So saying he has a problem with gay intimacy is a bit disingenuous. You might as well say "Billy Crystal has a problem with intimacy on television."
But I guess that wouldn't get a thread to 6 pages.
Billy Crystal on Gay Characters on TV: "Dont abuse it and shove it in our face."
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So saying he has a problem with gay intimacy is a bit disingenuous. You might as well say "Billy Crystal has a problem with intimacy on television."
But I guess that wouldn't get a thread to 6 pages.
Gentleman Jack
Member
That doesn't make his comments less problematic, since he draws a line between gay intimacy done 'as a cause' and that which isn't based purely on some fuzzy 'in my face' standard. Straight sex isn't on TV to promote some agenda according to his remarks. What is it about gay intimacy that lets such compartmentalization fly with Crystal?
Cool.
I don't watch TV anymore, and the TV shows I do catch tend not to be dreck, so I couldn't tell you. I was just pointing out where the line between "A character that is gay" and "The Gay Character" is in my mind.
Red Liquorice
Member
Maybe he shouldn't have made the distinction in the first place and just raised his general distain of all sexual intimacy on screen.
MHWilliams
Member
I've already said this multiple times. You're the one trying to work the "cause" angle.
Calamari41
41 > 38
Wasn't he asked about it specifically though?
Union Carbine
Member
Nah. I'd go Rawls and Omar from The Wire.
Let me give you two examples:
1) Six Feet Under, which featured numerous episodes with scenes of intimacy between a gay couple but didn't use those scenes to promote the show.
2) Modern Family, for which there was an internet campaign to "let" the gay couple kiss.
Can you guess which one is a "cause"?
D
Deleted member 47027
Unconfirmed Member
Completely agree!
It shouldn't be shoved in viewers faces as in the character says "OMG I'm so gay!!~~~<3". Characters also shouldn't say "I'm totally straight bro" (now that I type that it seems even more gay than the first example actually, lol). Rarely should anything be in the viewer's face, artistically speaking.
Homosexuality is obviously an everyday thing though that should receive thorough representation in media.
Homosexuality is obviously an everyday thing though that should receive thorough representation in media.
That's how most everyone sees it, unfortunately. It's so disappointing and sad how we get 'othered' so often.
He doesn't seem to like seeing intimacy to begin with. By defining gay intimacy as being a cause when it is too much for him, but straight intimacy just being "explicit" or whatever creates a rift. I think that's what ticks people off. It is accepted in society that normal intimacy is just something that people want to see. It's never a "cause", because at worst it's just pandering to horny (straight) audiences. But if we flip it around, it becomes controversial because "they're shoving the gay agenda in our faces" or whatever. That mentality can be problematic.
I feel that the case against explicit content done just for kicks and shock value can be made without pigeonholing it as an gay or straight issue. HBO's rule for having a nudity quota for their shows definitely hurts certain productions when you can feel they're forced. So there's really no need to frame it as a gay issue.
That's not a "cause" in the sense, as Billy qualified it, as "you will accept my lifestyle" (which, ick, but still).
Modern Family is the 2nd most popular sitcom on television and had a gay couple that hadn't shown even a moment of intimacy for many season. This, in particular, is what caused people to roll their eyes:
It's okay for a character to be gay, but a character can't be too gay. Or show intimacy or sexuality in any meaningful way. Claire and Phil kiss. Cam and Mitch hug. To Modern Family's credit, they do dive into this later, but only after there was a bit of an eye rolling backlash about it.
It's pretty obvious he doesn't like gay intimacy. Does that make him immature and prudish? Yeah. Homophobic? I don't think so. He's played gay characters before, so he has to have some type of sympathy for gay people.
I think this is basically the same as not wanting to see elderly people have sex ( Honestly who wants to see that shit?), not really being homophobic against gays.
I think this is basically the same as not wanting to see elderly people have sex ( Honestly who wants to see that shit?), not really being homophobic against gays.
Calamari41
41 > 38
I think it's important to remember that he was specifically asked this question with regards to his character in Soap compared to portrayals today. He even went out of his way to use Girls as an example of what he was talking about. It's not like he just started ranting about gay characters or something.
Read the article Duckroll posted and thought this part of the interview was relevant/interesting and didn't see it posted. Bolded I think is the interviewer (thats how it is in the article). Not sure what the "scene" in Girls was (or the controversy) as I don't watch that show.
Why does that matter?
It's a different level of uncomfortableness. We still need to talk about it. Gay people are about to have full marriage rights in America, and most countries in Western Europe. But we still have a problem with gay people being couples. It's okay to admit that and work through it, but it's sort of disingenuous to do what Billy Crystal did. Also, he's Billy Crystal, he's not really relevant.
Caveat: he didn't -- Josh Gad brought up Girls.
Blackstarhat
Member
It plays into the stereotype that lgbt are sexual deviants.
speculawyer
Member
Hai guyz, Billy is not just homophobic, he's racist too. Look at him in blackface!
Never mind that he's a huge Muhammad Ali fan, is close friends with Whoopie Goldberg, etc. Seriously, if you go after Billy Crystal, who was a gay-rights pioneer if anything due to his portrayal of Jodie Dallas, it is going to backfire on you.
Horse Detective
Why the long case?
That might just be where we disagree. See I can't just group those things up that way. From that point I might as well say I don't like watching animals fucking on TV. The more comparisons you make the worse it sounds.
That's just my perspective though.
Darkangel
Member
I think I understand what he means.
It can be challenging to write a homosexual character where their sexuality is embraced without it being their defining trait. You often end up with a character who's either a flamboyant gay caricature, or someone who is simply said to be gay and nothing more.
It's like you need to balance the fact that gay people are difference with the fact that they really aren't that different. I'm not gay myself so I might be a little out of touch, but to what extent is there a universal "gay culture"? There's clearly the whole pride culture but I know a lot of gay people who don't necessarily like to identify with that. Basically what I'm getting at is would it be okay for me to write a straight character and simply edit the story to make him gay, or are there certain aspects of the "gay experience" that would need to be incorporated to make it authentic?
I probably sound like an big ignoramus but I haven't really had the opportunity to discuss this before.
It can be challenging to write a homosexual character where their sexuality is embraced without it being their defining trait. You often end up with a character who's either a flamboyant gay caricature, or someone who is simply said to be gay and nothing more.
It's like you need to balance the fact that gay people are difference with the fact that they really aren't that different. I'm not gay myself so I might be a little out of touch, but to what extent is there a universal "gay culture"? There's clearly the whole pride culture but I know a lot of gay people who don't necessarily like to identify with that. Basically what I'm getting at is would it be okay for me to write a straight character and simply edit the story to make him gay, or are there certain aspects of the "gay experience" that would need to be incorporated to make it authentic?
I probably sound like an big ignoramus but I haven't really had the opportunity to discuss this before.
Hai guyz, Billy is not just homophobic, he's racist too. Look at him in blackface!
Never mind that he's a huge Muhammad Ali fan, is close friends with Whoopie Goldberg, etc. Seriously, if you go after Billy Crystal, who was a gay-rights pioneer if anything due to his portrayal of Jodie Dallas, it is going to backfire on you.
Except a lot of people here are trying to have a deeper discussion about what it means to react to gay couple's intimacy on television and you're being completely dismissive of that.
He said he dislikes seeing any character that exists only as a cause, regardless of sexuality. And he expressed being uncomfortable with any visually explicit sexuality, straight or not. From your quote:
He never states that gay intimacy is implicitly a cause whereas heterosexual intimacy is simply explicit. In fact, he states exactly the opposite. He's talking about two things at the same time: the integrity of a character (why does this character exist, what is the writer trying to accomplish, to say, to do) and sexually explicit material.
Was going to post this. I loved touchwood, but then it seemed that it was being rammed down our throats over and over again. We loved that Jack was bi, but suit, we didn't need to be reminded of it nearly every episode.
speculawyer
Member
I don't believe I've said a word about that discussion.
Yeah, exactly. You're simplifying a discussion with a drive by post that's attempting to be nuanced by saying that there is no way that Billy Crystal could be homophobic because he's a gay rights pioneer. Even if I were to accept that as fact, that's extremely reductive. Like, engage if you want to, but don't do that.
User 73706
Banned
tag tho
ElectricBlanketFire
Member
Hai guyz, Billy is not just homophobic, he's racist too. Look at him in blackface!
Never mind that he's a huge Muhammad Ali fan, is close friends with Whoopie Goldberg, etc. Seriously, if you go after Billy Crystal, who was a gay-rights pioneer if anything due to his portrayal of Jodie Dallas, it is going to backfire on you.
You can debate Crystal's intent but the spoiler text doesn't prove anything.
Hours Left
Member
Did you read the more indepth article? He wasn't referring to stereotypes. He's referring to gay intimacy.
CapNBritain
Member
My immediate reaction to animals having sex on TV would also be of distaste, probably followed by laughter (sorry Horse Detective). Sex/nudity just triggers an automatic arousal or non-arousal response (in me, but probably for others as well). As I said further on in my post, that's just my immediate reaction and obviously the context of the scene can alter how I ultimately feel about it.
because a lot of times, people only take issue with queer characters showing affection, and don't even blink an eye at a hetero couple showing intimacy?
Tesseract
Banned
yeah, the outwardness is a huge turnoff
Gentleman Jack
Member
Not familiar with the campaign you speak of, did it originate from the people who make the show or was it some fan-driven backlash over how the straight couple gets to kiss on TV but not the gay couple?
Billy Crystal seems mostly to talk about portrayal only, not about marketing campaigns one way or the other.
ZombiePlatypus
Member
Characters don't say this because that's already the default, assumed, and expected (even demanded) norm for everyone. I get that the whole gay thing shouldn't be used as a gimmick, but if you're writing a character to explore gay issues, then yeah being queer would naturally be a huge part of what they're all about and what they bring to the show, which is fine.
I've said this in the LGBT thread, but Billy's comments come across really, really inarticulate and awkwardly phrased.
Don't you think using the phrase Youre going to like my lifestyle, is extremely uncomfortable in a discussion about homosexuality? I certainly think it is. I don't think Billy Crystal is someone who is hateful. I don't think he's a bad guy. I just think that the mentality being exhibited by the associations made, which is by no means unusual, is disappointing.
Monocle
Member
This makes sense to me up until the point where I replace the normalization of gay characters with the normalization of black leads, female leads, and ethnically diverse ensemble casts. These things used to be rare and jarring. Anything that breaks the status quo naturally draws attention to itself. It's worth asking whether characters that appear one-dimensional are actually defined by the trait that sets them apart, or whether that trait just stands out in the minds of the audience.
In any case, I believe safe traditional character dynamics have a place in entertainment, as long as they don't dominate it. There should always be space for new situations, new ideas, different kinds of people. Characters and stories that challenge the preconceived notions of the audience and reveal a different side of life can be so much more interesting than normal people being normal.
MHWilliams
Member
Gay people having promiscuous sex makes them deviants?
Shpeshal Nick
aka Collingwood
I kind of understand what he is saying. In a way, but I'm funny with ALL public (even on screen) displays of affection regardless of sexual orientation. This goes for TV too. If it's not necessary to the plot/character development, then I'm not interested in seeing it.
When I see people kiss on the street, I beep my horn to stop them.
When I see people kiss on the street, I beep my horn to stop them.
A character being a person who sleeps around is not being defined by their heterosexuality. They're being defined as a person who sleeps around.
CornBurrito
Member
Then I'm confused as to what people mean when they say "a character whose only defining characteristic is being gay."
Would be nice if someone, anyone, gave a concrete example.
speculawyer
Member
I'm so sorry that I addressed the topic in the subject line instead of participating in a side-track.
ZombiePlatypus
Member
If you look on the other side of the token, I highly, highly doubt having a male character that just sleeps around with other guys is gonna be generally defined as just "a character that sleeping around."
BreezyLimbo
Banned
I can see what he's trying to say. I guess in a nutshell he dislikes the shoehorning of a gay character and their sexuality, and making that their defining character trait. He talks about his role as a gay character and how they worked on his traits, and in doing thay it defined the character in a way that being gay was natural.
Thats just my interpretation of what he was trying to say. Its the difference of making a character whos defining trait is being gay, and making a character who happens to be gay.
Thats just my interpretation of what he was trying to say. Its the difference of making a character whos defining trait is being gay, and making a character who happens to be gay.
But they are flaunting their sexuality. It doesn't seem like a big deal (because it's not), but queer characters get judged for that just because they're queer.
Blargonaut
Banned
This is what I took away from it.
MHWilliams
Member
It's natural for people to react adversely to something they aren't used to seeing, or an idea they're uncomfortable with. While it's more common than it used to be, it's not something that's encountered every day for most people.
Is it really so offensive that a heterosexual person would prefer seeing a hetero couple bang over a homosexual couple doing the same (unless it's two attractive women)?
Right. I get not wanting to see it on television; I personally find both gay and straight depictions of sex or even less explicit acts to be rather off-putting at best. What I find suspicious is how often it comes up exclusively when it involves two gay characters engaged in a much more mild level of affection than straight couples, and the objection to depictions of heterosexual physical affection seem to come up mostly as a sort of, "Oh, yeah, of course that also bothers me" defense to potential accusations of homophobia. Maybe so - it also bothers me sometimes, too - but if it bothered you this whole time, why did you wait until you saw some gay characters on your television to pipe up?
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