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AusPoliGAF |OT| Boats? What Boats?

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A More Normal Bird

Unconfirmed Member
News Ltd and the ATO had a dispute regarding deductions, so they took it to Court and the Court decided that News Ltd was right...This doesn't really seem to be such a breaking story at all. I mean, I'd totally understand why no one really cared. Yes the amounts are large but eh, I thought someone was indicating some sort of foul play. This just seems like the correct application of the law and an instance of everything working properly. It's just that some might view the law to be badly constructed. People can jump up and down and say the law is bullshit and it should be changed, which is a completely valid stance, but to say that the government shouldn't have handed over the money that News Ltd was entitled to under the law would be an absurd argument.

A "$2 billion deduction from a series of paper shuffles between subsidiaries" sounds a lot like a loophole to me, but you're right that's not the main issue here. This is just another example of the Government deliberately misrepresenting fiscal matters to the public in order to cover for their ideology, with the Murdoch press happily complying without ever revealing their part in it. The massive corporate tax break is just the cherry on the revolting cake.

Its not news but the cognitive dissonance from News Limited and the Liberals is amusing.

Breaking News: Our Federal Government believes we have an oversupply of renewable energy and it is concerned about its impact on electricity prices.
The study of the RET will be headed by former Reserve Bank board member Dick Warburton and will report back to the Government by the middle of the year.

It will feed into the Energy White Paper process, and a senior Liberal has told the ABC it will provide Government "cover" for "let's kill the RET".

What could have prompted this mystery leaker to take such a bullish turn?
 

Dryk

Member
This just seems like the correct application of the law and an instance of everything working properly. It's just that some might view the law to be badly constructed.
Filing some paper-work and pulling $2 billion out of thin air, then using that for political gain is a pretty fucked up magic trick
 

Arksy

Member
The question as to whether they should be allowed to do it is a valid question, and something that I'd be totally up for debating, although chances are I might actually take your side on this one. (I'll give you a minute to clean up the coffee you spat out all over your monitor). But as it stands, they ARE allowed to do it.
 

Tommy DJ

Member
No one isn't saying that they aren't allowed to do it. Or so I think.

What everyone is pointing out is the cognitive dissonance involved. The cognitive dissonance probably isn't really cognitive dissonance as both parties are very much aware of what they are doing. Of course no one is questioning why News Limited was spewing what could be considered propaganda. For a newspaper to do this is A-OK in the eyes of the Australian government and populace, I guess.
 

Arksy

Member
No one isn't saying that they aren't allowed to do it. Or so I think.

What everyone is pointing out is the cognitive dissonance involved. The cognitive dissonance probably isn't really cognitive dissonance as both parties are very much aware of what they are doing. Of course no one is questioning why News Limited was spewing what could be considered propaganda. For a newspaper to do this is A-OK in the eyes of the Australian government and populace, I guess.

Well you know my stance on the matter. I think it's fine. What I don't think is fine is the fact that we have such a limited supply of voices in public life. The internet DOES help alleviate that somewhat, but it would be nice to have a more pluralistic and diverse range of voices in our media. A more diverse media would also diversify ideas and be better able to hold the media to account when they go off on bullshit tangents. I don't always agree with News Ltd but I'll never relinquish the idea that they should be free to say it.
 

Tommy DJ

Member
What comforts me a little is that 99% of commentators on the ABC site seemed really confused by that statement because it actually makes no sense.

Well you know my stance on the matter. I think it's fine. What I don't think is fine is the fact that we have such a limited supply of voices in public life. The internet DOES help alleviate that somewhat, but it would be nice to have a more pluralistic and diverse range of voices in our media. A more diverse media would also diversify ideas and be better able to hold the media to account when they go off on bullshit tangents. I don't always agree with News Ltd but I'll never relinquish the idea that they should be free to say it.

The problem hasn't even got to do with voices and ideas. They should be held accountable for colluding with a political party to completely misrepresent fiscal matters. Its expected a political party would do this, what shouldn't be expected is a news agency to intentionally lie with the actual intent of lying and misleading the public. This is no different from what you believe the ABC could be capable of...only that its actually happening and the ABC doesn't actually do any of this ethically immoral rubbish.

Which really says more about the Australian people, to be honest.
 
A

A More Normal Bird

Unconfirmed Member
Well you know my stance on the matter. I think it's fine. What I don't think is fine is the fact that we have such a limited supply of voices in public life. The internet DOES help alleviate that somewhat, but it would be nice to have a more pluralistic and diverse range of voices in our media. A more diverse media would also diversify ideas and be better able to hold the media to account when they go off on bullshit tangents. I don't always agree with News Ltd but I'll never relinquish the idea that they should be free to say it.
You do understand the issue here right? The "deterioration" in the budget was reported as the legacy of Labor's ineptitude when the largest single factor in the change was not discretionary but a one off tax payment. If this was a payment to a relatively low profile entity it might be understandable that it got overlooked for so long, but instead it was a payment to the very media organisation which so enthusiastically reported the "blow-out". You think it's fine that they conveniently omitted that detail?
 

Arksy

Member
It does sound pretty bad doesn't it? Of course there could be other explanations here such as the writer of the article having zero fucking idea what's going on the business side of the company. It's not unheard of...but even if that is true, they should've amended later.

If they have in fact deliberately misled the public than I'm more than happy for them to be exposed as such and dragged through the mud. That's what SHOULD happen. What shouldn't happen is legal consequences and/or censorship. That's where I draw the line, yes, even if they have deliberately tried to mislead the Australian public. It's a cost I'm willing to stomach because the alternatives are too horrifying to even contemplate.
 

Myansie

Member
It does sound pretty bad doesn't it? Of course there could be other explanations here such as the writer of the article having zero fucking idea what's going on the business side of the company. It's not unheard of...but even if that is true, they should've amended later.

If they have in fact deliberately misled the public than I'm more than happy for them to be exposed as such and dragged through the mud. That's what SHOULD happen. What shouldn't happen is legal consequences and/or censorship. That's where I draw the line, yes, even if they have deliberately tried to mislead the Australian public. It's a cost I'm willing to stomach because the alternatives are too horrifying to even contemplate.

Newscorp is already guilty of censorship. See A More Normal Bird's post...

instead it was a payment to the very media organisation which so enthusiastically reported the "blow-out". You think it's fine that they conveniently omitted that detail?

When you own a huge chunk of the media landscape and you censor it, the repercussions are equally heinous whether you are a government or a corporation.
 
It's a cost I'm willing to stomach because the alternatives are too horrifying to even contemplate.

The power Murdoch has is far beyond whatever media regulation boogeyman you're dreaming up.

If he literally had someone murdered and used his media empire to pin it on someone else you'd still be yelling "evil state censorship! [person proposing any kind of regulation] is a fusion of Stalin and Mao from an alternate universe where Dragonball Z is real!" if anyone dared suggest anything.
 
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A More Normal Bird

Unconfirmed Member
It does sound pretty bad doesn't it? Of course there could be other explanations here such as the writer of the article having zero fucking idea what's going on the business side of the company. It's not unheard of...but even if that is true, they should've amended later.
I doubt this very much because we're not talking about an isolated incident here, but an editorial direction across a range of publications. Maybe individual writers were unaware, but the chances of that applying to everyone in the chain are slim.

If they have in fact deliberately misled the public than I'm more than happy for them to be exposed as such and dragged through the mud. That's what SHOULD happen. What shouldn't happen is legal consequences and/or censorship. That's where I draw the line, yes, even if they have deliberately tried to mislead the Australian public. It's a cost I'm willing to stomach because the alternatives are too horrifying to even contemplate.
Oh you. We already have enforceable retractions, corrections, apologies, fines etc... and that doesn't seem to have destroyed freedom of the press, as evidenced by the fact that we're discussing this latest incident.

Anyway, I'm actually not that worked up about it, because I've long given up on the Government or the press discussing federal budgets in a manner that in any way approaches reality. The lie of omission is just another step down that path, albeit a particularly grubby one. This though:
The galling feature for the Tax Office is that the original deals that cost taxpayers $882 million cost News nothing.

In a 1989 meeting, four News Corp Australia executives exchanged cheques and share transfers between local and overseas subsidiaries that moved through several currencies.

They were paper transactions; no funds actually moved. In 2000 and 2001 the loans were unwound. With the Australian dollar riding high, News Corp’s Australian subsidiaries recorded a $2 billion loss, while other subsidiaries in tax havens recorded a $2 billion gain.

By last July that paper “loss”, booked against News Corp’s Australian newspaper operations, had become an $882 million cash payout.

Ridiculous. I can't wait for Abbott and Hockey to end the age of entitlement and put a stop to this sort of thing.
 

Arksy

Member
Not if they suggest anything, just if they suggest censorship. I'm quite aware of the consequences of free-speech, I am still willing to accept them over the alternative.

There are solutions that don't involve media regulation and censorship. In the case of a murder we'd be able to solve it through proper application of criminal law. There's a reason why there's a media freeze out when a Jury is empaneled. There is no reason to censor the press because one media outlet acted badly. Of course this is amplified by the fact we have *TWO* private media outlets in Australia, where one is significantly more powerful than the other.

A lack of competition is the real problem here, this won't be reported because News Ltd won't condemn themselves and the ABC has fallen in line too scared to report on anything that could spark outrage from the government. If there were thirty media outlets you could bet there'd be at least half a dozen willing to bring them down a notch.
 

Arksy

Member
Oh you. We already have enforceable retractions, corrections, apologies, fines etc... and that doesn't seem to have destroyed freedom of the press, as evidenced by the fact that we're discussing this latest incident.

Not...really...We don't really have enforced apologies for anything other than defamation. There are some powers ACMA have over Radio and TV but it holds almost zero sway over internet and print contact. That's what the media laws proposed last year were partially about, giving ACMA a lot more teeth.

Also it's enforcement measures deal more with imposing licensing conditions rather than strict penalties, but in some cases it can be used as a tool of censorship as seen in the case with Alan Jones. It's also important to note that it's likely that these measures are unconstitutional and the constitutional issue will likely be raised quite soon. Especially after the major victory for freedom of political communication in the recent case regarding political funding from Unions and Corporations.

Also another interesting tidbit, Fairfax and News Ltd basically were preparing an entire army for challenging Labor's media laws last year. It just sucks that there was some good parts about that bill regarding ownership that were lost because of the standards/censorship provisions.
 
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A More Normal Bird

Unconfirmed Member
To clarify, the distinctions and limits of these various measures are largely arbitrary. Penalties for defamation influence what the media will publish, as do licensing regulations (and ownership laws!). There is no natural law that states that something enshrined in a criminal or civil statute is more or less worthy of enforcement than something that isn't, which is why I find your sort of argument on censorship to be pretty much the slippery slope fallacy. I don't know, does the conservative veneration of institution/resistance to experimentation and revision play a part in the argument alongside the usual laissez-faire approach to free speech?
 

Arksy

Member
To clarify, the distinctions and limits of these various measures are largely arbitrary. Penalties for defamation influence what the media will publish, as do licensing regulations (and ownership laws!). There is no natural law that states that something enshrined in a criminal or civil statute is more or less worthy of enforcement than something that isn't, which is why I find your sort of argument on censorship to be pretty much the slippery slope fallacy. I don't know, does the conservative veneration of institution/resistance to experimentation and revision play a part in the argument alongside the usual laissez-faire approach to free speech?

I don't really understand your argument here. If something is a criminal penalty then a completely different set of consequences flow as opposed to a civil penalty. In civil law you can only recuperate the damage you have caused to a person. It's not about punishment like the criminal law. In that light there is a very different set of discretionary principles that prosecutors and enforcers typically use such as 'Is it in the public interest? Does the community benefit? Do we need to send a message?' In civil law, such as defamation it's very different, it's about restitution.

Of course being asked to pay money due to damage done to a person's reputation because you've slandered them without justification (hint: There's a lot of justifications that get you off for defamation, freedom of political communication, fair comment and truth being some of them) is very different to being thrown in jail for criticising the government. Also I have no idea what makes you think I'm a conservative. After all I have spent the last dozen pages or so arguing for completely re-imagining our democracy with open primaries, recall mechanisms and citizens initiative or at least citizens petition like they've recently done in the UK. :p
 

Jintor

Member
Media Watch just reminded me that the Daily Mail is coming over to Australia. Boy... media diversity, huh? *sighs*

[*] this is a facetious comment and not meant to represent the position that I am anti media diversity or something. Just the Daily Mail, because it's the yellowest of yellow journalism
 

Tommy DJ

Member
What on earth does the Mail have to gain from entering the Australian market? Its not like its content, or lack of, is particularly unique compared to the other rag newspapers we have.
 

Arksy

Member
This could be a blessing in disguise, if they come and do well it might prompt other media outlets to follow.

Or we could just get the Daily Mail.
 
A

A More Normal Bird

Unconfirmed Member
I don't really understand your argument here. If something is a criminal penalty then a completely different set of consequences flow as opposed to a civil penalty. In civil law you can only recuperate the damage you have caused to a person. It's not about punishment like the criminal law. In that light there is a very different set of discretionary principles that prosecutors and enforcers typically use such as 'Is it in the public interest? Does the community benefit? Do we need to send a message?' In civil law, such as defamation it's very different, it's about restitution.

Of course being asked to pay money due to damage done to a person's reputation because you've slandered them without justification (hint: There's a lot of justifications that get you off for defamation, freedom of political communication, fair comment and truth being some of them) is very different to being thrown in jail for criticising the government. Also I have no idea what makes you think I'm a conservative. After all I have spent the last dozen pages or so arguing for completely re-imagining our democracy with open primaries, recall mechanisms and citizens initiative or at least citizens petition like they've recently done in the UK. :p

I know the difference between civil and criminal law! My point is much broader than that. I'm not sure how to explain it other than to reiterate that the limits and distinctions of these measures are arbitrary. There's no natural law at play here, just because something is or isn't regulated doesn't mean it should or shouldn't be. Restrictions on undisclosed advertising limit what the media can say, media ownership laws limit what the media can say. You often advocate that any restrictions on what the media can say should be opposed, but we already have them in spades, whether they were designed to or do so indirectly. Giving more teeth to ACMA doesn't necessarily mean that anyone who criticises the government will end up in a cell. On the other hand, if I follow your logic about the media being dragged through the mud but facing no legal consequences I end up asking: "why do we need defamation laws? If something is untrue, the truth will come out, the aggrieved party's reputation will be restored and people will know not to trust the defamer again."

I know you're not really a conservative, but I don't really understand your position. You support a number of things that restrict the media like ownership and (presumably) defamation and advertising laws, but anything else is a slippery slope to authoritarian censorship. It doesn't seem consistent to me, especially when you're advocating a number of mechanisms that would make it easier to repeal any legislation that had unintended consequences.

Apologies if this is a bit confrontational and/or nonsensical, I've been going a bit stir crazy lately, as well as playing too much AoE II when I should be sleeping.
 

Arksy

Member
Bah. Sorry I went off on that tangent. I was having a bit of difficulty in understanding your argument. It’s totally my fault. :p – I’ve been playing way too much Civ V.

I might as well explain my position from first principles right here. I’m HOPING this clears things up somewhat.

In order to guarantee a free and fair society where power is dispersed as far as possible and not concentrated in the hands of a few, the strength and integrity of the democratic process is paramount. To ensure this, individuals must be free to advocate the ideas they feel strongly about. There is a good medium for sorting out good ideas from bad, and that’s the process itself. We as the many need to be able to decide for ourselves what kind of society we want. Once you start restricting the matter and manner of what people are allowed to pitch into that democratic process you start moving away from rule of the many and you start moving towards the rule of a few. The second objection to restricting the flow of ideas, whether they be good or bad is that you’re inhibiting people from advocating for positions that they feel passionate about which is a form of oppression.

You can probably find that thread in most of my arguments. My arguments against intellectualism as a form of elitism which concentrates power to a few, to my argument in favour of open primaries and recall mechanisms which disperses power downwards to everyone. From public funding for political campaigns to national curriculums.

In saying this, I absolutely support the existence of defamation legislation. Defamation isn’t about the exercise of power. It’s about compensating individuals who have suffered measurable damage from your actions. It’s another tort, just like negligence or trespass to person. The democratic process cannot really be harmed by the existence of defamation and to the extent it can, that's where the numerous defences come into play.

I’m not exactly sure where you pieced together that I was in favour of restricting ownership, I was under the impression that the media laws were about relaxing regulations on ownership and allowing a lot more players into the market, especially in rural areas. I might be mistaken though. For the record I might as well just say that as a general rule I’m not for restricting ownership except in the case of a monopoly and that’s only to ensure pluralism, which again is a requisite of a proper democracy. Same goes for advertising laws. I’m not sure which ones I said I support. It can sometimes be a bit hard to keep track considering I’m usually arguing with about half a dozen people at a time. I mean my level of support varies depending on if we’re talking about political advertisements or laws banning false and misleading product advertisements.

My Uncle was thrown in prison for having a selection of communist texts and exacerbated his sham sentence given to him by professing to be a communist. Much the similar thing happened to my Father, but his sentence was a lot shorter. Another two relatives were killed in a protest, they were shot by police officers. My parents are from a country that in relation to media laws, is almost exactly like the one Orwell describes. To this day, prisons there are full of Journalists, they’ve just passed an internet censorship bill and another bill to ‘reign-in’ the judiciary. There were protests a year ago, and over three million people participated, yet news of the protest were never broadcast over the news.

I feel like been able to see the effects of what happens when societies go down this path. It is true that my experiences have shaped my position on this issue, but that doesn’t mean my position is irrational or inconsistent. Hopefully this clears it up. Feel free to take me to task if I'm still rambling on like a madman.

P.S: Not too confrontational haha. It’s all good we’re having a debate about issues that inspire a lot of passion in people. I have a thick skin. I have to keep coming back to this thread or maybe I’m just a sucker for punishment..... :p
 

Dryk

Member
A lack of competition is the real problem here, this won't be reported because News Ltd won't condemn themselves and the ABC has fallen in line too scared to report on anything that could spark outrage from the government. If there were thirty media outlets you could bet there'd be at least half a dozen willing to bring them down a notch.
Where could we even find more competition? News Ltd has far too much power for any start-up newspaper that they don't want around to last any meaningful amount of time.
 

Mondy

Banned
Where could we even find more competition? News Ltd has far too much power for any start-up newspaper that they don't want around to last any meaningful amount of time.

The death of print media is not a matter of if but when. And when it does die, it won't matter if Murdoch has 90% of media ownership in this country. People are abandoning the website editions of all his major newspapers in droves, and are setting up camp with the ABC, The Guardian and even on social media itself like Twitter, because if there's a major news story breaking, it'll be trending worldwide in a very short time. Perhaps not most local news but that's what the 6pm bulletin is for.

Last nights Media Watch illustrates this point perfectly:

http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/

Murdochs days are numbered, whether he likes it or not. His window to adapt to trends has long since past and he was too busy turning Fox News into a right wing profit machine to notice. Mr. Silver Spoon himself, Lachlan Murdoch has already had his image sullied by both the News of the World scandal and his quite frankly atrocious management record of Network 10. There is no legacy for the Murdochs.
 

Gazunta

Member
God you should have seen my shit eating grin while watching Media Watch last night.

Mondy said:
The death of print media is not a matter of if but when. And when it does die, it won't matter if Murdoch has 90% of media ownership in this country.

Fucking nailed it.
 

wonzo

Banned
lolboltsruyu.png
 

Mondy

Banned
I'm thinking Tones should be very afraid of this new Senate Election in WA. There could be a trend against the Libs which could deliver Labor a few more seats, on top of the one the Sports Party maverick Dropulich picked up.

Here are the previous results bar the missing votes:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/federal-e...lts/senate/wa/

There's 3 Libs there waiting for the chop. I doubt all of them will go but gift one or two of them to Labor and the new Senate could be more interesting then first thought.
 

hidys

Member
I'm thinking Tones should be very afraid of this new Senate Election in WA. There could be a trend against the Libs which could deliver Labor a few more seats, on top of the one the Sports Party maverick Dropulich picked up.

Here are the previous results bar the missing votes:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/federal-e...lts/senate/wa/

There's 3 Libs there waiting for the chop. I doubt all of them will go but gift one or two of them to Labor and the new Senate could be more interesting then first thought.

They might loose one, but they will almost certainly get 2.
 
A

A More Normal Bird

Unconfirmed Member
Thank you for this, it's very thorough. In a way I'm glad there are people as informed and vigilant on the topic as you are in our society, but I still don't see how you reconcile your stance (e.g. exceptions to prevent monopolies) with your blanket statements on the issue. Could just be pedantry. I'm more of a judge things for what they are guy, and I suspect that others in this thread are as well, judging by some of the responses you've received.
 

bomma_man

Member
Arksy I'm interested in how you reconcile your classical liberalism and your radical democratic tendencies. Historically they've been completely opposing positions (from my understanding that's what the left and right divide originated from in the first place). This isn't a gotcha question, I'm genuinely interested.
 

Mondy

Banned
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...fails-taxpayers-economist-20140219-3316n.html

Energy sector privatisation in Australia has been a “failure” which has produced “no benefits” for consumers, but has resulted in “large fiscal losses” to taxpayers, a new report has found.

Economist John Quiggin, a laureate fellow at the University of Queensland, reviewed energy sector privatisation and the related process of electricity market reform between the early 1990s and now, and found no long term benefits for either governments or consumers.

The report, which was commissioned by the Victorian branch of the Electrical Trades Union, found electricity prices were highest in privatised states, and had “risen sharply” since the introduction of the National Electricity Market.

Concluding comments in Professor Quiggin's report

Professor Quiggin said his review also found customer dissatisfaction had risen “markedly” in privatised states (primarily Victoria and South Australia) and “efficient” investment and operation had not occurred, with money instead diverted to areas such as management and marketing.
Advertisement

He found that while state-owned enterprises were presented as being a burden on the public purse during privatisation campaigns, they tended to be “consistently profitable” and “in all cases, the option of continued public ownership yielded long-term returns as good as, or better than, the option of selling assets and using the proceeds to repay debt”.

“My general conclusion is that privatisation in general hasn't improved the financial situation of state governments, as is one of the primary motives for selling,” Professor Quiggin said.

“The entire process of electricity market reform hasn't worked in terms of bringing improved outcomes for consumers.

“We have seen for example, some elements of consumer choice in the reforms but really the assumption was that consumer choice would drive prices down, when in fact prices have risen very substantially. So overall the outcomes have been very negative.

“...Prices have gone up in all markets with or without privatisation. That is largely due to the structure of reforms being misconceived.

“We went from a situation of public owned utilities with an integrated system of energy retailer distribution to separating those functions. We have just seen that sort of process not deliver the right kind of investment decisions.

“That has been true with or without privatisation. But one of the claims made by advocates of privatisation is that markets work better with instances of privatisation – I haven't found that to be the case at all.”

Professor Quiggin said he looked at how governments fared holding on to electricity assets and retaining their earnings, compared to selling assets and using the proceeds to pay down debt.

He concluded governments which held onto the assets “did better”.

“Privatising the [Queensland electricity] industry in 1996, as recommended at the time [by the Borbidge LNP government commission of audit], would have resulted in the loss of dividends, as well as forgoing capital gains. The total loss to the public would have been around $15 billion,” he concluded in his report.

Professor Quiggin said the market system put in place had also “failed badly” to cope with the arrival of renewable energy options, despite climate change already being seen as an issue when the reforms were put in place.

“The market has failed to cope properly with renewable so we have seen a continuation of failure of policy there to make proper use of renewable and integrate them properly into the system,” he said.

“We have seen instead a bunch of adhoc responses in terms to blame renewable or use renewable to drive up costs, when all of this really reflects design flaws in the system.”

The Peter Costello-led commission of audit report released last year recommended the state divest its electricity assets to pay down debt.

After internal debate, the government ruled out selling the retail arms of the electricity sector – Energex and Ergon – but said the generator corporations and Powerlink could be sold if the government is given a mandate at the next election.

Acting Treasurer Scott Emerson had not seen a copy of the report on Wednesday, but said "Scoping studies looking at the future operations of generators CS Energy and Stanwell Corporation will consider all the effects of any possible sale.

"The Newman Government will have a mature, disciplined discussion with Queenslanders in 2014 about the choices confronting them for higher taxes and charges, fewer services or the sale of some government owned businesses to fund improved services and infrastructure," he said.

Professor Quiggin is a long term critic of privatisation and described the previous Labor government's asset-sale agenda as “unsound”.

Awww well no fucking shit.
 

bomma_man

Member
Shocking news. Energy seems like one of those natural monopolies (like telecommunications fml) that the free market just cannot be shoe horned into no matter how hard the ideologues try.
 

Arksy

Member
I'll reply to you Bomma man properly when I've got some control of my faculties, but on the whole 'privatisation' - no fucking shit.

You have a government, which appropriates a very large sum of money to build a large infrastructure project and then you hand the reigns over to a small group of people and somehow expect anything to change except that this small group of people becomes even richer. The cost of entry is so fucking high which is why the government did it in the first place.

I prefer a free market solution but let's not pretend that the free market has had a chance in this situation. 95% of privatisations are just making an existing government monopoly private..and that's completely bullshit.
 

hidys

Member
I'll reply to you Bomma man properly when I've got some control of my faculties, but on the whole 'privatisation' - no fucking shit.

You have a government, which appropriates a very large sum of money to build a large infrastructure project and then you hand the reigns over to a small group of people and somehow expect anything to change except that this small group of people becomes even richer. The cost of entry is so fucking high which is why the government did it in the first place.

I prefer a free market solution but let's not pretend that the free market has had a chance in this situation. 95% of privatisations are just making an existing government monopoly private..and that's completely bullshit.

Electricity generation is also a natural monopoly (a product or service that is more efficiently provided as a monopoly than in a competitive environment) which are virtually always better off in the hands of government than they are in the hands of private ownership.
 

Mondy

Banned
Also, for the lols:

The Privacy Commissioner and the Immigration Department have launched investigations into how details of thousands of asylum seekers in Australia were inadvertently made accessible online.

The breach could potentially see thousands of asylum seekers in Australia who were previously ineligible for refugee status have their claims validated, one legal expert says.

Refugee lawyer David Manne said the law was "crystal clear that identification of a person seeking protection can result in them being granted protection on that basis itself".


"It's a fundamental principle of refugee law that a person seeking asylum should be free to make their claim free of disclosure of their identity to the authorities in their home country," he said, describing the reported revelation as one of the most "grave and dangerous breaches of privacy in Australian history".

Guardian Australia reported on Wednesday that the personal details of a third of asylum seekers held in Australia – making up about 10,000 people – were revealed on the Immigration Department's website.

Privacy Commissioner Timothy Pilgrim announced on Wednesday afternoon that he had spoken to Immigration and had "been assured" that the information was "no longer publicly available".

Describing the breach as a "serious incident" Mr Pilgrim said he would investigate how it occurred. He added that Immigration would provide a detailed report about the incident as part of the investigation.

Later on Wednesday, Immigration Minister Scott Morrison released a statement confirming that an "immigration detention statistics report" released on the department's website on February 11 "inadvertently provided access to the underlying data source used to collate the report content which included private information on detainees".

Mr Morrison welcomed Mr Pilgrim's investigation and said Immigration Department's secretary Martin Bowles had also tasked KPMG to review how the breach occured, with an interim report due next week.

He said the "unacceptable incident" was a "serious breach of privacy" by the department.

"I have asked the department Secretary to keep me informed of the actions that have been initiated, including any disciplinary measures that may be taken, as appropriate," Mr Morrison said.

The Immigration Minister said that immediate steps had been taken to remove the documents from the department's website after media alerted it of the breach.

"The information was never intended to be in the public domain, nor was it in an easily accessible format within the public domain," he said.

Mr Morrison also told Sky News it was still to be seen whether the release of the information would have implications for the protection claims of the asylum seekers involved.

‘‘All people’s protection claims are considered individually on the merits of each specific case,’’ he said.

‘‘There would be no general rule that would apply to these sorts of things.’’

A report by Guardian Australia said the information online included all asylum seekers held in a mainland detention facilities, on Christmas Island and several thousand in community detention. Children were also included.

Despite the federal government's insistence about the need for greater secrecy when it comes to immigration and border protection, the full names, nationalities, location, arrival date and boat arrival information was reportedly revealed on the department's website.

Guardian Australia has not identified where the database was located online and said it told the department about the information before it reported the breach.

Refugee Council of Australia president Phil Glendenning said the release of asylum seekers' information was "outrageous" and unprecedented.

"We are deeply disturbed by this," he told Fairfax Media.

Mr Glendenning said the breach ran the risk of exposing people who were already vulnerable to "very serious danger".

This not only included reprisals if asylum seekers were sent back to their country of origin, but their families - either in home countries, or transit countries in between.

The Refugee Council is also seeking particular assurances about the safety of people in community detention who may have had their location revealed.

Labor's immigration spokesman Richard Marles said the report was an "enormous concern". "Let's be clear - this is a government with a culture of secrecy but it is utterly unable to manage secrecy," he told reporters in Canberra.

Coalition MP Jane Prentice told Sky News that the breach was a "shocking mistake" and that the "full ramifications" would have to be examined.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...ugee-status-20140219-330ai.html#ixzz2tmjWeo52

10,000 otherwise ineligible Asylum Seekers granted asylum by default. How many boat arrivals is that worth?

You're an absolute dropkick, Scott Morrison.
 

Arksy

Member
Electricity generation is also a natural monopoly (a product or service that is more efficiently provided as a monopoly than in a competitive environment) which are virtually always better off in the hands of government than they are in the hands of private ownership.

I completely agree that electricity and other utilities are sometimes better more efficiently provided as a monopoly but I'm of the opinion that we'd be better off trading some efficiency for some utility. So I'd still prefer a TRUE free market solution. (N.B: Selling off monopoly government assets don't count).

However, if it's absolutely impossible for one to exist for one reason or another, and we HAVE TO HAVE a monopoly...than I yes, It should be in the governments hands. Which is why I've disagreed with a number of recent attempts at privatisation.
 

hidys

Member
I completely agree that electricity and other utilities are sometimes better more efficiently provided as a monopoly but I'm of the opinion that we'd be better off trading some efficiency for some utility. So I'd still prefer a TRUE free market solution. (N.B: Selling off monopoly government assets don't count).

However, if it's absolutely impossible for one to exist for one reason or another, and we HAVE TO HAVE a monopoly...than I yes, It should be in the governments hands. Which is why I've disagreed with a number of recent attempts at privatisation.

The thing about a natural monopoly is that the long run average cost of providing said good or service is significantly cheaper when it is provided in a competitive environment. Electricity is one example where the evidence shows that it would be bad economic policy to allow a free market system. Here is a graph courtesy of Wikipedia:

618px-Natural_monopoly.jpg
 
A

A More Normal Bird

Unconfirmed Member
Well, Quiggin is just bloated with left wing bias. He probably only did all this research and calculation to debunk what appears to be a perfectly common sense suggestion from our nation's greatest treasurer, Peter Costello. Quiggin may have his comparative examples and his modelling and evidence, but Peter didn't deliver surpluses year on year without learning a thing or two about selling public assets.

Electricity generation is also a natural monopoly (a product or service that is more efficiently provided as a monopoly than in a competitive environment) which are virtually always better off in the hands of government than they are in the hands of private ownership.

I completely agree that electricity and other utilities are sometimes better more efficiently provided as a monopoly but I'm of the opinion that we'd be better off trading some efficiency for some utility. So I'd still prefer a TRUE free market solution. (N.B: Selling off monopoly government assets don't count).

However, if it's absolutely impossible for one to exist for one reason or another, and we HAVE TO HAVE a monopoly...than I yes, It should be in the governments hands. Which is why I've disagreed with a number of recent attempts at privatisation.

The thing about a natural monopoly is that the long run average cost of providing said good or service is significantly cheaper when it is provided in a competitive environment. Electricity is one example where the evidence shows that it would be bad economic policy to allow a free market system. Here is a graph courtesy of Wikipedia:
Well put, though I think there may be one caveat. A "true" free market delivery could be more efficient/cost effective as long as there was minimal to no duplication. The only problem with that is there are few scenarios in which that can occur; a good example would the competition between the cable companies like Optus and Telstra in the days before NBN was a household term. Instead of laying cable everywhere they could, they picked their battlegrounds selectively, opting for the areas where they could get the most profit with the least competition. So I guess if you were ok with millions of Australians going without mains electricity and disparities in infrastructure quality for those who do have it it would be a good idea.
 

Dryk

Member
As some that lives in an area that can use either Telstra cable or ADSL let me tell you that it doesn't matter how cost efficient it is if the service is that shit. We had to ring them several times every winter because the rain would cause our internet to drop out constantly. We finally convinced them last year (after about 4-5 years of them telling us there was nothing wrong) to come and fix it and low-and-behold not only was our pit more mud than air but there was a fault further up the cable.
 

Arksy

Member
What that graph ignores is that a monopoly will just rort everyone up the ass and zero competition means as a rule they provide a shit service.
 
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