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[Regginator]

My mom's bestfriend is a Chinese woman who converted a decade ago. She's estranged from her Christian family and chooses to wear a burqa. No one's forcing her to wear it, certainly not my mom who only wears a hijab (as do most 70-80% of the women in Malaysia, the others don't cover their hair at all).

So yes, it can be a choice.

I agree. It's the mother of irony if you think about it. Accusing them of being oppressed and that it isn't their choice, while at the same time oppressing them by implying Muslim women can't make their own choice (wearing hijabs/niqaabs, etc.)

 

[tanooki27]

if I wanted to walk through town with a sheet over myself, would I be breaking a law? what makes a burqa a burqa?

I am not a Muslim, nor a woman - so would I be able to wear the burqa, since on me the garment's symbolism is muted?

 

[CrunchyB]

"We can't ban spousal abuse or we will provoke Islamic extremists"

That's some shitty argument right there.

 

[RustyNails]

You're just asked if someone was fine with a Burka that still shows their faces. That's not a burka.

It is a Burqa. Burqa is just a cloak. Burqa+Niqab+Hijab that comes in one piece is a Chador.

 

[Gutek]

It is a Burqa. Burqa is just a cloak. Burqa+Niqab+Hijab that comes in one piece is a Chador.

It doesn't matter. Again, when I google this stuff, it gives me the literal opposite of what you're telling me. Just be assured that this law only targets the full face veil. However the fuck you wanna call it.

 

[la_briola]

Hmm, weird. Here are some other examples, nothing that screams "oppressed":

Seems fine.

 

[Metrotab]

It is a Burqa. Burqa is just a cloak. Burqa+Niqab+Hijab that comes in one piece is a Chador.

Your terminology is obviously not the one used by Europeans in this discussion. That's fine, but it means what you refer to as a burqa is obviously very different from what we're talking about.

 

[RustyNails]

It doesn't matter. Again, when I google this stuff, if gives me the literal opposite of what you're telling me. Just be assured that this law only targets the full face veil. However the fuck you wanna call it.

Of course it doesnt matter because you're proven wrong. It only matters when you're proven right.

 

[azyless]

It is a Burqa. Burqa is just a cloak. Burqa+Niqab+Hijab that comes in one piece is a Chador.

You've got Burqa and Chador mixed up I believe. At least here what people call a chador doesn't cover the face, and wikipedia seems to agree.

 

[SlimySnake]

It is a Burqa. Burqa is just a cloak. Burqa+Niqab+Hijab that comes in one piece is a Chador.

Sorry Rusty. What's your argument exactly? Are you against this ban because they arent using the right terminology?

 

[ClosingADoor]

Of course it doesnt matter because you're proven wrong. It only matters when you're proven right.

What is your point? When we are talking about a burqa, we are talking about this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burqa

 

[Audioboxer]

Your terminology is obviously not the one used by Europeans in this discussion. That's fine, but it means what you refer to as a burqa is obviously very different from what we're talking about.

Pretty much

A burqa (also known as chadri or paranja in Central Asia) is an enveloping outer garment worn by women in some Islamic traditions to cover themselves in public. Originating from Arabic: برقع‎‎, burquʻ or burqaʻ, and Urdu: بُرقع‎, it is also transliterated burkha, bourkha, burka, or burqu' and is pronounced Arabic pronunciation: [ˈbʊrqʊʕ, ˈbʊrqɑʕ].a

The face-veiling portion is usually a rectangular piece of semi-transparent cloth with its top edge attached to a portion of the head-scarf so that the veil hangs down covering the face and can be turned up if the woman wants. In other styles, the niqāb of the veil is attached by one side, and covers the face only below the eyes, allowing the eyes to be seen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burqa

I'd say RN knows exactly what is getting discussed in here but just wants to make people seem like they are asking for non-face coverings to be banned. When no one is.

 

[T.O.P]

Of course it doesnt matter because you're proven wrong. It only matters when you're proven right.

Jeez

 

[la_briola]

Of course it doesnt matter because you're proven wrong. It only matters when you're proven right.

If the only source you can provide is "I'm Muslim and my mother wears one", we can not take your word for it.

 

[Pusherman]

It's very hard to arrest loverboys since the victims usually don't testify against them as it was their choice to be with set loverboy.

Know where I'm going with this line of reasoning?

If you're Dutch and are referring to loverboys as in the hype about mostly foreign men seducing young white girls into prostitution you should know that was mostly a myth. It's got little bearing on this but just wanted to let you know.

Anyway, you must know that there's a lot of disagreement in feminist circles about sex work. I happen to believe women can in fact decide for themselves to have sex, strip or do any other thing related to sexual behavior in exchange for money. So I would never support the wholesale criminalization of sex work. That doesn't mean that I don't understand that human trafficking exists and that some women are indeed forced and that even the non-forced women could be seen as a part of a misogynistic culture that reduces women to sex objects. However, I still believe women can and should be able to choose to work as escorts and strippers and cam girls and pornstars.

Hey, look at that. Your analogy to sex work helped demonstrate why a ban on the face-veil is wrong. How about that.

There's also examples of ex-muslim women who oppose the veil.

We've had this exact same exchange earlier in the thread. Why does the opinion of someone that doesn't wear the face-veil have any bearing on the beliefs and opinions on women that do wear it. I'm an ex-muslim and if I were a woman I wouldn't wear the hijab because I see it as an enforcement of female modesty that originated from a patriarchal and misogynist culture. I'd also not get plastic surgery for similar reasons. That doesn't mean I have any say in what others should get to wear or do.

 

[Garuroh]

My mom's bestfriend is a Chinese woman who converted a decade ago. She's estranged from her Christian family and chooses to wear a burqa. No one's forcing her to wear it, certainly not my mom who only wears a hijab (as do 70-80% of muslim women in Malaysia, the others don't cover their hair at all).

So yes, it can be a choice.

Aren't christians persecuted in Malaysia? because I can we someone would convert...

 

[Milly Osworth]

You're not allowed to cover your face. So just because you believe some old fairytale you still should not be allowed to cover your face. Makes sense to me.

Question for the "offended" people: if religion said you have to walk around naked, but the law is against public nudity, should religious people be able to walk around naked in the streets?

 

[Lego Boss]

I really don't like it, but banning it sounds stupid. It is like banning long hair just because someone doesn't like it.

It's not really the same thing given how loaded the burqa is.

 

[ant_]

What is with this mentality that people who immigrate to a new country MUST assimilate to that countries standards and culture and leave their shit behind or get out? The hell is that?

That's how integration works. To deny that some level of integration / assimilation is necessary for immigrants is ridiculous. It doesn't mean they have to rid themselves of their homeland or traditions. A common set of values is important for many cultures to live together.

 

[mnz]

Of course it doesnt matter because you're proven wrong. It only matters when you're proven right.

You should have an easy time finding a source for your argument.

 

[VDenter]

Considering women are forced to cover up their faces completely their whole lives in public. Yeah sorry that is not a choice that is oppression by pure definition. Pretty sure banning this was the right move i am not convinced at all that all people wear this by choice.

 

[RustyNails]

You've got Burqa and Chador mixed up I believe. At least here what people call a chador doesn't cover the face, and wikipedia seems to agree.

Sorry Rusty. What's your argument exactly? Are you against this ban because they arent using the right terminology?

I am arguing against Burqa ban: the cloak worn by women. Burqa does not necessarily mean the head covering. Just go online and shop for Burqa styles and you will see what I mean. These are all Burqas: https://m.snapdeal.com/products/women-apparel-burqas/

Head dress is Hijab or Hijab+Niqab.

 

[sirap]

Aren't christians persecuted in Malaysia? because I can we someone would convert...

Wut? 1/3 of my Malaysian relatives are Christians. There are plenty of Christians living in Malaysia.

 

[darkistheway]

Of course it doesnt matter because you're proven wrong. It only matters when you're proven right.

Please stop. Multiple people have posted information that shows the common usage of the word "burqa" is in reference to the full-page veil.

 

[Whales]

I agree. It's the mother of irony if you think about it. Accusing them of being oppressed and that it isn't their choice, while at the same time oppressing them by implying Muslim women can't make their own choice (wearing hijabs/niqaabs, etc.)

A lot of people here just assume that every women who wear a niqab/burka are being oppressed and forced to, even when there are a bunch of posts (and muslin women) proving otherwise

Here's a story: the other day I was in the bus. There was a woman wearing a niqab ( you could see her eyes only) sitting close to me in the bus. At one stop, a white dude gets up, looks at her, and starts insulting her. '' Fucking terrorist, why the fuck are you wearing this, you should remove this crap''. He then procceeds to gtfo the bus asap. This was a woman that was sitting in the bus like anyone else, minding her own business. a few of us went to see her and ask if she was okay, her reaction was basically '' I don't understand why he would say mean stuff like this to me, I didn't do anything...''


Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if a bunch of members here believe that a lot of women wear the hijab by force too

you shouldn't decide ( in this case, actually force by law) what a women decides to wear. Simple as that

By the way, i'm not a fan at all of the full face veil. But if some people want to wear it... Who are you to stop them?

 

[Metrotab]

If you're Dutch and are referring to loverboys as in the hype about mostly foreign men seducing young white girls into prostitution you should know that was mostly a myth. It's got little bearing on this but just wanted to let you know.

Anyway, you must know that there's a lot of disagreement in feminist circles about sex work. I happen to believe women can in fact decide for themselves to have sex, strip or do any other thing related to sexual behavior in exchange for money. So I would never support the wholesale criminalization of sex work. That doesn't mean that I don't understand that human trafficking exists and that some women are indeed forced and that even the non-forced women could be seen as a part of a misogynistic culture that reduces women to sex objects. However, I still believe women can and should be able to choose to work as escorts and strippers and cam girls and pornstars.

Hey, look at that. Your analogy to sex work helped demonstrate why a ban on the face-veil is wrong. How about that.

Sex work is a widespread phenomenon throughout all societies in perpetuity. Much more effective to regulate it.

The burqa isn't, and is a very specific cultural practice that can be curtailed, just like female genital mutilation.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

This is also a Burqa WITH Hijab

This is also a Burqa WITHOUT hijab

Under the law, both styles will be outlawed.

Uh, no.

This is what is affected by the ban:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burqa

See: all the photos in the article

I don't get to speak for other people. You don't get to speak for other people.

If the basis for your argument is that you know what is going through other peoples mind then you have no argument.

http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-fr...ieux-pari-des-ambassadrices-de-la-laicite.php

«Depuis que la loi est passée, certaines femmes ont porté plainte contre leur mari, d'autres espèrent qu'elles auront à payer plein d'amendes pour port du niqab, comme ça leur mari leur dira de l'enlever, et d'autres enfin, ont carrément décidé de retirer leur voile : on est sur la bonne voie !»

Translation: "Since the law passed, some women filed complaints against their husbands, others hope they will have to pay tons of fines, that way their husband will tell them to take it off, and others yet have simply decided to take it off: things are looking up!"

I've given you proof that it's backfired. You have any proof that it'll work?

You've given no proof, just anecdotes and opinions. So I'm giving you counter-anecdotes.

 

[Gutek]

I am arguing against Burqa ban: the cloak worn by women. Burqa does not necessarily mean the head covering. Just go online and shop for Burqa styles and you will see what I mean. These are all Burqas: https://m.snapdeal.com/products/women-apparel-burqas/

Head dress is Hijab or Hijab+Niqab.

This is not a Burqa ban. Or, at least, not a ban on what you think a Burqa is. It bans full face veils.

 

[Audioboxer]

You're not allowed to cover your face. So just because you believe some old fairytale you still should not be allowed to cover your face. Makes sense to me.

Question for the "offended" people: if religion said you have to walk around naked, but the law is against public nudity, should religious people be able to walk around naked in the streets?

The Koran doesn't state you have to cover your face which is what makes things even more ridiculous when some say it's religion that asks for it. It's a man-made demand, which has its roots in sheer oppression and the likes of ISIS.

 

[azyless]

I am arguing against Burqa ban: the cloak worn by women. Burqa does not necessarily mean the head covering. Just go online and shop for Burqa styles and you will see what I mean. These are all Burqas: https://m.snapdeal.com/products/women-apparel-burqas/

Head dress is Hijab or Hijab+Niqab.

Well I've got good news for you since no one is banning stuff like this :

It's face covering that is the issue.

 

[RustyNails]

This is not a Burqa ban. Or, at least, not a ban on what you think a Burqa is. It bans full face veils.

Well I've got good news for you since no one is banning stuff like this :

It's face covering that is the issue.

So its a Niqab ban then.

 

[Pusherman]

Sex work is a widespread phenomenon throughout all societies in perpetuity. Much more effective to regulate it.

The burqa isn't, and is a very specific cultural practice that can be curtailed, just like female genital mutilation.

So you don't actually respect the decisions of sex workers but just think it's too hard to enforce a ban on it? I don't think many people would agree with that. I have no reason to doubt that there are escorts, porn stars, cam girls and strippers who enjoy their work and chose freely to do it.

And again, female genital mutilation is done on children. That's the reason we should and do ban it. We still allow adult women to get elective surgery done on their genitals for aesthetic reasons. It's the fact that's it's done on children that's the primary reason we don't allow it. The fact that it's harmful and reduces pleasure for the woman is secondary because certain elective surgeries can also be harmful but are still allowed.

The Koran doesn't state you have to cover your face which is what makes things even more ridiculous when some say it's religion that asks for it. It's a man-made demand, which has its roots in sheer oppression and the likes of ISIS.

This has nothing to do with ISIS, jesus. And religion is man-made to begin with so who cares if it's not a mainstream interpretation of the Quran or not. These women belief it a part of their religion and that's what should count. As long as they decide to wear it out of their own volition we shouldn't stop them.

 

[JordanN]

Why is it so important for a person to completely obscure their face from the rest of the world? This isn't like some hospital mask that saves you from catching illnesses or a hockey mask that shields your face.

It just screams dysfunctional. Now, I don't care if someone wears it in their own house or place of worship, but out in public, it's anti-social.

 

[Gutek]

So its a Niqab ban then.

Whatever you say, Hoss.

 

[Garuroh]

Wut? 1/3 of my Malaysian relatives are Christians. There are plenty of Christians living in Malaysia.

Malaysia banned christians from saying "Allah" which is fucking stupid.

 

[Audioboxer]

So you don't actually respect the decisions of sex workers but just think it's too hard to enforce a ban on it? I don't think many people would agree with that. I have not reason to doubt that there are escorts, porn stars, cam girls and strippers who enjoy their work and chose freely to do it.

And again, female genital mutilation is done on children. That's the reason we should and do ban it. We still allow adult women to get elective surgery done on their genitals for aesthetic reasons. It's the fact that's it's done on children that's the primary reason we don't allow it. The fact that it's harmful and reduces pleasure for the woman is secondary because certain elective surgeries can also be harmful but are still allowed.



This has nothing to do with ISIS, jesus. And religion is man-made to begin with so who cares if it's not a mainstream interpretation of the Quran or not. These women belief it a part of their religion and that's what should count. As long as they decide to wear it out of their own volition we shouldn't stop them.

Yes it does, I have posted this already in here

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...eing-freed-from-isis-manbij-sdf-a7173671.html

Syrian women have been filmed burning the burqas Isis forced them to wear in a celebration of the militants being driven out.

”Damn this stupid invention that they made us wear," one woman said as she set light to the black garment. ”We're humans, we have our freedom."

The video released by the Kurdish Anha news agency, crowd of women and children cheered as the fabric went up in flames in the city of Manbij.

Isis forces women to wear the burqa, which covers the entire body apart from the eyes, as part of its interpretation of Sharia law.

The terrorist group has founded groups of ”morality police" who brutally enforce the dress code and other restrictions inflicted on women, who are forbidden from leaving the home without a male guardian.

As military operations in Iraq and Syria drive Isis back from the swathes of territory it seized during a rapid advance in 2014, several similar celebrations have been seen.

In June, 19-year-old Souad Hamidi marked her liberation by tearing off her black veil and replacing it with a red headscarf.

Maybe if some of you cared about the likes of the women above you wouldn't be arguing so much in favour of something that has been used to oppress others.

 

[Messofanego]

You're not allowed to cover your face. So just because you believe some old fairytale you still should not be allowed to cover your face. Makes sense to me.

Question for the "offended" people: if religion said you have to walk around naked, but the law is against public nudity, should religious people be able to walk around naked in the streets?

Burqa doesn't have anything to do with the Quran, it's just a cultural thing among some muslims in certain communities. Hijab is the one that's taken from "some old fairytale" to cover the hair.

 

[Soph]

Snip.

To reiterate: I am opposed to this ban.

I used loverboys as an argument why even though people can state they are doing something because they choose to, that is not always the case.

 

[la_briola]

The Koran doesn't state you have to cover your face which is what makes things even more ridiculous when some say it's religion that asks for it. It's a man-made demand, which has its roots in sheer oppression and the likes of ISIS.

Which religion is not?

Spoiler

I did understand what you mean tbh.

 

[sirap]

Malaysia banned christians from saying "Allah" which is fucking stupid.

lol. Our government is a joke. The shenanigans you see on the news comes from our (incompetant) politicians blowing hot air, no one takes them seriously. No Malaysian does...just ask any gaffer that lives here. Look beyond the headlines and you'll see that all races and religions coexist in relative peace. We're pretty chill, Malaysia has the gift of 24/7 mamak stalls.

 

[SlimySnake]

I am arguing against Burqa ban: the cloak worn by women. Burqa does not necessarily mean the head covering. Just go online and shop for Burqa styles and you will see what I mean. These are all Burqas: https://m.snapdeal.com/products/women-apparel-burqas/

Head dress is Hijab or Hijab+Niqab.

But they are banning the full-face veil. Who cares what they call it?

From the OP:

Austria’s grand coalition government will ban the full-face veil, Die Welt reported Tuesday.

 

[Metrotab]

So you don't actually respect the decisions of sex workers but just think it's too hard to enforce a ban on it? I don't think many people would agree with that. I have no reason to doubt that there are escorts, porn stars, cam girls and strippers who enjoy their work and chose freely to do it.

And again, female genital mutilation is done on children. That's the reason we should and do ban it. We still allow adult women to get elective surgery done on their genitals for aesthetic reasons. It's the fact that's it's done on children that's the primary reason we don't allow it. The fact that it's harmful and reduces pleasure for the woman is secondary because certain elective surgeries can also be harmful but are still allowed.

I don't think sex work is oppressive by default. Hence, the many feminist authors who are pro-sex work. Hence, the (relative) successes of sex work regulation. There are still some serious dark edges to sex work, and because of what sex work entails, those dark edges are by necessity darker than "excesses" in other industries.

There is nothing liberating about the burqa. It shuts you off from social life, and is clearly a tool used to oppress and denigrate women in society. Banning it is an important symbolic signal that Western liberal democracies are opposed to such oppressive practices.

 

[Pusherman]

Yes it does, I have posted this already in here

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...eing-freed-from-isis-manbij-sdf-a7173671.html





Maybe if some of you cared about the likes of the women above you wouldn't be arguing so much in favour of something that has been used to oppress others.

What the fuck do oppressed women in Syria have to do with muslim women living in the west. I've already responded to that article. Look, me supporting face-veil wearing muslim women in the west says absolutely fuck all about my level of care for women in Syria. I oppose any form of government enforced modesty. As someone from a muslim family I have always opposed the social pressures and double standards some muslim women face.

However, I've now repeatedly shown women that have in fact freely decided to wear a face-veil while living in the west. You don't respect their decision. You don't care about their freedom of expression. Don't try to make me out to be the one that disregards the freedom of women when in fact that's all you. Seriously, get the fuck outta here with that shit dude.

I don't think sex work is oppressive by default. Hence, the many feminist authors who are pro-sex work. Hence, the (relative) successes of sex work regulation. There are still some serious dark edges to sex work, and because of what sex work entails, those dark edges are by necessity darker than "excesses" in other industries.

There is nothing liberating about the burqa. It shuts you off from social life, and is clearly a tool used to oppress and denigrate women in society. Banning it is an important symbolic signal that Western liberal democracies are opposed to such oppressive practices.

I don't care how you feel about the face-veil. I don't even care how I personally feel about the face-veil. What matters to me is that there demonstrably are women living in the west that chose out of their own volition to wear a face-veil. I support those women's freedom to do so.

 

[RustyNails]

But they are banning the full-face veil. Who cares what they call it?

From the OP:

This "who cares" nonsense again. I care. Muslims care. Peoplr who know the difference between the different clothings care. 100s of millions of women wear Burqa. Only a small percentage out of those wear the veil. You dont care because you dont wear any of those.

 

[Audioboxer]

Which religion is not?

Spoiler

I did understand what you mean tbh.

Personally I agree but I'm glad you understand what I mean. It's crucial to point out that even those within the faith are not required to wear the burqa. It's not even about interpretation, it doesn't ask for your face to be covered. Only other body parts and that is where interpretation can come into it.

That's a completely different topic though, it's more theological debating. This is about a government ban on face coverings and pointing out to those discussing religion that is worthwhile to note even the Koran doesn't ask for this.

What the fuck do oppressed women in Syria have to do with muslim women living in the west. I've already responded to that article. Look, me supporting face-veil wearing muslim women in the west says absolutely fuck all about my level of care for women in Syria. I oppose any form of government enforced modesty. As someone from a muslim family I have always opposed the social pressures and double standards some muslim women face.

However, I've now repeatedly shown women that have in fact freely decided to wear a face-veil while living in the west. You don't respect their decision. You don't care about their freedom of expression. Don't try to make me out to be the one that disregards the freedom of women when in fact that's all you. Seriously, get the fuck outta here with that shit dude.

We usually care in the West how things can be perceived globally. Therefore it's worth being mindful of what women fight for elsewhere and see how we can be their allies in our societies. Like it or not as argued many times in this topic already the burqa carries a lot of symbolic weight for all the wrong reasons.

 

[mnz]

This "who cares" nonsense again. I care. Muslims care. Peoplr who know the difference between the different clothings care. 100s of millions of women wear Burqa. Only a small percentage out of those wear the veil. You dont care because you dont wear any of those.

The faceveil will be banned. I don't even think Austria mentions the name of it, that's on the press.

 

[Salty Rice]

If its the full body Burqa where you cant even see the face and exists for putting women down then i can only say good.

 

[Metrotab]

This "who cares" nonsense again. I care. Muslims care. Peoplr who know the difference between the different clothings care. 100s of millions of women wear Burqa. Only a small percentage out of those wear the veil. You dont care because you dont wear any of those.

We get it, apparently we, and the entirety of European political discussions about this topic, are all wrong about what burqa means. We mean the "faceveil-thing", whatever you call it.

 

[Kater]

I don't fully understand the reasons to wear a burqua but outright banning to wear one seems intrusive. I don't want politicians dictating what I can wear and what not. And Kurz is a douche, so him trying to gloat over this victory makes me want to vomit.

 

[Metrotab]

I don't care how you feel about the face-veil. I don't even care how I personally feel about the face-veil. What matters to me is that there demonstrably are women living in the west that chose out of their own volition to wear a face-veil. I support those women's freedom to do so.

And those women support women's oppression by doing so. That they are Muslim women themselves has no bearing on that.