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[RustyNails]

And Hamas is a terrorist group, they aren't a legit negotiating partner, end of story. I don't know what kind of stupid reasoning is this: 'They don't accept our existence, they've vowed to destroy us, they've attacked and killed many innocent people, so they clearly are the ones that we should negotiate with, they've earned legitimacy'.

I think you confused Hamas with Israel. Hamas may be a terrorist group, but Israel is a terrorist nation. They don't accept Palestinian's existence, try to destroy them every few years, attacked and killed many innocent people. If I were Hamas I wouldn't negotiate with these terrorists either.

 

[Salty]

If Israel is a "terrorist nation" than every nation that has ever been in an urban war is 10x more so.

Might want to read up on Hama too

You can ask the Bahai, who fled persecution and murder in Iran to live in Israel as well.

 

[RustyNails]

If Israel is a "terrorist nation" than every nation that has ever been in an urban war is 10x more so.

Might want to read up on Hama too

You can ask the Bahai, who fled persecution and murder in Iran to live in Israel as well.

Who's talking about Iran? And please. Israel is not being in a "war" (in traditional sense of the word). It simply drops 50 megaton bombs all over in Gaza and hopes some Hamas officials are killed. That's neither war nor defense. That's mass murder in broad daylight. The only nation in UN that is in violation of hundreds of resolutions.

 

[theignoramus]

Hamas is the elected, governing party of the Gaza Strip, and it won fairly.
"Edward McMillan-Scott, the British Conservative head of the European Parliament's monitoring team described the polls as "extremely professional, in line with international standards, free, transparent and without violence". His colleague, Italian Communist MEP Luisa Morgantini said there was "a very professional attitude, competence and respect for the rules."
(interestingly, the Bush administration spent 2 million dollars in support of the PA during the elections.http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/21/AR2006012101431.html
:lol :lol .American democratic ideals at work once again! One can only imagine the uproar if the ruling government in Israel gave the Republican party millions of dollars of financial support during the elections)


I dont support its methods, but as of now, Hamas is a fact that must be dealt with. I notice you're clinging to the 10 year truce, like it's the only proposal Hamas has offered in the last few years. Hamas has been making peace proposals in line with the international consensus for years. Furthemore, Hamas itself, has stated that it intends to rewrite its charter.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1139395429041

Sheikh Salah Abu Rukbeh, recently elected from the Hamas list to the council of Gaza's Jabalya refugee camp, believes that the charter could ultimately be changed to recognize Israel.

"It will be very easy to change the charter if Israel changes its stance about the Palestinians," he said. "We are ready to change our charter, but is Israel willing to recognize a Palestinian state? Until now it hasn't. The PLO recognized Israel and changed its charter but Israel did not give us anything."

Israel pretends that Hamas "refusal to accept its right to exist" is some sort of huge obstacle to the peace settlement, but 1) In its continued support of a settlement on the 1967 borders, Hamas indicates that it recognizes Israel as fact and 2)Hamas wont recognize Israel moral legitimacy because no senior Israeli politician has ever recognized Palestine on the June 1967 borders.
As for Hamas using a two state settlement as a smokescreen for further attacks, I've already discussed why the idea of a pathetic Palestinian milia attacking the strongest, most well equipped army in the region would be tantamount to suicide.

 

[Salty]

Way to miss the point while presenting another bs fantasy.

I wonder why Hamas was firing rockets from the basement of the Foreign Press building in Gaza?

Hmm??????

Any ideas?

And Olmert offered the Palestinians 98% of what they asked for, hey refused, sorry compromise is the way of the game. "We either get everything or nothing at all" - Abas's own words, so be it.

 

[theignoramus]

If Israel is a "terrorist nation" than every nation that has ever been in an urban war is 10x more so.

Might want to read up on Hama too

You can ask the Bahai, who fled persecution and murder in Iran to live in Israel as well.

He might want to read up on the Goldstone report too.

 

[RustyNails]

Way to miss the point while presenting another bs fantasy.

I wonder why Hamas was firing rockets from the basement of the Foreign Press building in Gaza?

Hmm??????

Any ideas?

Maybe they should come out into the open fields and start firing rockets at Israel in IDF's plain sight. Really, they will be The Smartest Terrorists Ever™!

 

[theignoramus]

Way to miss the point while presenting another bs fantasy.

I wonder why Hamas was firing rockets from the basement of the Foreign Press building in Gaza?

Hmm??????

Any ideas?

which part is a "bs fantasy"
the idea that Israel is some sort of moral authority in all of this?

 

[Salty]

Maybe they should come out into the open fields and start firing rockets at Israel in IDF's plain sight. Really, they will be The Smartest Terrorists Ever™!

So your argument, if I understand this correctly, is that firing rockets from the basement of the Foreign Press association in Gaza is good, because it protects Hamas? Right.

Do you also agree that Hamas fighting in Jeans and T-shirts is good too, as wearing uniforms would make them too visible?

 

[Prine]

I don't understand why Egypt are helping Israel to wreak terror over Gaza. Scared? At least provide those people with aid and equipment they desperately need to survive, rather allow it go through the damn Israelis.

 

[theignoramus]

I don't understand why Egypt are helping Israel to wreak terror over Gaza. Scared?

According to Salty, it's part of the Arab League's larger campaign to destroy Israel.:lol

In the real world, Egypt is continuing to be a cowardly subordinate of the United States. Being subordinate to the United States means being fairly subordinate to Israel and Israel is determined to undermine Hamas by punishing the civilians under Hamas authority.

 

[jorma]

Way to miss the point while presenting another bs fantasy.

I wonder why Hamas was firing rockets from the basement of the Foreign Press building in Gaza?

Hmm??????

Any ideas?

And Olmert offered the Palestinians 98% of what they asked for, hey refused, sorry compromise is the way of the game. "We either get everything or nothing at all" - Abas's own words, so be it.

Palestinians were offered the right to return? Or is that little 'detail' the 2% that is missing?

 

[Salty]

Palestinians were offered the right to return? Or is that little 'detail' the 2% that is missing?

Likely offered the right to return to the future Palestinian state.

Of course, the million Jews who were forcefully expelled from Arab countries will never be compensated in any way. Most people don't even know they ever existed.

 

[RustyNails]

So your argument, if I understand this correctly, is that firing rockets from the basement of the Foreign Press association in Gaza is good, because it protects Hamas? Right.

Do you also agree that Hamas fighting in Jeans and T-shirts is good too, as wearing uniforms would make them too visible?

When Palestinians are denied their homeland, evicted from properties and forced to live in continual harassment, denied a standing army, denied basic food and material supplies, denied basic medical care by border harassment, who are forced to live in 150 square miles of the most densely populated region on earth, and you bomb them to kingdom come every few years, its in your best interest to expect a violent uprising. Sure, disguising as civilians is wrong because it brings other civilians danger. But wearing "Uniforms" (as if they have a standing army) to fight IDF is plain stupid. Why will they single themselves out for the IDF to just kill them? How the heck will they fight the most powerful military in the entire region from the most densely populated region on earth, without a single military vehicle? Give them tanks, airplanes, weapons, equipment and war machinery and heck yeah they will wear uniforms. But whenever this part is mentioned in negotiations, the Israeli leaders throw a giant baby tantrum.

Likely offered the right to return to the future Palestinian state.

Of course, the million Jews who were forcefully expelled from Arab countries will never be compensated in any way. Most people don't even know they ever existed.

So this is just a "payback" huh? You threw out our Jews, now we will throw you Arabs from your homes! Why? Because we are the most moral people on earth.

 

[jorma]

Do you also agree that Hamas fighting in Jeans and T-shirts is good too, as wearing uniforms would make them too visible?

I'm pretty sure Mossad wore no uniforms when carrying out those wet jobs in europe and in the occupied territories. Would be pretty stupid from their perspective, since they'd be in jail or dead if they did.

But that's probably completely different.

 

[jorma]

Likely offered the right to return to the future Palestinian state.

Of course, the million Jews who were forcefully expelled from Arab countries will never be compensated in any way. Most people don't even know they ever existed.

So if i hold a deed to property in Israel proper, i should think "oh but those atrocities that other people commited towards jews over the centuries makes it allright to do the same thing to us", is that what you are suggesting?

 

[MrMysterio]

Holy. Didn't take too long before this thread regressed into a full-on Israel hatefest.

Just look at this shit:

In the real world, Egypt is continuing to be a cowardly subordinate of the United States. Being subordinate to the United States means being fairly subordinate to Israel and Israel is determined to undermine Hamas by punishing the civilians under Hamas authority.

That's a great piece of conspiracy theory in action.
Seems like Israel is pulling all the strings after all, eh, theignoramus?

How did we get from Bin Laden threatening the US to 'Israel is teh t3rr0r state' anyhow?

 

[RustyNails]

I don't understand why Egypt are helping Israel to wreak terror over Gaza. Scared? At least provide those people with aid and equipment they desperately need to survive, rather allow it go through the damn Israelis.

Hosnni Mubarak is the biggest corrupt bastard in all of this. He subverted the democratic process of Egypt and locked the Constitution. Egypt is by far the largest recipient of foreign aid in the region. Its classic carrot and sticks approach. Block the aid to gaza and receive your billion dollar aid, otherwise you're on your own. This corrupt dictator needs to go ASAP.

 

[jorma]

How did we get from Bin Laden threatening the US to 'Israel is a terrorist state' anyhow?

I just think that the west should stop writing carte blanche checks to Israel. Not because Bin Laden says so, but because it would be the right thing to do.

The fact that it would decrease the likelyhood of future muslim terrorism in europe and the US is just bonus.

 

[MrMysterio]

I just think that the west should stop writing carte blanche checks to Israel. Not because Bin Laden says so, but because it would be the right thing to do.

The fact that it would decrease the likelyhood of future muslim terrorism in europe and the US is just bonus.

Okay, first of all, what are 'carte blanche checks to Israel'? Secondly it's nice to hear that you don't want to do something because Bin Laden tells you to do it.

Why would 'muslim terrorism' decrease? Says who? And again: Why?

Edit: Oh! And you edited my quote! I didn't write 'terrorist state', I wrote 'teh t3rr0r state'.

 

[RustyNails]

Holy. Didn't take too long before this thread regressed into a full-on Israel hatefest.

Just look at this shit:

That's a great piece of conspiracy theory in action.
Seems like Israel is pulling all the strings after all, eh, theignoramus?

How did we get from Bin Laden threatening the US to 'Israel is teh t3rr0r state' anyhow?

Well, I don't think criticizing Israel's policies and examining the history is necessarily a "hatefest". It is also kinda related to the thread, as to why Israel is singled out by UBL and why our country continues to support Israel whether they are right or wrong.

 

[Prine]

Okay, first of all, what are 'carte blanche checks to Israel'? Secondly it's nice to hear that you don't want to do something because Bin Laden tells you to do it.

Why would 'muslim terrorism' decrease? Says who? And again: Why?

Edit: Oh! And you edited my quote! I didn't write 'terrorist state', I wrote 'teh t3rr0r state'.

Alot of frustration of stems from the way arabs are being treated and humiliated by Israel, land grabbing, bull dozing, stripping people of their civil rights, generally creating crisis where there is no hope. Which means people have nothing to live for and rather sacrifice themselves by going against the body thats responsible for their misery.

Argument is, people think more rationally when they are not fighting to live. Anger and frustration naturally subsides, which hopefully would mean a revolt against Hamas.

Much of my anger is directed at Egypt though. Why on earth would they continue to make the Palestinian people suffer.

 

[jorma]

Okay, first of all, what are 'carte blanche checks to Israel'? Secondly it's nice to hear that you don't want to do something because Bin Laden tells you to do it.

Why would 'muslim terrorism' decrease? Says who? And again: Why?

Edit: Oh! And you edited my quote! I didn't write 'terrorist state', I wrote 'teh t3rr0r state'.

because the israel vs palestine conflict is the primary root of the islamist beef with the west. Indicated partly in the OP. Deny them this conflict as a tool to reqruit new "talent" and we are much better off.
Unless you subscribe to the "oh they hate us because we have freedom" theory of course. Do you?

I just thought your spelling made you look like you were 12 years old, i was doing you a favour when fixing it. And i'm pretty sure you stealth edited that in there..

 

[Salty]

I would be inclined to believe that if it weren't for the fact that the Arabs declared that they would genocide Israel before it even existed.

 

[jorma]

I would be inclined to believe that if it weren't for the fact that the Arabs declared that they would genocide Israel before it even existed.

Sure you would.

 

[theignoramus]

Holy. Didn't take too long before this thread regressed into a full-on Israel hatefest.

Just look at this shit:

That's a great piece of conspiracy theory in action.
Seems like Israel is pulling all the strings after all, eh, theignoramus?

How did we get from Bin Laden threatening the US to 'Israel is teh t3rr0r state' anyhow?

What conspiracy theory. According to the Goldstone Report, during Operation Cast Lead, Israel destroyed "Gaza's one working flour mill", systematically destroyed chicken coops and destroyed a raw sewage "lagoon" at the "Gaza Water Treatment Plant which unleashed more than 200,000 cubic meters of raw sewage onto nearby farmland" with multiple missile strikes.

"The chicken farms of Mr. Sameh Sawafeary in the Zeitoun neighbourhood south of Gaza City reportedly supplied over 10 per cent of the Gaza egg market. Armoured bulldozers of the Israeli forces systematically flattened the chicken coops, killing all 31,000 chickens inside, and destroyed the plant and material necessary for the business. The Mission concludes that this was a deliberate act of wanton destruction not justified by any military necessity and draws the same legal conclusions as in the case of the destruction of the flour mill. (p. 18)"

It's rather difficult not to conclude that this was done intentionally, to undermine the civilian infrastructure and exacerbate the economic and humanitarian effects of the blockade, a blockade which has blocked malicious weapons of terror like macaroni (http://www.mcclatchydc.com/world/story/62797.html), "wheelchairs, dry food items, and crayons, to stationary, soccer balls, and musical instruments" and basic construction supplies."

 

[Salty]

I'm sure none of those interviewed were pressured with the Hamas head of security watching over the interviews.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/24/world/middleeast/24goldstone.html?pagewanted=2

"The rebuttal will be given to United Nations officials in the coming weeks and its contents will remain under wraps until then. But officers involved in writing the report gave some details.

One concerned the destruction of Gaza’s sole flour mill. The Goldstone report asserts that the Bader flour mill “was hit by an airstrike, possibly by an F-16.” The Israeli investigators say they have photographic proof that this is false, that the mill was accidentally hit by artillery in the course of a firefight with Hamas militiamen.

Virtually no one in Israel, including the leaders of Breaking the Silence and the human rights group B’Tselem, thinks that the Goldstone accusation of an assault on civilians is correct.

“I do not accept the Goldstone conclusion of a systematic attack on civilian infrastructure,” said Yael Stein, research director of B’Tselem.

Ironically, I believe Breaking the Silence, if not B'tselem were quoted in the report as well.


From non Hamas related interviews

http://www.gloria-center.org/meria/2009/12/landes1.html

Compare this with the testimony of Talal Abu Rahmah on January 2, 2009 to CNN: “Now Hamas, they are under cover, all of them they are civilians now, you don’t see any militants around you, even the cars… I don’t know if the car in front of me or in the back of me, if it’s a target or not.”[64] Did the mission explore the news reports that even the police were ordered by Hamas to remove their uniforms, or the admission by Hamas fighters that they had circulated in civilian clothing as a matter of policy, or the footage from Arab news stations of men dressed in civilian clothing firing Qassam rockets at Israel from a tree-lined street in Jabalya?[65]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ab1hCeJ2wc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGv8ylbfatU (Part of a pro-Hamas video originally, they don't even have their Ak-47s strapped on, let alone wearing uniforms, once they're "martyred" they load up in the ambulance and get counted by the doctors as civilians)

 

[nilbog21]

Guys, I've tried reading this thread but it's really mostly people bickering back and forth and I want to know..

What is the U.S. involvement in Israel? Don't laugh

 

[speculawyer]

Guys, I've tried reading this thread but it's really mostly people bickering back and forth and I want to know..

What is the U.S. involvement in Israel? Don't laugh

Israel is practically the 51st state. It receives tons of money in aid (mainly military aid) from the USA. Oh, I know . . . they are all just 'loans'. But the loans are 'forgiven' on a regular basis thus making them just aid.

Support for Israel is pretty much a requirement for national office the USA due to both Jewish and Christian support for Israel.

Since they get such unwavering support, Israel sometimes abuses their power. And despite their problems, Israel is a relative beacon for democracy, tolerance, and free speech in the mid-east.

But considering the neighborhood, that really isn't saying much.

 

[nilbog21]

So wait, who did Jerusalem belong to before WWII? The palestinians? How did they just take over? By force? And who did this? The Americans?

So let me get this straight, at the end of the day all this fighting comes down to a piece of land with religious significance?

lol.

hasn't the war cost America 700 billions dollars? Couldn't we fix the world w/ that sum of money? o _O