Bloomberg Rumor: Xbox 720 unveiling at E3 2013, launching in the same year

Sure, they're putting out games like Steel Battallion, but that's the only Kinect retail title that's looking relatively appealing to the core gamer, but one game really isn't cutting it. Especially as it's third party developed and not looking particularly great.

Ryse is another one, surely, with Fable: The Journey being pretty much an all-audiences game, as all Fables before it. Apart from that, they're publishing two casual Kinect titles that we know of. So which is it, are they publishing too much Kinect stuff or too little? Make up your mind.


However you have to ask, was a Lionhead Kinect game really necessary? They already have enough Kinect titles as it is, so why didn't they let Lionhead do something they wanted to do for the core, even with hybrid Kinect functionality.

The game was pitched by Lionhead, maybe you should ask them.


The same could be said for Crytek's Ryse. Surely an exclusive 'core' game from them would've gone down much better for Microsoft's core audience, Kinect will do fine off the backs of games like Star Wars and Kinect Sports, so why go overkill at targeting it at the core?

Because they want to sell the device to the core, since in the long run they have much more to gain from that, than from selling yet another traditional game. Business 101.
 
Ryse is another one, surely, with Fable: The Journey being pretty much an all-audiences game, as all Fables before it. Apart from that, they're publishing two casual Kinect titles that we know of. So which is it, are they publishing too much Kinect stuff or too little? Make up your mind.

The game was pitched by Lionhead, maybe you should ask them.


Because they want to sell the device to the core, since in the long run they have much more to gain from that, than from selling yet another traditional game. Business 101.

I got a kinect last summer kinda regret it now. But atleast my brother got some good use out of it with forza 4.
Hope ms put kinect on the backburner for next gen atleast 1 or 2 years.
And provide me with 1080p@60fps and some good amount of AF.
 
I know that feel?
And if next gen is 720p again im freaking out of the console part of this industry i wont buy it.


1080p standard mode.

For stereoscopic mode 1920×540 per eye. Film Patterned Retarder (FPR) is emerging as the sterescopic standard in LCD and OLED displays. LG invented it and Panasonic and Sony are going this route with 3d capable displays. It's a passive technology.
 
My guess is that they'll announce the Next-Xbox later on this year after all the major fall releases in their own event akin to the MTV event.
 
1080p standard mode.
We'll see. I would certainly like this, but there's really no guarantee. Particularly since at least some of the consoles (maybe all) will be fairly RAM starved versus PC's. When porting a game from the PC there simply won't be enough memory to include high res textures ... so it makes little sense to use a 1080p framebuffer, vertices, and effects if the underlying textures aren't sufficient to take advantage of it.

In those instances, 720p with (hopefully) decent AA is what we'll likely see.

For stereoscopic mode 1920×540 per eye. Film Patterned Retarder (FPR) is emerging as the sterescopic standard in LCD and OLED displays. LG invented it and Panasonic and Sony are going this route with 3d capable displays. It's a passive technology.
This is not quite correct.

LG didn't really invent FPR ... they're essentially it's first pig promoter on the TV side of things. FPR basically refers to a circular polarization technique. It's possible they may have some specific patents regarding their particular design and process (and they may be licensing it) ... but it's not like they came up circular polarization 3D. Zalman had monitors available years ago that used it, etc. It's also not the only type of polarization for 3D usage, though I'm not sure if anyone else is bothering with linear polarization since it has some major drawbacks. I'd have to look into it a bit more.

It's possible 'FPR' is an LG trademark and its specifics are their IP. I'm just saying the underlying concept is not their own. I'll have to check if anyone else is using other techniques for circular or even linear. It's quite possible no one is bothering though and everyone is just licensing LG's stuff to avoid R&D. So it may really be a semantics debate ... I digress ...







The main thing I wanted to point out - and I'm not sure if you intended this or I'm reading into it - but it seems like you're implying 1920x540 would actually be how the content is rendered. That is not the case, as there are several problems with it.

First off, 540p is a bit of a misnomer in this case. There's a difference between stereo images originally received as, or converted to 1920x1080, which then have interlace filters applied to them before being superimposing, versus receiving a 1920x540 image to an eye. The former is what's typically going on here. The TV itself is receiving 1080p content and then interlacing it for each eye.

Moreover, 1920x540p or 1920x1080i aren't even mandatory 3d game modes of the HDMI specification. Actually the former (1920x540p) is available under mandatory 3d broadcast resolutions ('top and bottom' 3d), but it's only supported at 24fps. 720p60 top and bottom is also available, but that would mean 360p vertical resolution per eye which would be hideous. 1080i is available at 60fps as a mandatory 3d broadcast resolution, but that it using a side by side technique ... which would halve horizontal resolution, and is meant to be re-interlaced (essentially only meant for 24 and 30fps content). For 60fps content, it would yield obvious interlacing artifacts. Moving over to the gaming side of things, rendering an interlaced framebuffer really doesn't make sense to begin with. The cons far outweigh the pros, which is why very few titles have ever used this technique ... even back when memory was more of an issue. So realistically, you can pretty much guarantee that both eyes will always use a progressive framebuffer.


As it stands, the only mandatory HDMI gaming 3d format supported is 720p60 frame-packing. 1080p60 is part of the optional spec, but to my knowledge there aren't any TV's that support it. I recall reading there were going to be some at CES, but I haven't checked if it happened (Silicon Image may not have even fabbed the properly clocked Tx and Rx cards yet). Either way, obviously few would have TV's supporting it over the next few years ... so it makes little sense for a game to support it (before considering how demanding that would be).

The reality is, expect gaming 3D to remain 720p60 FP for most of next gen. Maybe some simply 1080p60 FP titles will eventually launch, but it would very few if any. As for how this works on the LG TV's you mentioned? The TV receives a 720p FP image ... breaks apart the two 720p images (one for each eye) ... upconverts each of them to 1080p ... superimposes them using an interlace filter ... and then displays the image.
 
I completely agree. These Kinect E3 are horrific!

it could be worse...

 
Sounds like a perfect plan for me.

2012 - Buy the WiiU hmm... Second woo console 2012
2013 - Buy the Xbox720 3rd xbox 2013
2014 - Buy the PS4 ps4 2014 all makes sense hehe ;)

A nice spread.

looking very likly but i think Sony will also launch late next year
they cannot afford to sit there and take it :D
 
Do you read posts? I just said we don't know much about it but, FOR THE WII U, they've been talking to 3rd parties directly about what they specifically want involved.

It has nothing to do with the 3DS, so I'm not sure why you brought it up.

Everyone keeps saying we should base PSN on the current state of the Vita. How come we shouldn't base the WiiU on the current state of the 3DS?
 
Everyone keeps saying we should base PSN on the current state of the Vita. How come we shouldn't base the WiiU on the current state of the 3DS?
PSN is vital for the Vita, and they've designed the hardware in a way that allows them to take advantage of it. With 3DS, providing a comprehensive online system is not really a priority for Nintendo, which is expected, but that doesn't mean they'll do the same thing for the Wii U. The hardware is more capable and they sort of have to provide a decent online service.
 
2013 at the earliest?

That probably depends on how well the WiiU does at launch.

It does well? 2013 at the latest.

I love you. Just saying.

As for Microsoft, well, I think waiting till next year will be a better way to optimize their sales potential for the 360.
 
Raistlin said:
I'm not necessarily stating that a late launch will be a great idea, but I think the situation is different enough that we can't necessarily look at history. If say Sony or MS waits until 2014, they can double their RAM at little long-term cost. Doubling RAM will make a pronounced difference in fidelity and really there isn't much convincing that needs to be done regarding devs. From a feature standpoint, it's likely all the GPU's will use a similar shader model. So when a dev makes a multiplatform (including PC) game ... basically the main differences will be what 'settings' are used. Yes that's an oversimplification, but just like now what we'll see is the console revs having dramatically lower texture detail, etc. versus the PC version. Now if one of the consoles happens to have double (or more) RAM, there really isn't much work to be done. The assets will already be there from the PC rev.

When you then consider the liklihood that all the manufacturers will want the next gen to go at least as long as this one ... two things come out of it. A 'late' entrant has plenty of time to catch up ... and if they have a notable RAM delta, they can stay relevant versus PC for far longer. Like it or not, consoles have a much longer-term strategy then they used to.
Doesn't that somewhat depend on everyone participating in a long console life? So let's say Sony holds off until 2014 so they can make another 8 year console. But what if Nintendo launches 2012 and is only planning on it being a 5-6 year console? In that situation Sony would both lose early mover advantages and end up behind in tech for most of its active life anyway.
 
Regarding stereoscopic 3d there should be a new HDMI spec, so by the time XB720 launches it should have HDMI 1.5 or whatever. It was rumored by the Korea Times that Sony is also looking to partner with LG on OLED displays.

LG Display plans to invest some 400 billion won this year to prepare to mass produce OLED displays to replace the current industry mainstream of LCDs, probably from 2014.

“As Sony has already put LG Display on a list of key suppliers, future talks will cover its OLED panel outsourcing from the latter half of this year,” said an LG executive who is also familiar with the LG-Sony issue.

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/tech/2012/01/129_103814.html


Hopefully the next HDMI version has good mandatory specs.


As of now LG is supplying FPR LCD panels to a lot of companies. Sony, Panasonic, Toshiba, Vizio, Phillips, and more. With LG using this method on their future OLED TV and I assume Sony OLED, this method is only gaining more momentum. With the research showing people prefer this passive tech over active shutter glasses, this trend is good news if your a fan of stereoscopic gaming.
 
Regarding stereoscopic 3d there should be a new HDMI spec, so by the time XB720 launches it should have HDMI 1.5 or whatever. It was rumored by the Korea Times that Sony is also looking to partner with LG on OLED displays.



http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/tech/2012/01/129_103814.html


Hopefully the next HDMI version has good mandatory specs.


As of now LG is supplying FPR LCD panels to a lot of companies. Sony, Panasonic, Toshiba, Vizio, Phillips, and more. With LG using this method on their future OLED TV and I assume Sony OLED, this method is only gaining more momentum. With the research showing people prefer this passive tech over active shutter glasses, this trend is good news if your a fan of stereoscopic gaming.
I'm a bit confused understanding what you're getting at here. Why would a new HDMI spec be necessary? Exactly what is missing that you feel needs to be added pursuant to 3D?

Similarly, what does FPR's potential popularity have to do with any of this? It's a display technology. It has zero to do with how games are rendered. That's why we have video standards ... to avoid any problems from the input side. All 3D displays, whether passive, active, or whatever all input the same 3D data. How they display them is immaterial.
 
I know. How DARE they try and reach out to a growing userbase of new players to keep the industry afloat?

I will reiterate yet again that I do not have a problem with titles like Wii Sports, Wii Music, Wii Play, Wii Big Mac n' Cheese and Wii Fit stretching out and reaching new horizons.

But let's not forget that Microsoft have a core audience, an audience that'd absolutely love to be treated in the way they were in 2007 alongside the Kinect audience. Microsoft have not done this however, we're pretty much seeing Halo, Forza and Fable being repeated and that's it. I understand that they'll want the core audiences to buy Kinect as well, but I think they're going about it the wrong way. You're not expanding audiences by targetting Kinect at the hardcore in the wrong way, you're just hurting the audiences you already have.

Examples of Microsoft targeting the core audiences with Kinect the right way.

Hybrid titles (Forza 4/ME3/GR:FS)
General 360 software Kinect support
Kinect Fun Labs

Example of Microsoft targeting the core audiences with Kinect the wrong way.

XBLA titles
Kinect only 'hardcore' titles

I mean, let's not lie here. Who would rather have seen Fable IV with a few Kinect additions, opposed to 'The Journey'? I'm raising my hand right now. Sure you may say that Lionhead pitched the title to them, but I'd more than guess that Microsoft still told them they had to make a Kinect game. Surely something caused general unhappiness with the studio, otherwise why on earth did so many major staff leave so suddenly?

And will 'The Journey' or 'Ryse' have as much substance and depth as other Motion control exclusive titles such as Skyward Sword? If they do then fantastic, I've got the wrong impression from these games, but I really don't think I do.
 
providing a comprehensive online system is not really a priority for Nintendo, which is expected, but that doesn't mean they'll do the same thing for the Wii U. The hardware is more capable and they sort of have to provide a decent online service.

Indeed they do. But I think the point is they have no ground to build on. Sony has already gone through most of the hard lifting for PSN with the PS3 they're fairly solid.

Nintendo hardly dipped a toe in the online world throughout this gen and it when it did it was half assed at best.

The point has been raised a few times in this thread you don't just get a quality service from the off their has to be something solid to build on. If it took MS until the 360 for Xbox Live to be the service we know now and it's taken Sony a big part of this gen to bring PSN up to a decent level and they still have stuff that is missing.

So i just cannot see Nintendo who has always treated online as an afterthought somehow coming out of the gate with anything near a decent service no matter who they bring on board.
 
I mean, let's not lie here. Who would rather have seen Fable IV with a few Kinect additions, opposed to 'The Journey'? I'm raising my hand right now. Sure you may say that Lionhead pitched the title to them, but I'd more than guess that Microsoft still told them they had to make a Kinect game. Surely something caused general unhappiness with the studio, otherwise why on earth did so many major staff leave so suddenly?

And will 'The Journey' or 'Ryse' have as much substance and depth as other Motion control exclusive titles such as Skyward Sword? If they do then fantastic, I've got the wrong impression from these games, but I really don't think I do.

I don't know. F3 had no Kinect and it sucked hardcore. Maybe Kinect will help the series do something new.
 
I mean, let's not lie here. Who would rather have seen Fable IV with a few Kinect additions, opposed to 'The Journey'? I'm raising my hand right now. Sure you may say that Lionhead pitched the title to them, but I'd more than guess that Microsoft still told them they had to make a Kinect game. Surely something caused general unhappiness with the studio, otherwise why on earth did so many major staff leave so suddenly?
.

So basically let's ignore what's been said and assume anyways? If Peter was pushing to use Kinect, I highly doubt developing for the controller is the reason for people leaving.
 
I wonder how Microsoft is going to handle all the possible SKUs, with Kinect 2.0 and HDD ?

Like they do right now with Kinect 1.0 and HDD or flash?!

MS will probably introduce KINECT 2.0 after the XBOX 720 launch.
Kinect 1.0 can benefit from accrued console power and, as it stands, already fullfills the not hardcore people.

I expect 2 SKU without Kinect and a limited launch edition with a reskinned Kinect 1.0 (matching the 720 design and soon to be available as a stand alone).
 
I think Kinect 2.0 is going to be included in the box. In all SKUs. Peripherals don't get the same kind of support that default options do.
 
I expect 2 SKU without Kinect and a limited launch edition with a reskinned Kinect 1.0 (matching the 720 design and soon to be available as a stand alone).

There will be no SKUs without Kinect, i.e. they might release one without it for people who already have Kinect (if they don't decide to go with Kinect 2 out of the gate), but software development guidelines will tell developers to assume that everyone has one.
 
There will be no SKUs without Kinect, i.e. they might release one without it for people who already have Kinect (if they don't decide to go with Kinect 2 out of the gate), but software development guidelines will tell developers to assume that everyone has one.

This all sounds like one big mistake.
 
This all sounds like one big mistake.

It would certainly affect the BOM of the hardware box, but it would put Kinect into far more homes and allow software makers to finally give it proper support. Kinect is what caused the current sales surge so I'd far from call it a mistake to gain proper support for a less error-prone version of it.
 
It would certainly affect the BOM of the hardware box, but it would put Kinect into far more homes and allow software makers to finally give it proper support. Kinect is what caused the current sales surge so I'd far from call it a mistake to gain proper support for a less error-prone version of it.

That's just it, it would effect BOM and limit their pricing options throughout the entire generation when it would hardly effect support for the device IMO.
 
I heard Kinect adventures is the best/biggest selling game on the x360. Don't know what that adds to the discussion, but there you go. I don't even have a source, or know it to be true - it just came up in conversation.
 
Sounds like a perfect plan for me.

2012 - Buy the WiiU
2013 - Buy the Xbox720
2014 - Buy the PS4

A nice spread.

No way Sony launch 2014, same year as the next box at the latest.

I have a funny feeling Sony might have a big surprise for E3 this year, majority of their studios are silent ........ MS studios have announced projects (Halo 4, Forza World ) ...... Sony don't.

Sony will be ready to go before MS.
 
No way Sony launch 2014, same year as the next box at the latest.

I have a funny feeling Sony might have a big surprise for E3 this year, majority of their studios are silent ........ MS studios have announced projects (Halo 4, Forza World ) ...... Sony don't.

Sony will be ready to go before MS.

No if anything Sony would hope MS waits as long as possible. I think MS will get at least get a 6 month headstart.
 
No way Sony launch 2014, same year as the next box at the latest.

I have a funny feeling Sony might have a big surprise for E3 this year, majority of their studios are silent ........ MS studios have announced projects (Halo 4, Forza World ) ...... Sony don't.

Sony will be ready to go before MS.

Sony has Last of Us coming, plus games that are already announced like the Last Guardian.

I agree with you though, Sony and MS will likely launch within the same quarter IMO.

No if anything Sony would hope MS waits as long as possible. I think MS will get at least get a 6 month headstart.

So you think Sony will launch the PS4 during the summer?
 
It would be hilarious if Sony smash MS next-gen simply because all of that money establishing the xbox brand to stop Sonys dominance in the living room gone to waste.
 
That's just it, it would effect BOM and limit their pricing options throughout the entire generation when it would hardly effect support for the device IMO.

I think it's a pretty risky move and I actually like that. Kinect games have not been too impressive so far but the idea is solid and the technology is pretty sweet; if they pull it off we could see a lot of new game ideas that weren't possible before. There is a big difference between including it standard and leaving it a peripheral; knowing it's standard just gives devs more of a reason to commit to it. The Wii U tablet is in a similar position, if it's just a peripheral devs aren't going to be able to use it to its full potential.
 
I agree partly with you but the problem I have at the moment is I have seen nothing so far that would make me want to purchase the xbox version of a game because it has kinect functionality. But it still lets me use the controller.
If kinect is standard it may well become central to the game and if kinect does not catch on were will that leave the xbox.
 
It would certainly affect the BOM of the hardware box, but it would put Kinect into far more homes and allow software makers to finally give it proper support. Kinect is what caused the current sales surge so I'd far from call it a mistake to gain proper support for a less error-prone version of it.

And if the fad bottoms out like the Wii waggle did, they are strapped with it while it gets only marginal use by core games. It is a dangerous gamble to put so much into something that may not work out. They would be better off using the same Kinect hardware and letting people attach their old 360 Kinect to a new 720. Keep the 720 BOM down and not ricking the whole console on a arm flailing camera.
 
And if the fad bottoms out like the Wii waggle did, they are strapped with it while it gets only marginal use by core games. It is a dangerous gamble to put so much into something that may not work out. They would be better off using the same Kinect hardware and letting people attach their old 360 Kinect to a new 720. Keep the 720 BOM down and not ricking the whole console on a arm flailing camera.

The bolded discounts your post entirely as being simultaneously short-sighted and wrong.
The fact that you believe current Kinect tech is "good enough" just cements the invalidity of the post.
 
And if the fad bottoms out like the Wii waggle did, they are strapped with it while it gets only marginal use by core games. It is a dangerous gamble to put so much into something that may not work out. They would be better off using the same Kinect hardware and letting people attach their old 360 Kinect to a new 720. Keep the 720 BOM down and not ricking the whole console on a arm flailing camera.

IMO I'd prefer to see companies make some "dangerous gambles" because that's where innovation comes from. If MS believes they have something special they should man up and try to make it work. If it flops it flops (which doesn't affect me in any way.. plus MS has the cash to deal with it) but if it takes off the payoff could be huge (new experiences, yay).
 
IMO I'd prefer to see companies make some "dangerous gambles" because that's where innovation comes from. If MS believes they have something special they should man up and try to make it work. If it flops it flops (which doesn't affect me in any way.. plus MS has the cash to deal with it) but if it takes off the payoff could be huge (new experiences, yay).

Rather have them poor everything into performance and cooling.
Its a simple controller and good game IP that will get you loyal fans.
Not some motion control stuff which is just a fad and the casual will probably drop it the moment something better or newer comes out.
 
The word "fad" being used on GAF to describe something that will be intrinsically intertwined with video gaming from 2006 onward until the hobby dies makes me a sad panda.

KageMaru said:
Kinect won't become the standard controller for the next xbox so I don't think that's anything to worry about.

No no, the tablet pad will be the standard controller. The Kinect 2.0 would be a supplemental in-the-box addition which you'd use for family gaming, UI, and sequences in your games that require full body recognitionl that the gyros/accelos in the pad won't get you. And, like every peripheral known to man, it won't have any kind of broad support unless it's in the box.
 
I think it's a pretty risky move and I actually like that. Kinect games have not been too impressive so far but the idea is solid and the technology is pretty sweet; if they pull it off we could see a lot of new game ideas that weren't possible before. There is a big difference between including it standard and leaving it a peripheral; knowing it's standard just gives devs more of a reason to commit to it. The Wii U tablet is in a similar position, if it's just a peripheral devs aren't going to be able to use it to its full potential.

I think games haven't been too impressive due to MS raising expectations a bit too high when the technology wasn't ready/mature yet and developers not having enough time with said tech.

Unless you want kinect to be the primary input device, which it won't be, making it standard will have little effect on it's support IMO. The overall install base is all that matters and while I understand including it in every box will help build the install base of the controller, it would also limit the market potential of the system as a whole.

I see many more drawbacks with including Kinect standard than benefits. As long as Kinect 2.0 has good sales, it will be supported.

I agree partly with you but the problem I have at the moment is I have seen nothing so far that would make me want to purchase the xbox version of a game because it has kinect functionality. But it still lets me use the controller.
If kinect is standard it may well become central to the game and if kinect does not catch on were will that leave the xbox.

Kinect won't become the standard controller for the next xbox so I don't think that's anything to worry about.
 
And if the fad bottoms out like the Wii waggle did, they are strapped with it while it gets only marginal use by core games.

Kinect and similar devices are firmly in the future of more companies than just Microsoft. It can and will be used for far more than just games, while in games it can and will be used for far more than just arm flailing. Its addition will be subsidized by software and possibly paid services (for instance, interactive TV in the vein of what they're already doing with National Geographic and Sesame Workshop, quiz and game shows and so on).
 
What is it with these companies trying to get me off the sofa?
My day job is very labour intensive and I also run the roads every other night after putting 2 kids to bath and bed.
Please let me retain my sofa gaming habits!
 
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