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Brandon Sanderson - The Cosmere |OT| there's always another secret...
- Thread starter ExMachina
- Start date
Poodlestrike
Banned
#TeamSteris fuck yeah!
Turned into easily my favorite Sanderson relationship. She's just so cute, with the hilariously non-excessive preparation!
CornBurrito
Member
Who claimed he couldn't write female characters?
Specifically, it was a claim that Kai's date in Perfect State was an example of a poorly written female lead by Sanderson. I don't think it's really applicable though.
If by fine you mean you actually DID intended to state that it's an ongoing problem with multiple characters then sure, you phrased it fine. That's how you wrote it, that's how I read it.
Done with this line of conversation.
CornBurrito
Member
Dunno why you're so upset.
I said in plain english that he can (has the capacity, has done so in his writing career) write bad female characters. I stick by that.
My language didn't imply it was an ongoing problem with multiple characters. You misread it completely.
The "characters" and "their" were referencing characters from other works of fiction (ie. not Sanderson).
To clarify - I'm not upset. I just disagree, explaining why I disagree, and why I feel I read what you wrote correctly, contrary to your assertion.
If my diction implies anger or frustration, it's probably a product of my attempt at be clear and precise in those explanations.
Edit: or maybe it was the final "done with this line..." Yeah, probably could have worded I differently. Just trying to say I didn't want to drag it out, and pretty much said all I could on the subject.
Poodlestrike
Banned
So, deliberately starting a new line of discussion: is there a WoG detailing how Worldhopping works? All of the Worldhoppers we've seen seem to be effectively immortal, or at least extraordinarily well preserved, which makes me think there's more to it than the obvious "they hop between worlds a'doy." Plus, I'm kinda curious if Rosharan Elsecallers can do it, since their power already involves hopping into and out of the Cognitive Realm, which from Secret Histories seems to be a part of Worldhopping.
Detailing, no. Slyly answering questions with answers from RAFO to cryptic, yes.
http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt='worldhopping'
(BTW it's WoB for Words of Brandon).
Poodlestrike
Banned
Actually, one of my questions did get answered outright
Also, I'm a Troper; it'll always be WoG to me
Actually, one of my questions did get answered outright
Also, I'm a Troper; it'll always be WoG to me
Yeah, he's not above answering outright from time to time if he means something to be apparent anyway. In general terms though, he really hasn't detailed world hopping, and any time a question runs up against something that isn't nearly spelled out, he keeps things very close to the chest.
Btw you probably want to spoiler that..
Poodlestrike
Banned
Still don't get the spoiler policy around here tbh. There's not any character or plot elements in there.
There's really not much of a policy but IMO much of the pleasure of reading Sanderson comes from the discovery process - particularly how he's built these magic systems to work.
Don't feel too bad, I got called out in this very thread for posting an impression of where I thought a relationship was going at the end of a recent Mistborn book.
SuperEpicMan
Banned
I have just finished Shadows of Self, and felt it was another awesome book. I am beginning to think Brandon Sanderson might be my favourite author. This was the sixth book I have read in a row, and my interest does not seem to be waning in the slightest, all the books so far have been pretty fast paced with some great world building and magical lore peppered throughout to keep me hooked. I also quite liked that the story of Shadows of Self
took a break from what was set up in the first to tell a kinda side story, only to tie it back in at the end. Also, holy shit that ending. The whole Lessie not actually being dead, only to be Bleeder, and to be killed by Wax, again
Poodlestrike
Banned
I guess I understand that. Now that I think about it, there's been a fair few plot points/mystery payoffs that've relied on unrevealed worldbuilding (especially magic) elements.
I have just finished Shadows of Self, and felt it was another awesome book. I am beginning to think Brandon Sanderson might be my favourite author. This was the sixth book I have read in a row, and my interest does not seem to be waning in the slightest, all the books so far have been pretty fast paced with some great world building and magical lore peppered throughout to keep me hooked. I also quite liked that the story of Shadows of Selftook a break from what was set up in the first to tell a kinda side story, only to tie it back in at the end. Also, holy shit that ending. The whole Lessie not actually being dead, only to be Bleeder, and to be killed by Wax, again
Shadows of Self ending was
an absolute gutpunch. Second (or maybe third) toughest ending on a protagonist I've read.
That was me, right? I believe i interpreted it as a fact, or something like that. I think.
I figure that relationship is kind of a core thing in the Mistborn Era 2 and mere impressions are easy to interpret as spoilerish. I can guess something based others comments even without having read much... sometimes.
(I don't actually recall any details anymore.)
Spoiler policy... Honestly, i'd like a clear one. Makes difficult to talk about stuff when i don't know if it is OK or not. I am pretty strict about spoilers, and i'd be inclined to stuff a lot of stuff under spoiler tags, even if it isn't quite necessary. But that's just me.
I'd be OK with "no tags" policy, that would be certainly clear. Of course, anyone new to the series might not find this place good then.
A problem with Sanderson's stuff is that, for example, magic systems are usually part of the plot itself, and details about them can be spoilers. Can be. Like, the whole Stormlight Archive is built upon the premise "magic is coming back and it is kinda big deal".
I think so, but not sure. Whoever it was, no big deal, we good.
And yeah we might want to think about making an official spoiler policy for OT. Lately I've been trying to be extra careful with tags here just in case. Seems like we frequently have new people coming in just discovering the series and I don't wanna ruin it for anyone.
Since we get new people every now and then, spoilery discussion about specific plot points or characters and easter eggs should be spoiler tagged.
General thoughts and impressions can be left untagged. If you're still unsure, just tag the whole post (and include a label of which book).
General thoughts and impressions can be left untagged. If you're still unsure, just tag the whole post (and include a label of which book).
I've started to read a lot of Sanderson lately. First I went through the first Mistborn trilogy, then Elantris, then the next two Mistborn books, then Warbreaker. I've liked them all, mostly, but none of them have lived up to that very first Mistborn book to me. That's when the characters seemed the most interesting.
Wowfunhappy
Member
I have the same opinion. Pretty much all of Sanderson's books are good, but nothing quite compares to The Final Empire. That was an AMAZING book.
The Stormlight Archive comes close though. They take a while to get going, which is why I'd still rank them below The Final Empire, but once they've hit their stride... well, you have those waiting for you.
Poodlestrike
Banned
I actually found Final Empire a little below par, but I didn't really enjoy the entire first Mistborn trilogy all that much. I found the style overly mechanical.
H.Cornerstone
Member
#TeamWarbreaker
Alloy Of Law is kind of a standalone that was written to gauge interest in moving the Mistborn world forward. The books that follow it are a trilogy.
So yes and no....it's a standalone with a follow up trilogy.
You can, and it was written as a standalone, but honestly, after reading Alloy of Law you're gonna want to read more with those characters.
And I think Elantris is pretty widely regarded as his weakest work. Certainly it's SOMEONE's favorite, but the consensus is it's the weakest.
Wowfunhappy
Member
Absolutely. It has a very self-contained, succinct story. The ending does do some things to leave you wanting more, but no moreso than, say, Warbreaker or Elantris.
It's not technically part of the larger Adventures trilogy according to Sanderson, and it shows IMO.
For the record I think he's smoking crack on that one, haha. I can't not think of it as a tetralogy.
Poodlestrike
Banned
You can, but despite Sanderson's claims to the contrary it's a quadrilogy. You can get some satisfaction out of it, but it's all about laying groundwork for subsequent titles.
Warbreaker>>>>>>>Elantris.
Wowfunhappy
Member
Well, when I read the Alloy of Law, I was completely unaware that there were more Era 2 books planned, and thought it was fine.
Similarly, when I finished Shadows of Self, I remember thinking "Odd, this feels much more like the setup to a larger story than Alloy of Law did." Thus, when I later read that Alloy of Law wasn't considered part of the trilogy, my takeaway was "Oh, that makes sense now."
Similarly, when I finished Shadows of Self, I remember thinking "Odd, this feels much more like the setup to a larger story than Alloy of Law did." Thus, when I later read that Alloy of Law wasn't considered part of the trilogy, my takeaway was "Oh, that makes sense now."
Poodlestrike
Banned
The fact that
the mastermind gets away and we never even find out why he was kidnapping people
Marsh
Wowfunhappy
Member
The latter of those things is what I was thinking about when I said "The ending does do some things to leave you wanting more, but no moreso than, say, Warbreaker or Elantris."
...I honestly kind of forgot about the former. Huh. I'm trying to come up with a coherent reason as to why I didn't consider it a big deal, but now I actually can't remember how/when he was introduced in the story or what impact he had... so maybe I just don't remember as much of the book as I thought I did, in which case everyone should disregard my earlier statements on the matter.
CornBurrito
Member
Can't wait for Stormlight 3.
Also got back into Mistborn. What a fun magic system. I also really like Vin. And while her thing with
kind of comes fast it makes a bit of sense
The setting almost kind of makes Stormlight feel a bit derivative but I don't mind at all.
Also got back into Mistborn. What a fun magic system. I also really like Vin. And while her thing with
Elund
because well... she is a teenager after all.
The setting almost kind of makes Stormlight feel a bit derivative but I don't mind at all.
Pre-Submit Reply "edit": This post seems to have grown to something i didn't plan for. Shit happens. Also, doesn't really have point, is kind of meandering and pondering. Probably should save this and expand it to a properly thought out essay someday.
All fantasy is derivative.
Speaking of that, i find it funny that Mistborn Prime was an attempt at a standard fantasy story. You know, a farm-boy, a mysterious mentor, big bad, etc. etc. Basic Hero's Journey.
The funny bit is that Mistborn is actually that as well, despite superficially different setting (big bad already won, our mysterious mentor (Kelsier) is just crazy (awesome) conman and a thief, and whatever else. EDIT Consider Star Wars A New Hope: the bad won already, that's why you got the rebellion... hell, the idea of big bad already ruling the world isn't very new).
Stormlight Archive does follow the Monomyth concept as well, which may be why it feels derivative.
While Elantris is perhaps regarded as the weakest of Sanderson's works, i figure it is in a way one of his more original works. Sure, it uses a lot of standard fantasy tropes, but the book as a whole feels kinda different. Indeed, that may be why it isn't as well regarded, it feels odd to people.
(One specific complaint i remember is Kiint's (was that one guy Kiint?) family, how modern it feels. Well, that's fantasy for you. I like seeing oddities like this, though i admit i don't always like them.)
I often see people complaining about "standard medieval European fantasy" (SMEF for later, too long to write). Yet it seems that fantasy world-genre is rather popular. It is familiar, easily approached.
An especially common complaint is "it is all the same". Well, it fucking isn't. Forgotten Realms isn't like Warcraft, which isn't like the Elder Scrolls, which isn't like the Lord of Rings. Sure, all share superficial similarities, which make them easily approachable and make good springboards to find the differences.
And, of course, a funny thing is that "medieval" is often more like Renaissance or something like that.
Sanderson's work's tend to mix unusual and original (well, as original as possible...) stuff with SMEF. The Stormlight setting does use elements of SMEF, with Alethe-whatever being kind of like medieval Europe, with its wars and plotting and whatever. Also, the focus on knights and knightly honor. Of course, as a world, it is something completely different. Sure as hell ain't Europe, yet it clearly ain't a desert like Middle-East either.
You know, i'm just going to stop here, i've been writing this for i don't know how long and it doesn't got any real point. Running out of steam. Also, i'll probably forget all about this by tomorrow.
...
Funny how being tired and making a semi-flippant comment leads to semi-essay. Semi, because it lacks a point because i'm tired.
I seem to be repeating things.
All fantasy is derivative
.Speaking of that, i find it funny that Mistborn Prime was an attempt at a standard fantasy story. You know, a farm-boy, a mysterious mentor, big bad, etc. etc. Basic Hero's Journey.
The funny bit is that Mistborn is actually that as well, despite superficially different setting (big bad already won, our mysterious mentor (Kelsier) is just crazy (awesome) conman and a thief, and whatever else. EDIT Consider Star Wars A New Hope: the bad won already, that's why you got the rebellion... hell, the idea of big bad already ruling the world isn't very new).
Stormlight Archive does follow the Monomyth concept as well, which may be why it feels derivative.
While Elantris is perhaps regarded as the weakest of Sanderson's works, i figure it is in a way one of his more original works. Sure, it uses a lot of standard fantasy tropes, but the book as a whole feels kinda different. Indeed, that may be why it isn't as well regarded, it feels odd to people.
(One specific complaint i remember is Kiint's (was that one guy Kiint?) family, how modern it feels. Well, that's fantasy for you. I like seeing oddities like this, though i admit i don't always like them.)
I often see people complaining about "standard medieval European fantasy" (SMEF for later, too long to write). Yet it seems that fantasy world-genre is rather popular. It is familiar, easily approached.
An especially common complaint is "it is all the same". Well, it fucking isn't. Forgotten Realms isn't like Warcraft, which isn't like the Elder Scrolls, which isn't like the Lord of Rings. Sure, all share superficial similarities, which make them easily approachable and make good springboards to find the differences.
And, of course, a funny thing is that "medieval" is often more like Renaissance or something like that.
Sanderson's work's tend to mix unusual and original (well, as original as possible...) stuff with SMEF. The Stormlight setting does use elements of SMEF, with Alethe-whatever being kind of like medieval Europe, with its wars and plotting and whatever. Also, the focus on knights and knightly honor. Of course, as a world, it is something completely different. Sure as hell ain't Europe, yet it clearly ain't a desert like Middle-East either.
You know, i'm just going to stop here, i've been writing this for i don't know how long and it doesn't got any real point. Running out of steam. Also, i'll probably forget all about this by tomorrow.
...
Funny how being tired and making a semi-flippant comment leads to semi-essay. Semi, because it lacks a point because i'm tired.
I seem to be repeating things.
I have no idea why i wrote that.
And i have no idea why i can't be that productive other times... Productive meaning "actually writing something, even if it is kind of nonsense".
I did come up with some nice events for my scifi notes... Of course, all i wrote was a bunch of bullet points rather than something substantial.
And i have no idea why i can't be that productive other times... Productive meaning "actually writing something, even if it is kind of nonsense".
I did come up with some nice events for my scifi notes... Of course, all i wrote was a bunch of bullet points rather than something substantial.
Poodlestrike
Banned
Yassssss gimme gimme gimme, so many things I'm looking forward to seeing play out!
I hear you man. I'm at the "bullet points and lists" stage of basically everything I want to write too. I really need to buckle down and actually write something at some point. Maybe this NaNoWriMo.
You're on point about people getting hung up on what is and is not "derivative." All works build on previous works. Even if you don't buy into the Universal Hero (or whatever the theory is called), you can see clear threads in story structure and, indeed, storytelling stretching all the way back to the time of Gilgamesh. That's what tropes are, it's why it's so interesting to use them to parse works, because you can see the connectivity between everything. Utterly fascinating.
Starting is so difficult. I know i can get stuff done once i start, i've written long-ish articles (usually on one sitting) once i got started.
But a story... i feel i still don't have the critical mass of bullet points. And some bullet points need awful lot of of research (or just math). EDIT By the way, i'm aware this is a wrong way to approach things. Write things out first, then research to fix stuff, is what i should do.
By the way, what's next from Sanderson? That novella&short story collection? And then Stormlight 3?
I need something to read. (I'd read The Well of Ascension again, as i read The Final Empire sometime ago but i can't find the book. Probably buried under a pile of books...)
I don't think there is a wrong way to approach things as long as you're getting to the end of that 1st draft eventually. Everyone has their own approach.
Poodlestrike
Banned
With hard sci-fi (which IIRC is your thing, right?) starting with research isn't actually such a bad play; the core of those books are the mechanics of them, with a story that's built off of that.
Tho Arkon is right, it's all about individual preference so long as it actually happens.
Tho Arkon is right, it's all about individual preference so long as it actually happens.
the black pearl
Member
300 pages in The Way of Kings. honestly finding it kind of slow.
H.Cornerstone
Member
It is, it's a slow build but totally worth it.
the black pearl
Member
I believe it. Still, when I got to the second Kaladin flashback chapter part of me went "Oh come on"
I found myself bored with WoKs until about half way through. After that and all through WoR I was completely hooked.
Poodlestrike
Banned
I'm not gonna lie: I soooorta skimmed/skipped the flashbacks. Sanderson did a really great job of outlining what happened in Kal's past without needing to pound it home in flashbacks. Most of the specifics were really just not needed.
That said, I didn't have nearly as much trouble getting into the rest of the book as some people did, so it was aight.
Let's start with starting first. Collection of ideas is not even a draft.
Ah, but my (would-be) story isn't really built upon those details, though they're certainly important to me since i do like realism. But ultimately, they're not necessary really, and it is easy to get bogged down on research (for the simple fact it is pretty interesting in itself) and never write anything.
Probably should listen to that Sanderson+co podcast about writing... Writing Excuses, was it?
Except reading is much faster than listening to something...
It is. The first half of the book is basically a giant prologue building the world. But when it starts to move, it moves. And the ending is spectacular.
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