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AusPoliGAF |OT| Boats? What Boats?

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Tommy DJ

Member
I'm more than happy to take the hit for having faith in the electorate....

But...

Like...

You know...

Things currently...are pretty damn bad...for asylum seekers.....and we have no real power to constrain the government. The things I saw on dateline last night made me sick to my stomach. Are you somehow suggesting it'd be worse with open primaries or citizens initiative? Because I really don't see how. :|

As I noted previously, Switzerland actually isn't a bastion of good politics. They are just as bad as the rest of us. At the end of the day, the Australian government reflects the values held by Australians since we voted them in. The problem with direct democracy is that while it provides power to the people, nothing is preventing these people from being influenced by demagoguery and commercial blitzes. An example would be the minaret ban, which was basically pushed by the SVP (a major political party) who are famously anti-Muslim and immigration.

It'd actually be interesting if we had direct democracy in Australia. That poll seemed to suggest we're mostly fine with how we're treating asylum seekers, with 28% believing we're too easy on them. So that's at least 62% of people (this is well and truly a majority) surveyed that are fine with us doing what we're doing. Which is why the government treats asylum seekers badly in the first place, since that's what a lot of us appear to want.

And looking at the trend, a direct democracy approach could actually make it worse since people want harsher measures to be taken. Appenzell Innerrhoden is pretty much the prime example of how direct democracy can seriously fuck things up for minorities. At the end of the day, the asylum seekers are at mercy to the tyranny of some majority and direct democracy will not rectify this disgrace, if the poll is to be believed, since this is actually what a lot of Australians increasingly want.
 

Danoss

Member
I think you'll find that's not the case, although QLD to be fair is not much better.

Watch the reaction from those in the hills when you insinuate they belong to western Sydney, they don't believe they're like them. Wander around Auburn, Blacktown, Parramatta, Campbelltown, Liverpool, Cabramatta, or head further west to places like Mt Druitt and tell me these are upper middle class white people. Be sure to visit certain parts of or near these urban centres and tell me you even feel safe. Airds (Campbelltown), Miller (Liverpool) and Bidwell (Mt Druitt) should be more than enough.

You're welcome to come to my suburb of South Wentworthville and we can look around here together. We can travel across the highway to Wentworthville itself and see the plethora of Indian supermarkets, and if you ask I'll tell you what used to be there (not singling the race or culture out, but this suburb is changing as the remaining old residents are dying). We can tour around the various other suburbs of western Sydney and then conclude it with a trip through the suburbs that make up the hills district.

After all this, I don't think you'll be singing the same tune.
 

Arksy

Member
I know nearly nothing about Western Sydney, except what I heard in the press, such as it was a migrant settlement outpost for an ethnic invasion of the country.
 

wonzo

Banned
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Myansie

Member
That's because the left and right hate Labor's solution. Where as the right fall in line and approve the Libs policies no matter what. By comparison Tony Abbott's approval rating is 43% as well. 43% is still a shittie number. All this shows is both parties need to rethink their strategy, particularly Labor.
 
That still doesn't make it any less horrifying that almost half of the population seem to approve of the current asylum seeker "solution".

As long as they don't have to think about how inhumane the solution is , they don't care , just so long as it "Stops the Boats".
 
Welp, got a give them props, it takes guts to do something like this, so little time after the WorkChoices fiasco. I have a hard time remembering the last time the ALP showed even 10% of the chutzpah.
 
Hey, I've got an idea that could bring some money in if the problem's really that bad. We could have some kind of tax on natural resources to make sure the country is getting a fair share of the profit on its resources. Call it a mining tax or whatever.
 
A

A More Normal Bird

Unconfirmed Member
why is it that overwhelmingly it is rich people who decry other people for being ' entitled'
Because they know the path to success. Gina didn't become the owner of highly valuable prospecting rights by sitting around collecting welfare. I'm not sure exactly how she did it, but judging by some of her advice it seems like being willing to work for $2 a day, forgoing leisure time and not indulging in luxuries like food and alcohol played a large part.
 
Maybe if she rejected all the government co-investment, the diesel surcharge tax relief and other various government handouts she gets it wouldn't ring as hollow as it does.
 
Because they know the path to success. Gina didn't become the owner of highly valuable prospecting rights by sitting around collecting welfare. I'm not sure exactly how she did it, but judging by some of her advice it seems like being willing to work for $2 a day, forgoing leisure time and not indulging in luxuries like food and alcohol played a large part.

Let's see.

Assume you work 24 hours a day. From the moment you're born. And that (somehow) you live to be 90. At $US2 an hour , assuming you don't have expenditures since you work 24 hours a day.

$2 / hours x 24 hr/day x 365.25 days/year x 90 years/life = $1,577,880

Gina's net worth = $ 17 000 000 000

In conclusion Gina has clearly worked hard for ~11, 000 life times. Which, at 90 years a life time, is incidentally ~5x as long as the human species has existed. That's some really hard work.
 

Mondy

Banned
Let's see.

Assume you work 24 hours a day. From the moment you're born. And that (somehow) you live to be 90. At $US2 an hour , assuming you don't have expenditures since you work 24 hours a day.

$2 / hours x 24 hr/day x 365.25 days/year x 90 years/life = $1,577,880

Gina's net worth = $ 17 000 000 000

In conclusion Gina has clearly worked hard for ~11, 000 life times. Which, at 90 years a life time, is incidentally ~5x as long as the human species has existed. That's some really hard work.

That's a lot of math just to come to the obvious conclusion that Gina Rinehart is a Thatcherist, elitist bitch.
 

Mondy

Banned
The best thing about Thatcherism is just how much the doctrine enrages people at it's mere mention.

That's because it is the absolute worst thing that has ever happened in politics ever. She was basically an intelligent Tea Partier.
 
American here with a random question; how soon can Tony Abbott be voted out of office? I've read the Senate is hostile to his agenda so could it be possible he could call an election this year if gridlock in the chamber is too great?
 

Mondy

Banned
American here with a random question; how soon can Tony Abbott be voted out of office? I've read the Senate is hostile to his agenda so could it be possible he could call an election this year if gridlock in the chamber is too great?

A new Senate was elected at the same time as Abbott that is coming into power in July. The new Senate is primarily made up of right wing senators from various minor parties as the balance of power. Abbott won't have any trouble getting along with them.

The earliest he can be voted out at this point is 2016, so we're in for a fun few years.

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/fed...rom-hardliner-tony-abbott-20140310-34gn3.html

And that's all she wrote. Now you know we elected a fuckwit.
 

bomma_man

Member
There is also the possibility of a double dissolution election, where both houses are dissolved due to the senate blocking a piece of legislation twice (?) but we haven't had one of them since the 70's. It's honestly more likely (yet still extremely unlikely) that he'll be knifed by his own party.
 
There is also the possibility of a double dissolution election, where both houses are dissolved due to the senate blocking a piece of legislation twice (?) but we haven't had one of them since the 70's. It's honestly more likely (yet still extremely unlikely) that he'll be knifed by his own party.

The thing I don't get though is why the Liberal Party in Australia is so much more right wing than those in Canada or the UK? Abbott is much more farther right than even Conservatives like David Cameron or Stephen Harper, at least they support abortion, gay rights and think climate change is real.

As an American, I'm sorry if our politics have any blame on politicians like Abbott being exported to Australia.
 

Arksy

Member
The thing I don't get though is why the Liberal Party in Australia is so much more right wing than those in Canada or the UK? Abbott is much more farther right than even Conservatives like David Cameron or Stephen Harper, at least they support abortion, gay rights and think climate change is real.

As an American, I'm sorry if our politics have any blame on politicians like Abbott being exported to Australia.

They don't.

Our politics are not like American politics at all.

I don't really understand where you get that Abbott is anti-abortion. Considering he supported the move to place an abortion drug on our subsidised medications scheme. This is you know, despite the fact that abortion as a simple choice is illegal in all but one state. As you can see, America has more liberal laws regarding abortion.
 

bomma_man

Member
The thing I don't get though is why the Liberal Party in Australia is so much more right wing than those in Canada or the UK? Abbott is much more farther right than even Conservatives like David Cameron or Stephen Harper, at least they support abortion, gay rights and think climate change is real.

As an American, I'm sorry if our politics have any blame on politicians like Abbott being exported to Australia.

Abbott is an ardent social conservative but I don't think he personally cares all that much about neo-liberal economics. He's kinda the anti-Cameron in that sense. Malcolm Turnbull, the man Abbott beat in a leadership ballot by one vote, is certainly in the socially liberal corporatist mould though (and is one of the most popular politicians in the country).
 
The thing I don't get though is why the Liberal Party in Australia is so much more right wing than those in Canada or the UK? Abbott is much more farther right than even Conservatives like David Cameron or Stephen Harper, at least they support abortion, gay rights and think climate change is real.

As an American, I'm sorry if our politics have any blame on politicians like Abbott being exported to Australia.

What you have to understand about Abbott is that he has personal social views and political social views and very rarely do they marry up. He's about as cynical politician as we've ever had, he doesn't have a political position that can't be condensed to a 3 word slogan nor a belief that can't be swayed by his rampant populism.

There are far better people in his party both to the left and to the right of him, but he was installed as an attack dog to say anything and do anything to bring down the former government and as it turned out he was very successful and somehow became PM. Right now he is the oblivious Teflon figurehead deflecting all questions, denying all policies while the real brains of the operation get about their business behind his back. At times he reminds me of Sergeant Schultz from Hogan's Heroes, "I know nothing!"

American here with a random question; how soon can Tony Abbott be voted out of office? I've read the Senate is hostile to his agenda so could it be possible he could call an election this year if gridlock in the chamber is too great?

The two houses operate on separate electoral schedules. The House of Reps (Congress, House of Commons etc..) runs on a 3 year max term, but an election can be called earlier as the term is not fixed. The Senate has 6 year fixed terms for senators that come from six states with half up for election every 3 years, and 3 year unfixed terms for the 4 senators that come from the 2 territories and their elections runs in parallel with the lower house. So even though Abbott was elected last September and became PM a couple of weeks later, the new Senate who were voted on the same day don't take up their seats until July 1 this year.

As mentioned the senate is only going to get more conservative though Abbott still won't have a majority and will have to deal with a myriad of minor parties and individuals all conservative in some way. The major issue will be Clive Palmer and his motley lot of senators, an ex Liberal member and president? who hates the party now and will likely cause havoc for his own political and financial purpose.
 

Salazar

Member
Wow, the Daily Telly reading, Hadley listening poor oppressed white man "minority" is out in full force on Q&A tonight!

I wouldn't have even bothered if I were Marcia. Someone able to convince themselves that indigenous Australians bargain from a political position of strength is just dead to reality.
 

wonzo

Banned
Rather sad these kinds of questions aren't being asked here instead of overseas radio stations. :(
On Tuesday morning UK time, BBC Radio 4’s John Humphrys questioned her about Canberra’s “inhumane” detention centres on Nauru and in Papua New Guinea (interview starts at 1:14.20). The presenter noted the centres had been described as having the look and feel of concentration camps and suggested Australia was “effectively operating a sort of Guantanamo Bay ... only in some ways even worse”.

Bishop defended Australia’s policy, saying the federal government had taken a “tough line” to deter people from making the journey by sea with consequent drownings.

“Our aim is to dismantle the people-smuggling trade that flourished in South East Asia,” the foreign minister told BBC radio. “We’ve done this before and it worked.”

…

Humphrys asked Bishop: “Why can’t you have these detention centres in Australia?” Of the the offshore camps he said: “That’s not a very civilised way of going about it.”

He then asked Bishop about the death on Manus Island. “Yes, well 1,200 people have died on boats trying to get to [Australia],” she replied, before the radio host interrupted to ask if that justified the PNG death.

“No I didn’t say it justified it at all, I just said we are trying to stop people coming by boat,” Bishop said. “This is what happens in unruly behaviour when violence occurs – and it’s tragic.”
 

bomma_man

Member
Bernie Fraser went in.

Asked to define the “good guys” and the “bad guys” in this analysis, he says: “The good guys are the mainstream scientific bloc and their analysis of why the planet is warming up.

“The bad guys are the mavericks, the kind we hear on the radio, who don’t accept the science and who attack the scientists, I ignore them and they deserve to be ignored … but it’s more serious when you get to people in positions of influence, in industry associations or companies, or in the government and the opposition who in some cases say they believe the science but then don’t act as if they do.

“In the case of the companies and business associations, they are speaking their book and that is understandable. Companies pursue self-interest rather than community interest. The problem becomes really serious when those self-interested views tend to have disproportionate influence on the policy-makers and that is happening at the present time … particularly because there is not an effective countering of those kinds of views.”

And that brings Fraser to the Labor party.

“The Labor party has lost its way,” he says. “That is one of the reasons why the government and the big companies are getting away with blue murder on some of these things, just asserting things, because Labor is not picking them up effectively.

“Labor has changed its mind so many times the public is just confused about what they stand for on climate change at the moment. I suspect some members of the Labor party are also confused about what they are doing ...
 

Jintor

Member
I really can't tell if that's just normal attack advertising or racist attack advertising. I'm... inclined more towards the latter, to be honest. They should've at least put her (obviously white) portrait shot in there if they wanted to avoid the appearance of racism.
 

wonzo

Banned
The constant EMBOLDENING of the ethnic sounding NAME says it all really. Shit is gross as fuck and shame on SA Labor for stooping so gutlessly low.
 

Mondy

Banned
I wouldn't have even bothered if I were Marcia. Someone able to convince themselves that indigenous Australians bargain from a political position of strength is just dead to reality.

I saw that bloke ask that question and typically, it fits his form that it won't be long before he's dead period.

The constant EMBOLDENING of the ethnic sounding NAME says it all really. Shit is gross as fuck and shame on SA Labor for stooping so gutlessly low.

Is that a symptom of SA Labor or the result of the electorate they know they have to try and appeal to.
 

Arksy

Member
You know, as much as I find it disgusting that SA Labor would stoop that low, it kind of helps our vote that they'd not only put this out, but vigorously defend it.
 

lexi

Banned
You know, as much as I find it disgusting that SA Labor would stoop that low, it kind of helps our vote that they'd not only put this out, but vigorously defend it.

It's only racism when it's hurtful to a white person evidently.
 

Arksy

Member
Well her mother is Canadian and her father is Lebanese, she is definitely white but so are most Lebanese people.

Also some context, her electorate is one the Liberals think they can win so they've poured a lot of resources into her campaign. She's a great candidate and people seem genuinely receptive to her when on the campaign trail. The seat is currently held by long time Labor stalwart Patrick Conlon, the outgoing Transport Minister (not re-contesting). He won with the slimmest of margins last election.

Also the poster posted above in my opinion is much, much better than the other one they circulated.

7d52e609-3bf2-4fbd-970d-416df503ed18-460x276.png
 

bomma_man

Member
Trying to work out intra-party voting is painful. The candidates' individual websites are worse than useless. Anyone know of a good guide?
 
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