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[Major Williams]

Ogres are fantastic guns. I love mine. The Hellfire is still arguably more versatile, though. Ogres will do more raw bullet and elemental damage than a Hellfire, but the Hellfire's high rate of fire and DoT effect makes it easier to use in both close quarters and against long distance enemies taking cover. They're also generally more effective against enemies like the Crimson Lance and other humans/skags.

The Hellfire consistently does such absurd DoT, that the same gun does largely the same damage on different leveled enemies.

Agreed that the Hellfires are more versatile - unless you're playing as the Berserker (Brick). He has the explosion damage multiplier that would send that gun over the top. My clip size is huge (69) and fire rate is the same as the Hellfire, so there is no real drawback with the particular Ogre I picked up. Just out of curiosity, what is your Hellfire at?

 

[GuardianE]

Agreed that the Hellfires are more versatile - unless you're playing as the Berserker (Brick). He has the explosion damage multiplier that would send that gun over the top. My clip size is huge (69) and fire rate is the same as the Hellfire, so there is no real drawback with the particular Ogre I picked up. Just out of curiosity, what is your Hellfire at?

Not top line. None of my stuff is, really, except maybe my Vitriolic Crux, Masher, Shield, and Class Mod. I never trade or dupe, and I haven't been able to farm as much as of late.

It does 100+, 10.8 fire rate, Very high chance, and a nice scope.

 

[Major Williams]

Alright the RPG is called
RPG16 Flaming Redemption
Accuracy = 88.8
Red text is: Monster Kill!
+14% fire rate
+137% dmg

 

[GuardianE]

Alright the RPG is called
RPG16 Flaming Redemption
Accuracy = 88.8
Red text is: Monster Kill!
+14% fire rate
+137% dmg

Your Redemption fires 2 rounds? That's pretty unusual. I don't think I've seen any rocket launchers fire 2 rounds. Usually, it's singular damage or a X2 modifier for Helix. Then there are some that have burst fire, shooting 3 rockets in quick succession. That will have the modifier text +300% burst count, though.

The Monster Kill red text means that you get a larger, slower moving projectile that creates a larger explosion than usual.

 

[Major Williams]

Your Redemption fires 2 rounds? That's pretty unusual. I don't think I've seen any rocket launchers fire 2 rounds. Usually, it's singular damage or a X2 modifier for Helix. Then there are some that have burst fire, shooting 3 rockets in quick succession. That will have the modifier text +300% burst count, though.

The Monster Kill red text means that you get a larger, slower moving projectile that creates a larger explosion than usual.

Yeah it definitely fires 2 rockets per trigger pull. I can only fire the 6 clip round 3 times before reloading.

At any rate, I love this game and I'm probably going to retire it now though - I have 60/60 achievements now...

 

[GuardianE]

Yeah it definitely fires 2 rockets per trigger pull. I can only fire the 6 clip round 3 times before reloading.

At any rate, I love this game and I'm probably going to retire it now though - I have 60/60 achievements now...

That's odd. Check if it's posted in the wiki. If it's not, then you might have a rare find. Or a really convincing mod... those have been known to sneak into others' collections via trades/public game drops.

Yeah, just finished Zombie Ned achievements yesterday. One Mad Moxxi arena and I'll have them all. Once that's over, I think I'll hit something new. I'll definitely pop it in if one my friends picks it up, though.

 

[kennah]

I finally got Borderlands! Anyone interested in helpin' a brother out to get the And They'll Tell Two Friends achievement? Shoot me a pm (xbox)

 

[BigBlackGamer]

I just beat the skag gully solo (20 rounds) and man I dunno when I'm gonna be in the mood to do that for the other 2 large arenas. I didn't die not once though. Siren seems to kick ass in the Moxxi arena's.

 

[Zertez]

How long did it take to clear the 20 round arena?

 

[onken]

Just got my platinum today. My thoughts:

- Preffered it in single player, more time for thorough looting and I don't have to share
- The leveling is too fast in 2nd playthrough, imo. I did only the main story quests and got to 50 in no time. Was hoping to save the side missions for playthrough 2.5
- Often encountered (especially my wife, bless) a really annoying bug where the camera would spin round uncontrollably during "fight for your life", making second wind impossible.
- Loot was good, finding a super-rare item is awesome
- Prices/rarity grade really broken; clearly inferior weapons were worth miles more than they should of been just because they had a high minimum level. Other times I'd find godly weapons which were only classed as white.
- Unskippable intro/tutorial missions even on playthrough 2, boo
- General interface woes; vertical splitscreen, poor control customisations, that awkward right-stick-to-pan in splitscreen, backpack sorting doesn't save etc. etc.
- Comparing stuff was kinda kooky, why is equipped stuff all the way down the bottom?

Good fun though generally, would defiintely recommend, shortcomings aside.

 

[msdstc]

Bumping this in hopes I find others like me. I booted up my game today in the Rust Commons and my screen turned all sorts of crazy colors... the menus were fine and every other location was fine, but that place I started would go crazy everytime I loaded it up. I googled it and apparently a few others have mentioned it was a glitch, but to me it looked like a graphics card problem. Anybody else experience this?

 

[jibblypop]

- Preffered it in single player, more time for thorough looting and I don't have to share

Awesome! I came into this thread to ask if this game is worth buying for those who don't have their 360 hooked up online.. You just answered my question for me!

I'm not usually a FPS fan but I love the artstyle of this game plus the constant leveling up sounds addictive.

I'll be adding this to the top of the backlog!

 

[msdstc]

Awesome! I came into this thread to ask if this game is worth buying for those who don't have their 360 hooked up online.. You just answered my question for me!

I'm not usually a FPS fan but I love the artstyle of this game plus the constant leveling up sounds addictive.

I'll be adding this to the top of the backlog!

I agree with the poster above, I like single player better. You can focus on your own missions and do some leveling up on the side. Online people seem so scattered and distant.

 

[BigBlackGamer]

How long did it take to clear the 20 round arena?

5 or 6 hours. rough estimate. I took breaks though.

 

[Insaniac]

here's the most beastly build i've used yet in the arenas... it stil remains that I feel the Lilith is the best char period


http://downloads.2kgames.com/borderlands/website/skilltree/lilith/#21505035550000005500520

For my equipment I used

170 damage SMG with 49 rds in it, 90 accuracy, and 13 fire rate
100x4 SMG with 30 accuracy and 8 fire rate (there are easily better ones)
150 damage x4 hellfire combustion SMG with 8 fire rate and 55 rounds
one SMG that regeerates ammo

a good mercenary classmod (mine is 56% smg damage, +4 quicksilver +3 high velocity +3 girl power) ideally you'd want ammo regen on that too

Decent shield (+1000) with HIGH recharge rate (+200) or +1000 with panacea mod (fast health regen)

Essentially you will TEAR through enemies regardless of what they are. Use the standard SMG for bandits and guardians, the 100x4 SMG for horde wave and hellfire combustion for skags/Lance

generally NEVER use phasewalk unless you need to run away and heal

 

[DY_nasty]

here's the most beastly build i've used yet in the arenas... it stil remains that I feel the Lilith is the best char period


http://downloads.2kgames.com/borderlands/website/skilltree/lilith/#21505035550000005500520

Thats my current build too.

Although, instead of silent resolve I use hit & run and spam phaseblasts like no tomorrow.

 

[FunkyPajamas]

I agree with the poster above, I like single player better. You can focus on your own missions and do some leveling up on the side. Online people seem so scattered and distant.

While I enjoyed the game in single player, I honestly believe that I had way much more fun while playing co-op. I had the fortune of playing with RL friends (one at first and then we eventually convinced two more to jump in), so I didn't run into any of the grievances people may run when playing with complete strangers. If you have any way of getting at least one friend to buy the game and join you for fun, try it, I'm sure you won't regret it.

I just wish the VoIP had been properly implemented in PS3, the quality is so low at times.

 

[GuardianE]

Thats my current build too.

Although, instead of silent resolve I use hit & run and spam phaseblasts like no tomorrow.

This is really the way to go with Sirens in general. The Merc build. I mean, Elementalists are fun, but Mercs dominate.

My current Merc build:

http://downloads.2kgames.com/borderlands/website/skilltree/lilith/#21505150550000000505540

Add another point to Blackout and another point to Dramatic Entrance.

Sirens are completely self sufficient with merc builds. They don't need anyone else, nor do they need any items at all. A simple Phase Walk will heal them, let their shield recharge, let them damage+daze the enemy, AND give them a 70% damage reduction when they're out of it. Because my cooldown is 15 seconds and -6 seconds with each kill, I can pretty much make two kills and be ready to Phase Walk again if I need it (it lets me travel faster across the arenas to get to more batches of enemies once they wittle down in numbers).

Double Anarchy and Hellfire here. I throw in a Defiler and Cobra for the heck of it.
Merc mod with +56%, +3, +3, +3, and +23 ammo regen.
1932 Shield Capacity and 180 Recharge (wish the recharge were higher)
Transfusion Grenade Mods (I don't really use grenades, so I didn't know what else to put).
Level 6 Incendiary Artifact (sometimes swap for Level 6 Corrosive)

 

[UFRA]

5 or 6 hours. rough estimate. I took breaks though.

Unbelievable...

What was Gearbox thinking with this add-on??

 

[JDS 1977]

Dumb question..

but If I'm playing single player is my character one that I create? Or do I just pick 1 of the four premade people? Also, am I running around on my own? or do you have to have an npc team in single player?

 

[msdstc]

While I enjoyed the game in single player, I honestly believe that I had way much more fun while playing co-op. I had the fortune of playing with RL friends (one at first and then we eventually convinced two more to jump in), so I didn't run into any of the grievances people may run when playing with complete strangers. If you have any way of getting at least one friend to buy the game and join you for fun, try it, I'm sure you won't regret it.

I just wish the VoIP had been properly implemented in PS3, the quality is so low at times.

I play with my RL friends too... in fact we plan on a LAN usually. It's just one person will stop to check out every gun then compare it to all the guns in their inventory, then they stop to sell/buy everything. I don't have a problem with it, but sometimes I'd rather be out there farming up some stats, or just running through some side missions.

 

[GuardianE]

Dumb question..

but If I'm playing single player is my character one that I create? Or do I just pick 1 of the four premade people? Also, am I running around on my own? or do you have to have an npc team in single player?

One of four. You can customize their color palette (hair, helmet, armor, pants), but other than that their appearance will be the same. Also, no NPC team players.

And to everyone using sharing as the reason why single player is better for them, I just feel like that will get boring over time. Not to say that Borderlands does not play very well, but rather the looting becomes a little less significant in the scope of things because you're not able to show off your new awesome gun to your friends.

 

[DY_nasty]

Siren's silent resolve just isn't reliable enough for me.

Maybe I'm expecting too much out of it.

 

[FunkyPajamas]

I play with my RL friends too... in fact we plan on a LAN usually. It's just one person will stop to check out every gun then compare it to all the guns in their inventory, then they stop to sell/buy everything. I don't have a problem with it, but sometimes I'd rather be out there farming up some stats, or just running through some side missions.

Oh, ok, yeah, it happens, but I just, I don't know, I just look around or jump in a car (if the map/area allows it) and zoom around getting in trouble. It's not like you can't go to the end of the map and come back or whatever while your friends look at the inventory.

But yeah, I understand that playing at your own pace and not having to wait for people is often better. Either way I think we can agree that the game is fun both solo and co-op.

 

[GuardianE]

Siren's silent resolve just isn't reliable enough for me.

Maybe I'm expecting too much out of it.

I don't see why not. A few seconds of 70% damage reduction is a beautiful thing. Every phasewalk. I phasewalk right into the middle of level 51 enemies and they can hardly hurt me as a pump bullets into them.

And don't get me started with PVP. Guns that would normally one-shot you will take at least 2-3 shots, giving you time to daze and murder. Matches generally only last a few seconds anyway.

 

[BigBlackGamer]

Unbelievable...

What was Gearbox thinking with this add-on??

It's definitely a grind. least you get a bank. although if you want the full 42 slot bank it costs 99991999. :lol

 

[Neuromancer]

I bought the Mad Moxie DLC before all the reviews and everything came out on it... Now I really wish I hadn't.

 

[DY_nasty]

I don't see why not. A few seconds of 70% damage reduction is a beautiful thing. Every phasewalk. I phasewalk right into the middle of level 51 enemies and they can hardly hurt me as a pump bullets into them.

And don't get me started with PVP. Guns that would normally one-shot you will take at least 2-3 shots, giving you time to daze and murder. Matches generally only last a few seconds anyway.

is the 70% reduction applying to shields and health now?

before it was just health, which sucked balls

 

[GuardianE]

I bought the Mad Moxie DLC before all the reviews and everything came out on it... Now I really wish I hadn't.

I don't know if it's an option for you, but I don't think more players increases the number of enemies you face. So ideally you'd have a team of 4 going at it for the larger challenges.

is the 70% reduction applying to shields and health now?

before it was just health, which sucked balls

Latest update says, "Silent Resolve now works as intended" so I'm assuming yes. In fact, I kinda inadvertantly tested it out when dueling a lower level. I just let him fire into me, and after I ran around with phasewalk his bullets did much less damage to my shields. It was a while ago, so I don't remember exactly because he could have been a Mordecai with Trespass.

 

[JDS 1977]

One of four. You can customize their color palette (hair, helmet, armor, pants), but other than that their appearance will be the same. Also, no NPC team players.

And to everyone using sharing as the reason why single player is better for them, I just feel like that will get boring over time. Not to say that Borderlands does not play very well, but rather the looting becomes a little less significant in the scope of things because you're not able to show off your new awesome gun to your friends.

Thanks for the info. I'm really wanting to pick this up, maybe once I finish Fallout.
I don't mind single-player. I always play Diablo and the like solo. If I need to show off I call the wife over and she's like "awesome! what stats etc?"

 

[Fladam]

Any kids up for some Mad Moxxi this morning before some FOOTBALL!?

I've got a level 50 Hunter just waiting to do some damage...

GT: Fladam101

 

[rainking187]

Old?
http://www.gamestop.com/Catalog/ProductDetails.aspx?product_id=76907
http://www.gamestop.com/Catalog/ProductDetails.aspx?product_id=76909
Borderlands add on packs for PC and 360 only? :/

 

[TheLegendary]

Is there a wiki with different gun properties and the special characteristics written in red?

 

[GuardianE]

Is there a wiki with different gun properties and the special characteristics written in red?

Yep. Just google Borderlands Wiki. It should be one of the first entries.

 

[FerranMG]

Just finished the game today.

Came in pretty hyped, and I'm leaving pretty disappointed.
Overall, I think there's some enjoyment to be had, but the main experience is repetitive and dull.

I only enjoyed the first level (due to the novelty of it all) and the last one (the chamber). Every other part of the game looks exactly the same, which sucks.

About the loot, I was expecting Diablo-like customization levels, but I felt it lacked a lot of depth.

The character's abilities are mostly stupid, and each one's special ability is a bad gimmick.

The quests should be more varied, there's almost no NPC talk with, and the overworld is dead.


I digged a lot the art style, though.
Some of the weapons (the last ones I got) where pretty cool.
But I'm very disappointed with what the game ended up being.

 

[Haunted]

Unbelievable...

What was Gearbox thinking with this add-on??

No fucking clue. It's just so terrible, especially compared to the enjoyable romp through Dr. Ned's Zombie Island.


Thumbs down, Gearbox.

 

[GuardianE]

Just finished the game today.

Came in pretty hyped, and I'm leaving pretty disappointed.
Overall, I think there's some enjoyment to be had, but the main experience is repetitive and dull.

I only enjoyed the first level (due to the novelty of it all) and the last one (the chamber). Every other part of the game looks exactly the same, which sucks.

About the loot, I was expecting Diablo-like customization levels, but I felt it lacked a lot of depth.

The character's abilities are mostly stupid, and each one's special ability is a bad gimmick.

The quests should be more varied, there's almost no NPC talk with, and the overworld is dead.


I digged a lot the art style, though.
Some of the weapons (the last ones I got) where pretty cool.
But I'm very disappointed with what the game ended up being.

The loot is so incredibly in depth, but people don't seem to realize it. The system literally has a bank of gun parts (for example, at least five different body types for each smg)... every single one of these gun parts have unwritten attributes, whether it affect accuracy, bullet velocity, damage, fire rate, clip size, etc, etc, and the game will throw these parts together to construct a gun randomly (within the confines of the rules of the game).

Not to mention manufacturer and material grade, two components which give certain unwritten attributes to a gun as well.

The only issue I had was that it takes a while to get quality guns... and you have no customization options yourself. As you're comparing it to Diablo, I can only imagine that you wanted to socket your items or rename them, since that's the only customization you have with your own weapons in Diablo. I sort of wish they'd allowed you to personalize your favorite gun or change the scope for a cost. I think these would have added something to the game without taking away from the default weapon creation system... also would help fight people duping items all the time.

I'm not sure what class you played as, but unless you were Brick, they're hardly gimmicky. End of Playthrough 2 and Playthrough 2.5, your skills can make a huge difference to your character if you choose the right skillsets. You're also free to completely ignore them and still have an effective character to a degree.

I do agree that the Rust Commons were pretty lackluster, considering how large the areas were, and they were pretty much the same crap over and over. Some change would've helped there.

 

[theBishop]

Brick's ability is clearly the best. Most effective and most fun to use.

 

[Hawkian]

:lol It's my least favorite of the four!

btw hi guys.

 

[Jet Grind Radio!]

Brick's ability is clearly the best. Most effective and most fun to use.

I've only used Brick and Mordecai's abilities, but I have to agree. I love running up to things and punching the shit out of them.

 

[onken]

Bumping this in hopes I find others like me. I booted up my game today in the Rust Commons and my screen turned all sorts of crazy colors... the menus were fine and every other location was fine, but that place I started would go crazy everytime I loaded it up. I googled it and apparently a few others have mentioned it was a glitch, but to me it looked like a graphics card problem. Anybody else experience this?

Yep I had exactly this a few times. Shit myself thinking my PS3 was in trouble but turns out its a Borderlands-specific problem.

 

[gburgess10]

Just finished my first play through, and I don't know if I'm going to complete the second one I started:

I know this game isn't about story but the little bits of "story" they did try to shove in were beyond absymal and annoyed me to no end. Seriously, who the hell is that woman who keeps "guiding" you? She might as well not exist. They should have spared me her theatrics (I mean at one point she was like "Oh! I can talk to you again! AWESOME!!!!!" and I was thinking I care because? So useless. And did they have to put it in that apology line at the end? "Sorry I didn't tell you about the monster"? Wtf? THAT's what they thought would be a good sendoff?)

And speaking of the end: The dungeon leading up to the end boss was decent, but the actual boss? So underwhelming. In fact, most of the huge bosses were too easy and underwhelming. Just point and shoot. Wow, thanks for making this a boss fight rather than just a normal encounter. At least the reward for that final fight was commensurate to the experience: underwhelming. I mean what exactly did it give besides XP? I didn't see anything in my inventory.

I played the Brute throughout the game, and I have to say Rocket Launchers suck so much ass. I can almost never get a direct hit on troops, and the explosions do negligible damage compared to my coop teammates. I mean, I'm shooting 10 or so rockets at a guy, and one of my teammates brings his attention to the fight and one shot snipes the dude. The Rocket launcher is supposed to be my specialty, why is it so hard to hit with it (even the AOE explosion on near misses did squat)? I ended up playing the game with a focus on the SMG.

The game was too repetitive as well.

I have more complaints, but I think I've beat on the game enough for now.

The good stuff?

It was a decent game. The loot system was pretty good, as well as the inventory. Fairly well polished. Fun way to pass the time.


Wish it had been better...

 

[FunkyPajamas]

Bumping this in hopes I find others like me. I booted up my game today in the Rust Commons and my screen turned all sorts of crazy colors... the menus were fine and every other location was fine, but that place I started would go crazy everytime I loaded it up. I googled it and apparently a few others have mentioned it was a glitch, but to me it looked like a graphics card problem. Anybody else experience this?

Yeah, we discussed this a while back: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=19057842&postcount=9264

It's caused by the 1.02 update, it seems. AFAIK Gearbox hasn't fixed it yet.

 

[jibblypop]

Ok, so I put in a few hours into the game so far. As I mentioned previously I haven't bought a first person shooter in ages. Maybe the last one was in 1999. Unreal Tournament or something.

I felt incredibly lost from the second I started playing this game and even after 5 hours of play I still feel like I don't really know what is going on. I guess people that play these types of games would just pick this up and have no problems but for me everything seems like some invisible guidebook has been written for years in games that I never played.

I keep forgetting I have grenades and when I remember, I always just whip them 100 feet in the air or a mile away from an enemy. Every time I find a new gun, I can't tell what type it is and I even went an hour thinking I equipped a new gun when I didn't. When I finally got the gun equipped that I wanted, I wasted what little money I had on a bunch of ammo which turned out to be for a different kind of machine gun than I had or something like that. I found a stock of guns after beating a boss but apparently my inventory was full so I started throwing guns on the floor to get them but I think I got rid of my 2 best ones for sniper rifles which I haven't been using.

Anyways, I thought some veterans of the FPS genre would find this story amusing. It's funny how playing a game in a genre you aren't used to is like watching someone speak another language.
I picked Borderlands because I like the cartoon graphics (I'm not a big fan of realistic looking games) and because you can level up like an RPG and those elements haven't disappointed me at all. After I stopped playing yesterday I considered quitting but I feel like their is a good game here if I just put the time in to learn everything added to FPS games from halo 1 until last week.

Sorry for the long post but this whole experience has been hilarious to me! :lol

 

[bucknuticus]

Me and my buddy have been playing this off and on since launch, and last night found the first rage inducing moment that almost killed the entire game for us. We were in Krom's Canyon doing the quest two wrongs make a right, and while heading up a ramp a badass with a electrical rocket launcher was killing us nonstop. Each of us loss close to 80k in money and used all of our ammo. He seemed impossible to kill, and we were both 3 levels over him. Im not sure if we didnt have the right equipment although it does make quick work of all the other enemies, so i dont know.

 

[PhlivoSong]

Brick's ability is clearly the best. Most effective and most fun to use.

I loved Brick's special early in the game, but later on it becomes useless. In many cases you will be nearly dead as you approach an enemy because their guns become so strong. After being at level 50 for awhile I actually re-spec'd my Brick to get rid of most of the stuff I used Berserk for. The only thing I use it for now is to heal myself.

 

[Celcius]

Just got the platinum trophy. I'll probably skip Mad Moxxi's dlc and wait for whatever comes next.

 

[Virro]

Got Borderlands a while ago and finally getting around to playing it, but I had a question... what would you guys recommend as the best solo class? Is there a definitive answer or is it more related to preferred playstyle? I usually go for Ranger/Hunter/Sniper/Mage sit back and damage types in RPGs, so I was kinda leaning towards Mordecai, but I heard Lilith is a beast in the late-game and Roland is essentially impossible to kill in the end-game too.

 

[GuardianE]

I loved Brick's special early in the game, but later on it becomes useless. In many cases you will be nearly dead as you approach an enemy because their guns become so strong. After being at level 50 for awhile I actually re-spec'd my Brick to get rid of most of the stuff I used Berserk for. The only thing I use it for now is to heal myself.

This.

Brick's skill is probably best for early game, but it slowly loses its usefulness over time. If you have no intention of every reaching above level 40, then Brick's skill is fine. Otherwise, it becomes a novelty because your guns are so much more powerful and your health regen is a joke compared to how much damage you're taking.

Got Borderlands a while ago and finally getting around to playing it, but I had a question... what would you guys recommend as the best solo class? Is there a definitive answer or is it more related to preferred playstyle? I usually go for Ranger/Hunter/Sniper/Mage sit back and damage types in RPGs, so I was kinda leaning towards Mordecai, but I heard Lilith is a beast in the late-game and Roland is essentially impossible to kill in the end-game too.

All of them are fine for soloing. From what I can tell, Lilith is the most self sufficient class, especially for late game. Her skills are mostly selfish... none of them give any real bonuses to the rest of her allies, but in turn are more geared towards giving her bonuses. She can use her skill offensively and defensively, and can up her weapon damage/effectiveness pretty early on. She'll have the hardest time starting out, though, because the benefits of Phasewalk are not immediately apparent.

Like I noted earlier, Brick's excellent for early-mid game and his skill is hysterical. Soldiers are pretty balanced. I had a harder time starting with Mordecai than I did the Soldier, but I think he opens up mid game.



EDIT: On another note about modded guns, some douche came into a public game with my friend (he just started, so he didn't know how to make it private) and the first thing he does is challenge my lvl 50 Siren to a duel with his modded sniper rifle. It was really close, but he killed me in one shot, which should normally be impossible with my gear/stats. Fucking mods.

I have never lost a duel against anyone using legit weapons, but I feel like I have to accept challenges from people with weapon mods. Most of the time, I show them up.

 

[Killer]

i just got borderlands and i'm looking for some people to play with .