Would you say you've...heard a rumor it has a record number of rumors?
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Batman vs Superman: World's Finest Three-Year Wait
- Thread starter Marion Cobretti
- Start date
- Status
Would you say you've...heard a rumor it has a record number of rumors?
Schweinehund
Member
Having a hard time believing animators aren't under NDA when talking about the film at all.
I should catch up on the Green Lantern TAS. Really enjoying John & Tomasi's run right now, I'm hoping we get Atrocitus and Gardner in the DCEU at some point. It seems like there's almost too many ideas to explore with GL in a film format.
I should catch up on the Green Lantern TAS. Really enjoying John & Tomasi's run right now, I'm hoping we get Atrocitus and Gardner in the DCEU at some point. It seems like there's almost too many ideas to explore with GL in a film format.
broncobuster
Banned
Rumours and speculation are all good fun. I love how fans hyped Batman's EMP gun in The Dark Knight Rises. Ends up in the film for forty seconds.
For reference, this is how the VFX was outsourced in Man of Steel (in VFX Supervisor DJ's own words):
- Weta Krypton, Black Zero in space, Drop Ships in space, Outpost Planet, Kryptonian ship interiors.
- Scanline Oil Rig Rescue, Tornado Scene, X-Ray Vision FX.
- MPC (Initial R&D for flying and fighting, cape R&D) Arctic Sequences (including the Scout Ship reveal and Zods visit), Superman learning to fly, Superman Surrendering (including Edwards AFB first contact), Escape Pod Rescue & Smallville Battle.
- Double Negative Black Zero over Metropolis / World Engine over Indian Ocean, Superman vs. Zod.
- LookFX Bus Rescue Scene, Video Screen composites.
- Teamworks All kinds of fix-it stuff.
Xan Kriegor
Banned
I think you missed the point of the movie and setup for BvS. Clark is very powerful and he can do whatever he wants. The truck scene showed what he's capable of when he's angry and irresponsible. The whole final battle was a setup for bvs. His playground was a human metropolis... should he be among us? Should someone with that destructive power be on the loose?
Schweinehund
Member
didn't know there were so many studios behind it, I can easily see them never touching doomsday because seemingly he only shows up the third act of the movie.
There's nothing supernaturally forgiving about not destroying a guys truck because of a confrontation. This would be equivalent to this situation happening to a normal person, they go outside, and slash the offender's tires or throw a brick through their windshield. If they just walked away you wouldn't go "wow, that person is a really good guy, unlike any other" but you may go "sure, the guy was being awful but he took it too far". There's ways to show Superman being flawed without causing hundreds of thousands in property damage because the guy was being a bit of a dick.
Bringing up Jonathon, those being-a-really-good-person things come from his upbringing, but Jonathon is so confused himself in this movie that Superman never gets the message of right and wrong. People bring up the "maybe" line after the bus and that Jon's a confused and scared father and that line shows it but what is a 9 year old kid supposed to decipher from that? There's a scene in Smallville, a series that, despite its flaws, did The Kents right, where Clark saves Lex's life and Lex rewards him with a new truck, Jonathon will have none of it and tells Clark to give it back. Clark gets annoyed at his dad and this exchange happens.
Jon: I know how much you want it son....but you can't keep it.
Clark: Why not? I saved the guy's life.
J: So you think you deserve a prize?
C:That's not what I meant....look, how about you drive the new one and I drive the old one? Everybody wins.
J: This is not about winning, Clark.
This is episode 1 and one of the first long scenes with Jonathon. That's the type of upbringing he has so he naturally becomes a good person. Because, after all, Superman is a guy that chooses to be a hero. He has no mantle thrust on him, no tragic event that shapes his thinking, he's just a guy that believes in justice and doing the right thing. He gets that from his parents early on and struggles with it later in life. People can be human and flawed and have fits of anger and all that, but there's better ways to show that than what Man of Steel did from the get go with that truck scene.
Speaking of that scene, you wanna talk about how much Jonathon loves Clark and wants to protect him in MoS with that "maybe" line so his identity stays secret, after that Smallville fight Clark sticks his arm in a shredder to show how he's not normal and Jonathon immediately goes to take it out. He knows it's not gonna hurt Clark but his instincts kick in.
Joblo's scoops have been pretty reliable as of late, so I can definitely see this happening.
TheRealTalker
Banned
it will be but the movie filter will be so dark that you wouldn't be able to tell
lame joke is lame
Uh, no, the entire point is that Clark is flawed but his power amplifies normal frustration into a huge abnormal burden. You're basically arguing Clark can be bad, "but not that bad (because I said so!)", and give as a counter-example saving someone's life. Wow. Way to show the spectrum of succumbing to temptation there.
There's no proof either of them know that's what's supposed to happen. Clark surviving the car crash was a surprise to both Clark and Jonathan in that scene. Clark was being an idiot by assuming the trauma of a car crash would be identical to what he might suffer sticking his hand in a chipper. It's melodramatic, but not grounded in rational caution. Jonathan was reasonably surprised, not just instinctually concerned. The same lack-of-information applies to the tornado.
You claim Clark wouldn't get it, but the film shows otherwise. The reason he's frustrated in the station wagon before the tornado is because he understood Jonathan's "maybe" and kept himself under wraps for 4 years to the point of having this talk. You don't cooperate for the forever that is your teenage years, your most rebellious period ever, unless you get the gravity of your Dad's conviction even if you're sick of it. By the same token, they have none of the data that even Smallville Clark had in getting hit by and surviving a car crash. They would have zero information that Clark could easily withstand a literal Force of Nature. So Jonathan would be, and was, instinctually protective of his son as you'd expect.
Even Mark Waid, who hated the end, got that much out of the film: "And I think you’d be surprised to find that I loved everything about Jonathan Kent. I loved his protectiveness, even when it made him sound like an asshole."
unholyrevenger72
Banned
Nah it's a real company that manufactures parts "Rizoma Motorcycle - Innovative Components & Accessories"
http://www.rizoma.com/
or he's a practical effect in a stasis tube for the first 2 acts
....Say what now?
..........Say what now?
.............Say what now?
.........................Say what now?
You twisted a lot of what I said, I'm gonna have to break this down piece by piece.
My point being you can show this in better ways. An easy way to show this and how much Lois is "about the story" is to have her digging into Clark's life, him catching wind of it, asking her to stop, he keep digging, berate him with questions (which would scare him about his secret getting out since his father died to protect that secret) and have him punch a wall or slam his hands into a table breaking it in a fit of quick rage. But that scene has him get frustrated, leave when it was getting physical to protect his secret, look at the truck, and go "I'll teach him a lesson". It shows Clark being petty to me, using his powers to completely screw someone over.
When did I say this? At all? When did I go "it's fine for Clark to be a bit bad as long as I approve"?
That's not what I did, I brought up Jonathon to compare the two Jonathon's and the message they sent Clark, not ruining a guys truck for revenge and ruining a guys car to save his life.
I concede that point, I had forgotten that they really only learned about his durability then. It's still not idiotic on Clarks part considering he just got hit be a car without a single scratch, it was definitely melodramatic though.
No, he was frustrated that his dad was trying to keep him hidden from the World, not that he should do something as drastic as letting a bus full of children die to keep his secret. The dialogue of that scene is about him going out in the World and making a real change but his father doesn't want that so he's rebellious, as you say, with the whole "you're not my real parents" thing. This scene doesn't show that he understood his father's "maybe" speech. My entire thing is about how confused the messages Jonathon instills in Clark are: Protect your secret even if it could cost people their lives, you have to decide the man you'll grow up to be, no we're not your real parents and maybe we're not good enough. It's all so muddled. The scene with the bullies picking on him is a great flashback and how Jonathon tends to be, the tornado scene and bus scene are so against the character. It's confusing as all hell and the last thing you want is a confused super being.
Good on him, this person is not me, I hated this Jonathon Kent for the most part. He says un-Jonathon Kent things and it annoyed me.
MoS Johnathan Kent was way more blunt and direct than he is normally depicted but this characterization made a lot more sense to me than previous versions. This guy raised an alien being that even as a toddler was powerful enough to kill a lot of people if he had a temper tantrum. That easily sounds like one of the most stressful things a new "parent" can possibly go through. The movie shows that Clark as a child was already in control of his heat vision. Something Smallville's Johnathan Kent never had to worry about. That's some scary shit if you ask me.
He deals with that stress for years. He can't tell anyone and there's no precedence for this so there's no information to help him.
Look at Clark as a young teen. He's not violent, he could have lost his temper and pummeled the shit out of every one of those punk kids that yanked him out of the truck (something Clark had to allow to happen, by the way), but instead he squeezed the pole behind him and kept his cool. That's a result of Johnathan and Martha's influence. Clark could have just as easily turned out to be exactly what Batman in BvS fears.
I saw no issue with how the Kent's treated and spoke to Clark as he was growing.
He deals with that stress for years. He can't tell anyone and there's no precedence for this so there's no information to help him.
Look at Clark as a young teen. He's not violent, he could have lost his temper and pummeled the shit out of every one of those punk kids that yanked him out of the truck (something Clark had to allow to happen, by the way), but instead he squeezed the pole behind him and kept his cool. That's a result of Johnathan and Martha's influence. Clark could have just as easily turned out to be exactly what Batman in BvS fears.
I saw no issue with how the Kent's treated and spoke to Clark as he was growing.
Well...
"Superman can be flawed as long as it isn't a way I don't approve of."
"Superman can be flawed as long as long as I approve it."
You're missing the point. You keep looking for a spectrum of sanctity because you're trying to create a proxy for a saint or Jesus or god or whatever. Literally no other superhero character is expected to be so perfect, saintly, or pure because it defies all conventions of good storytelling... and apart from bizarre quasi-religious expectations created by fans, it isn't even true in the comics! I've got 40+ years worth of Superman comics in longboxes. Throw a dart, pull an issue, the chances of that issue reflecting a morally pure, inspiring, aspirational ideal are extremely low that's simply NOT who he is as a character in his own medium and books!
Superman's been around for 77 years and he's been a character- not an ideal- for most of it. Actual ideals change the world in less time. Civil rights. Democracy. Freedom of Speech. If he was this righteous ideal for all that time he would have impacted the world in that way, instead, he's primarily a creative (NOT MORAL) inspiration. Superman's impact and significance was in creating and commercializing the superhero genre and comic book medium. A victim of his own success and required to maintain a degree of consistency to represent the classic, he gets compared to other characters... and that's where this righteous / purity / inspiring narrative was forced to spring from as a justification for why the original was still relevant with all the contemporary characters and their subsequent evolutions. However, it wasn't intrinsic to the character and while it is a valid take on the character it is far from the only legitimate, the longest lasting, or the most appealing take. I'm not denying Space Jesus stories exist, but they're a retroactive justification for making Superman stand out, not how he stood out to begin with.
It's worth addressing and MOS does, but primarily with Jor-El, the guy who didn't trust his own judgment enough to plan to come with Kal-El... it's Jor-El, born from a fascist state, that wants and expects Kal-El to be a god... Jonathan wants him to allowed to be a man... Superman ultimately decides to be neither exclusively and sets his own path as both his fathers would want. People think and criticize the film for telling us Superman is Space Jesus, but that's exactly the point of scenes like smashing the truck and killing Zod. A perfect saint doesn't succumb to temptation or have blood on his hands and the film is saying, "These are the expectations but he's not that perfect god-man."
Crushing a pipe or hitting a wall isn't succumbing to temptation. This is a grounded, normal psychology... not a supernaturally sainted person who has never been allowed to fight back, never been in a physical altercation, never allowed to show his anger in front of others, but still acts saintly. You've hit people. You've raged. You've been allowed to because you couldn't easily kill them or transform the world overnight if you did. Clark has to have your psychology with none of your benefits, but you judge him against the standard of a cartoon where none of that cracks after thirty years of frustration?
That's NEVER been the Superman character. All-Star Superman was allowed to maim Atlas and Samson merely for upsetting his date. Reeve's Superman went back and extracted his revenge on a truck driver. Birthright's Superman held a gun store owner at gunpoint and fired in order to terrorize. From the very beginning, Siegel and Shuster's Superman extracted personal revenge because he's a man with human psychology.
It's insane that you're more ready to sympathize with someone committing sexual assault than take a few seconds to imagine Clark's frustration and what it'd take to get him to crack. As for "ruining" the driver's life... unless that guy is a self-made multimillionaire, he doesn't own his own truck, he has insurance, and the bizarre way it was destroyed exonerates him of being the cause... in total, his punishment is reasonable for his behavior.
The tornado scene proved Clark was on-board because there is literally nothing the Kents could do to stop him if he wasn't. They could only persuade him and agreeing to grow-up first before letting the world know is only possible with his cooperation.
No, Waid's not you... he's only one of the world's foremost authorities on Superman, the person DC trusted and allowed to reboot Superman's origin in 2003. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but his views on Jonathan and Superman are probably going to be weighted more relevant than yours.
Marion Cobretti
Member
Great post.
I think I now like Superman more after reading this post.
bryanee
Member
broncobuster
Banned
Mo-cap man looking like Metamorpho there.
Schweinehund
Member
Watching TDK right now on tv and just saw Batman remotely drive his batmobile on top of two civilian cars in a parking garage, then blow up another civilian car, and then blows up part of the parking garage.
He pretty much ruined 3 peoples lives. That insurance sitcom can't get here soon enough.
edit: and he lands ontop of the car, denting the roof. he could have killed people!
He pretty much ruined 3 peoples lives. That insurance sitcom can't get here soon enough.
edit: and he lands ontop of the car, denting the roof. he could have killed people!
I'm sure they have Wayne Insurance!
Only the best for Gothamites.
So I saw this criticism for Arrow, and think goes for Batman as well.
Why do you think wealthy and well-off people/families continue to live in Gotham knowing that it's a complete hell-hole?
Poodlestrike
Banned
Because it's not. The wealthy do fine, it's everybody else who suffers. Massive wealth inequality. Basically no middle class.
Everybody else commutes in.
Messypandas
Member
Depends on what version you look at. The arkham games? Yeah thats pretty much armed groups on every corner kind of thug town. The Nolans films just made me think every system from top to bottom was rigged in the bourgeoisie favour and the underclass suffered... so pretty much the real world. Terroist attacks seemed infrequent enough to not be move worthy.
Schweinehund
Member
I enjoyed that by the time TDKR rolled around Gotham had shown improvement due to the Dent act. Obviously this won't happen in comics because of quotas but I've never really bought into the "eternal battle". I liked how Golden Age Batman's story ended with him settling down with Catwoman and becoming Commissioner, finding happiness but still combating crime in his own way.
Given Batman's age in this movie I hope Gotham is mostly free of crime waves. We're talking about a Batman that is hanging with the justice league, his city shouldn't be in such bad shape that it wouldn't make sense for him to be in the League. It would be a great plot point if they could have him build up a supporting cast to help him clean Gotham while he's out with the league.
Given Batman's age in this movie I hope Gotham is mostly free of crime waves. We're talking about a Batman that is hanging with the justice league, his city shouldn't be in such bad shape that it wouldn't make sense for him to be in the League. It would be a great plot point if they could have him build up a supporting cast to help him clean Gotham while he's out with the league.
unholyrevenger72
Banned
From the interviews it seems like Gotham is the Oakland to Metropolis' San Francisco
L
Lord Virgin
Unconfirmed Member
Damn, great post.
Also: ^Cavill is hot as fuck.
Also: ^Cavill is hot as fuck.
Apologies for the late reply, work has been killing me.
That quote in and of itself is misconstrued as it moves from "being bad" to "being flawed". In that line I don't talk about Supes being bad but being flawed/human, not keeping emotions in check or lashing out can be a very human thing without doing a ton of damage. In that instance Superman walks away and makes a decision to screw that guy over as opposed to losing control in the heat of the moment. It makes him look extremely petty and abusing his powers. My thing with Lois was just an example but there are tons of ways to do it than that truck scene. So, again, it's not "he can be bad as long as it's done my way" but "he can be flawed without pettily causing a ton of damage". They could've done something in a way that I wouldn't have done but still would've been fine with, that scene is irksome especially for a guy fighting to keep a secret.
No, that's not what I'm doing at all. How can I be accused of doing that and accused of saying "he can be flawed as long as I say so"? I can't be wanting a saint proxy AND a (acceptable to me) flawed hero. I don't want a perfect Superman because he ISN'T perfect, I want a Superman that doesn't abuse his powers because of a confrontation that he's on the "losing" side of. I hated it in Superman II when he went back to that bar and taught that guy a lesson and I hated it here.
Well said, but, again, what I want is not Space Jesus.
As I already said, I hated that. Wasn't Birthright a non-canon story that became canon later? I never had an inclination to read it so I couldn't tell you. From the sound of it though it's not him using powers in a fit of revenge but you'd know more than me. Again, there's a difference between being human/flawed and being petty. In the Emperor Joker story he gets really mad at Ignition after he talks about Lois and loses control and attacks him with murderous intent before stopping himself. This shows him being human, getting angry at the mention of Lois and lashing out. I like flawed Superman, I don't like petty Superman.
There is indeed a LOT of Jesus allegories but isn't the contrast shown in film in less heavy handed methods with him struggling whether to turn himself over to Zod whereas SJ would just sacrifice himself for the people? This is a confused Superman that doesn't have all the answers and doesn't know which direction he wants to go while still knowing he wants to do good, this is all showcased without the truck scene. It's funny how Superman has gotten this "perfect God-Man" tag when even the Christopher Reeves Superman was imperfect.
It's a quick instance of losing himself, which is something every human has had. Rarely will a 30+ year old will do something petty after a confrontation (refer to my "brick through a windshield" analogy) but losing control in a moment is something we can all understand. People keep thinking I wanted him to turn the other cheek at every instance of confrontation but that's not what I want at all, I don't want him abusing his powers for some petty revenge. He's using power that few others have to screw over someone that was a dick to him. He did it simply because he can. So it's fine for him to vent his anger by doing a few hundred thousand in damages because he can't punch someone? He is frustrated in that scene but pushes open the bar door without having it explode off the hinges so he's still in control of his strength even with all that happens. He then goes outside and impales the guy's truck. This is more realistic than him breaking the door? I don't see it.
Now I'm SYMPATHIZING with the jerk? No, I'm reprimanding that Superman for being petty. It's the company that's gonna be paying all that money and probably the owner of the restaurant to fix his parking lot. I'm NOT going "think of the trucker, Superman was wrong", I'm going "Superman abused his powers in a petty way, I don't like it". I have had a bunch of words put in my mouth: I want a perfect hero, I want a flawed hero as long as I approve, I sympathize with the trucker. His punishment is reasonable? Seriously? A reasonable punishment for sexual harassment and being a dick is his company's truck skewered by logs. I reasonable punishment would be a punch in the mouth, but, since he can't do that, it's fine to destroy his truck instead.
On board is different from understanding the "maybe" undertones. It could also be respecting his father's wishes/ideology. There's a lot you can draw from that, there's a lot to assume.
Oh, absolutely. Who am I? Merely some schmuck Superman fan. Grant Morrison talks about how he didn't like the killing of Zod because Superman shouldn't do that but he understands people wanting it. There's prevelant people that enjoyed and didn't enjoy various aspects of the film but nothing they say sways the opinion I form.
That quote in and of itself is misconstrued as it moves from "being bad" to "being flawed". In that line I don't talk about Supes being bad but being flawed/human, not keeping emotions in check or lashing out can be a very human thing without doing a ton of damage. In that instance Superman walks away and makes a decision to screw that guy over as opposed to losing control in the heat of the moment. It makes him look extremely petty and abusing his powers. My thing with Lois was just an example but there are tons of ways to do it than that truck scene. So, again, it's not "he can be bad as long as it's done my way" but "he can be flawed without pettily causing a ton of damage". They could've done something in a way that I wouldn't have done but still would've been fine with, that scene is irksome especially for a guy fighting to keep a secret.
No, that's not what I'm doing at all. How can I be accused of doing that and accused of saying "he can be flawed as long as I say so"? I can't be wanting a saint proxy AND a (acceptable to me) flawed hero. I don't want a perfect Superman because he ISN'T perfect, I want a Superman that doesn't abuse his powers because of a confrontation that he's on the "losing" side of. I hated it in Superman II when he went back to that bar and taught that guy a lesson and I hated it here.
Well said, but, again, what I want is not Space Jesus.
As I already said, I hated that. Wasn't Birthright a non-canon story that became canon later? I never had an inclination to read it so I couldn't tell you. From the sound of it though it's not him using powers in a fit of revenge but you'd know more than me. Again, there's a difference between being human/flawed and being petty. In the Emperor Joker story he gets really mad at Ignition after he talks about Lois and loses control and attacks him with murderous intent before stopping himself. This shows him being human, getting angry at the mention of Lois and lashing out. I like flawed Superman, I don't like petty Superman.
There is indeed a LOT of Jesus allegories but isn't the contrast shown in film in less heavy handed methods with him struggling whether to turn himself over to Zod whereas SJ would just sacrifice himself for the people? This is a confused Superman that doesn't have all the answers and doesn't know which direction he wants to go while still knowing he wants to do good, this is all showcased without the truck scene. It's funny how Superman has gotten this "perfect God-Man" tag when even the Christopher Reeves Superman was imperfect.
It's a quick instance of losing himself, which is something every human has had. Rarely will a 30+ year old will do something petty after a confrontation (refer to my "brick through a windshield" analogy) but losing control in a moment is something we can all understand. People keep thinking I wanted him to turn the other cheek at every instance of confrontation but that's not what I want at all, I don't want him abusing his powers for some petty revenge. He's using power that few others have to screw over someone that was a dick to him. He did it simply because he can. So it's fine for him to vent his anger by doing a few hundred thousand in damages because he can't punch someone? He is frustrated in that scene but pushes open the bar door without having it explode off the hinges so he's still in control of his strength even with all that happens. He then goes outside and impales the guy's truck. This is more realistic than him breaking the door? I don't see it.
Now I'm SYMPATHIZING with the jerk? No, I'm reprimanding that Superman for being petty. It's the company that's gonna be paying all that money and probably the owner of the restaurant to fix his parking lot. I'm NOT going "think of the trucker, Superman was wrong", I'm going "Superman abused his powers in a petty way, I don't like it". I have had a bunch of words put in my mouth: I want a perfect hero, I want a flawed hero as long as I approve, I sympathize with the trucker. His punishment is reasonable? Seriously? A reasonable punishment for sexual harassment and being a dick is his company's truck skewered by logs. I reasonable punishment would be a punch in the mouth, but, since he can't do that, it's fine to destroy his truck instead.
On board is different from understanding the "maybe" undertones. It could also be respecting his father's wishes/ideology. There's a lot you can draw from that, there's a lot to assume.
Oh, absolutely. Who am I? Merely some schmuck Superman fan. Grant Morrison talks about how he didn't like the killing of Zod because Superman shouldn't do that but he understands people wanting it. There's prevelant people that enjoyed and didn't enjoy various aspects of the film but nothing they say sways the opinion I form.
Signed up! I wonder what it is.
L
Lord Virgin
Unconfirmed Member
You guys are crazy, I don't trust this Lex guy.
Schweinehund
Member
I'd do it
He seems like a stand up guy. And that Lex Corp benefits package is solid, from what I hear.
Lex offered up free Wi-Fi and portable phone chargers at NYCC
I'm all for the guy now!
#LexOSforTheMasses
broncobuster
Banned
Lex is Ted Kord if he were young, lame, and spoiled.
Welp. That says more than 10000 words. Bye bye Doomsday, hello OMAC.Probably old news, but just realized that Ray Fisher (Cyborg) deleted his Twitter and Instagram account.
No more #Borglife
Speaking of, seems like the Special FX dude deleted his account as well.
GringoSuave89
Banned
Anywhere else independently report on it? Eh Maybe isn't known for shooter...
I haven't seen anything else, but on twitter people are saying Snyder tweeted on the 17 saying a new trailer is coming next week then quickly deleted the tweet. It comes off as incredibly fake though.
L
Lord Virgin
Unconfirmed Member
Messypandas
Member
Probably old news, but just realized that Ray Fisher (Cyborg) deleted his Twitter and Instagram account.
No more #Borglife
Speaking of, seems like the Special FX dude deleted his account as well.
RIP. Any reason as to why? (Fisher)
You're going to side with an alien and not one of your own?!
Schweinehund
Member
I don't need a new trailer so soon, they should just let it ride until Star Wars premiere.
If they want to show stuff, give us some concept art of the league's suits or something. Harley, Joker & Aquaman's reveals made some splashes. I want to see Flash at some point.
If they want to show stuff, give us some concept art of the league's suits or something. Harley, Joker & Aquaman's reveals made some splashes. I want to see Flash at some point.
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