brownshirts don't regularly break into your home and take your money?!

That gang is gonna get a stern talking-to next time they kick down my door.

 

[hodayathink]

The credits for the original Amplitude list 44 total Harmonix people, with really only 28 being in actual game production. 3 of them were interns too, but they obviously produced work.

http://www.mobygames.com/game/ps2/amplitude/credits

Audio Interns were the last thing I counted - though testing and other stuff down there is still important - but not full time. I also don't believe that some of the included roles (Executive Producer) were not full time on the project either, so it will somewhat even out.

For broad grouping purposes:

Producers/Project Managers: 4
Programmers: 8
Artists: 9
Audio: 7

Total: 28

Let's assume an average current healthy pay rate of 80k per year for 9 months ~ $1.68 million. That's essentially what they're implying this game will take (the kickstarter goal plus their own funding).

That's simply too much for an HD remake of a niche game. That is why myself and others in here are balking at this. They need to be more realistic in their approach. There needs to be a minimum version of this game and an ideal version of this game - ideal being the version that comes via excess funding and stretch goals. I've offered up some suggestions to get to that minimum earlier, but I'll repaste here:

"Drop the PS3 or move it to a stretch goal (behind a Vita version). Assemble the team using a nice mix of senior and junior guys. Low ball your cost estimates because you know there's internal money and Sony money that will help get this through to the end. Put the higher cost licensing tracks in some DLC to pass that price along. And please remove all the "avatar" related stuff (I had completely forgotten about that until watching the video) - not necessary. Just do what you can to lower initial costs."

I'll offer up some more specific suggestions. Cut the producers/project managers in half (from 4 to 2) and lower the average pay from 80k to 60k via juniors and interns again. That right there saves you a half a million dollars as we're down to ~$1.17 million. Include 15 new tracks instead of 26 - with promised DLC to boost it well beyond the original 26. Remove the ancillary stuff that very few fans consider necessary - such as the avatar and cut scene stuff. Those cuts could remove a few more team members, and we're sitting closer to a $1m cost (which interestingly is what they said they'd be willing to invest). At that cost, they could probably break even on roughly 70k downloads at $20.

I'm okay with gauging interest and softening the blow of that up front cost. A $500k kickstarter seems more achievable. Worst case? We end up with a more minimal HD version of this game. That doesn't negate the ability for them to get their ideal version of this game if there's enough interest to make it happen.

Unfortunately, due to targeting their ideal budget instead of a minimum budget, I don't see it happening. They're gonna need another 20k backers at this rate. That's over 1k a day. While 4.5k backers in the first day sounds promising, kickstarter trends do not look favorable right now.


Look - I want the ideal version too, but I'd gladly settle for the minimal version. I believe they aren't effectively using kickstarter to give me that option.

They've said at this point that there is no Sony money. If anything, they might be able to get something out of the Pub Fund (which I doubt would be much larger than say $150k), but since neither Sony published game did well sales-wise, Sony's not putting any large amount of money into it, and for good reason. And even if they made your "cost-cut"/"minimal version" game, I honestly don't think they'd get to the 70k downloads they need to break even on it, especially if they cut out the PS3 version. If I had to ballpark from remembering what I read in the Towerfall sales thread, a top PSN download for PS4 looks like it gets somewhere between 20-40k in its first month, and probably drops off pretty quickly after that. And as much I like Amplitude, it's still a niche game, so I don't think it's going to top the PSN charts.

 

[mclem]

Blitz wasn't a good game though. The gameplay felt disjointed, and didn't have the flow of Amplitude and Frequency.

Well, yes, but that didn't come part-and-parcel with having not having Amplitude's branding.

 

[Canis lupus]

Refuse to back something from a studio that can fund it themselves. This kickstarter shit is getting ridiculous.

I hope and wish more studios use kickstarter to fund and revive niche games like these that is otherwise too risky to greenlight straight away. If you like a game and want it to happen, what does it matter to you if you pay up front or after it launches?

 

[Neuromancer]

I hope they have a steady stream of announcements and updates planned. Today's numbers are not great.



Project Morpheus support would be a no brainer.

 

[mreddie]

I'm sure they knew it was bound to plateau at some point.

 

[Lord Error]

it passed 150K. That prediction site says the chance of success is 1% now :\

 

[KORNdoggy]

I hope they have a steady stream of announcements and updates planned. Today's numbers are not great.



Project Morpheus support would be a no brainer.

Arn't todays numbers only a couple of hours worth though? When was the kickstarter started?

 

[Loudninja]

@ALPHAMAGNUS @AkrobatikMC Don't worry! We haven't called anyone yet. It's still super early in the process.

https://twitter.com/Harmonix/status/463755755699859456

 

[Antilurker77]

That's simply too much for an HD remake of a niche game.

Are you seriously claiming that an HD game costs less than an SD game? I don't even...

 

[Neuromancer]

Arn't todays numbers only a couple of hours worth though? When was the kickstarter started?

True, I suppose it started around noon. That's when the thread was made.

 

[Neuromancer]

Nice write up about Amplitude on Destructoid:

Back in 2003, I was introduced to what would become one of my favorite games of all time -- Amplitude for the PlayStation 2. Although I had dabbled in the prequel (Frequency), it wasn't until Amplitude dropped that Harmonix really became a household name for me.

It changed my perspective on music quite a bit, and introduced me to a host of new artists, as well as new songs by artists I was already familiar with. And when you think about it, that's kind of Harmonix's mission statement.

Naturally, I'm very hopeful for the new Kickstarter.

Amplitude didn't just influence my musical tastes, it also scratched that hardcore rhythm game itch that I get from time to time. On higher difficulties, the game was tough -- so tough that I'd sit there for hours mastering one song. Before the era of plastic instruments, sitting there hitting buttons like a DJ was more than enough for me. To top things off, it had a remix mode, as well as local and online multiplayer -- in 2003!

I hope that the newly minted Kickstarter can embody the central tenets of what made Amplitude so great, and with all of the tricks Harmonix has picked up over the years, I'm very confident. Although Rock Band Blitz was a noble effort to recapture the magic with full DLC integration in tow, my expectations are a lot higher when you stamp the Amplitude name to a project -- because for me, that name still carries a lot of respect.

Read more at http://www.destructoid.com/amplitud...as-ever-done-274282.phtml#2x2JJGvC6Aq8uGOQ.99

 

[FantasticMrFoxdie]

It's funny how this game seems to be getting traction based off the success of Rock Band. IIRC, Amp & Freq really reviewed poorly when they were released. Then the GH/RB craze hit, and all of a sudden Amp & Freq are hidden gems. I just laugh when I see we're 14 pages into hype for a remake of a game that no one cared about when it was released.

Wow. I know some have already torn this apart but I felt the need to put my input. They were always hidden gems. Received well critically, sold poorly, and already had a cult following. I don't own any of the GH/RB games, but I still have both my copies of freq&amp. I got Amp day one after stumbling onto Freq in a bargain bin one day. Never caught the appeal of the GH/RB movement and never felt the need to buy it since everyone and their mothers had it.

If you haven't noticed by now thats one of the cool things of gaf. People have their beloved game no matter how it may have been received critically or how it sold. And if anything, I hope the GH/RB fans do jump on board and support this. Afterall this series was essentially the building block to that entire movement.

 

[Neuromancer]

Fuck it I'm in for $40. I was thinking about it today and I am pretty sure I got my original copy of Amplitude used from GameStop back in the day, so I feel like I owe them a little extra.

 

[FerranMG]

First project I've ever backed.
Hope it makes it.

 

[MMaRsu]

Uhm? Not to be an ass but what did they make off Rockband Dlc? Uuh why do they need a kickstarter? Who is the publisher?

 

[Neuromancer]

Uhm? Not to be an ass but what did they make off Rockband Dlc?

Most of the money they made from Guitar Hero/Rock Band/Dance Central etc went to the publisher.

Uuh why do they need a kickstarter?

Games cost money to make. Also Harmonix is putting in a million themselves I believe.

Who is the publisher?

I'm assuming it's either self published, or Sony.

 

[Alastor3]

is it me or they didn't start with 30 days ? Harmonix just announced it yesterday on their facebook

 

[Neuromancer]

is it me or they didn't start with 30 days ? Harmonix just announced it yesterday on their facebook

Correct, only 18 for various reasons. Given the slow middle period of most Kickstarters I don't expect that to make or break anything.

 

[Mik3F]

is it me or they didn't start with 30 days ? Harmonix just announced it yesterday on their facebook

They said 18 days was down to the date the decision had to be made by due to having to staff other projects iirc

Not sure that this is going to reach the goal, will be keeping my eye on it before deciding if I want in or not

 

[BuzzJive]

Are you seriously claiming that an HD game costs less than an SD game? I don't even...

That's not what I said at all. What I said was that $1.68 million is too much to spend to remake a niche game and that they need to cut costs as best they can.

At the same time, "HD game" doesn't inherently mean it's a far more expensive game. There's a whole lot of factors involved. In the case of Amplitude, there's definitely some art that needs to be built for higher resolutions, but that's not where a significant amount of the costs are going here. If so, I think they've greatly misunderstood why people keep asking them to make another Amplitude game.

 

[blackflag]

I loved Amplitude but I'd never kickstart anything.

 

[Accoun]

is it me or they didn't start with 30 days ? Harmonix just announced it yesterday on their facebook

Its not, for whatever reason that poster missed the most important part. A lot of artists and other asset creators are "rolling over" ( I assume this means leaving or going toother projects) because Fantasia is wrapping up. They are doing this around some sort of deadline in the next few weeks, unless they are given additional work. They wanted to announce the kickstarter earlier, but some paperwork wasnt officially signed yet (basically Sony giving their legal blessing without funding) so they couldnt.

And I think they've said that they won't do this project if the Kickstarter fails.

 

[Acquiescence]

The pledges are drying up to the point that this project will grind to a halt in a couple of days time. It'll receive a futile boost in its final hours, but otherwise this Kickstarter ain't happening folks.

 

[FantasticMrFoxdie]

The pledges are drying up to the point that this project will grind to a halt in a couple of days time. It'll receive a futile boost in its final hours, but otherwise this Kickstarter ain't happening folks.

Yeah I figured its going to stagnate in these next couple of days. What they really need is famous music artist support.