Lost of experience points and actual de-leveling!
Are MMOs generally easy / unfailable?
- Thread starter daninthemix
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Lost of experience points and actual de-leveling!
I would pay serious money (not) to be able to see you play WoW thinking like mods will do stuff for you. Go to some heroic raids with that, please. Or just close your eyes. We will watch your dps
Yes I did write it with a straight face. GW2 is an incredibly easy MMO. Like I said, there is very little to no difficult content in it, singling out Arah just emphasizes that it has some 'difficult' content (which, like other dungeons, takes time to get used to, albeit much more, but it becomes easily puggable). People don't run Aetherpath because its not worth the amount of time it takes. Its tedious and by no means hard. But at the end of the day, it isnt trying to cater for the hardcore, the people that like a challange. Its a casual game for casual people predominantly, theres absolutely nothing wrong with that.
GW2's idea of challenging content is to give bosses massive health pools, is to give trash massive health pools and to nerf the zerk meta (which means you do less damage and clear a dungeon in more time). Heck even season 2 achievements were supposed to be 'difficult', they were far from that. If you think Arah is more difficult compared to anything WoW has to offer then we can only agree to disagree. Heck I dont even play wow and log on to GW2 regularly just to dungeon tour because its easy, fast gold.
That has nothing at all to do with the sort of challenge the OP was talking about.
You CANNOT completely neglect your gear and still expect to complete the content in any MMORPG, modern or old. The stats are simply too important.
It always felt like BSTs were playing a different game than everyone else.
yeah the pre-wow generation of MMOs had a lot less hand holding and automatic progression. Even Vanilla WoW didn't have that much. Sure you could solo from 1-60 but other then that you had to do things on your own.
Everquest was the best. Just about every zone was fun and dangerous to explore like you said. Take a lower level zone like East Commonlands. most of the players/groups there were in the 5 to 12 range, maybe even a little higher but there were Griffins that would roam the zone and absolutely squash people.
silvermember
Banned
I would pay serious money (not) to be able to see you play WoW thinking like mods will do stuff for you. Go to some heroic raids with that, please. Or just close your eyes. We will watch your dps
I am just telling you what a blind guy did, go read about it. The story of Ben Shaw.
Dragoon En Regalia
Member
I still remember when my sister trekked to Jeuno , crossing Zulkheim across Derfland after training in Valkurm and starting out in Bastok. She went with a mentor, an Elvaan higher-leveled but friendly and willing to help fresh blood; don't know which class she first used, but she became a Paladin and doubled as a Monk later. Still the trip was dangerous because of the random mooks lying around or a lonesome Marlboro waiting to engage anyone. Rather fun to watch back then. FFXI always seemed like a challenging MMO in its day, and I had to play carefully even in an experienced party leveling at Valkurm.
flyinpiranha
Member
I think people good at playing MMOs are good at playing MMOs. We understand 'aggro' or that you can't just 'run through that field' or level requirements for certain areas. My fiance' is playing GW2 and it's her first, it's kind of funny the "basics" I had to explain. It's fairly easy if you stick to a crowd but it's VERY easy to die if you're not paying attention.
That goes for most of them outside of the leveling area though. I've played quite a few and it's very easy to die if you don't understand the basic concepts. I think most MMOs are played by people who understand the genre and rarely do you see newcomers to the genre outside of the WoW phenomenon so saying it's "easy" is a bit misleading. .
That goes for most of them outside of the leveling area though. I've played quite a few and it's very easy to die if you don't understand the basic concepts. I think most MMOs are played by people who understand the genre and rarely do you see newcomers to the genre outside of the WoW phenomenon so saying it's "easy" is a bit misleading. .
silvermember
Banned
I am not saying guild wars 2 is hard because the content up to 80 wasn't designed to be hard. What I am saying is that WOW is not harder, I mean if a blind guy can beat the content that says a lot. The content that is designed to be hard is pretty difficult.
Aetherblade is hard it is just that a lot of players don't want challenge they just want loot. they want just enough challenge to beat the feel like they did something but all they really want is loot. But like I said, if a blind guy can beat WOW's content then clearly it isn't hard.
in any case, the problem with gw2 is that guild wars 2 isn't a dungeon focused game and so it hasn't added new dungeons. Which was the original point of my reply to you. After spending 2 years doing the same dungeons of course it is going to be easy. The first few months of guild wars 2, a lot of players were whining how difficult it was and how they should nerf it. But WOW certainly isn't hard IF a blind person can do the raids.
OminoMichelin
Member
AFAIK, most high level content in MMOS and the like require a lot of research and coordination.
Speaking by personal experience, most end game dungeons in Dofus are made so that one team mate screwing it up it's enough to kill the entire party.
An example:
...it was a fun dungeon. There are more extreme examples in this game, but at least they don't take too long if you know what you're doing.
Speaking by personal experience, most end game dungeons in Dofus are made so that one team mate screwing it up it's enough to kill the entire party.
An example:
In this dungeon, every character leaves a lethal glyph on the square he started the turn on, meaning that ending your turn on said glyphs kills you instantly. The glyphs relative to your char disappear on death, so that's a plus. However, there are two monsters in that group that have the ability to teleport every character on their starting spot when hit the wrong way, which means that everyone in your group will die except the one who attacked the monsters.
...it was a fun dungeon. There are more extreme examples in this game, but at least they don't take too long if you know what you're doing.
The achievements of disabled gamers do not diminish the difficulty. There are dedicated players playing Street Fighter IV with feet only, or with one hand only, and they would mop the floor with me most likely, and I did put many hours into that game. Does not mean SFIV is not deep.
See? This: "But WOW certainly isn't hard IF a blind person can do the raids. " is wrong on many levels.
UnrealEck
Member
Levelling is easy.
Questing is easy though there's the odd questline (a series of quests under one) that can be more challenging or require harder boss kills.
Challenge comes mostly from raids and there is challenge there for everyone, even those who have played for years need to try many bosses for hours and hours just to kill it. And don't let it fool you that there's some guilds killing a boss within a day of release. Those are usually spending hours on it and are typically among the most experienced and dedicated players.
Questing is easy though there's the odd questline (a series of quests under one) that can be more challenging or require harder boss kills.
Challenge comes mostly from raids and there is challenge there for everyone, even those who have played for years need to try many bosses for hours and hours just to kill it. And don't let it fool you that there's some guilds killing a boss within a day of release. Those are usually spending hours on it and are typically among the most experienced and dedicated players.
... you're talking non-raiding PvE, right? I mean, stats definitely matter for things like PvP (like MUDs), but they certainly aren't the only factor.
Large scale raids usually derive their challenge from the difficulty and tediousness of organizing a large amount of players to do what they're supposed to do at the right times. The formula gets tiring for me pretty quick.
PvP is usually where the real interesting challenge is since you're competing against thinking human opponents.
PvP is usually where the real interesting challenge is since you're competing against thinking human opponents.
Yes. That's what the OP was discussing concerning progression in these games.
Endgame is another matter, but generally speaking endgame in most MMORPGs consists of 'simon says'-style encounters where you generally play by a specific script and deviating from the script gets you killed. Not really the same thing as a Souls boss encounter.
ShinMaruku
Member
Been away from MMOs too long to said easy or unfailable. Korean MMOs however, they can wreck you if you go too far.
A massive problem I have with MMO's today is the fact that you usually need to play 50-100 hours to get to anything that resembles a challenge. To me without a challenge, the gameplay is just not that compelling.
Everquest was the only game where I felt it was challenging at every level. You couldn't just faceroll your way to max level, you had to really think before most encounters with creatures around the same level.
Everquest was the only game where I felt it was challenging at every level. You couldn't just faceroll your way to max level, you had to really think before most encounters with creatures around the same level.
Agree with you then, for sure.
I knew that was the OP's point but the phrasing just made me second guess whether or not you were going beyond that context.
Yup.
Take Dungeon Fighter Online (or D&F) for example; the first two areas are pretty piss-easy and you have to be pretty bad to be dying in the dungeons there.
After that, it starts ramping up the difficulty after each subsequent area you go into.
(Funny enough, the midgame stuff was pretty damn hard at some point or another before it got nerfed.)
By the endgame, the special Ancient Dungeons and Otherworld stuff are full of mechanics or deathtraps that can easily insta-kill you.
(One of the early Otherworld bosses had a gimmick like that; he'd summon little bots that if they exploded on you, they'd hit for max damage and insta-gib anyone in the explosion area.)
Only up until a point.
I haven't played too many MMOs in depth other than FF XIV, so I will talk about that.
For the most part, leveling up and questing in the game is pretty easy and low risk. But the game also requires you to run through various dungeons and fight major bosses called Primals as part of the story. If you are new to MMORPGs and their mechanics, later dungeon boss fights and story-mode Primal battles are certainly capable of completely wrecking you. Once you get the hang of fighting them, they become easy, but it is definitely a learning process. I wiped several times when I first fought Ifrit, and he is a joke compared to the later bosses in the game. Nowadays, I can practically do that fight with my eyes closed, but that is because I am used to fighting much stronger opponents.
Once you clear the main story and hit the end-game though, the kid gloves come off for the most part. While there is a lot f farmable content that is designed for most people to run regularly, there is also a lot of content that is designed to seriously challenge people. Back before players really got used to the fights and got better gear from new patches, fights such as the Hard Mode Primals (especially Titan) could stonewall players from completeing certain quests for weeks or months, simply due to the demanding difficulty of the fights.
Once you hit the high-end content in MMOs, I can honestly say I am hard-pressed to think of a harder non-competative genre. And I say this as someone who has played a lot of Megaman games and Demon Souls.
MMOs tend to be open world. So if you only go to easy areas it will feel easy, and if you go to hard areas it will be hard. They're unfailable if you choose not to go to a place where you may fail. There are no "levels" or "boss gates" that will force you to face something you may feel unprepared for.
Netherscourge
Banned
Any MMO that has steady progression will eventually be beatable just based on the fact that you will out-level or out-gear the content.
Simple as that.
Simple as that.
I remember players complaining Guild Wars 2 was too hard at launch because you had to actually pickup on enemy tells and dodge accordingly. MMOs for the most part are easy and their players expect them to be easy as result. Just stand there and get hit until someone falls.
SixMachine
Member
It gets easier if you come back at a higher level and delevel yourself instead of trying it straight out of the gate. I know that was the case with me and other people because there are a lot of gimmicks to work around in the dungeons, things like having to do something special to remove a dot, or for example there is an easier way to open the gate when you need to keep someone alive. When you run with a lot of pugs these days people know how to skip these parts or know some trick to make it really easy. Also, unlike the early days, a lot of groups want you to stack. I remember before people would think about dodging and running around and what not, but the best thing is to stack now, because they basically buffs everyone, easy heals, easy to revive, unless there is some gimmick that makes you guys split up. But of course, if there is nothing forcing you to split off, like having to lure a certain mob to the boss or dodge a special attack, the group dps is more higher when stacked.
From my experience with WoW it lets you choose your own difficulty. You can do all the quests and be over-leveled and over-geared or you can skip a lot of them and take on harder mobs. Most chose the first because it's generally a faster way to level up, and most people want to reach the end game content as fast as possible.
Same with the end game content. you can do 5 man normals, 5 man heroics, LFR , normal raids , heroic raids. You get to choose the difficulty level.
I think that people are interpreting the option of playing it in "easy mode" as the game being easy overall, while it is actually the player's choice just like a difficulty setting in any other game.
As to being unfailiable - almost all games are. you always respawn, just like in the MMOs.
Same with the end game content. you can do 5 man normals, 5 man heroics, LFR , normal raids , heroic raids. You get to choose the difficulty level.
I think that people are interpreting the option of playing it in "easy mode" as the game being easy overall, while it is actually the player's choice just like a difficulty setting in any other game.
As to being unfailiable - almost all games are. you always respawn, just like in the MMOs.
Fragamemnon
Member
http://www.wowironman.com/rules
There's a very minor contingent of WoW players that play the game in a specifically restrained way in order to induce constant challenge into the game. I'm sure similar rules could be applied to any MMO.
That being said, WoW has had its share of tough stuff over the years, which get nerfed when newer, tougher stuff is added.
There's a very minor contingent of WoW players that play the game in a specifically restrained way in order to induce constant challenge into the game. I'm sure similar rules could be applied to any MMO.
That being said, WoW has had its share of tough stuff over the years, which get nerfed when newer, tougher stuff is added.
That wasn't very difficult, it was just immensely time-consuming and often extremely boring (for the record, I loved DAoC. But leveling was a huge grindfest). Everyone could reach 50 if they put enough time in it.
That way, yes all MMOs are pretty easy as in, everybody can reach the level cap. I found WoW classic to have a comfortable level of difficulty. Combat difficulty was hard enough not to be boring, but easy enough not to be frustrating. And of course you had the occasional quest where you didn't stand much of a chance without friends or an entire group to support you.
Unfortunately, during the course of its development, WoW has moved from "moderately difficult" to "a blind, one-handed monkey can reach the level cap within a few days without dying even once".
And I mostly blame the community, who, for a reason I still can't fully comprehend, complained about slow progress continuosly because they found running the same 5 dungeons and doing the same few dailies every day ("endgame") less repetitive than questing in the massively huge, spacious world filled with probably north of a thousand quests, so people demanded to reach endgame as fast as possible.
Now, the leveling-part of the game has been simplified to boredom, and the only slight challenge is to be had in endgame. End even there often just for those who can afford to invest several hours each day into the game to even progress to the difficult content.
Brolic Gaoler
formerly Alienshogun
Original Everquest was brutal.
Moon_frogger
Member
watched 2 roomates play ffxi for years, they always tried to get me into it but it looked so boring to me. Now playing ffxiv and hearing about xi from others it sounds like the most amazing thing in the world. MMO communities don't feel like communities anymore. GAF on ultros is pretty great though.
Perfect Cha0s
Member
The level-up experience of most MMOs is usually like this, yes. Most teams put the bulk of their challenging content at level cap, and it's usually party/raid-oriented content for small-to-large parties.
Yes, MMOs are usually easy if you have average gaming skill, good at theorycraft and have decent Math skill.
I have been in top raiding guilds for almost every MMOs, but man, some people are so bad you will question if these people are playing bad on purpose or literally just bad.
I have been in top raiding guilds for almost every MMOs, but man, some people are so bad you will question if these people are playing bad on purpose or literally just bad.
ChosenPredator
Banned
ultima online was the best the more you used somethign the better you got so it was skilled based, you swing a sword tons of times you progressively get better, you butcher meat you progressively get better..so it never felt like you were grinding you were enjoying the game and barely ever thinking of leveling it was beautiful...nothing like it and i don't think there ever will be anymore.
Haha yep. Could you imagine the current generation of MMO players if you lost XP and possibly your gear on a death? Everybody would ragequit the first time it happened.
SRTtoZ
Member
EVE Online would like a word with you.
Well thats just a really bad comparison. MMOs generally arent even really designed to be super challenging until the end game intentionally. The leveling process is just there to teach you the ins and outs of what usually tends to be dozens of skills and abilities slowly as you level so that you have a handle on it by the time you hit the level cap.
Its at the level cap that the actual game begins. Its a completely different form of game design than Dark Souls. It would be like comparing an MMO's end game design to the 'End game' of a side scrolling platformer.
There are going to be exceptions, sure, but there probably won't be many Dark Souls-esque MMO's... Hell theres not many Dark Souls-esque games period.
Coffee Dog
Banned
MMO's are incredibly easy, because the endgame has to be done by 25 or however many people at once and if someone fucks up everybody loses.
The mechanics need to be simple or else you would constantly be held back by your friends. Anything more technical than "stay out of the fire" and "rotating debuff" would result in nobody ever being able to clear them in large groups.
The mechanics need to be simple or else you would constantly be held back by your friends. Anything more technical than "stay out of the fire" and "rotating debuff" would result in nobody ever being able to clear them in large groups.
Silvawuff
Member
I'm glad to see FFXI getting a mention in this topic. Early XI was cruel, and it was a good kind of cruel. Everything in that game wants to kill you, even the environment. After the starting area it's survival of the fittest all the way. It's up to you to figure everything out, usually from personal experience, other players, or doing your homework.
It's a brilliant game by design. Every area serves a connected purpose for hundreds of different quests; it's a detailed, whole world, unlike any I've ever seen or played in. I know it's aged since the time 75 was the level cap and things're different all around, but it never gave you anything -- you had to earn it, and even after you earned it, there's no guarantee you'd get to hold on to it. You could even delevel from dying too much. Characters dying naked from their gear being too high level for them was commonplace, especially in fun raiding areas like Dynamis.
It's a brilliant game by design. Every area serves a connected purpose for hundreds of different quests; it's a detailed, whole world, unlike any I've ever seen or played in. I know it's aged since the time 75 was the level cap and things're different all around, but it never gave you anything -- you had to earn it, and even after you earned it, there's no guarantee you'd get to hold on to it. You could even delevel from dying too much. Characters dying naked from their gear being too high level for them was commonplace, especially in fun raiding areas like Dynamis.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Most MMOs now are incredibly binary in terms of their difficulty. Leveling being falling-off-a-log easy, simple, fast, (and damningly) expectedly so, with a thin layer of the endgame being incredibly tough in a way that only the currently highly-skilled will seek out and flourish in. Nothing incintivizes the player to attempt them (the spike in effort and risk and the meager increase in rewards), and more damningly, nothing teaches the player to better themselves; there are no venues for the mental/emotional/physical learning to take place, just VWOOOM: a wall.
The thinking was (only) that if a player encountered something that stumped them, they'd quit playing on the spot. It didn't quite work as planned...
Heh. "You mean I not only gotta stay out of the fire, but I can't just dart willy-nilly at random from the fire or I won't get healed reliably? THIS IS BULLSHIT!"
The thinking was (only) that if a player encountered something that stumped them, they'd quit playing on the spot. It didn't quite work as planned...
Heh. "You mean I not only gotta stay out of the fire, but I can't just dart willy-nilly at random from the fire or I won't get healed reliably? THIS IS BULLSHIT!"
The last MMO I played that presented any sort of challenge while leveling was FF11. I have fond memories of my Chocobo quest at lvl 20. That was the last time I was actually scared in an MMO. Before that, Everquest, which as others have noted was comparable to Dark Souls in a way. Most MMO's I've played since then have been generally all the same - little to no challenge until you get to the end game.