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[BocoDragon]

i like the lengths people go to try to delude themselves into thinking walt's a-ok.

Nevermind that the only reason Hank was a target was because of Walt's direct interaction with Hank and that Gus one time saved Hank's life.

Or that Gus had to kill Walt because of Walt's own stupid actions.


But what I don't get is why people think Gus being bad is like something bad about the show. The show is called Breaking Bad. It's about a regular Joe becoming a really bad person and what that means. Accept that he's bad. It's the god damned point of the show!

You are missing out on some of the themes trying to be conveyed by not accepting it, IMO.

I don't think so. The writing of the show is amoral in the truest sense. It imposes no moral opinion one way or the other. It has never stated that Walt is a villain.

Your analysis is not wrong in the slightest. But it is your morality which makes Walt into a bad character. The narrative has never spelled this out.

This is why it's a smart show

 

[Al-ibn Kermit]

Ok, so let's get this straight. In this episode (and JUST this episode) Walt:

Had his nice, friendly, completely innocent neighbour walk into his house, which he suspected had people inside who wanted to kill him and might not wait to see who was opening the door before killing them.

-I don't see Gus' men being sloppy enough to kill random people on accident. I certainly can't imagine them sitting on the couch facing the door. Realistically, they would probably wait until Walt is inside the house, then one of them would come around the side gate to close the front door (surrounding Walt) and then they just put him down quietly and have a enclosed room to clean up any mess. They're not going to shoot bullets through the front door.

- Brought a bomb into a hospital.
- Brought said bomb also into a nursing home, and then blew up a room in it, without regard for the other people in the nursing home.

Bringing the bomb into the hospital was probably a panic move. And really, what else could he do but blow up the room? If it was in a park, then it's a totally different story but at least this way, the only chance of anybody else being injured is if they were standing in front of the door I guess.

- Poisoned a child with something that left him on the edge of death.

This part was clearly wrong but we don't know how much he pushed the envelope as far as the dosage. Obviously, he was thinking that his entire family was in danger, in that case putting a small risk on Brock's life in order to save his family may seem justified.

- Lied to his 'partner' and the only person on the planet who seems to still think he's anything but a cold calculating asshole and isn't related to him by blood. And not in a small way, either. In a "I just about killed the kid you're starting to feel like a father to, just to coerce you into killing someone who never actually did anything to you."

Oh come on, Gus was clearly planning to kill Jesse eventually. He has substance abuse problems, a history of poor decision-making skills, and worst of all he still had a conscience. There's no doubt that killing Gus added some time to Jesse's clock. Jesse was deceived by Gus with the whole "standing guard" thing when Mike had to pick up the drops and trusted Gus too much to be able to understand how disposable he was to him.

Of all the things you listed, lying to Jesse is something that anybody should be able to justify if they were in Walt's position.

Can we consider the question of Walt's lack of conscience a closed book now? PLEASE? The guy will do *anything* to get his way, without regard for innocents in the way.

Not really. If he only cared about himself, he would go to his basement and just count his money. The reason he did all of this was to save Hank, his family, and Jesse and himself as well.

If he did nothing, his brother-in-law would have been killed in short time and eventually so would Jesse. But his actual immediate family would all have been fine.

 

[THE-Pink-Dagger]

Oh for fuck's sake.

If I could ride a dinosaur I might ride it in a band leader's uniform.

Walt is in this 'extreme situation' because he put himself there. Everyone else in his life is there because he dragged them there. I wouldn't *be* in Walt's position because I'm not completely lacking a conscience, and I say that as someone who genuinely believes in some form of moral relativism.

And no, I wouldn't poison a child. Period. I sure as fuck wouldn't do it as part of some cold and calculated plan to become the biggest dirtbag on the criminal pile. He's done nothing for good reasons, and everything for selfish reasons.

It seriously worries me that anyone could possibly sympathize with Walt after this episode. If you think you're capable of doing the things Walt has done, I really genuinely worry about you.

The big words............. Congrats to you if you're 100 % good, not everything is black and white. It's just a chain of events, at first, he did it for his family (which was a good reason, I doubt anyone would want to leave their family penniless when they're gone, oh maybe you'll tell me that you would?! ), then he started to like it, got greedy, and met some shady characters, even though he caused this, he tries to save Hank, his family.

He's not 100 % bad.

 

[blame space]

s1/2mh

 

[Black Mamba]

I don't think so. The writing of the show is amoral in the truest sense. It imposes no moral opinion one way or the other. It has never stated that Walt is a villain.

Your analysis is not wrong in the slightest. But it is your morality which makes Walt into a bad character. The narrative has never spelled this out.

This is why it's a smart show

No, you're wrong. The show is called "breaking bad" and it's about Walt. He is clearly bad. It says so in the title of the show. "Bad" is a moral quality. The show is anything BUT amoral.

It is very moral in its writing. Asking the neighbor lady over was hitting us over the head with how awful Walt is. He sends an elderly, frail lady to walk into a Hornet's nest on his behalf for a lie. The show is clearly making it fucking obvious how bad Walt actually is.

 

[THE-Pink-Dagger]

No, you're wrong. The show is called "breaking bad" and it's about Walt. He is clearly bad. It says so in the title of the show. "Bad" is a moral quality. The show is anything BUT amoral.

It is very moral in its writing. Asking the neighbor lady over was hitting us over the head with how awful Walt is. He sends an elderly, frail lady to walk into a Hornet's nest on his behalf for a lie. The show is clearly making it fucking obvious how bad Walt actually is.

He may have sent the lady over his house, but it's pretty obvious she wouldn't be killed (I guess Gus wants to avoid a potential mess) and you can see and hear that Walt is relieved when she calls him, like "Thank god, she's okay", it's like he's in full paranoid mode.

 

[Farooq]

I keep watching this scene over and over.

http://www.amctv.com/breaking-bad/videos/breaking-bad-talked-about-scenes-episode-413-hector-has-a-surprise-for-gus

Gus walking to the nursing home, the music by Apparat. It's so powerful. The unflinching stare of Gus in the car. The shot of him walking to the nursing home with the camera behind him and a path of stones in front of him. The shot of his face with the path of stones behind him.

It may be just 10-15 seconds, but it is so good. I just keep looping it over and over.

 

[maharg]

3 things:

- Lily of the Valley is a deadly poison. It's not lose your lunch and then you're ok, it kills people. And anything that can bring you to the brink of death can teeter you over. The dose Walt got into Brock brought him there and no amount of precision on Walt's part can have guaranteed the kid's life.
- That Walt has attachments to people in his life and works to protect them as well as himself does not mean he has a conscience, or that he is a good person.
- I don't believe in black and white, and I don't think I'm perfect or perfectly moral. But sometimes someone gets so fucking grey calling them white (har har, Walter White) is just being ridiculous. Walt is there now.

It's not about being high and mighty anymore. Walt is low low low scum now. There are no two ways about this.

 

[THE-Pink-Dagger]

I keep watching this scene over and over.

http://www.amctv.com/breaking-bad/videos/breaking-bad-talked-about-scenes-episode-413-hector-has-a-surprise-for-gus

Gus walking to the nursing home, the music by Apparat. It's so powerful. The unflinching stare of Gus in the car. The shot of him walking to the nursing home with the camera behind him and a path of stones in front of him. The shot of his face with the path of stones behind him.

It may be just 10-15 seconds, but it is so good. I just keep looping it over and over.

I think that the music reaches its peak when we have the frontal shot on Gus walking towards the nursing home, so powerful.

 

[Al-ibn Kermit]

I don't think this show is ever going to be about showing Walt as completely bad, it's about showing him go from good to very gray. If he goes outright evil, then the audience has no more reason to sympathize with him and won't care about him.

Walt and Jesse have always looked very good compared to any of the "bad" guys on this show.

 

[MorisUkunRasik]

The creator has said he wants to turn Walt into Scarface. I don't think Scarface was a morally good character.


Walt is just starting.

Episode one he is an average family man. Then he makes illegal drugs to help his family, many would find that morally wrong. Slowly throughout the series the writers are turning fans against Walt which is really fascinating to witness. We're seeing how far some are willing to suspend morals to continue to root for Walt. I still like him as a character and I love seeing him take on others and succeed. But from an objective stand point, he's hardly a "good guy" anymore.

 

[MickeyKnox]

The Terminator moment almost ruined it for me but the payoff from Walt's open casket shot and the complete assimilation of the Heisenberg persona was just delicious.

Now I'm torn on whether I want the final season to be about Jesse's redemption and Heisenberg's downfall or about Heisenberg causing more principal characters to die and walking away from it all alive and free giving us one of the all time great "the bad guy wins" endings.

 

[BocoDragon]

No, you're wrong. The show is called "breaking bad" and it's about Walt. He is clearly bad. It says so in the title of the show. "Bad" is a moral quality. The show is anything BUT amoral.

It is very moral in its writing. Asking the neighbor lady over was hitting us over the head with how awful Walt is. He sends an elderly, frail lady to walk into a Hornet's nest on his behalf for a lie. The show is clearly making it fucking obvious how bad Walt actually is.

Disagree.

In fact, at many points I think it's mocked the simplistic morality of Hank or Skylar. Recently it mocked the simplistic morality of Tom Beneke.

"Breaking Bad" implies a bad path.... From the beginning of getting into meth and lies, no one has ever questioned whether Walt is on a "bad path"... but the necessity of each crisis situation has maintained a rational motivation. Given the same circumstances, many of us might do what Walt did in his situation..

I have no doubt that Breaking Bad is moving Walt from a family character into a Scarface "badguy" character... but nowhere in that did they ever imply he made a "stupid", "impulsive", "emotional" or "greedy" choice that led him along that path. He was not a wannabe player. It was all in rational defense of his family's safety.

The beauty of this show is that we are discussing our own morality right now.

The creator has said he wants to turn Walt into Scarface. I don't think Scarface was a morally good character.


Walt is just starting.

Episode one he is an average family man. Then he makes illegal drugs to help his family, many would find that morally wrong. Slowly throughout the series the writers are turning fans against Walt which is really fascinating to witness. We're seeing how far some are willing to suspend morals to continue to root for Walt. I still like him as a character and I love seeing him take on others and succeed. But from an objective stand point, he's hardly a "good guy" anymore.

Agree completely... but he is showing how a good guy would "rationally" become a bad guy.... not how a good guy would greedily, stupidly, foolishly become a bad guy, as in so many simplistic narratives (ie Scarface itself, or Revenge of the Sith)

 

[Black Mamba]

He may have sent the lady over his house, but it's pretty obvious she wouldn't be killed (I guess Gus wants to avoid a potential mess) and you can see and hear that Walt is relieved when she calls him, like "Thank god, she's okay", it's like he's in full paranoid mode.

uhh...obvious she wouldn't be killed? Why? Gus promised to kill his family if he got involved. He got involved. Wouldn't a reasonable person think anyone coming into the house with a key is family and would be killed?

Did Walt want her to die? No. Would he have felt bad? Yes. Is he still a bad person for doing it. Without a shadow of a doubt.

You guys and you're justifications are ridiculous. Just look at the guy up there who said Brock had a "small chance" of dying when Jesse said he nearly died.


Let me state what others have stated. He poisoned a child nearly to death in order to set up a very risky plan in order to kill a bunch of people who wanted to kill him because of the stupid mistakes he made. He has his reasons, but that does not justify him doing it.

 

[maharg]

Incidentally, I actually really love that this show has somehow convinced people Walt is a good person even through all of this. That is an achievement of storytelling.

And before someone comes in with the tired "well if you hate Walt so much, why do you watch the show?", I watch the show because seeing people fall can be entertaining. And Breaking Bad has done a great job of making it entertaining, even ignoring the meta of people denying his guilt.

From the beginning of getting into meth and lies, no one has ever questioned whether Walt is on a "bad path"...

Just to clarify, people definitely have. There's a post in this thread that said outright that being a brilliant chemist in New Mexico, the obvious and right thing to do was become a meth dealer to support his family.

 

[BocoDragon]

uhh...obvious she wouldn't be killed? Why? Gus promised to kill his family if he got involved. He got involved. Wouldn't a reasonable person think anyone coming into the house with a key is family and would be killed?

Did Walt want her to die? No. Would he have felt bad? Yes. Is he still a bad person for doing it. Without a shadow of a doubt.

You guys and you're justifications are ridiculous. Just look at the guy up there who said Brock had a "small chance" of dying when Jesse said he nearly died.


Let me state what others have stated. He poisoned a child nearly to death in order to set up a very risky plan in order to kill a bunch of people who wanted to kill him because of the stupid mistakes he made. He has his reasons, but that does not justify him doing it.

I think what you say is fair.

That's your moral conviction when faced with the narrative of the show.

But your conclusions are not contained within the narrative itself.

 

[joshcryer]

And before someone comes in with the tired "well if you hate Walt so much, why do you watch the show?", I watch the show because seeing people fall can be entertaining. And Breaking Bad has done a great job of making it entertaining, even ignoring the meta of people denying his guilt.

That's why I liked Sopranos. But we didn't get the end. They pretended that everyone rooted for Tony, when in fact a lot of people (and most of my friends) despised him. Walt already went into despicable territory by season 2 for me. (Season 1 he was still redeemable, even justifying killing that guy by making a list.)

I watch to see how it ends up and to see if they can pull out a remotely good ending for any of the characters. I don't see it happening.

 

[Jexemad]

Dat fuckin' finale!! Thank god I didn't see the spoiler pic. On the other hand, I read the theory about the plant, so by the end of the ep I knew it was him.

On the plus side, we have Mike for next season ^^

 

[FantasticMrFoxdie]

He may have sent the lady over his house, but it's pretty obvious she wouldn't be killed (I guess Gus wants to avoid a potential mess) and you can see and hear that Walt is relieved when she calls him, like "Thank god, she's okay", it's like he's in full paranoid mode.

He does the same when he finds out Brock survived all well.

On another note, that ending scene that focuses on the Pollos Hermanos is a really interesting contrast to Gus' relationship with his 'hermano'. And It seems like Walt and Jesses roles have reversed. Walt is the business, Jesse is the cook.

 

[THE-Pink-Dagger]

uhh...obvious she wouldn't be killed? Why? Gus promised to kill his family if he got involved. He got involved. Wouldn't a reasonable person think anyone coming into the house with a key is family and would be killed?

Did Walt want her to die? No. Would he have felt bad? Yes. Is he still a bad person for doing it. Without a shadow of a doubt.

You guys and you're justifications are ridiculous. Just look at the guy up there who said Brock had a "small chance" of dying when Jesse said he nearly died.


Let me state what others have stated. He poisoned a child nearly to death in order to set up a very risky plan in order to kill a bunch of people who wanted to kill him because of the stupid mistakes he made. He has his reasons, but that does not justify him doing it.

Ridiculous?!!!! I hardly think so, we have different points of view here, this was a cold move right there, but that's also part of the paranoia, I think he's just at times not really conscious of the implications and consequences of what he's doing.

 

[BocoDragon]

Incidentally, I actually really love that this show has somehow convinced people Walt is a good person even through all of this. That is an achievement of storytelling.

And before someone comes in with the tired "well if you hate Walt so much, why do you watch the show?", I watch the show because seeing people fall can be entertaining. And Breaking Bad has done a great job of making it entertaining, even ignoring the meta of people denying his guilt.

I would describe it differently... but in the end, we are appreciative of the same "morality experiment" that is this show.

 

[maharg]

Oh, and to throw fuel on the fire:

Vic Mackey is a better person than Walter White.

He does the same when he finds out Brock survived all well.

If you wanted to go the full psychopath route (something I don't necessarily subscribe to, I think Walt deserves do own his badness), this could easily be him being glad that his plans didn't result in messy consequences for him. A woman being shot in his house would be problematic, and Jesse would probably be less useful and/or more suspicious if Brock actually died.

 

[overcast]

Terrific finale for a great season..

but I REALLY did not like that shot of Gus walking out. It was completely ridiculous and cringe worthy. I loved the hell out of it otherwise. Gus screaming before the bomb went off was definitely a good way to end him.

"I won".

 

[markot]

Oh, and to throw fuel on the fire:

Vic Mackey is a better person than Walter White.

I thought 'Michael Vick' for a sec and got mad >_<

 

[Exclamation-One]

oh yeah also Walt send his innocent next door neighbor into harms way so he could retrieve some money so he could bribe someone

man isn't he so sweet and for-the-family-ish?

Come on, I need MOAR hilarious blubbering defenses of the man, it's too great

You need to get off your high horse. Yes, Walt has become a man with almost no redeeming qualities. He's become completely deplorable. A man who deserves to suffer for the pain he has inflicted on others.

But you know what? Sometimes it's fun to root for bad people.

Take you for instance. In spite of the bannings, you were one of my favorite mods.

 

[MorisUkunRasik]

The Gus walking out scene was a bit action movie-esq


Would have preferred if the nurses ran into the room and the camera pans into the doorway, the view is obstructed by the backs of the nurses, then both nurses gasp and grab their faces, one stays, struck still from what she's seeing and the other runs out of the room, revealing Gus trying to crawl towards the exit with no legs and then collapsing.

 

[NaughtyCalibur]

Just watched it. I couldn't help but giggle like a school girl as the episode played out exactly like I imagined it would. I'm also glad that it didn't end on Hank seeing Walt on Gus' laptop or some shit; not because that wouldn't be awesome, but because I don't think my heart could take that kind of a cliff hanger haha.

And LOL @ people still defending Walt's actions. I remember just a week ago many of you were all, "Walt poisoning a small child goes against his whole character -- HE'S NOT A MONSTER!" and then when it's revealed to be true in the finale a lot of those same people are going, "oh well, you know what, now that I think about it it seems completely reasonable and justified."

This only further enforces how well this show is written and acted. It makes some people's heads all foggy.

 

[markot]

Hm, I think the Gus bit was just to show abit more of his character and give him a fitting farewell, his total control, and then he dropped.

 

[Black Mamba]

Disagree.

In fact, at many points I think it's mocked the simplistic morality of Hank or Skylar. Recently it mocked the simplistic morality of Tom Beneke.

"Breaking Bad" implies a bad path.... From the beginning of getting into meth and lies, no one has ever questioned whether Walt is on a "bad path"... but the necessity of each crisis situation has maintained a rational motivation. Given the same circumstances, many of us might do what Walt did in his situation..

I have no doubt that Breaking Bad is moving Walt from a family character into a Scarface "badguy" character... but nowhere in that did they ever imply he made a "stupid", "impulsive", "emotional" or "greedy" choice that led him along that path. He was not a wannabe player. It was all in rational defense of his family's safety.

The beauty of this show is that we are discussing our own morality right now.

1. Not taking the medical treatment money from his friends - emotional

2. accepting Gus's offer after he made enough money to provide for his family - greedy

3. Demanding Jesse not sell blue stuff - greedy and emotional

4. Telling Hank that Gale wasn't Heisenberg - emotional and stupid

5. Not heeding Jesse's advice in box cutter than they were safe because they have no other Cook. Everything in season 4 with Jesse and Gus reinforced this fact - stupid

6. Killing those 2 dealers at the end of season 3 - impulsive

Pretty much everything Walt did in season 4 up until the finale was fucking stupid, too, except diverting Hank just enough.



So no, you're dead wrong here too. There are 2 things you're missing in your claim of rationality and what we would do in his situation.

1. One of the main themes of the show is that Walt is not powerless and stuck in a bad situation, but rather that he is responsible for every action he takes and the consequences of those actions are his and his alone. He has a lot of power and chooses this path continually. Vince Gilligan has gone so far in the past to say he doesn't want people to think he's a product of crappy circumstances. Missing this point is kind of a big deal, IMO.

2. What we would do in this situation is one of the themes of the show. The point of taking a Joe Schmoe and turning him into Scarface is asking us, the viewer, if we could break bad like Walt.

Perhaps what you've conflated are the notion of morality (what is bad and good) and the notion of inherit goodness (are we inherently good or bad). That is, Vince Gilligan is showing us Walt is clearly bad, very fucking bad, but he's asking usis he bad because Walter White is bad or do we all naturally have the capacity to be bad?

 

[BocoDragon]

Just to clarify, people definitely have. There's a post in this thread that said outright that being a brilliant chemist in New Mexico, the obvious and right thing to do was become a meth dealer to support his family.

I am one of those people.

Meth cooking was a dark, illegal, dangerious path... and Walt circa season 1 knew it! hence "Breaking Bad".... but that never implied he was evil, or on a path to being Darth Vader.

 

[Black Mamba]

Ridiculous?!!!! I hardly think so, we have different points of view here, this was a cold move right there, but that's also part of the paranoia, I think he's just at times not really conscious of the implications and consequences of what he's doing.

Then why did he feel relieved?

Meth cooking was a dark, illegal, dangerious path... and Walt circa season 1 knew it! hence "Breaking Bad".... but that never implied he was evil, or on a path to being Darth Vader.

No one used the word "evil." That has a different connotation, like the capacity not to feel compassion.

Being bad and being evil are nowhere near the same thing.


edit: I just want to clarify, that Walt is bad isn't a bad thing for the show. In fact, I think it's very good. Look at the Sopranos. Marvelous show and the main character was clearly bad.

I just think you're cheating yourself from the major themes of the show if you don't accept Walt is bad, regardless if you want to root for or against him (and either are okay).

 

[maharg]

Another thing that's really interesting to me is the scene at the end with Walt and Jesse on the roof of the parking garage.

Jesse barely in control of his emotions, full of doubt about whether or not what they did was right (as after Gale as well). His involvement, in the end, was minimal this time, but the impact on his psyche still large.

Walt reassuring, saying all the right things but not really expressing much emotion. When Jesse is gone, he looks satisfied, then calls Skylar to say "I won." Then he expresses something that looks like how I feel after finishing a hard part in a video game. And he's the one who set the bomb and poisoned the kid.

I am one of those people.

Meth cooking was a dark, illegal, dangerious path... and Walt circa season 1 knew it! hence "Breaking Bad".... but that never implied he was evil, or on a path to being Darth Vader.

Either I'm misunderstanding you or you're misunderstanding me? The post in question was saying it wasn't dark, illegal, or dangerous, but natural and good.

 

[Black Mamba]

Another thing that's really interesting to me is the scene at the end with Walt and Jesse on the roof of the parking garage.

Jesse barely in control of his emotions, full of doubt about whether or not what they did was right (as after Gale as well). His involvement was minimal, but the impact on his psyche still large.

Walt reassuring, saying all the right things but not really expressing much emotion. When Jesse is gone, he looks satisfied, then calls Skylar to say "I won." Then he expresses something that looks like how I feel after finishing a hard part in a video game. And he's the one who set the bomb and poisoned the kid.

During that scene I was saying to myself "hug jesse. dude, hug him. he needs that right now." But Walt offers like a cold handshake as two people who completed a business deal would.

Walt is so oblivious to Jesse's needs because he's so consumed with his own.

 

[maharg]

During that scene I was saying to myself "hug jesse. dude, hug him. he needs that right now." But Walt offers like a cold handshake as two people who completed a business deal would.

Walt is so oblivious to Jesse's needs because he's so consumed with his own.

I kind of feel like that'd be a bit like a Voldemort hug, to be honest.

 

[Farooq]

Another thing that's really interesting to me is the scene at the end with Walt and Jesse on the roof of the parking garage.

Jesse barely in control of his emotions, full of doubt about whether or not what they did was right (as after Gale as well). His involvement, in the end, was minimal this time, but the impact on his psyche still large.

Walt reassuring, saying all the right things but not really expressing much emotion. When Jesse is gone, he looks satisfied, then calls Skylar to say "I won." Then he expresses something that looks like how I feel after finishing a hard part in a video game. And he's the one who set the bomb and poisoned the kid.

Yea he is definitely proud of himself. I mean that is what I got out of it.

 

[THE-Pink-Dagger]

Hm, I think the Gus bit was just to show abit more of his character and give him a fitting farewell, his total control, and then he dropped.

Of course, it's also ironic and some of the dark humor that BB is famous for. I just loved it even though I thought it looked ridiculous on the photo. It just shows one last time how badass Gus really is.

I totally expected as well Walt to hug Jesse as well. Btw, the killing of the two dealers in Season 3 was not impulsive, Walt was saving Jesse's life.

 

[FantasticMrFoxdie]

If you wanted to go the full psychopath route (something I don't necessarily subscribe to, I think Walt deserves do own his badness), this could easily be him being glad that his plans didn't result in messy consequences for him. A woman being shot in his house would be problematic, and Jesse would probably be less useful and/or more suspicious if Brock actually died.

True, but I think Gilligan and Co. are intentionally showing him- showing some form of remorse or resentment, as little as it may be though. That in itself seems to be why the community is considerably split on thinking Walt is either 'good/bad' or a likeable character. Kudos to the writers though for creating such thought-provoking discussions. That in itself is art.


Sigh. So begins the wait for next year.

 

[blame space]

season 5 starts next week right?

right?

 

[Exclamation-One]

MIKE IS FUTURE WALT CONFIRMED BY VINCE GILLIGAN

Getting back to Walt's cancer, you're not going to tell me if it's back or not, and I don't want to know. But Bryan was coughing an awful lot in the last few episodes, which brings to mind the fact that much earlier in the season, Mike was coughing a lot for a while. I've been trained watching years of TV that there's no such thing as a coincidental cough. Was this a coincidental cough?

(Laughs)

Did Jonathan Banks just have a cold at the start of production?

(Laughs) You know what? I don't know quite how to answer that. I hate to sound coy, but sometimes there are coincidences and other times there aren't. I have to let that one pass unremarked, so as not to give too much away.

 

[BocoDragon]

1. Not taking the medical treatment money from his friends - emotional

2. accepting Gus's offer after he made enough money to provide for his family - greedy

3. Demanding Jesse not sell blue stuff - greedy and emotional

4. Telling Hank that Gale wasn't Heisenberg - emotional and stupid

5. Not heeding Jesse's advice in box cutter than they were safe because they have no other Cook. Everything in season 4 with Jesse and Gus reinforced this fact - stupid

6. Killing those 2 dealers at the end of season 3 - impulsive

Pretty much everything Walt did in season 4 up until the finale was fucking stupid, too, except diverting Hank just enough.



So no, you're dead wrong here too. There are 2 things you're missing in your claim of rationality and what we would do in his situation.

1. One of the main themes of the show is that Walt is not powerless and stuck in a bad situation, but rather that he is responsible for every action he takes and the consequences of those actions are his and his alone. He has a lot of power and chooses this path continually. Vince Gilligan has gone so far in the past to say he doesn't want people to think he's a product of crappy circumstances. Missing this point is kind of a big deal, IMO.

2. What we would do in this situation is one of the themes of the show. The point of taking a Joe Schmoe and turning him into Scarface is asking us, the viewer, if we could break bad like Walt.

Perhaps what you've conflated are the notion of morality (what is bad and good) and the notion of inherit goodness (are we inherently good or bad). That is, Vince Gilligan is showing us Walt is clearly bad, very fucking bad, but he's asking usis he bad because Walter White is bad or do we all naturally have the capacity to be bad?

I just think you're cheating yourself from the major themes of the show if you don't accept Walt is bad, regardless if you want to root for or against him (and either are okay).

And I think you're cheating yourself from the major themes of the show if you don't recognize the essential amorality of the show, and how it necessitates decisions that lead one "bad" through circumstances where it would be entirely rational to do just the same.

Really, we are describing the same show. The same slide from normalcy into extremity. While you describe a show where a good guy makes bad decisions and becomes a bad guy, I am describing a show where a good guy is forced through circumstances into rationally becoming a"bad guy" (in quotes in my version). In the end, you can condemn him, but I can't, and it's entirely due to our own personal character.

Let's step back and admire that this show has sparked a debate like that

 

[Deleted member 18827]

Fucking amazing. I'm still shaking.

I don't want more episodes that was a perfect end.

 

[Black Mamba]

True, but I think Gilligan and Co. are intentionally showing him- showing some form of remorse or resentment, as little as it may be though. That in itself seems to be why the community is considerably split on thinking Walt is either 'good/bad' or a likeable character. Kudos to the writers though for creating such thought-provoking discussions. That in itself is art.


Sigh. So begins the wait for next year.

But that doesn't make sense. Showing remorse doesn't indicate being good.

You can feel remorse for doing bad things. That doesn't make them no longer bad.

 

[ZoddGutts]

Wonder how Mike is going to react to this. Will he go after Walt? Or just say fuck it and let it go since he no longer has a boss. Jesse did help him when he got shot so he does sorta owe him one.

 

[THE-Pink-Dagger]

True, but I think Gilligan and Co. are intentionally showing him- showing some form of remorse or resentment, as little as it may be though. That in itself seems to be why the community is considerably split on thinking Walt is either 'good/bad' or a likeable character. Kudos to the writers though for creating such thought-provoking discussions. That in itself is art.


Sigh. So begins the wait for next year.

It is truly remarkable indeed, but I've liked Walt just the same from Season 1 through to Season 4. I think that there's a fascination sometimes for bad characters, at least for me. I think it's too easy to be good, or to show a good character, I must say I sometimes find evil kind of attractive, even if I force myself to be good.

Interesting debate to have here.

 

[StuBurns]

I wasn't on the edge of my seat at all, but it was an enjoyable ending. Can't wait to see where they take the show next season.

 

[FantasticMrFoxdie]

During that scene I was saying to myself "hug jesse. dude, hug him. he needs that right now." But Walt offers like a cold handshake as two people who completed a business deal would.

Walt is so oblivious to Jesse's needs because he's so consumed with his own.

Same thing I thought. Its amazing how i'm sure many of us felt that tension lingering in the air still. I think thats also why it was an important/interesting shot for them to follow this with the Pollos Hermanos shot.

They could have atleast just:

EDIT: Breaking Bad - The Final Season |OT| of Heisenberg is the New Walt
((((

EDIT EDIT: Breaking Bad - The Final Season: Part 1 |OT| of Heisenberg is the New Walt
;_;

 

[BocoDragon]

Either I'm misunderstanding you or you're misunderstanding me? The post in question was saying it wasn't dark, illegal, or dangerous, but natural and good.

I'm saying I empathize with people who think it was a rational decision.

But those who think it was "a strange, illegal path" include everyone in this thread and in the narrative of the story. Of course it is.

In short, you can "Break Bad" for rational reasons. Those who say the title of the show implicates Walt as a bad guy are incorrect, IMO. It was a crazy path, no doubt... but perhaps good men can go down crazy paths without it meaning they are horrible people.

 

[harSon]

Ok, so let's get this straight. In this episode (and JUST this episode) Walt:

- Had his nice, friendly, completely innocent neighbour walk into his house, which he suspected had people inside who wanted to kill him and might not wait to see who was opening the door before killing them.
- Brought a bomb into a hospital.
- Brought said bomb also into a nursing home, and then blew up a room in it, without regard for the other people in the nursing home.
- Poisoned a child with something that left him on the edge of death.
- Lied to his 'partner' and the only person on the planet who seems to still think he's anything but a cold calculating asshole and isn't related to him by blood. And not in a small way, either. In a "I just about killed the kid you're starting to feel like a father to, just to coerce you into killing someone who never actually did anything to you."

Can we consider the question of Walt's lack of conscience a closed book now? PLEASE? The guy will do *anything* to get his way, without regard for innocents in the way.




This is a joke post, right?

You're over complicating things. People do horrible things to preserve their own self interests, end of story.

 

[demolitio]

Wonder how Mike is going to react to this. Will he go after Walt? Or just say fuck and let it go since he no longer has a boss. Jesse did help him when he got shot so he does sorta owe him one.

I figure Mike will instigate something between Walt and Jesse, whether has some information or not. Jesse liked Mike so it'd be an interesting conflict.

I'm not sure I believe that'll happen but you never know with this show, lol.

 

[Submarino Conversível]

That fucking scene, man... I played back and noticed the nurse's reaction when she realizes the situation.